Author Topic: Two springs better than one?  (Read 498 times)

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Two springs better than one?
« on: April 08, 2021, 10:59:03 AM »
This is ancient history, but once upon a time the T3 side stand had one spring, which was later replaced by two springs, in parallel, attached to a pivot plate. All subsequent Tonti side stands, I think, had the same design. My Griso has two concentric springs instead.

Why two springs? Do we have any good arguments? Any actual evidence?

Thanks,

Moto
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 11:08:53 AM by moto »
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Online Sye

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Be nice, feel good
  • Location: Liverpool, England
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 11:14:59 AM »
If one breaks the other will keep the stand in place. For safety I suppose?

Offline n3303j

  • Ron Cichowski
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 899
  • Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 11:24:08 AM »
Had one spring break on my one spring T3.
Going down the highway I looked down and saw my sidestand fully deployed. Kicked it inboard and did a bungee repair.
Glad I didn't do any left swerves before I noticed the anomaly.

Smiled when I bought the EV and saw the two spring setup.
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 12:43:01 PM »
Thanks. I'm convinced the change to two springs was for safety, especially after Ron's report of an actual spring breakage!

In fiddling around lately, I noticed two other benefits, for what this might be worth.

1. Two springs are much easier to fit, requiring no wrestling matches. Here's how:

With only one of the springs attached to the spring plate and the side stand, mount the side stand in the usual way. This is much easier without the other spring.

Then extend the side stand to the fully extended position, and place 8-10 quarters or similar coins in the coils while the spring is extended. Return the stand to the retracted position, and remove that first spring with the coins still in it.

Repeat the same procedure with the other spring. Now you have two springs that are extended by the coins and can be attached with the spring plate to the dismounted side stand. Their extension means the assembly can be easily placed over the mounting peg on the frame with no cussing or knuckle busting. Once that's done, extend the stand to the ground and remove all the coins from both springs. Here's a photo of a coin-extended assembly ready to mount:





Comments: Obviously, you don't need to do this, since we've all probably wrestled stands into place without pre-extending the springs. But this makes it almost a pleasure. If you remember to put coins in the spring coils before removing a previously mounted spring, you are already set, of course. One drawback of the two-step, two-spring procedure is that it only really works if you can freely move the mounted side stand between the fully-retracted and fully-extended positions. I had my back tire up on wood blocks with the front in a chock. In a pinch, you could lean the bike against a tree or a wall.

2. The other advantage of the two-spring system is that minor adjustments in the length of the spring + plate assembly could be achieved by making a new steel plate with holes adjusted to new locations as needed. This could be much easier than sourcing a new spring(s) of the right length. This advantage came to mind when I was reading the MGCycle web page where it was said that Guzzi had used somewhat different-length springs over time, without, I believe, changing the part number. (This was pretty standard Guzzi part-number protocol back in the day.)

Moto
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:48:48 PM by moto »
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 12:43:01 PM »

Offline n3303j

  • Ron Cichowski
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 899
  • Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 02:09:25 PM »
I'm old & maybe I'm wrong but I seem to remember that if you removed the locking tab from the kickstand it could be swung to a position where the spring (s) would just drop on.
Then it was no problem to swing the sprung stand back to a normal position and reinstall the locking tab and retention nut.
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Online RinkRat II

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1814
  • Lake Powell AZ
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2021, 02:10:42 PM »
   I have an extra set of concentric springs from a V11Sport and I used my trusty fish spring scale to see the difference in pull. The outer spring just starts to expand at 22lbs. The smaller backup spring moves at 9lbs. So I agree that it's for safety purposes when the big one let's go. 

      Paul B :boozing:
A Miller in the hand is worth two in the fridge.

Offline pehayes

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4090
    • Falcone Touring
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2021, 03:42:12 PM »
I'm always confused by this issue.  Surely the double spring is a safety precaution against breakage.  A very rare event indeed but potentially dangerous.  Not always, but most likely if the spring is going to break it will happen at the moment of deployment and that should be zero mph.  My 98EV has dual parallel springs.  Instead of specifying lighter springs, Guzzi simply duplicated installation of the single original spring thus doubling the force load.  Makes the sidestand more difficult to deploy and retract.  I've been riding mine for years with one spring removed.  Many people dislike that solution.  YMMV.

