Author Topic: VW, now THAT is a major problem.  (Read 103467 times)

canuguzzi

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VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« on: September 21, 2015, 07:23:44 PM »
When you start factoring in all the tax credits, subsidies, monies paid for smog checks (where required) and the fix, this is going to cost VW plenty. The good news is that in the short term, if you have a diesel VW the people that want one are going to find them in short supply on the used market, none at dealers so name your price.

Offline grebmrof

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 08:17:10 PM »
...or you might find that no one wants to touch them with a 10 ft pole.  Not sure if when they are properly fixed what that will do to the vaunted mpg they get on diesel fuel.  Interesting story.  Never underestimate the ingenuity of corporations in their quest for profits.  This story seems like it will continue and expand in the coming weeks and months.
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Kentktk

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2015, 08:25:01 PM »
Someone at DOT was probably testing emissions and as is usual for VW/Audi the fuel pump relay failed. The ever vigilant tester then jumped across the 30/87 pins to get the fuel pump working, thus bypassing their ECU trickery........ooo ps! 

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 08:26:32 PM »
There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far.  Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now.  I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in.  I find it hard to believe how if this vehicle is polluting MORE than it should, meaning theoretically I am consuming MORE diesel, why my mileage would get WORSE instead of better.  Something doesn't quite seem correct, unless it's not the consumption of diesel, but some other setting.

A few possible outcomes: 

The extent of the "cheating" is not material and VW fixes whatever is tweaked
or
There is a  recall or some $ incentive provided
or
Unidentified alternative scenario, not yet imagined.

Either way, the car drives smoothly, quietly, runs great, super roomy and delivers a "mildly boring" but convenient commute vehicle.
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 08:26:32 PM »

Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 08:50:44 PM »
Problem is that the software bypass allows higher particulate and NOX emissions. So the fuel amount and mileage shouldn't change but the aftertreatment systems (kinda equivalent to the catalytic converter in cars) were being bypassed. Which apparently led to considerably higher particulate and NOX emissions than advertised, although I'm not sure how those levels compare to older diesels or commercial vehicles or an out-of-tune city bus.

In racing this would be a fine example of "creative rules interpretation" worthy of Gordon Murray or Smokey Yunick. Dealing with government officials who likely hate cars, it's potentially ugly. Oh yeah, and if Christian Horner and Helmut Marko at Red Bull F1 were thinking they were gonna get VW Group money and power, looks like the EPA got there first…
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oldbike54

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 08:55:04 PM »
 We need an engineer to weigh in here and explain what and how .

  Dusty

Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 09:14:42 PM »
Software in the ECU integrated data from steering angle, wheel position and slip, and other sensors to tell if the car was actually in motion or undergoing a static (dyno) test. EPA tests are done as dyno simulations for consistency. And therein lie the differences between EPA estimated mileage and what you really get, since the "highway cycle" is at something like a simulated 50 mph, or was at one time.

All of those sensors are in pretty much every car, for the ABS and electronic stability systems. And there is no tailpipe testing of a car running on the road, for obvious reasons. $$$$ for a start. So some clever person figured out that a certain suite of sensor inputs would occur only during certification testing, and took it from there…

VW diesels typically get far better highway mileage than EPA estimates while hybrids fall far short. Perhaps some up-and-coming EPA test engineer got suspicious? (yeah, I know, government bureaucrat wanting to go beyond barely showing up seems dubious, but perhaps a bit of zealotry was at work) No one else has gotten diesels to work as well as VW. GM has one in the Cruze, I think, but have they sold any? Mazda was going to bring one in a couple of years ago in the Mazda6, but could never get it to run clean enough.

I love the VW diesels, torque, torque, torque, and excellent mileage and fun to drive. Sadly I suspect they're done. Oh well, now then, who's gonna do the first meme mashup of Lance Armstrong in a VW TDI?
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Offline jas67

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 09:18:35 PM »
We need an engineer to weigh in here and explain what and how .

  Dusty

The main pollutant in question is NOx (oxides of nitrogen, but, NO2 and NO3).

In the early to mid 2000's EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) was adding to reduce NOx emissions.   It does this by reducing the amount of oxygen present which reduces combustion temps, and thus reduces NOx emissions.   It also reduces efficiency (lower MPG), and increases particulate (soot) emissions.

So, next the EPA forces the auto (and truck) makers to reduce particulate emissions.    So, along domes the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).    In order to periodically (as frequently as every 100 miles), a "regen cycle" is run, which basically burns fuel in the DPF to burn off the soot.    This,of course further reduces overall fuel economy some more.

The latest in diesel emissions systems is DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid, which is urea, which isn't a lot unlike urine, and contains ammonia) injection.   This system reduces NOx emissions, allowing for reduced use of EGR and DPF, getting back some of the lost fuel economy at the expense of even more complexity, and the need to periodically refill the DEF tank.

