Author Topic: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating  (Read 844 times)

Offline Rasta Ronny

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V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« on: April 05, 2021, 08:53:22 AM »
I bought a 2013 V7 Special in August.  I happily rode until mid December and put it away, hoping for a warm enough day to get out again.  I would occasionally hook up a battery tender but, must have waited too long and my battery drained.  I didn't have a charger so, I tried a trick I saw on a forum to use a power supply to charge the battery.  I was able to get enough charge to the battery to allow the tender to work.  Once it was charged, I pushed the start button but, didn't get anything.  I noticed that my neutral light was not on.  It will come on when I first turn the key and the instrument cluster sweeps but, doesn't stay on.  I shifted up and down and rolled the bike to make sure I was in neutral but, no light.  I tried to start in gear with the side stand up and clutch lever pulled in but, again, nothing.  I double and triple checked that my kill switch is not the issue.  I shorted the starter motor and it will crank the engine.  So, it doesn't seem to be the battery or starter.  I pulled the neutral indicator switch and whether the button is in or out, the light doesn't illuminate.  I tried a second neutral indicator switch and get the same results.  I am not experienced at troubleshooting electrical issues but, am willing to learn and to try.  I have a multimeter and a circuit test light.  I have a few questions.  Should I be worried that using a power supply damaged the ECU?  Would the symptoms I describe suggest an ECU problem?  Would the ECU show a code for the issue I describe?  I don't have a trailer to take the bike to a shop.  Could the ECU be disconnected and taken to a shop to have the codes read?  Would a bad relay cause the symptoms I describe?  I have not tried to swap relays to see if that changes things.  Would a bad side stand switch cause the neutral light to not illuminate?  What would you try next?  And, sorry for the long post but, I want to fully describe the issue.  Thanks for your help!

Offline oldbike54

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2021, 09:02:44 AM »
 A couple of questions so the sparkies can help sort this out .

 What do you mean by power supply ?

 When you jumped across the starter terminals were you using the on board battery , or a remote battery ?

 Dusty
watchdog got rabies , the foreman got the fleas
 everyone concerned about industrial disease .

Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2021, 09:03:09 AM »
First, make sure the battery terminals are clean and tight. clean the ground cable where it goes to the back of the engine too. remove battery. always Neg. comes off first and goes back on last. take it to the auto parts store and have it load tested. I'd bet it's dead.
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Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2021, 09:09:53 AM »
I touched a screwdriver from one lead to the other on the starter motor and it turned over.  By power supply, I mean a cord to a printer/toy that charges batteries.  Something that converts 120V to about 6-9 volts.  I'll have to test again on the multimeter to see exactly where it was.    Also, i did take to an Auto parts store and had them charge it up.  Seems to be holding a charge better as the weather is getting warm.  Also, since it turned over the starter motor, I know it at least has enough power to do that.  So, I don't think it's the battery.  But, I have been wrong before.

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2021, 09:09:53 AM »

Offline oldbike54

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2021, 09:22:59 AM »
 Kinda sounds like a bad battery .

 Dusty
watchdog got rabies , the foreman got the fleas
 everyone concerned about industrial disease .

Offline Tkelly

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2021, 09:49:56 AM »
8year old battery?Time for a new one and pick up a charger too.

Offline malik

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2021, 04:21:38 PM »
That no neutral light is a bit of a worry. You know the globe in the dash works, because it lights up with all the other lights on the self test when the ignition is switched on, correct?  You have checked the fuses? Especially the two 30A ones? I would replace each with new ones anyway. Hint - each time you try one thing only and test that before going onto the next, otherwise you'll end up like me - not knowing whether it was a fuse, a relay base, or the side stand switch connector that was the problem. You'll find the connector for the sidestand switch probably behind the LHS side cover, near to or behind the wires going to the starter motor.  In my case, pulling the connector apart & re-joining it didn't work, but spraying contact cleaner in there to clean the connections, may well have.
Note that the neutral sensor (on top of the gearbox cover) has a button on the top, onto which a female spade connector slides. It appears to be held in its place by its rubber boot.
The neutral sensor  connector is found under the RHS side cover, (mine was cable tied to another connector) - can't hurst to take it apart & clean the it. From there it disappears into the loom.
The ECU is usually the last possible thing to think about. Try everything else before getting onto that.
Good luck, keep on at it, & let us know how it goes.
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Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2021, 07:23:23 PM »
Thanks for the advice.  I had an Auto Shop load test the battery.  They said it was good.  The prior owner may have replaced it.  I think I remember him saying he did but, not 100% sure.  The globe in the dash works because it does come on when I turn the ignition on.  I checked the fuses and the 5A fuse closest to the rear wheel is blown.  I replaced and it blew again immediately.  Key was off.  I have bike partially apart.  I am thinking I should put back together and look for any wires touching where they shouldn't etc. 