Unlike the older bikes, the 98EV also has a redundant electrical switch to kill the engine when the stand is moved outward for deployment.  Of course, you can't idle or warm the bike when it is resting on a deployed sidestand.  A great many riders seem to have no issue with disconnecting the safety switch for their own idling convenience.  Some  have even  had issues with faulty/intermittent switches effecting the motor while driving.  Dangerous cut out, but perhaps not as catastrophic as an actual accidental full deployment of the sidestand.

The obvious best solution is the current iteration involving the transmission.  The sidestand safety switch has no effect in neutral but kills the motor as soon as you drop into gear.  Older bike riders just have to choose their own preferences based on technology and awareness.

As an aside, there is quirky movie featuring a Guzzi police chase scene.  "Harold and Maude" if you haven't seen it.  Pay attention.  As the scene starts, the cop is riding a Kawasaki four.  Later he is riding a Guzzi Ambassador.  What happened?  Running in slow motion, you can see that the Kawasaki has started out with the sidestand remaining fully deployed.  Once up to pursuit speed he enters a left-hand sweeper.  On the cutting floor will be images of the sidestand hitting down and launching the rider into the ditch.   Delays in filming while they sourced another police bike to finish the scene.  Scene filmed here in my home town.



Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2021, 05:08:52 PM »
... As an aside, there is quirky movie featuring a Guzzi police chase scene.  "Harold and Maude" if you haven't seen it.  Pay attention.  As the scene starts, the cop is riding a Kawasaki four.  Later he is riding a Guzzi Ambassador.  What happened?  Running in slow motion, you can see that the Kawasaki has started out with the sidestand remaining fully deployed.  Once up to pursuit speed he enters a left-hand sweeper.  On the cutting floor will be images of the sidestand hitting down and launching the rider into the ditch.   Delays in filming while they sourced another police bike to finish the scene.  Scene filmed here in my home town.
...
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Wow! You're right! I just scoped the movie out on Amazon Prime Video, where it is available at no (extra) charge. It's exactly as you described -- the Kawasaki's side stand is down the whole way up to the lefthand sweeper, then in the next cut the officer dismounts from a Guzzi to deal with the miscreants who have stopped. Did you find this yourself??  :bow:  I can't see how any explanation but the one you offer makes any sense.

I saw this movie back when it was well-loved by the us anti-establishment types in grad school.

Moto
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 05:22:45 PM by moto »
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Offline pehayes

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4090
    • Falcone Touring
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2021, 06:13:20 PM »
Did you find this yourself??

I've seen the movie dozens of times.  Can't remember if I saw the issue or read about it and then saw it.  There is a 'fan' page somewhere that has all sorts of odd information about the movie, like Bud Cort whacking himself in the head with the shovel and Tom Skerritt playing the moto cop but credited as Martin Borman.  There is a long story about the actor moto cop that crashed.  Messed himself up medically pretty good.  Apparently it took weeks to reorganize and re-shoot the scene with the Guzzi.  Over the  years I've had many Guzzisti visit me and I do generally try to take them to the filming location, especially if they ride a LoopFrame.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9459
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2021, 06:25:52 PM »


Gotta’ be a safety thing, anything else is a bonus.
It’s a sickening thought that your side stand drops down as you’re entering a 140 kph left sweeper....(all over....).
Even those hard rubber tangs like on the jap bikes and such, are a good thing.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 06:29:49 PM by Huzo »

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 08:02:15 PM »
I'm old & maybe I'm wrong but I seem to remember that if you removed the locking tab from the kickstand it could be swung to a position where the spring (s) would just drop on.
Then it was no problem to swing the sprung stand back to a normal position and reinstall the locking tab and retention nut.

Ron,

I'm old too, so I had to put my bike up on the lift and take a look. There is no removable stop either on the kickstand or its bracket, on my T3. That would be a good solution!

Another method of mounting the stand was recommended by Dave Richardson I believe. That was to attach the spring first on both ends and then pull the stand into position and insert the pivot bolt. I think this may have been responsible for buggering up my pivot bolt over time, though.

Moto


850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Online Dharma Bum

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 769
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2021, 10:00:58 PM »
Just one question, moto. Is the hammer used for disassembly, or assembly? :azn:

Offline n3303j

  • Ron Cichowski
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 899
  • Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2021, 12:31:27 AM »
Ron,

I'm old too, so I had to put my bike up on the lift and take a look. There is no removable stop either on the kickstand or its bracket, on my T3. That would be a good solution!

