Author Topic: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist  (Read 12818 times)

biking sailor

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Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« on: February 13, 2015, 02:13:35 PM »
When buying and selling stuff on craiglist, don't go to the meet up alone and do it in a busy place if possible. I like to meet in a bank parking lot, then go inside to exchange cash and notarized title.  Real convenient that way.

My wife's Aunt was close friends with the victim.  I didn't know him, but she said he was a good guy.  Be safe out there.

http://www.katv.com/story/28097311/lrpd-investigating-homicide-looking-for-stolen-motorcycle-trailer

Offline radguzzi

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2015, 02:29:11 PM »
When buying and selling stuff on craiglist, don't go to the meet up alone and do it in a busy place if possible. I like to meet in a bank parking lot, then go inside to exchange cash and notarized title.  Real convenient that way.

My wife's Aunt was close friends with the victim.  I didn't know him, but she said he was a good guy.  Be safe out there.

http://www.katv.com/story/28097311/lrpd-investigating-homicide-looking-for-stolen-motorcycle-trailer

I just met up with a fellow a couple of weeks ago in a parking lot to buy an Alvarez acuostic guitar, I thought his request to meet there was a little odd but hey, late afternoon on a Friday, every and their Mothers were out shopping so what could be more public.

All went well, I bought the guitar, exchanged funds and we parted...

I understand teh concern here though.

Best,
Rob



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dilligaf

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2015, 02:37:35 PM »
Same sort of thing happened here in Charleston.  No one was injured but the motorcycle was stolen.  Not sure what the final outcome was.  :BEER:
Matt

Online steven c

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 03:00:19 PM »
 A friend of mine's nephew had his bike he was selling stolen when he met the buyer at a warehouse. Just recently my brother answered an ad for someone looking to have a room painted. When he got there it was in a kind of rundown area, he went into the house to check it out and one of the guys starts yelling at him, my brother realized he was being robed, so he kick the guy in the balls the punched him in the nose and chased off the other robber, called the cops and sat on the guy till the cops came. Now he is 62 and not in great shape but don't mess with my brother. Then again he was lucky.
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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 03:00:19 PM »

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 03:08:23 PM »
I recently wanted to buy a refrigerator that I saw on Craigslist.  The ad said the guy wanted to trade for a gun, but was OK with cash too.  I asked the seller to tell me the manufacturer and model number repeatedly, but never got the complete answer.  I asked for his phone number so I could call if I got lost, but he didn't send it to me.  I used Google street view to see the house the refrigerator was in, and it looked like a decent neighborhood.  Then I did a Google search for that address, and found that someone there had been arrested for assaulting a woman in the last year or so.  That was the last straw, so I called the guy and told him that I decided not to buy it.  It's amazing what you can find with a quick search these days.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:10:35 PM by Triple Jim »
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Offline segesta

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 03:50:47 PM »
I've only had people come to my house after I've spoken with them on the phone--not just emails or text--get an idea of their trustworthy/crazy-ness, and even then make sure the deal happens in the garage, not inside the house. Oh, and then have someone else at home that's not standing next to me. Ie, if something nutty happens, they can easily call 911.

I've had no problems--mostly the Craigslist challenges are that I don't speak Urdu, Polish, or Spanish.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:51:40 PM by segesta »
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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 05:38:15 PM »
Imagine my luck. I survived two separate purchases this week from CList:

A 1962 Snyder Hi-Lo camper and a Colt 1917.

Still sharp to notice and quick to act along with populated neutral ground is sound advice. Me? I take a half-mad dog and CCW.

Todd.
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Offline TDF

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 06:21:04 PM »
I'm tearing down a hog building on my brother's acreage, so I loaded up a few stainless steel hog feeders and hauled them back to my place near Lincoln NE.  Ran an ad on C-list.  Talked to what seemed like a nice kid so told him the address of my home.  Says his Dad would be there on Monday to pick up a couple of them.  Monday at an hour before dark his Dad calls and says he's gotten busy won't be there for another two hours.  No biggie.  He seems normal over the phone.  He finally pulls in my driveway (1/4 mile long on the back side of hill out in the country, house can't be seen from the road) and as he pulls up I tell him the Dog's friendly (60+ lb boxer mutt, built like a tank, that's running loose), he gets out and looks over the feeders, and picks out the two he wants, pays me in cash, then as we're loading them he starts mentioning how nervous he gets buying stuff over C-list with all the news articles you read these days.  I said yep, you never can be too careful these days.  Of course I didn't mention the Colt Officers Model 45 acp strapped to my hip under my jacket.  Yep you never can be too safe.