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2021, 08:12:57 PM »
Make sure it has Gas in it. When a Moto Guzzi sits, the fuel gauge/light often sticks. And it shows fuel in the tank, even after it's evaporated.

SR

Offline oldbike54

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2021, 08:36:21 PM »
Thanks for the advice.  I had an Auto Shop load test the battery.  They said it was good.  The prior owner may have replaced it.  I think I remember him saying he did but, not 100% sure.  The globe in the dash works because it does come on when I turn the ignition on.  I checked the fuses and the 5A fuse closest to the rear wheel is blown.  I replaced and it blew again immediately.  Key was off.  I have bike partially apart.  I am thinking I should put back together and look for any wires touching where they shouldn't etc.

 Kiwi Roy will come along shortly and tell us what that fuse controls , but yes , you have a dead short somewhere .

 Dusty
watchdog got rabies , the foreman got the fleas
 everyone concerned about industrial disease .

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2021, 08:53:20 PM »
And if you've already got your bike taken apart to some degree, it's going to be much easier to chase down a short if you do not reassemble the bike. A volt ohm meter is your friend.

ZZ
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2021, 09:00:32 PM »
A) Stop, daylight running lights, horn (10 A).
B) GPS installation, low / high-beam lights, passing
(15 A).
C) Control unit, engine kill, starter relay, instrument
panel, injection load relay (15 A).
D) (Battery positive) Instrument panel, turn indicators
(5 A).
E) - (Battery positive), MIU G3 Control unit (5A).
F) Main fuse, coil 1 and 2, injector 1 and 2, lambda
1 and 2 (30 A).

What the book says How many 5A

Here's a book------------------for your bike

https://guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/750/V7Stone_Special_Racer_072012_Atelier(GB).pdf
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 09:05:36 PM by guzzisteve »
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Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2021, 09:20:21 PM »
Just because it wasn't mentioned specifically.

Op, when you turn the key on and the instruments do their sweeps, do you hear the fuel pump run?

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Offline tris

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2021, 12:50:37 AM »
Thanks for the advice.  I had an Auto Shop load test the battery.  They said it was good.  The prior owner may have replaced it.  I think I remember him saying he did but, not 100% sure.  The globe in the dash works because it does come on when I turn the ignition on.  I checked the fuses and the 5A fuse closest to the rear wheel is blown.  I replaced and it blew again immediately.  Key was off.  I have bike partially apart.  I am thinking I should put back together and look for any wires touching where they shouldn't etc.

Is this the 5A fuse that feeds the ECU?

Different bike I know,  but my Breva 1100 did something similar and it looked like an ECU fault
I  finally tracked  it down to the speed sensor on the front wheel  was full of water and shorting down to earth.
A close look at everything fed from the fuse might be beneficial. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 12:52:18 AM by tris »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2021, 09:58:50 AM »
First of all I wouldn't worry about your charger damaging the ECU, using a low current wall wort is a good way to revive a dead flat battery, a battery tender doesn't know what to do with it.
The initial flashing of lights and waving needles is strictly the ECU exercising things, it doesn't need any inputs for that. https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif. Look at item 21 called a Pull Up resistor, it's supposed to put 12 Volts on the various switches and sensors, I wonder if there is something wrong there, it also goes to pin 14 of the ECU
You should be able to read 12 Volts at one terminal of the clutch switch.
Question, does the low oil pressure light come on, I don't mean during the light show but with the key On but not started?
The Neutral switch pulls it's ECU input to ground, it may be dependent on one of the other ECU inputs being high e.g. pin 14, if you can find it the switch should be grounded in Neutral
Do you have a side stand switch on that model, it should have a light on the dash as well, check all the interlock devices.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 03:20:46 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2021, 11:58:32 AM »
Thanks for your reassurance about the wall-wort and the ECU.  It was putting off about 14 volts, even though it says only 7 on it.  I was pulling off every 5 minutes or so to see if there was enough charge for the battery tender to work.  But, was worried I might have done some damage.  I'll try to chase down a short.  I am a newbie to electronics and don't have much confidence yet in my abilities but, have often turned to Eric the Car Guy, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_q-UNDJeEBSHqKzAP_8x_A for help with car repair issues.  I'll look for a video on how to chase shorts.  If anyone has any other suggestions, I am open to them.  I also appreciate the service manual.  Thank you all for your help.  Spring is here in PA and it's really hard to not be out riding.  And to answer the question.  I hear what I think is the fuel pump running when I turn on the key but, am not 100% sure.

