New MGX-21 died while riding, will not start after

[John A]

After seeing what goes on at some dealerships in the shop from the inside,  the people they hire to do new bike assembly make me cringe.  It seems fast sloppy work is the norm

[not-fishing]

Thanks for the report Fallguy.

I have an '07 Griso and '03 Lemans that I've increased the size of the starter solenoid wire on, after listening to Kiwi Roy and checking the resistance of the wire I decided it was a good thing to do.  It appears it's something the Guzzi Engineers think doesn't need to be done.

Also I cleaned all the grounds at the block & frame.  I want those grounds to show as few ohms as possible.  Getting rid of the paint under the connection and oxidized metal has helped.

Also I'll stay away from Euro Cycles.  Decades ago a Carpenter I used to work with always said cheap is the most expensive way to go.

Mark

[fallguy]

No, we did not fix the ground at the same time. It was just that small wire.

Donation made.

[pebra]

Hi Fallguy,
can't recall anyone wishing you welcome, so welcome to this most excellent forum!
I foremost hope you'll have a long and prosperous relationship with your MGX, and also that we'll see you again on Wildguzzi under more cheery circumstances! 

[Tom H]

Hi Fallguy,
can't recall anyone wishing you welcome, so welcome to this most excellent forum!
I foremost hope you'll have a long and prosperous relationship with your MGX, and also that we'll see you again on Wildguzzi under more cheery circumstances! 

 

Tom

[fallguy]

Well.... drove to work yesterday, no problems. Backed out of the driveway today, and halfway down it died again. Same exact thing. Turn the key, nothing. No lights, no starting, nothing. I hate to do it, but looks like I may be soldering the connection, so that it doesn't pop off again. Annoying, but this too will pass.

Thanks for the welcome!

[mhershon]

Take deep breaths, fallguy. You'll have the bike a long time and this agony will be over soon. Some time ago, I thought I wanted to buy a Royal Enfield, a single. Euro Cycles had by far the lowest price. It was winter, so I asked them if they'd hold one if I paid for it. I'd pick it up in the spring when I could ride it home to Denver. I got a terrific runaround when I asked them what the bike would cost, and if I'd need to pay sales tax or Nevada license fees. I never found out any of that. Sales guys wouldn't return calls or emails. I got the worst feeling from those guys, both at the Vegas store and the one in Windsor, California. It'll take you a while but you'll erase any evidence that they ever touched your new bike. And good riddance.

[LowRyter]

Well.... drove to work yesterday, no problems. Backed out of the driveway today, and halfway down it died again. Same exact thing. Turn the key, nothing. No lights, no starting, nothing. I hate to do it, but looks like I may be soldering the connection, so that it doesn't pop off again. Annoying, but this too will pass.

Thanks for the welcome!

Did you ever check the ground to the battery?  Or just do a quick a dirty cable from the negative battery terminal to a bolt on the engine or transmission?   Guzzis are prone to bad grounds when fighting electrical gremlins.

[TN Mark]

Fallguy,

     Well, it sucks if that same wire came loose again. Instead of soldering it on I'd be tempted to drill a small hole on that spade connector. Either for a wrap of safety wire or an M2 bolt and locknut with Locktite. You'll likely have to remove the starter assembly for any of that though. Once the starter is removed you should be able to fully verify the battery ground wire at its engine/frame connection as well. 
     This too shall pass and in the end, all will be well.

[Moparnut72]

Thanks for the report Fallguy.

I have an '07 Griso and '03 Lemans that I've increased the size of the starter solenoid wire on, after listening to Kiwi Roy and checking the resistance of the wire I decided it was a good thing to do.  It appears it's something the Guzzi Engineers think doesn't need to be done.

Also I cleaned all the grounds at the block & frame.  I want those grounds to show as few ohms as possible.  Getting rid of the paint under the connection and oxidized metal has helped.

Also I'll stay away from Euro Cycles.  Decades ago a Carpenter I used to work with always said cheap is the most expensive way to go.

Where do you go for dealer support? Elk Grove Motorsports?
kk

Mark

[fallguy]

TN Mark, good idea. I'll just take off the starter, and go from there. Se what's what. And as you, and others have said, make sure that the battery ground wire is secure. Make sure all connections are secure and clean.

