Author Topic: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!  (Read 43949 times)

beetle

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2014, 06:52:36 PM »
My middle name is 'killjoy'   :D

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2014, 06:53:24 PM »
Killroy the Killjoy?? ;) :D
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Re:
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2014, 07:00:55 PM »
But in reality the volumetric efficiency ISN'T occurring, at least in the automotive market.
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Offline kckershovel

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2014, 07:10:14 PM »
    Well What can I add to the debate? I think a 400-800cc supercharged bike would be great. I think if we are going to have water cooled motorcycles they might as well have forced induction. I like superchargers for motorcycles because of the lag and plumbing that come with turbos. I can see how a turbo especially could meet emissions while off boost and provide fun when the throttle is opened. With all the electronic controlled garbage new bikes come with forced induction not only makes sense but is the natural progression and something every fossil fuel engine will have in the future. Soon there won't be a new engine made without some sort of forced induction. It's all about thermo efficacy. Before long manufactures will incorporate more and more ways to harness the thermodynamic losses to increase both MPG, emissions and HP per displacement.

    As far as the AA drag debate, I believe Turbos are heavily regulated against and discouraged in almost every way in Drag racing. Please correct me if I am wrong but last I checked there were rules against Turbos and that is why you don't see them.    

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2014, 07:10:14 PM »

beetle

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2014, 07:18:27 PM »
But in reality the volumetric efficiency ISN'T occurring, at least in the automotive market.


Don't underestimate the Japanese motorcycle industry. At the end of the day, it won't need to be a wonder bike that produces more power than a normally aspirated engine and gets 90 mpg, it just has to perform the same and meet the new emission laws. Better emissions and same power? Quite doable I expect.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 07:20:56 PM by beetle »

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Re:
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2014, 07:21:51 PM »
When I'm on the laptop tomorrow I'll post the link to the Consumer Reports that details the tend they've seen in real world testing that patterns what many owners are complaining about.

The real world direct injection turbo motors are fairing much better on the US EPA tests, but worse in real world mileage.

My personal example I referred to earlier would be:

3500# 1.8L turbo ~200 hp Nissan Juke rated at 25/30, but that typically gets 22/25, and can maybe struggle to 27 @ < 65 mph with only me in it.

Vs

5500# 3.6L NA ~300 hp Jeep Grand Cherokee rated at only 16/23, but with the same drivers gets 19/24, the highway number at 75-80 mph, but has turned in 26+ over 500+ round trip miles with 5 passengers, their luggage for a week, and some off road driving.
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Re: Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2014, 07:23:55 PM »

Don't underestimate the Japanese motorcycle industry. At the end of the day, it won't need to be a wonder bike that produces more power than a normally aspirated engine and gets 90 mpg, it just has to perform the same and meet the new emission laws. Better emissions and same power? Quite doable I expect.
I'm certain it will make the numbers on paper and the real world power.

But if it follows their cars, it won't make as good fuel mileage numbers (not that such things are an issue to as many motorcyclists, but it'll negatively impact range I bet).
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Offline rboe

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2014, 07:44:22 PM »
When in boost mode the motors can be quite lively, and burn gas. This can be addictive so I wonder how much that has to do with lower "real" world mileage figures; people dipping too much into the boost mode. I.e. being lead foots and not taking it easy. Just wondering and thinking out loud.
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Re: Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2014, 07:52:32 PM »
Kev m did mention that Jenn thinks the accelerator pedal is an On/Off switch  ;D

  Dusty
Ahhh, but if you remember that full conversation I also said the Jeep chief her and the JEEP is currently HER daily driver. So she's getting that mileage on the bigger, heavier, more powerful vehicle and I'm struggling to hyper-mileage the smaller, lighter, less powerful turbo.
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Re: Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2014, 08:05:08 PM »
:D Yeah , but don't you need a calender to do performance testing on a jeep ? ;D

  Dusty

I had an 86 Jeep Cherokee (former Forest Service jeep) with the 2.8 V-6.  On a few hills where I go hunting, I had to drop into 4 low in order to get enough torque to climb the hill.  It was not that steep of a hill either. Have walked up it a multitude of times. I have never seen a 6 banger so week.  It was almost impossible to kill though.
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Offline kckershovel

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2014, 08:09:38 PM »
Nate , turbos are allowed in any NHRA class allowing forced induction .

  Dusty

    I don't know if that is true. Maybe with motorcycles I have not checked. I do know that NHRA Top Fuel cars no turbo chargers are allowed. That is a forced induction class and the rules are very tight no only can you not use turbos but the type and how fast you are allowed to turn the supercharger are even regulated. Those are the fastest cars that run. Heck they all still run a engines based on the 2 valve Chrysler Hemi that was stopped in 1971.  

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Re: Re: Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2014, 08:11:55 PM »
:D Yeah , but don't you need a calender to do performance testing on a jeep ? ;D

  Dusty
Or most Guzzis?


So what are we talking here, what we want to live with every day or a toy?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2014, 08:31:36 PM »
To quote a wise man, "YES"  ;D All of this matters not to me , won't ever need or buy any new vehicle . My point is simply that dismissing the ability of the Japanese to perfect and implement high tech is always a mistake .
 Dusty
It has nothing to do with the ability of a country or race to engineer something.

