MARK’S GRISO FUEL MAP REVIEW (somewhat long)

[Gootsz]

Hello I have a 2009 GRISO. The following is my attempt/path to improve the fuel map.

1) Stock map was awful. Reminded me of a two stroke. Slow acceleration then Wham full throttle. Very unruly at low RPM >:(

2) Added Guzzi tech O2 optimizer. Better but still unruly.

3) Had Todd update map to “68”. He was eager and very generous to help me out. Ran much better but as always wanted more.  :'(

4) I did not want to go the whole PCV/AT route so I had Todd reflash the ECU (expensive). MUCH better low end, still a dip at 4500 but good top end. PROBLEM (at least for me) fuel went from 37+ mpg to 28mpg. I guess I was just too greedy to accept that. Now this reflash did exactly what I was told so there is no problem with how it worked just the fuel. :'(

Finally I read about Mark’s map thru Pete Roper. I contacted him and discussed the what and how of Mark’s map. I was looking really for smoothness but still wanted it to be a GRISO.

Well it was tough sending my spare ECU to Australia but I did and WOW. :o

The idle is smooth, Very good low end response. No snatch at all. NO dip at 4500 and full power at 5000. It might be a little less on top I have yet to dyno, but 133mph(I am 5’11” 210lb) is sufficiently fast for me. The fuel mileage is BACK. I now get 35+ mpg treating it the same way so I am very happy. Oh yes the price was VERY reasonable even including the shipping to Oz.

Well that’s it; everyone’s attempt to help me out did as they advertised but the return of fuel mileage, cost and the addition smoothness from Mark’s map has my vote. :bow

I highly recommend it to anyone who just wants a smooth good running GRISO.

Micky

[bsanut]

Same engine as '09 Stelvio?

Joe

[Vasco DG]

Same engine, different airbox and exhaust parameters. As soon as I can tee up a development bike we'll be working on maps for other 8V models. Hopefully once we've got that under controll we'll move on to the 2VPC machines.

Pete

[pauldaytona]

Well it was not the idea of Guzzidiag that you would ship your ecu over the world, but DIY. Flashing an ecu with whatever map is easy and painless. Even Pete can do it. :-)
And after flashing another map you will need a tps reset, how did you manage that?

[Gootsz]

I have the centurion (VDST). just hook it up and push calibarte.

Set ilde trim and do component testing.

Looks like a trip to the coaters. I have one in town just decide on color/finish.

micky

[Moto]

I have the centurion (VDST). just hook it up and push calibarte.

Set ilde trim and do component testing.

Looks like a trip to the coaters. I have one in town just decide on color/finish.

micky

I just noticed one model of Centurions is on close-out sale now at GuzziTech. Wonder if competition from Guzzidiag had anything to do with that?

[Vasco DG]

Well it was not the idea of Guzzidiag that you would ship your ecu over the world, but DIY. Flashing an ecu with whatever map is easy and painless. Even Pete can do it. :-)
And after flashing another map you will need a tps reset, how did you manage that?

Getting the ECU shipped was easier in this case than the alternative. Mickey has the Centurion system so he can do all the run-of-the-mill mucking about so he didn't need to get Guzzidiag cables. As you say the great thing about Guzzidiag Reader/writer is that bin. Files can easily be emailed.

The reason we're charging at all is simply to cover costs, that's why our option is so bloody cheap! There is no way we can encrypt or 'secure' our map, anybody can read it or write it. It all depends if they think that would be a decent or honourable thing to do. We've read several of the alternative 'Reflashes', quite frankly we weren't impressed bit we aren't going to publicly disclose what they involve because, well? Simply because we think it would be a bit of a low act. Some others not seem to have the same scruples. (shrug?) such is life.

Pete

[molly]

Certainly using a ready made map is a lot easier and probably cheaper than buying a datalogger and spending hours on the road tweaking the fuel maps. I always thought the self tune side of Guzzidiag would appeal to a limited number of people and it would not effect the professional tuners too much.
Having said that I had the time, equipment and a passable knowledge of the editing side to make the whole thing worthwhile and very satisfying.
Remember Paul and his programmer gave us this brilliant piece of software for free and only asks for a donation of your choice.

[beetle]

Micky, thanks for a good review. I appreciate it. My intention was to make a map that provided great low end grunt and a smooth ride right through the rev range. Linear power delivery from idle to redline without losing that Griso 'something' was my goal - I reckon I did it.

The bottom end has been called brutal by some, the mid range power dip is gone, the engine is a smooth as can be and you can still get 45mpg in cruise mode.