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 06:38:06 PM »
For years and years, hundreds of years in fact, we bought and sold stuff via classified ads, notes posted on bulletin boards, and signs in the yard.

ANY time a stranger wants to buy something from you, or you want to go and buy something from a stranger, you always have to go to where they are, or have them come into your private space, and make the deal.

Is there something about Craigslist that makes that experience worse than it used to be, or is more just the current state of the world that makes it like that .... ?

Lannis
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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 09:06:02 PM »
For years and years, hundreds of years in fact, we bought and sold stuff via classified ads, notes posted on bulletin boards, and signs in the yard.

ANY time a stranger wants to buy something from you, or you want to go and buy something from a stranger, you always have to go to where they are, or have them come into your private space, and make the deal.

Is there something about Craigslist that makes that experience worse than it used to be, or is more just the current state of the world that makes it like that .... ?

Lannis

I think it's the anonymity of the web combined with the speed with which an item can be posted and replied to.

People seem to abandon caution because they're afraid the "good deal" will get snapped up by someone else.

I've never used CL, although I've been somewhat interested in an item from time to time.  If I ever decide to meet someone to make a deal, or even to look at the item, I'll arrange a meeting at the local PD.  Even if the other person doesn't know that it is the PD.

Just my $0.02.
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Offline oldmxdog61u

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 09:18:05 PM »
On the other hand, lots of good people out there. Like the guy who sold me my bike from n.Carolina.   sent him a check,  he sent the bike. Simple, old school honest folk whose word is their bond.
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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 09:24:16 PM »
On the other hand, lots of good people out there. Like the guy who sold me my bike from n.Carolina.   sent him a check,  he sent the bike. Simple, old school honest folk whose word is their bond.

What did you buy?

Was it from CL?
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2015, 09:48:13 PM »
On the other hand, lots of good people out there. Like the guy who sold me my bike from n.Carolina.   sent him a check,  he sent the bike. Simple, old school honest folk whose word is their bond.

Question is, How are you Able to Tell?

After you meet and shake hands is one thing (although you can still get fooled pretty bad), but over the phone or via mail, it's impossible without a personal reference of some kind .... ?

Lannis
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Doppelgaenger

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2015, 09:50:15 PM »
Not a craigslist thing, way too long ago for craigslist, but my dad knew a woman who was selling her car. The people came over to look at it and when they did they shot her in the back of the head and threw her in the trunk. I took days before someone reported the car stolen and found her body.

Offline not-fishing

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2015, 04:04:29 AM »
Question is, How are you Able to Tell?

After you meet and shake hands is one thing (although you can still get fooled pretty bad), but over the phone or via mail, it's impossible without a personal reference of some kind .... ?

Lannis

It's called Faith.  I've purchase multiple rifles out of state that way. 

You have to be willing to loose what you send though.

My worst experience was selling an old Swedish Mauser Carbine.
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Offline oldmxdog61u

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2015, 07:28:50 AM »
Faith goes a long way. Also, I view transactions from the basis of, I am buying the persons word as much or more than what I see/hear. So, I look for tells on their credibility.  So far, this has worked for me for most my life. so, I read the person more than the ad.
combine this assessment with faith in good people and it has worked for me.
there are bad people out there with what appear to be good deals.  Avoid those people and good deals seem to "fall in my lap" as my friends say.
I also have made as lot of good friends over the years with this outlook.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 09:19:30 AM »

I was shaken up, end up taking the bike to an HD dealer and they sold it on consignment, lost a little because of the ten percent they take on the deal. Wife didn't want me dealing with Craig's list people and having me turn the thing into the OK corral. She was pissed I even had the rifle stashed in the garage and fired warning shots. She pointed something out...INSURANCE covers stuff like that......I don't think on those terms, I always revert to my killing instincts for some reason.


Yep, you have to be careful, both not to overreact nor to underreact.   Can't shoot them in the back, as much as that might be a good thing for society in the end for this kind of scum; that's above your pay grade and you'd be the one paying the price.

I've found that a little discretion goes a long way with the "faith" thing.   I'd invite anyone on this list over to the house in a second and not think twice about it.   I'd take a check and deliver the goods to anyone even recommended or known by someone I know and trust.  Or use my own judgment if I've met the guy at a rally or something.   Lord knows I've published my address and invitations to the house to enough groups for a motorcycle "do" over the years.

But just a random guy that I know nothing about except an Email?  He's not coming over to my house - I'll trailer the bike-for-sale somewhere else, and I'll be prepared for trouble.   And I'll only go as far into his neighborhood as I'm comfortable with ....