Moparnut72, thanks for quoting that, I missed it. For not-fishing; Murfreesboro is the closest for me. 147 miles from my house in Knoxville.

This will pass, I do know it. I am not going to give up on it, for blame Guzzi that bad. Its a connector, not the end of the world. My new wind shield comes in tomorrow, and last night I bought the carbon fiber passenger seat cover. Ready to ride reliably! Hoping to have the time by Wednesday, we've got a date night setup. Finally got a sitter, would rather ride than drive.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Fallguy, this time could you take a picture of the lug that's giving problems, I suspect it may be the main positive feed

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Entire.gif
Concentrate on items
28 - Startup Relay
29 - Starter
30 - Main Fuses
31 - Battery
See the wire identified as Vi, between 28 and 29 that should be capable of handling 40 Amps for a second or two i.e. at least the equivalent of American 18 gauge.

Once again this is the only schematic I have to look at, yours may be a slightly different arrangement.
I don't have a 1400 to look at but I could skip over to our local dealer and see if they have one

I am really puzzled that you lose the dash lights, even if Vi falls off it's only the trigger wire.

The Black wire N for Negro terminates behind the starter I think, of course it must be impeccable

The two fuses at 30 and most of those at 62 must be at full battery Voltage without the key On and the rest should be the same with key On
Do the 2 fuses item 30 really get their power direct from the battery positive terminal as shown I couldn't quite make this out in the photo you posted.
What does that large black dot represent?
Better pictures please.

[SportsterDoc]

Fallguy, this time could you take a picture of the lug that's giving problems, I suspect it may be the main positive feed>

Could be very helpful.

If it is the same issue (unplugged) make sure there is slack on the cable.

A 6.3 mm / 0.250 in spade connector should have specifications for insertion/withdrawal force.

Part of that force comes from the dimple on the male interlocking with a recess (different designs) on the female...more than the rolled-over edges on the female.

It may vary with manufacturers, there there is an example on page 8 of this link:

https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=2-1773700-5TerminalAndSplicesSelection&DocType=DS&DocLang=English&s_cid=1046

Basically, the withdrawal force should be close to pulling the trigger on a quality revolver.

If it feels less, then first try inverting the connection.
If that does not work, then replace the female.
If that does not work, then increasing the dimple on the male may make a difference, although difficult while mounted on starter.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Basically, the withdrawal force should be close to pulling the trigger on a quality revolver.
 

Don't shoot the bike just yet we may be able to save it LOL

[Zoom Zoom]

Just to add a thought to the last couple posts: If you are able, verify the wire(s) in question aren't getting pulled on when the shift linkage is moving, thereby causing stress on a connection. Maybe something was routed wrong or came loose from a retaining clip.

I would hate to see you take your honey out only to experience another failure. She might appreciate it less than you.

John Henry

[fallguy]

It appears I may have to eat some crow, after saying it was not the negative battery cable. I took off the side panels, and checked the wire that we thought was the problem. It was still attached. I could finally see where the negative battery cable was grounded to, which is the black wire there in question. On top of the first pic with the AF letters on it. You may be able to see that it was a little loose. I put about a full turn on it, and is much tighter. Needs about another quarter turn, but just couldn't get it, started to strip, It is in a very awkward position, and didnt have the exact took for it. Put back on the starter, and it worked as normal.

Last time I may have inadvertently knocked off that little 12v cable there, and just honed in on it. When if I took off the starter, maybe would have seen that as well. Because the 12v was still attached pretty well. The entire thing is pretty snug back there, messing with it may have pushed the negative cable for better contact. While I had it off, I did trace other wires, check other connections, didnt see any other problems.

I rode around my neighborhood for about 10 mins, shifting as many times as possible. Then let it idle in the driveway for about 30 minutes. Just to see if it would vibrate loose or die as it did yesterday. It did not. Again, it *appears* to be fixed. I am going to try and take it to get the recall brake issue fixed, and have them torque down on that bolt to get it as tight as possible.