Sure, top end power is down by a few HP, but who rides in the plus 7500 rpm range on the road? This map was for stock bikes with stock or aftermarket pipes with a dB killer in. For those who don't want to add aftermarket gizmo's or spend heaps on some aftermarket options, this is the answer.


Thanks,
Mark

[Vasco DG]

Its also worth remembering that since my last dyno runs on the Green Pig the dyno has been re-calibrated and the results from this last run were from Mark's bike which has only done 10,000kms or so so its barely run in. Certainly regardless of what the dyno says my bike doesn't feel any weaker than it did before but as Mark says? Who rides around at redline the whole time?

Pete

[swmckinley54]

I have a 2012 Stelvio NTX which has the Mistral exhaust with DB killer in. the bike has 22,000 miles on it and mods  have been on since new. I have had my ECU re-flashed from the local dealer (AF-1) via the Rexxer app. He used a Griso map. He put the bike on the Dyno and tuned the A/F mixture and called it good. He says that the bikes come from the factory tuned in a very lean mixture. The bike runs very well but the gas mileage sucks. 23-27 mpg city and 32 -34 highway. That data is computed by dividing miles/gallons actually put in the bike, not relying on bike computer readout. So can this map improve my mpg or should I be satisfied with what I have got. If so how should I proceed. Thanks.

[Gootsz]

My mileage is straight from the pump miles/gallons.

That 35  IS city driving and a little interstate.  Now i don't run 6th gear at 50mph. If I did it would be more like 40 mpg.(guess)

I use the gears and the rpm without abusing the speed limit too badly. But for the most part no short shifting.

The map is for a Griso, Beetle would have to say if it would truly work or not.

I too with another's reflash got 27mpg like you.  But this map delivers.

Micky

[bsanut]

Interested in whatever this is, for my '09 Stelvio, if will improve bottom end (and maybe get rid of that hunting idle?).  Otherwise, she runs pretty well.  Bike is bone stock.

Joe

[kirb]

Does anyone have a map for a Mistral piped 4V Griso?

I have an idea of the bottom end to reduce decel pop as I'll take my adjustments from the PCV and put them into the ECU after I remove the PCV. I don't have my head around the mid to top end and I'm pretty sure the PCV mid-top end might be a tad rich. Dyno time soon to work out a map once I get the Guzzidiag read/write working.

[Vasco DG]

The Griso map will be far from ideal in a Stelvio due to the disparity in pipe lengths. As soon as I can arrange a test mule we hope to be able to offer something for Stelvios but at the moment its 8V Griso only. Mark has a full time job, this stuff is little more than a hobby for him.

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Does anyone have a map for a Mistral piped 4V Griso?

I have an idea of the bottom end to reduce decel pop as I'll take my adjustments from the PCV and put them into the ECU after I remove the PCV. I don't have my head around the mid to top end and I'm pretty sure the PCV mid-top end might be a tad rich. Dyno time soon to work out a map once I get the Guzzidiag read/write working.

On this my Mate Dave is on the hunt for a G11, when he finds one we'll have a test mule for that bike. Next cab off the rank looks like it might be the 2VPC Norge as I'm currently sorting one of them and its owner lives in Wagga Wagga, same town as Mark.

Pete

[bsanut]

The Griso map will be far from ideal in a Stelvio due to the disparity in pipe lengths. As soon as I can arrange a test mule we hope to be able to offer something for Stelvios but at the moment its 8V Griso only. Mark has a full time job, this stuff is little more than a hobby for him.

Pete

No problem, bike actually runs fine enough.  But if something better comes along, will be interested.  Thanks for the response.

Joe

[Vasco DG]

I have a 2012 Stelvio NTX which has the Mistral exhaust with DB killer in. the bike has 22,000 miles on it and mods  have been on since new. I have had my ECU re-flashed from the local dealer (AF-1) via the Rexxer app. He used a Griso map. He put the bike on the Dyno and tuned the A/F mixture and called it good. He says that the bikes come from the factory tuned in a very lean mixture. The bike runs very well but the gas mileage sucks.

One of the consistent things I read about in threads where maps have been modified relying on EGA alone is that the bikes all have lousy fuel consumption. This usually goes hand in hand with the old stalwart that 'These bikes run very lean from the factory'. Thing is that while they run lean when they are in closed loop, especially at lower RPM the top end in all the 8V ones I've looked at seem to be rich once you go into open loop and taking fuel out not puting it in is the order of the day.