AFAIK, this recall will likely only affect the non DEF equipped cars.    It will likely force them to run more EGR and DPF cycles to reduces NOx emissions.

This WILL reduce fuel economy by a measurable amount.   This WILL piss off everyone with an affected car, considering that fuel economy was the reason to choose a diesel to begin with.   My wife & I chose VW diesels over hybrids because with both enjoy driving a car with a proper manual transmission, which you can't get with a hybrid.

One of our cars is out of warranty, and the other soon will be.   My plan is to avoid taking our cars to a VW dealer at all costs, as, they will be required by law to install the software "upgrade" that "fixes" the emissions on any car that passes through their hands.
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Offline PJPR01

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 09:19:59 PM »
Thanks Jas...mine does require the Urea treatment and is also a 6 speed manual...as much fun as one can have in a sedate sedan!

Timing of this issue couldn't be more coincidental.  Tonight I received an email blast from my VW dealer offering discounts on service, oil change etc.  Took advantage of that to ask the service manager sending the mail what he knows about the EPA issue...will be interesting to see what they reply tomorrow morning!

Worst case scenario - they do a recall and give money back...or they have to fix it somehow, but I find it hard to believe the fix would create even any sort of impact on mileage.  Shit...I can drive from Houston to El Paso on one tank of diesel...that's pretty incredible!  If they give money back...well then...may have to add another Guzzi to the garage!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:23:56 PM by PJPR01 »
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canuguzzi

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2015, 09:20:12 PM »
My understanding from reports is that while the software doesn't affect fuel economy a significant degree, it does affect performance so that zippy diesel could become more sedate.

That could be a huge deal for those that bought a VW diesel after a test drive showed that a diesel doesn't have to be in the barely adequate range when it comes to acceleration. Older diesels seem to hold their values pretty good.

No free lunch, either performance or fuel economy has to suffer and enough to warrant the company going to such lengths to do what they did.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:22:57 PM by Norge Pilot »

Offline PJPR01

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 09:25:30 PM »
I'd have to guess that 9/10 folks buy a diesel for mileage not for the 0-60 time...so even if it's a bit more sluggish after the fix, as long as mileage stays above 40 mpg, I'm ok with it.  This vehicle isn't for racing anyway...that's what the other toys are for!  :)
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oldbike54

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 09:33:53 PM »
 Thanks CR and Jay , all very interesting , even though a diesel car is not in my future .


 
I'd have to guess that 9/10 folks buy a diesel for mileage not for the 0-60 time...so even if it's a bit more sluggish after the fix, as long as mileage stays above 40 mpg, I'm ok with it.  This vehicle isn't for racing anyway...that's what the other toys are for!  :)

 Probably true Paul .

  Dusty

Offline John Ulrich

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2015, 09:35:48 PM »
Someone at DOT was probably testing emissions and as is usual for VW/Audi the fuel pump relay failed. The ever vigilant tester then jumped across the 30/87 pins to get the fuel pump working, thus bypassing their ECU trickery........ooo ps!

How it was discovered will be a very interesting story!!!
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2015, 09:39:45 PM »
http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/

here's the story

When the International Council on Clean Transportation began to look into discrepancies in the emissions of several Volkswagen diesel vehicles in early 2014, it was with the sincerest of intentions. Noting that the U.S. had stricter and more rigorously enforced emissions laws that Volkswagen�s TDI-equipped cars routinely passed without problems, the ICCT figured performing some tests on U.S. soil would provide them with a good control model. Enlisting the help of West Virginia University�s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines, and Emissions (CAFEE) to assist with the real-world testing, it seemed the data would soon reveal the root of the inconsistencies. But when the results gathered via real-world testing were compared with the compliant numbers generated in the lab by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), it was clear something wasn�t kosher in dieselburg......... ......

“Developing an engine software to optimize certain aspects of an operation cycle that you know the parameters of is a challenge, but it is very possible,” says Thiruvengadam. “Knowing when to switch to the EPA-favorable cycle is the trick; it could be set up to detect the absence of steering-wheel movement, or, and this is known, we often turn off the traction control for testing purposes.” Either way, the result is the same: it turns the emissions controls on for EPA testing and off for real-world driving. Somewhat ironically, the presumed benefits of turning off the controls for normal driving include improved fuel economy and engine power.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:43:31 PM by LowRyter »
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oldbike54

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2015, 09:45:56 PM »
 Thanks John .

  Dusty

canuguzzi

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2015, 09:51:39 PM »
I'd have to guess that 9/10 folks buy a diesel for mileage not for the 0-60 time...so even if it's a bit more sluggish after the fix, as long as mileage stays above 40 mpg, I'm ok with it.  This vehicle isn't for racing anyway...that's what the other toys are for!  :)

Probably true until this happened. Now I'm guessing 9/10 folks who bought one will line up for the checks.