Lannis
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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 11:27:54 AM »
Just saw on the local news yesterday, that the Winchester (VA) police dept. has a location for use by the public to complete Craigslist deals. A room open 24/7 for small stuff and the parking lot for larger ones, both well lit and with camera feeds to the police.
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Offline drums4money

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2015, 12:14:32 PM »
bit on the news this week about local police stations offering up their parking lots as a safe spot for Craigslist transactions.  seems a nice gesture what with security cameras & LEO's on hand.  I wonder how many handgun sales will happen down at the precinct headquarters?
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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2015, 12:31:08 PM »
Someone will bonk me on the head tomorrow but IMHO this is all grossly overstated.  I've sold everything from bikes to pliers on there, bought tons of stuff as well.  These stories make good headlines, though.  Maybe Brian Williams will go undercover on Craigslist and check it out.  If you want, there's a good deal - deal, get it? - more to worry about these days than buggers who are out to get you on your Clist ad.  And yeah, in every situation with a stranger buying from you or you from him, some good common sense should be employed, but that's a given. 

In my experience from Clist, the ridiculous daggers of shite kickers and their reckless misuse of your limited time and attention pose far, FAR more of a real threat to your livelihood and bank. :BEER:

Offline bacongrease

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2015, 12:40:31 PM »
bit on the news this week about local police stations offering up their parking lots as a safe spot for Craigslist transactions.  seems a nice gesture what with security cameras & LEO's on hand.  I wonder how many handgun sales will happen down at the precinct headquarters?


 Probably many.   That's where I would go.   You can't be safer anywhere else.    :BEER:

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2015, 12:46:15 PM »

I can remember them asking me when they arrived why the flag pole flying a Marine flag on the property. Told them I was former RECON.....I remember them both looking at each other as I was saying that....I knew something was going on at that point. I had that feeling just with the telephone conversation and questions asked of me.

Others have probably already told you, you did the right thing.  Now you're not a target and these Idiots will think twice about pulling the same stunt.

My family has a little history of my Uncle Ralph using his shotgun indoors in the middle of the night when a couple of punks were trying to kick down his door.  He lived in West Sac.  He let go with load of birdshot at the top of the door on the inside.  He got "hood" respect and a reputation.  Nobody bothered him again as long as he lived.
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Offline pocphil

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2015, 01:18:59 PM »
If you'd like to hear an entire podcast dedicated to the "Art" of buying and selling motorcycles on Craigslist, we covered the heck out of the topic a few weeks ago, considering between the 5 of us we've probably bought 200+ motorcycles on craigslist we've compiled a lot of valuable experience and consolidated it in to a very easy to read blog posting.

Click The below link to go straight to the MP3 download / player (No Itunes required)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClevelandMotoPodcast/2015+Podcasts/Clevelandmoto+Podcast+77.mp3

www.clevelandmoto.b logspot.com and scroll down to the Jan. 30 podcast "Fourth Anniversary Craigslist Special"

Here's a direct copy from the blog for those who don't want to listen:

12 Steps to buying a used bike online/ebay/craigslist/cycletrader etc.

1. Know what the bike is and what it's worth (and what you're willing to pay) before you even call. Be prepared for a seller to claim it's worth WAY more than it is. If you have a couple of ebay completed auctions printed out this will help your case and prove what they're actually selling for.

 2. The Meet Up: Call first. Get as much information about the vehicle as you can on the phoneand always ask if more photos are available or can be taken, especially of problem areaswhen you get the persons address do a reverse look up and see if that's where they live. Spokeo.com works.

Make an APPOINTMENT to see the bike, be there when you say you will, do not rush right over if you don't have to. If there is any sense of urgency, be careful.

DO NOT BUY IN THE DARK.

If the seller is sketchy or doesn't want you coming to his house, go to a police station or a bank. Of course, if the vehicle in question isnt in running condition, youll have to visit the car where it sits Don't meet someone at their house. Don't meet them in a deserted parking lot or in their van down by the river.

3. Does the person match the title match the bike?
 Get the sellers name - is this the bike on the title, check the VIN?
Size up the seller, Just Assume that the person selling the car is a con artist (unless it's a licensed dealer). Nearly ALL vehicle fraud is committed by private sellers. false paperwork, salvaged vehicles, vehicles with tampered odometers etc. If you find a deal from a private seller that seems too good to be true, it is. Walk away. If this is his brother-in-laws bike, or if he's just waiting to get the title from the he got it from...walk away.