It's like how those same engineers are often criticized for lousy fuel mapping.

Why?

Unintended consequences of poor regulatory conditions.

The same thing is happening to the US automotive marketplace right now, so I wonder if we won't see similar problems with turbo bikes adopted for similar reasons.

That's all...
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Doppelgaenger

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2014, 01:36:31 AM »
I never meant to say that bike manufacturers couldn't pull off supercharged or turbo bikes, but the expected lifespan can't be realistically expected to equal that of production bikes nowdays. You can get pretty much as much power as you want out of an engine, Formula 1 and drag cars spring immediately to mind as examples, but those engine lives can be measured in hours or minutes.

A friend of mine turbocharged a Honda 919 this year and it ate two engines in two months. Granted it's because he did it himself, fancying himself a decent engineer because he just graduated from college. I appreciate his effort and determination, but it just goes to prove my point...

Offline guzziboy66

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2014, 07:24:23 AM »
This is oversimplified but:

Formula 1 "engines" make a fraction of the HP they used to.  They now are Hybrids and are referred to as Power Units.  Each has a V-6 Combustion engine that is turbocharged.  The turbocharger is connected to an electric motor/generator.  They use the motor to spin the turbo up at low combustion engine revs to reduce/negate any turbo lag.  On overrun/coasting the generator charges the batteries.  There's yet another electric motor/generator in the drivetrain  that is used for power boosting  and charging.

There is a limit of 5 power units to be used for an entire 19 race season.  It's made F-1 become an exercise in Aerodynamic efficiency and a bit boring. 

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Offline Aaron D.

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2014, 08:17:18 AM »
Best F1 season in years, boring.

F1 engines have to last a lot longer now, and they very seldom fail.

My first turbo car had 275,000 miles on it when I sold it, it was at 325,000 last I heard, the idea that turbos cause short engine life in OEM condition is completely false.

Offline GearheadGrrrl

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2014, 08:26:15 AM »
VW has been turboing their diesels for a couple decades now, and the engines are rated for 10,000 hours before rebuild. That's around a half million highway miles, and long before then the car has usually rusted out.
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« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2014, 09:15:13 AM »
With the new diesel emissions regs and controls it will be interesting to see if  the latest generation of US market diesels are as long lived as their historical predecessors.
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Offline charlie b

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2014, 09:18:32 AM »
Turbochargers are wonderful  :)

Problem is they are a design compromise.  You can design for less lag (smaller turbo) but then you don't get as good flow at the top end.  Design for top end and you get a lot of lag.  You can kinda get both if you use two smaller turbos, but, that is even more expensive.

Have had three turbos, WRX, Mini and the truck.  The WRX had a 'lot' of lag because it was tuned for high end power.  The Mini had less lag but did not have as good a high end.  The truck, well, it's a truck  :)  The WRX we still have and is at 180k with no engine issues (and it was modified to put out a bit over 300hp).

Never had a supercharger and never want one.  Dealt with them enough on Detroit Diesels.  The only thing that ever went wrong with those engines was related to the supercharger.  Roots design blowers have really tight tolerances to work right.  OTOH, a brother-in-law had one in an old Thunderbird and loved it, except for the poor gas mileage.  That is the drawback.  They do not really increase mileage and can make it worse than a bigger engine with same power.  But, emissions can be made lower simply due to lower swept volume in the cylinders.

So, to me it is a compromise.  One I'd rather not have on a bike.
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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2014, 09:44:34 AM »
Link to Feb 2013 Consumer Reports article on EPA ratings vs. their real world actual numbers for NA cars vs. small turbos:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/consumer-reports-finds-small-turbo-engines-don-t-deliver-on-fuel-economy-claims/index.htm


Chrysler to turbo their workhorse motor, the Pentastar:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-chrysler-pentastar-v-6-engines-to-get-direct-injection-turbocharging/

Personally, as I said earlier, I see this trend as an unfortunate unintended consequence of EPA rating test methods which are actually compelling our manufacturers to make their fleets actually less efficient while at the same time also more expensive and more complicated.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-chrysler-pentastar-v-6-engines-to-get-direct-injection-turbocharging/


I just don't see the upside of say a small turbo gas motor in a Jeep Wrangler or a minivan.

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2014, 09:51:47 AM »
Noticeable turbo lag in the Ford Power Stroke 6.7 engine I used back in July.

Of course, with over 800 lb/ft of torque available right off idle, it was only noticeable when towing near max load at interstate speeds.

I like the idea of a small supercharged motorcycle.  However, unless the OEMs can keep cost and weight down, then naturally aspirated is a better deal.

Right now, naturally aspirated motorcycle engines are putting out incredible amounts of horsepower per cc.  There is no benefit to blowing small or mid sized engines unless size and weight can be less than what it is on a larger bike. 

Looking at the size and weight of today's top performing liter bikes, I don't see how that can happen.  What is to be gained when you have 375 lbs motorcycles putting out 150+ bhp ??