I winder if it is something like a map that could be saved and reloaded if the fix creates undesired effects. Cat bypass pipes and removing canisters and loading up maps seems to be okay, this wouldn't be all the different would it?

Offline PJPR01

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2015, 10:11:08 PM »
Could be Norge Pilot, and if that happens, that's OK too, as it's not the end of the world though as long as the buy back value is fair...take the money and go shopping for another vehicle. 
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Offline normzone

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2015, 10:19:17 PM »
GM is buying their way out of the ignition switch deaths coverup for just under a billion, nobody going to jail, and some firings. If they can do that then I doubt VW can do worse...
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2015, 10:43:13 PM »
VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2015, 11:10:01 PM »
I bought my '09 TDI Jetta last year. LOVE it!!! It may not be fast but it is quick and nimble as all get out. It FEELs like a sports car with the six speed manual. Goes like it's on rails over the mountains. My understanding is that the recall will be a software fix to reduce power to get the emissions back to allowable levels. I'm not giving that up. I'll avoid the recall at all cost. I don't live anywhere near a dealer so I've got that going.


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Offline rocker59

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2015, 11:11:03 PM »
Well, yes, there is.  In California, all smog testing is done on a dyno.  VW must've used a different set of sensors to determine that a test was underway.

Easy.  The front wheels are rolling on the dyno.  The back wheels aren't rolling.  Static test in progress...
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Offline tris

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2015, 01:26:53 AM »
There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far.  Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now.  I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in.....

I have a very similar car in that its a 2012 2.0l TDI CR with DPF fitted Skoda Octavia with 60k+ miles on the clock

Mine does 60MPG (50 US MPG) all day everyday and  I've seen 70MPG (58 US MPG) on a run

Now mine is a  6 speed manual and I guess yours is an auto but is that enough to make the difference given the auto should lock up at highway speeds?
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Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2015, 04:34:51 AM »
Smart, successful businesspeople made the determination that the sales/marketing gain from this ruse warranted the huge potential risk from being caught. They either weren't smart (maybe) or more likely they understood that the odds of being caught were very small in which case this is the tip of the iceberg and we should expect similar shenanigans from all the auto companies.  VW wasn't knows as particularly slimy after all.
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Online Trevor G

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2015, 05:01:25 AM »
No one else has gotten diesels to work as well as VW.

Maybe in the US, but in the rest of the world PSA (who produce Citroen and Peugeot and are the fifth biggest auotmobile manufacturers) have far superior technology and lower pollution.  They have been running particulate filters for at least ten years in Australia now.

I never see any smoke from PSA cars with PFs, but always used to see ugly black smoke from VWs in Aus.

Even particulate filters are old hat now, diesel trucks and some diesel cars here now run Ad-Blue which is basically liquid urea, injectected into the exhaust to kill NOx emissions.

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2015, 05:06:59 AM »
I have a very similar car in that its a 2012 2.0l TDI CR with DPF fitted Skoda Octavia with 60k+ miles on the clock

Mine does 60MPG (50 US MPG) all day everyday and  I've seen 70MPG (58 US MPG) on a run

Now mine is a  6 speed manual and I guess yours is an auto but is that enough to make the difference given the auto should lock up at highway speeds?

Can you tell what speeds you drive at to get those figures?

Are you going off the trip computer or actually doing the calculations at the pump?

Offline grebmrof

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2015, 05:35:59 AM »
VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?

So Charlie it was the Toyota Prius engineers who ratted VW out!  I think there will be other manufacturers who may be caught doing something similar to this.  And here I was somewhat regretting buying a Jetta with a 1.8 turbo engine - I just couldn't justify the additional expense for their diesel, although I thought their mpg was fantastic...guess just a little too fantastic, as it may turn out.  What an interesting story this is.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2015, 06:05:33 AM »
Is that any worse than our beloved Moto Guzzi turning out bikes that run really lean to pass California emission standards knowing full well that the owners are going to remove the cans and re-map?
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Offline pikipiki

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2015, 06:50:48 AM »
VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?
You mean the coincidence:
In US
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BP UKs biggest company sued for billions despite fault being a US contractor.
Now Germany biggest company sued for billions.
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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2015, 07:52:30 AM »
VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?

Being a lover of conspiracies, I note that VW USA employees recently chose to vote against union membership--to the dismay of VW HQ itself, and of course the White House. The Chicago Way is to punish people for failing to toe the party line, so maybe VW was now under especially close federal regulatory scrutiny...

Or as Mayor Daley might have said, "We have to scrutin them."
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Offline jas67

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Re: VW, now THAT is a major problem.
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2015, 08:00:09 AM »
Volkswagen says that an internal investigation has revealed that 11 million of its vehicles sold worldwide are fitted with the same software designed to trick emissions testing equipment as the 500,000 vehicles involved in an emerging scandal in the United States.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/09/22/volkswagen-says-11-million-its-cars-are-equipped-with-emissions-test-beating/

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