Pete

[pauldaytona]

One of the consistent things I read about in threads where maps have been modified relying on EGA alone is that the bikes all have lousy fuel consumption. This usually goes hand in hand with the old stalwart that 'These bikes run very lean from the factory'. Thing is that while they run lean when they are in closed loop, especially at lower RPM the top end in all the 8V ones I've looked at seem to be rich once you go into open loop and taking fuel out not puting it in is the order of the day.

Pete

Pete, thats just what I see in my lambda measurments. taking 20% fuel of the top is not stange. So thats where you never have an closed loop, why did they do that, give extra cooling?


What I do, is: i looked what rpm/ gas I run at steady speeds, in that range I made the map that it runs 0.95- 1.0 lambda in the range with higher throttle I let it run richer, because thats the accelerating range.  Most time on public roads you drive not much over 4000 rpm. So that is where you spend most fuel. What it does with fuel at 7k isn't important, there you want power not fuel efficiency
swmckinley54 what 2012 ntx is that: small tank, one lambda or what?  Else a griso map won't work ever. The bike doesn't even run. From 2011 Mandello made big tank 2 lambda Stelvio's

[RacerX]

Hello I have a 2009 GRISO. The following is my attempt/path to improve the fuel map.
1) Stock map was awful. Reminded me of a two stroke. Slow acceleration then Wham full throttle. Very unruly at low RPM >:(
2) Added Guzzi tech O2 optimizer. Better but still unruly.
3) Had Todd update map to “68”. He was eager and very generous to help me out. Ran much better but as always wanted more.  :'(
4) I did not want to go the whole PCV/AT route so I had Todd reflash the ECU (expensive). MUCH better low end, still a dip at 4500 but good top end. PROBLEM (at least for me) fuel went from 37+ mpg to 28mpg. I guess I was just too greedy to accept that. Now this reflash did exactly what I was told so there is no problem with how it worked just the fuel.

For those that continue to want to bash and or ignore my fueling efforts for the last 13+ years as an advisor to Dynojet for all things Guzzi, please skip my post below.

Micky, I'm surprised you didn't contact me back again. The 068 map is garbage, and the new 03 map is much better. My 02-optimizer is a band-aid at best. I state that often.
Facts: Bikes change, map revisions are inevitable. There is NO *one size fits all* static fuel map that is solid. With differences in state of tune, wear and tear, etc... so not having Air/Fuel data to correct fueling is simply being ignorant. Outside of what Pete is going on about on how great things with "his" mapping, and despite all of my efforts to show him how well my stuff works, I say be very cautious. Different fuels around the globe show problematic when sharing, this is on *brand new machines* - From what I have seen in 13+ years of Guzzi F.I. manipulation. Wide-band 02-sensors continue to prove valuable in proper tuning, despite what Pete says. Dynojet has built a multi-million $ business on it. It works. Air - air/oil cooled motors are still largely fuel cooled, so getting great fuel mileage is tough, unless you want to stick your head in the sand with excessively lean fueling. To each his own.

Do NOT even remotely attempt to run another bike type of map, even if it uses the same motor (8V). They are all VERY different.

Diag has proven solid for basics such as TPS reset. Kudos to Paul and the programmer. However, I have now re-flashed several ECU flashes corrupted by this software.
A recent inverted connection to positive with my cables sent both up in smoke, so beware. It took me several attempts to obtain the correct cables to begin with, so I'm not sure if I'll go through the headaches again.

For those who are enjoying my efforts, thank you.

Todd at GuzziTech.com

[RacerX]

I just noticed one model of Centurions is on close-out sale now at GuzziTech. Wonder if competition from Guzzidiag had anything to do with that?

No, they are readying an update under a new name, using bluetooth connectivity to smart devices in addition to the normal PC avenues.

[Vasco DG]

Not 'Bashing' Todd. Its simply that we've found the products you supply wanting. Others may disagree, that's fine. As for Guzzidiag bricking ECU's? Never seen it.

Pete

[Bikeless]

This is in no way, shape or form a review of Todd's Griso fueling system.  I have no experience with it, and so have no opinion on the subject.

My 8V ECU is goofy enough to require activating DucatiDiag [it apparently wakes the ECU up] before GuzziDiag can start running.  It took a couple of pairs of cables and Paul's expertise to figure this out.

Since Paul figured out that my ECU is lazy [like owner, like bike! ;D], I have used GuzziDiag a number of times to change my ECU mapping and never experienced a problem with it.  And by "a number of times," I mean well over 100.  It seemed like a million times.  Between my sophomoric attempts, Paul's suggestions, Tiger_One's suggestions, and finally the many test iterations of the Mark/Pete wonder-map...there were a lot of re-maps.