Offline Tom H

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2021, 12:57:39 PM »
The bike was running fine and you parked it for the winter. Ignoring the battery for the moment. Do you have rats or mice? Have you checked for a chewed on wire? Could be why the fuse keeps blowing?

Did you do any work on it over the winter?

Does the neutral switch wire on the trans have power?

On the starter, you have the small wire for the solenoid. Does it get power when you push the start button?

Tom

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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2021, 06:11:02 PM »
The bike was running fine and you parked it for the winter. Ignoring the battery for the moment. Do you have rats or mice? Have you checked for a chewed on wire? Could be why the fuse keeps blowing?

Did you do any work on it over the winter?

Does the neutral switch wire on the trans have power?

On the starter, you have the small wire for the solenoid. Does it get power when you push the start button?

Tom

Which fuse is blowing I missed that.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2021, 06:41:11 PM »
Which fuse is blowing I missed that.

One of the 5A, specifically the one closest to the rear wheel.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2021, 03:27:16 AM »
One of the 5A, specifically the one closest to the rear wheel.
Thanks Kevin, they would be fuse E then? https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Rasta Ronny, please confirm it's fuse E that's blowing.
Feeds 12V to pin 9 of the ECU and the Pull-up resistor (21), after the resistor it will not blow the fuse.
See if you can find (21), maybe you have a pinched wire there.

If its fuse D blowing we will have to look elsewhere.
Note Fuses D & E are always on so they will normally only draw a milliamp or two otherwise they would drain the battery, come to think of it wasn't that where we started?
Is the bike kept inside or left out in the weather?

 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:49:21 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 12:59:31 AM »
Rasta Ronny, I think you will find you have a short to ground on the Orange/Green wire between fuse E and the Pull-up resistor or the ECU Pin 9, there is normally a small drain on fuse E even when the ignition is Off. You may have the wire pinched somewhere or could be in the resistor itself.
Please confirm it's fuse E that blows.
I notice in 2019 Guzzi moved the Pull-up resistor the the other side of the ignition switch.
For an intermittent fault such as this I always recommend using a high wattage bulb in place of the fuse, the bulb will supply the normal current without lighting but will flash when a short occurs, this is very visual.
72 Eldorado
07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2021, 05:35:09 PM »
Thanks again for the advice.  I am working on the bike again.  It is fuse E.  I did not do any work on the bike after I parked it, until, I couldn't get it to start.  It is kept in an unheated garage.  We did have some traps for mice in the garage but, they never were tripped.  The oil pressure light stays lit once I turn the key on.  I am not getting a voltage reading on the starter where the small female end connects when I push the start button. 

Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2021, 05:46:30 PM »
Kiwi_Roy, I notice a tag line in your posts, "Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921".  I am not an electrician for sure but, as I said, willing to learn.  Along those lines, how do you use a bulb instead of a fuse?  Is it a circuit test light?  Other?  Again, trying to learn.  I will look for issues visual and with an Ohm meter on the wires you suggest and report back. Oh, I'll have to figure out what a Pull up (resistance) is/looks like.

Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2021, 06:34:09 PM »
Another question.  I used a multimeter and with fuse E out, I put one probe on the blue-green wire coming in/out of the clutch switch.  In the wiring diagram link above, it's #2 in the multi-connector below part #7.  I got a reading of 2.8.  It didn't matter if the clutch lever was pulled in, or, if the side stand was up or down.  Does that tell me anything?  Or, help locate which wire the short is in?