4. WHY ARE YOU SELLING THIS BIKE?   
If you get some complicated story, beware. The more interesting the story, the more likely the seller is trying to trick you. Ask to see maintenance records. Most long term owners keep copious records. If there's a new bike in the driveway, why wouldn't the new bike dealer take it in on trade?

5. Is this a running bike?
Make sure you clarify BEFORE you show up, Running, Reliable and Titled. When was the last time you rode it for more than 30 minutes?
If it is, make sure it's cold when you get there, inspect it COLD. Be nervous about a bike that's hot when you get there.

6. Before you start the motor:
Check the turn signals, horn etc. look for evidence of non-standard wiring
Turn on the fuel tap and look for leaks
Swing the handlebars full left and right to make sure nothing is pulling / binding and to check the headset bearings. Do a good walk around and a pre-flight check, look at the owners manual online before you get there to know what to look for. Look carefully at tires / tubes, they're more expensive than you think.


7. Warm up the bike:
Make the seller start the bike for you, if the bike requires any special starting techniques make sure they tell you Check ALL the pipes to be sure they're warming up evenly.
Look for any leaks
Roll the bike back and forth checking for smooth rolling
chain smooth
brakes working (and releasing!!!)
Do the lights surge when you rev it? (weak battery, bad voltage regulator)


8. Test Ride (you'd better)
Is the bike insured?
If you refuse to let me test ride, why?
Have the seller lead, or follow you if they're nervous.
Let them hold your car keys, license or even some $$$.
Check the play in everything, sloppy = bad maintenance
smooth throttle response both on AND off the idle should return naturally
listen for Rattle from the timing chain
Ride the bike like it's your first time ever, do everything more slowly and listen carefully.
Do several 2nd or 3rd gear roll on's - make the bike go from lug to zoom.
Freeway - you need to go fast enough to detect handling / balance issues
make sure the test ride is long enough to make a liquid cooled bike cycle the system.
Before you return the bike do some figure 8's, tells you a LOT.

9. Now pull the bike in the driveway if it's liquid cooled make sure it idles long enough to cycle the cooling fan, then shut the bike down.
Is the oil milky or frothy, that could be a head gasket!
Let it sit for a few minutes while you remind the seller of EVERY shortcoming you've found.
Restart the bike. A weak charging system or a wet-sumping bike will be hard to restart.

10. NEGOTIATE
Remind the seller of his asking price MINUS what it's going to cost to make it whole.
Never hesitate calling a friend or a shop for a second opinion or estimate for a repair.
Don't just make a $ counter offer without backing it up.
"you're asking $3000, but it needs $500 worth of work, I'll give you $2500"
Remind them of the shortcomings you've found and then ask them "what do you need?"
Never underestimate the power of reminding the seller that you don't really NEED this motorcycle. This is called the Larry Newberry rule, and I'll tell you about it sometime.

11. Bonus Points
'What else do you have for this bike"
You'd be amazed at how much valuable stuff the seller doesn't need once he's sold you the bike.
Is there another bike, boat, gun etc. this guy (who now loves you) wants to sell? At this point they should know you're a quality buyer.

12. The PAPERWORK
Either make your own handwritten bill of sale or download one online, believe it or not, the bill of sale may save your butt if you later discover a small problem with the title. You can even use it to PROVE you are the owner of the vehicle if the title (which is a state document) ever is disputed. Understand how the title you're looking at works, if you're not absolutely sure, don't write on it, let the notary or title bureau help you, once you make a bad mark on the title, you're going to end up having the seller get a duplicate title.
Go to the bank and hand off the cash there, there are notaries there too.


Standard disclaimer, your mileage may vary and I certainly don't claim to be an expert and the podcast is free, for entertainment purposes only. Feel free to chime in with what works for you.
Phil Waters
ClevelandMoto

Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2015, 02:17:13 PM »
I sold a bike to a guy in joisey, it takes all the risk factor away when a guy in a semi truck does all the pickup and delivery and the funds are transfered from bank acct to bank acct. I'm sure the buyer was a good dude, but why take a chance with thousands of dollars and a really sweet Scura?
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2015, 02:57:30 PM »
This  ;-T

 No idea how many transactions occur everyday based on CL ads , guessing in the millions . The odds of something bad happening are probably about the same as getting struck by lightening . Basic precautions , sure , worry too much , no .

  Dusty

I was just reviewing in my mind the transactions that I've made since 1968 ....

Built my first trail bike myself.

Traded it to the local Western Auto for a "Rockford (Benelli) Chibi 60cc, sold that to my brother-in-law.