A few kept saying battery connection (the pos was very secure), and I initially thought that as well. But when that 12v cable was off, I stopped looking. I dont mind admitting when wrong, and it appears I was. But again thanks to those for suggestions, and in the future I will look more broadly and keep double checking even if I think something is fixed. Going to ride it to work the next two days before date night, see what happens. Still nervous about it, but going to chance it. I feel like that was it, just needs a little more tightening. AND my windshield, and phone mount came in today too! All in all, not a bad day.

[oldbike54]

  A wise man knows when he is wrong .

 Or something like that , I think Will Rogers said it , or maybe Confucius .

 Abe Lincoln ? Anyway , someone said it 

 Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Most electrical problems are simple to fix. The issue is finding what *needs* to be fixed. 

Then let it idle in the driveway for about 30 minutes.

I would never do that without at least a box fan blowing on it. <shrug>

[Kiwi_Roy]

Thats great news.
Thanks for the additional pictures.
I think others have also found a bad ground so don't feel bad, the main thing is you can start enjoying it.
Is that black wire connected to the chassis, it should be attached to a gearbox bolt IMHO, the largest current is to the starter so it should have a direct return to the battery.

Welcome to the forum.

[bmc5733946]

Just so everybody understands, no one in any dealership I am familiar with would be checking any of these things at new bike set up unless they knew there was a consistent problem with it. If I knew these bikes had a consistent problem with loose grounds I would have a look. Dealers need to rely on the maufacturer to provide a basically assembled unit, some minor assembly may be due to shipping conditions, a wheel, handlebars or something, main battery connections etc. But ground cable at frame or engine connection problems are quite unlikely. So as far as I am concerned this is a Guzzi problem not a dealer set up problem.

Brian

[Daleroso]

You're right but I will tell you that any existing issue from the mfg will be compounded by Eurocycles & if there isn't one it's a lottery to discover the one(s) they create.

Glad you have seem to have sorted it out fallguy👏. Enjoy your MGX!

[LowRyter]

Moto Guzzi, Making riders into Mechanics Electricians since 1921   

[Bulldog9]

This is the second (maybe 3rd) time I've heard of this. When I was doing research before buying my MGX, I heard of this. I checked it when I took delivery. Mine was tight, but wonder if this is more common? Maybe the guy who installed the thrust washers on some V7ii's the wrong way was moved over to installing the main power cables on the 1400's? 

Glad you got it sorted and was a simple fix.  FWIW, even though the MGX has a fan on the oil cooler, letting idle for 30min is not a great idea. ENJOY your MGX!

[Cam3512]

Most electrical problems are simple to fix. The issue is finding what *needs* to be fixed.  I would never do that without at least a box fan blowing on it. <shrug>

Yea, don’t let an air cooled motorcycle idle for a half hour!

[rocker59]

Piaggio, Making Guzzi riders into Electricians since 2004   

Fixed it for you...   

[rocker59]

Just so everybody understands, no one in any dealership I am familiar with would be checking any of these things at new bike set up unless they knew there was a consistent problem with it. If I knew these bikes had a consistent problem with loose grounds I would have a look. Dealers need to rely on the maufacturer to provide a basically assembled unit, some minor assembly may be due to shipping conditions, a wheel, handlebars or something, main battery connections etc. But ground cable at frame or engine connection problems are quite unlikely. So as far as I am concerned this is a Guzzi problem not a dealer set up problem.

Brian

Just so everyone understands, If you pay a couple hours labor for "setup" on a new bike, the so called "tech" in the shop had damn well better check simple things like ground cables.

And yes, I've worked at a couple dealerships.

[Luap McKeever]

Just so everyone understands, If you pay a couple hours labor for "setup" on a new bike, the so called "tech" in the shop had damn well better check simple things like ground cables.

And yes, I've worked at a couple dealerships.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Fixed it for you...   

Piaggio, Making Guzzi riders into Electronic techs since 2004

Fixed it for you..

[Vagrant]

it takes less time to pull both ends of both the positive and negative cables clean, lube and snug up than to write about an electrical problem. it's always the first thing to do with ANY electrical issue. car, cycle, house etc.
it only took me 20 years to learn that.

[LowRyter]

Fixed it for you..

We just fix everything around here.