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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2014, 11:37:39 AM »
 I agree with Kev and Rocker say.

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« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2014, 11:57:15 AM »
When I'm on the laptop tomorrow I'll post the link to the Consumer Reports that details the tend they've seen in real world testing that patterns what many owners are complaining about.

The real world direct injection turbo motors are fairing much better on the US EPA tests, but worse in real world mileage.

My personal example I referred to earlier would be:

3500# 1.8L turbo ~200 hp Nissan Juke rated at 25/30, but that typically gets 22/25, and can maybe struggle to 27 @ < 65 mph with only me in it.

Vs

5500# 3.6L NA ~300 hp Jeep Grand Cherokee rated at only 16/23, but with the same drivers gets 19/24, the highway number at 75-80 mph, but has turned in 26+ over 500+ round trip miles with 5 passengers, their luggage for a week, and some off road driving.

Kev, I bought my daughter an AWD Juke when they first came out. She is in college in Anderson, SC. Her trips from school to home and back are mostly on I-85. She usually gets over 30mpg for the trips and I recall her getting 33mpg on one of the trips.
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Offline redrider90

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2014, 02:35:33 PM »
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Re: Re:
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2014, 03:18:09 PM »
Kev, I bought my daughter an AWD Juke when they first came out. She is in college in Anderson, SC. Her trips from school to home and back are mostly on I-85. She usually gets over 30mpg for the trips and I recall her getting 33mpg on one of the trips.
That if AMAZING and almost unheard of on the Juke forums where there is over a 1000 post thread of owners complaining about mileage.
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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2014, 03:40:47 PM »
Looking at the size and weight of today's top performing liter bikes, I don't see how that can happen.  What is to be gained when you have 375 lbs motorcycles putting out 150+ bhp ?

After some more thorough investigation, I might venture to say that the answer is jack squat. The Kawasaki H2 will supposedly make 200 hp and weigh 525lb soaking wet, and it can be yours for an expected MSRP of $25k. The BMW S1000RR makes 193hp and weighs 450lbs soaking wet with an MSRP of $15k. 75lbs heavier (because of a massive cooling system) and 7 more hp? for TEN GRAND more? The power and torque curves might make a difference, but realistically I wonder what the point is other than to simply make a point. Sure the 300hp H2R might win a lot of races if they let it compete, but that has no bearing on street bikes.

Also, for those saying diesel turbos prove that turbo bikes would work... You can't possibly compare the two as apples to apples. Diesels have a redline of 5k at the absolute top end. The fuel is different and burns slower, diesel is a lubricant and gasoline with ethanol isn't. Sure a diesel will last forever, but that has little bearing on a gasoline engine

Offline redrider90

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2014, 04:31:29 PM »
Turbo or supercharged diesel engines could last forever and deliver prodigious mid torque great economy. Is the M/C community ready for diesel?

Well here are some diesel MCs including some Guzzi diesels.
http://www.dieselbike.net/yanmar/yanmar.htm


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« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 04:32:39 PM by redrider90 »
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2014, 04:41:14 PM »
Wikipedia has some information about them too:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_motorcycle
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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2014, 08:49:21 AM »
Me? I'm gonna have another rum...

This is a bit of a tenant, but I'm on an anti turbo kick these days BECAUSE of the unintended consequences of these EPA ratings and café standards shoving them down our gullets when they aren't actually an improvement.

My 3.6L NA Pentastar makes nearly 300 hp and regularly exceeds EPA ratings in a 2.5 ton vehicle on regular fuel, while our almost 200 hp 1.8 turbo in a 1.5 ton vehicle can't get near EPA ratings and just barely beats the larger, heavier, NA motor/vehicle running like a granny on premium.

And Chrysler is talking about adding a turbo to the Pentastar. >:(

The manufacturers don't care about real world fuel economy.    They only care about making the required EPA numbers, and those required by the other countries they sell in.    I'll bet that most people don't even check their fuel economy.    For the most part, the only ones that "know" what their vehicles are getting for fuel economy are relying on what the on-board computer is telling them.    In my experience, those on-board computers typically lie by about 10% optimistic.      I've had 3 BMW's, a MINI, and two VW's with on-board computers.    All but one read about 10% high, and that one was one of the BMWs (2005 330ci).

Using actually tank-to-tank records for MPG, the only vehicles that I've been able to get EPA MPG numbers on a regular basis have been the two VW TDI's that we have now.     The 3 normally aspirated BMWs and supercharged MINI all had to be babied to get EPA numbers.

But, if I relied on the computer, then, I'd thinking I was meeting or exceeding EPA numbers.
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Offline jas67

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Re: Era of Supercharged medium sized motorcycles coming!
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2014, 08:55:15 AM »
Kev m did mention that Jenn thinks the accelerator pedal is an On/Off switch  ;D

  Dusty

True-dat!

I've experienced it first hand.     :D

:D Yeah , but don't you need a calender to do performance testing on a jeep ? ;D

  Dusty

No.    I've ridden in their Jeep.     It's pretty quick for a 2.5 ton vehicle.   That motor in a 3,800 lb car would be fun.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:57:29 AM by jas67 »
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