Bought a CS-3 Yamaha at the Yamaha dealer, sold it to a friend.
Bought an R5 Yamaha at the Yamaha dealer, sold it to a friend.
Bought a 175 Yamaha at the Yamaha dealer, sold it in the Electric Coop classifieds to a stranger from 100 miles away who came and picked it up and paid cash.
Bought a panhead HD dresser from a stranger 20 miles away (classifieds), it was a good bike, as advertised, paid $1200 cash.
Traded the panhead to a friend even-up for a '69 BSA Lightning.   Sold the Lightning to a friend.
Bought a Honda 160 Dream from a friend of Fay's, sold it to another friend of mine.
Bought a new RD400C Yamaha from the Yamaha dealer.   Sold it to a friend at college.
Bought a BSA 441 Victor from a one-man dealer, sold it to a friend.
Bought a new Vespa P200E from a Georgia dealer, sold it to my great-uncle.
Bought a 1954 panhead dresser from a stranger (saw it in his garden and talked him into selling), sold it to a pilot at the local airport who saw it in MY yard and talked me into selling.
Bought a Suzuki teakettle from a local fireman ...
... traded the Kettle to a dealer on a new 1981 R65 BMW.   Sold the BMW to a friend at work.
Bought a '67 Triumph Bonneville from a one-man dealer, sold it to a friend in town.
Bought a new '84 shovelhead dresser from an HD dealer.  Only time I've ever been ripped off.  Dennis Schultz is his name, he's in Pennsylvania somewhere now I think.
Sold the shovelhead to a friend at a local body shop.
Bought a Centauro from a MGNOC member.   Sold it to another MGNOC member.
Bought an Eldo from the West Coast, brokered by Greg Field who vouched for it.   Traded it to a MGNOC member for an SP-NT.
Bought a Cal III from a MGNOC member, sold it to a MGNOC member.
Bought a BSA Firebird from a BSA club member.
Bought a BSA Golden Flash from a BSA club member.
Bought a BSA M21 from a BSA club member.
Bought an '09 Stelvio from a Guzzi dealer.

So that's 34 transactions, they break down to 11 with dealers, 18 with friends or relatives, and only 5 with people I didn't know before.

I guess that's how I express "caution" - I just don't deal with people I don't know ....

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2015, 03:56:41 PM »
If I'd waited to sell the scura to someone I know, I'd still have it. Couldn't even sell it here, but I did get a bunch of calls telling me what was wrong with it. One guy even told me the paint was peeling off the motor and he'd never seen it. I think he called himself The Amazing Kreskin.
Not anti social, pro solitude.

Offline Lannis

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2015, 04:14:02 PM »
If I'd waited to sell the scura to someone I know, I'd still have it. Couldn't even sell it here, but I did get a bunch of calls telling me what was wrong with it. One guy even told me the paint was peeling off the motor and he'd never seen it. I think he called himself The Amazing Kreskin.

Maybe if you actually had a few friends, it wouldn't be so hard .... :o   ;)   :D  :D  :D

Lannis (How does one make that Warner Brothers "WHA wha whaaaa" sound without a mute and a trumpet .... )

"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

bpreynolds

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2015, 04:23:55 PM »
I was just reviewing in my mind the transactions that I've made since 1968 ....

I just don't deal with people I don't know ....

Lannis


And this is why you have no buddies today  ;D :D ;)
Lannis, peddling wares and losing friends since 1968  ;D
I guess it's a sad statement of the company I keep, or me, that I prefer to deal mostly with strangers in business matters.   :-\
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 04:25:21 PM by bpreynolds »

tusong200

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2015, 04:32:45 PM »
???? Buying and/or selling guns on Craigslist ???? Not in my world. What planet are you living on?

Offline Lannis

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Re: Be Careful Selling on Craigslist
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2015, 04:53:42 PM »
And this is why you have no buddies today  ;D :D ;)
Lannis, peddling wares and losing friends since 1968  ;D
I guess it's a sad statement of the company I keep, or me, that I prefer to deal mostly with strangers in business matters.   :-\

Well, when I'm done with a bike, I'm done with it.    I'll generally make people an offer they can't refuse, or let them name the price.   

That way there's no comebacks, no "I paid too much for this POS", because if it is in fact a POS, I advertise and price it that way.   

I'm the opposite of the guy who "sells" on eBay with a "Reserve" or a start price that's over the KBB retail, or who says "If I don't get my price for this, I'll just keep it".   

When I'm ready to sell, I'm not keeping anything, I'm selling it to someone I know for a price that we both know is a good one, and that makes SURE it gets out of my shop onto his trailer ....

So I still have a few buddies!!   :D

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".


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