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2021, 11:52:50 PM »
Are you still blowing fuses in slot E?
If you have an intermittent short circuit you can blow a lot of fuses before you find where the problem is.
If you have something like an old headlight bulb you can wire it in place of fuse E, it shouldn't light up if everything is normal but if you get a short the lamp will light fully but no fuse gets blown.
As you wiggle the wires you may find the spot where the short is, if the short lifts the light will go out, short it to ground again and the lamp will light, its much easier to find the short if you have a lamp flashing each time it shorts to ground..
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2021, 12:12:10 AM »
Another question.  I used a multimeter and with fuse E out, I put one probe on the blue-green wire coming in/out of the clutch switch.  In the wiring diagram link above, it's #2 in the multi-connector below part #7.  I got a reading of 2.8.  It didn't matter if the clutch lever was pulled in, or, if the side stand was up or down.  Does that tell me anything?  Or, help locate which wire the short is in?
2.8 what? Volts, Ohms, that wire is called the sensor ground, and where did you have the other probe?
I suspect you don't get a signal on the wire to the solenoid because the logic is stopping it.
Just as the clutch switch has a Pull-up resistor the other switch inputs also have the equivalent inside the ECU.
I dot think any of the switches will work if the fuse is blown.
I think item 21 will be a small circuit board but I don't know where it is on the bike.
Anyone out there who knows where this item 21 is, please help us out. Other than that I will look for it on mine tomorrow.
72 Eldorado
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17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Tom H

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2021, 12:37:52 AM »
2.8 what? Volts, Ohms, that wire is called the sensor ground, and where did you have the other probe?
I suspect you don't get a signal on the wire to the solenoid because the logic is stopping it.
Just as the clutch switch has a Pull-up resistor the other switch inputs also have the equivalent inside the ECU.
I dot think any of the switches will work if the fuse is blown.
I think item 21 will be a small circuit board but I don't know where it is on the bike.
Anyone out there who knows where this item 21 is, please help us out. Other than that I will look for it on mine tomorrow.

I had asked about this wire because of the no crank issue. Remember there was/is a bad battery issue. He was able to get it to crank, not start, by jumping from the battery wire at the starter solenoid to the heavy wire on the starter. With no power from the starter switch to the solenoid, I agree that a fuse or relay or the like is the problem.

Still wondering what happened to it while parked? That's why I asked about mice. But then again, if a wire was going to fail, it could have been when he rode it in to the garage the last time, as in last night or last year.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2021, 06:51:43 AM »
I had asked about this wire because of the no crank issue. Remember there was/is a bad battery issue. He was able to get it to crank, not start, by jumping from the battery wire at the starter solenoid to the heavy wire on the starter. With no power from the starter switch to the solenoid, I agree that a fuse or relay or the like is the problem.

Still wondering what happened to it while parked? That's why I asked about mice. But then again, if a wire was going to fail, it could have been when he rode it in to the garage the last time, as in last night or last year.

Tom
I agree with what you are saying, I just approach troubleshooting from a different angle.
I scratched out the different inputs, I think they should all show Voltage on the open switch, they will have the equivalent to the Pull up resistor inside the ECU, it may be dependent on fuse E being intact.
I havent figured out why the clutch switch has a separate pull-up resistor.
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Rasta Ronny

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 11:08:43 AM »
Some answers to your questions.  Yes, I am blowing fuses.  So, thanks for more info on how to use a headlight.  I was getting 2.8 volts on the blue-green wire.  The other probe was to ground.  I was thinking the same thing about the solenoid not getting power.  I wasn't surprised due to no fuse E.  I'll try to hook up a light in place of the fuse and wiggle wires around.  Thanks everyone for your help!!!

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Special won't start - neutral not indicating
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 10:41:33 PM »
If you remove fuse E you will be able to find the hot side of the fuse using your meter (12 Volts)
Then if you turn the key off measure the other fuse terminal to chassis using your Ohmmeter, it would be interesting to know how low it reads. You can't do any harm with your multimeter.
However if you try the light bulb trick you will find it much more visual, I just solder a couple of short wires onto the bulb and stuff the wires into the fuse socket.
You could also unplug the ECU to eliminate that from possible shorts but you just might disturb a short somewhere else in the process.
Good Luck
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 12:43:26 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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07 Griso 1100
17 V7iii Special

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

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