No bricked ECUs.  Not even a scare.

I think it's a testament to the Griso engine's durability that I didn't turn my engine into a brick during my earliest efforts.  If you are a maintenance dilettante like me, seek the advice of experts.  It'll make the fueling better, the ride smoother, and you won't pull your hair out in frustration.   :BEER:

[RacerX]

Not 'Bashing' Todd. Its simply that we've found the products you supply wanting. Others may disagree, that's fine. As for Guzzidiag bricking ECU's? Never seen it.

:beat_horse
OK, but for the record, you've never once used it. If you've seen a few "too rich" plugs, that was likely user error. Dynojet uses this WB-technology on every internal combustion engine (including cars, boats & trucks) to the tune of multi-millions of USD's/year. It works brilliantly.
Diag bricking an ECU, didn't say that. Corrupted enough to run... horrifically. It doesn't surprise me when people who it's happened to don't speak up here.

[beetle]

For those that continue to want to bash and or ignore my fueling efforts for the last 13+ years as an advisor to Dynojet for all things Guzzi, please skip my post below.

Todd, I really don't think anyone is trying to bash you. I applaud your efforts over the years to assist owners to get better fuelling from their bikes.

My map is a low cost alternative to the all the rather expensive addons available (yours isn't the only one). It certainly does not under fuel the Griso. To say so is misinformed. The map errs on the rich side. Griso's with this map do not run lean or hot, and yet still get better mileage than the stock map and have a much better ride.  This map is for stock bikes with exhausts with db killers in. Anyone with a modifed bike should look for alternatives, such as your products.

I have several users on both sides of the US and Australia who are very pleased with their maps. The bikes run great and are NOT under fuelled, even with high ethanol content fuel.

I'm somewhat concerned with your statement regarding corrupt ECU's. To my knowledge and with several hundred reflashes with two separate ECU's, plus all those testing my map, and hundreds of others worldwide, GuzziDiag has NEVER corrupted a ECU.  Please do not try to scare people into not using GuzziDiag with your alleged experience. I think Paul will back me on that.

Furthermore,  I challenge anyone with a stock 8V Griso to try my map. You'll get a pleasant ride, with more low down grunt and great fuel economy, and it won't cost a weeks salary.

The first five Griso owners to PM me,  I will send the map provided they honestly and openly review the map on Wildguzzi. Persons with commercial interests in Guzzi tuning need not apply.


 ;-T

[Vasco DG]

For those who don't have access to Guzzidiag who would like to take Mark up on this offer you can send your ECU to me if you want. I'll even cover the postage. The only thing you'll need to be able to do apart from unplug it and plug it is is one of the proprietary tools to re-set the TPS and adjust the idle trim.

Pete

[beetle]

The first five Griso owners to PM me,  I will send the map provided they honestly and openly review the map  :Don Wildguzzi. Persons with commercial interests in Guzzi tuning need not apply.

1 taker so far. 4 left!

 :D

[Bikeless]

Me!  MEmemememe.....

Oh, wait.  Nevermind.

 :BEER:

[Vasco DG]

:beat_horse
OK, but for the record, you've never once used it. If you've seen a few "too rich" plugs, that was likely user error. Dynojet uses this WB-technology on every internal combustion engine (including cars, boats & trucks) to the tune of multi-millions of USD's/year. It works brilliantly.
Diag bricking an ECU, didn't say that. Corrupted enough to run... horrifically. It doesn't surprise me when people who it's happened to don't speak up here.

Incorrect. Mine didn't work. That, despite the expense, i overlooked. I have also seen quite a few PCV/AT equipped bikes and worked with their owners, both 2VPC and 4VPC. I consistently and repeatedly see the issues i have described.

I am not an idiot. We may not agree but I will not resile from my beliefs because of your 13 years as an advisor to Dynojet, I'm sorry but I think your base precepts and understanding of the 8V engine in particular are deeply flawed. The fact that mark can get such huge improvements in rideability AND lower fuel consumption simply by listening to my theories and taking them on board speaks volumes.

As for 'bashing' your product and efforts this is precisely the reason i decided to cease contributing to Guzzitech. I did not wish to be seen as someone who was in open disagreement about your products and ideas on what is effectively your advertising portal. If you see it in some other light? Well, i'm sorry but there ain't much I can do about that to convince you otherwise. I wish you all the best.

Pete

[beetle]

That's 2.

3 more Griso's needed!

 ;D