Another method of mounting the stand was recommended by Dave Richardson I believe. That was to attach the spring first on both ends and then pull the stand into position and insert the pivot bolt. I think this may have been responsible for buggering up my pivot bolt over time, though.

Moto



So you don't have the police stand?
My stand has a keyed tab held on to the stand by a nylock nut as shown in the photo.
I remove the nut and tab and the stand will rotate 180 degrees (about).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 12:33:26 AM by n3303j »
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2021, 04:04:06 AM »
So you don't have the police stand?

Ah, the police stand. Nope.
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Offline dguzzi

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1392
  • I'd rather have a tractor beam than a winch.
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2021, 07:27:51 AM »
  I noticed that the upper spring rubs (slightly) on the exhaust. It must be that the hook should be reversed to give enough clearance?  Its very lightly touching, I need to look more closely.
'03 EVT
'87 Cagiva
'72 Commando
'71 Commando
'04 Troybilt
'00 Tundra
'90 Miata
'16 Mustang
'76 Puch   (moped)

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 06:42:36 PM »
... My 98EV has dual parallel springs.  Instead of specifying lighter springs, Guzzi simply duplicated installation of the single original spring thus doubling the force load.  Makes the sidestand more difficult to deploy and retract.  I've been riding mine for years with one spring removed.  Many people dislike that solution.  YMMV....

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Patrick,

You or others might try removing one spring and replacing the remaining one with a dual-spring setup involving smaller springs, such as the ones sold by MGCycle as part of a kit for older Tontis. The total pull of the two springs should be about the same as one of the original springs, if these are similar to the ones on the T3.





The three set-ups shown in the picture are (1) a single-spring T3 replacement sold by Scrambler Cycle and others, (2) the dual-spring setup sold by MG Cycle as part of the previously-mentioned kit, and (3) a dual-spring setup from a Lemans IV (as I recall).

The resistances to extension in the three cases, measured in pounds per inch, are respectively:

      1) 45 lb./in.
      2) 2 x 18.5 = 37 lb./in.
      3) 2 x 16.5 = 33 lb./in.

It was interesting to see that both the dual-spring setups measure less than 7 inches between the attachment points, while the single-spring T3 replacement, at about 7.5 inches, is clearly too long, allowing the side stand to droop. (This particular spring was described as 7 1/4 inches by Scrambler Cycle, but it is not. MG Cycle and a German vendor both offer one "about 7.5 inches" or longer.) I remember my own, now lost, single-spring original (?) was also too long. In any case, the shorter dual-spring setups are both the right length for a T3 stand. For your 98EV, you'd have to measure.

Here is the rig I used to measure the spring rates:





When assembled, the fish scale is at the top, with the spring to be measured and a dual-end spark plug socket below it, followed by the partial turnbuckle and a plumb bob. These hang from a strap secured to my garage door frame. Below the whole thing I placed a steel plate with a 1-inch thick board on top of it.

The method I used was to adjust the turnbuckle so that the plumb bob was just touching the 1-inch board. Then I removed the board, zeroed the gauge and pulled down at the spark plug socket until I heard the plumb bob contact the steel plate. The reading on the gauge at that point was the required pounds to extend a spring one inch from the preload of a little more than one pound. The values are approximate.

Moto
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 07:02:46 PM by moto »
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Online moto

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 317
  • Potrebbe andar peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2021, 09:38:18 PM »
Just one question, moto. Is the hammer used for disassembly, or assembly? :azn:

Neither. Customization!

  I noticed that the upper spring rubs (slightly) on the exhaust. It must be that the hook should be reversed to give enough clearance?  Its very lightly touching, I need to look more closely.

It's possible. I would expect spring ends to be centered, but the left one in this photo is not:





Such sensitivity doesn't seem very Guzzi-like to me. But you could also check the parts diagram for your bike since this will show the orientation of the springs.

Moto
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR)
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Online Ncdan

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4422
Re: Two springs better than one?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2021, 09:56:38 PM »
I do not care how many springs my 2002 Stone has but it would be nice to be able to reach it from a normal seating position and not have to sit on the gas tank to reach it. How in the world a short person reaches it without tying a rope to it is beyond me🤔
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 09:57:29 PM by Ncdan »

 

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here