Author Topic: What is more attractive to you about the Guzzi V-twin vs. the Harley V-twin  (Read 86119 times)

Online tazio

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2730
Thanks for explanation Kev.
After I posted question I guessed that it may have had something to do with
keeping our dangly parts from getting toasty...
Current Fleet
2015 Moto-Guzzi GRiSO
1972 Aermacchi Harley-Davidson 350 Sprint
1967 Kawasaki 650 W2TT
1966 Triumph Bonneville

Offline Groover

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2855
  • If it ain't broke, I'll break it.
    • Scooteropolis
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
Here Here!  The sound of a Guzzi at full throttle with modest exhaust relief certainly stirs my motorcycling soul.

Right after that, I'd say the sound of a Guzzi engine on deceleration (fully closed throttle) at high speed going though a tunnel.

1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
1980 Vespa Grande Moped
1980 Vespa SI Moped
http://scooteropolis.com/

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 30431
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Hard to compare Buells to Sportsters, though.  The Buells are much lighter and have a lot more power.

Here are some potentially interesting comparisons.

Tube Frame Buells:

96 Buell ST2 59 rwhp / 64 ft. lbs. 517# wet
97 Buell S3   74 rwhp / 70 ft. lbs. 496# wet
99 Buell X1   84 rwhp / 73 ft. lbs. 495# wet
99 Buell S3T 90 rwhp / 70 ft. lbs. 514# wet

Box Frame Buells:

02 Buell XB9R   75 rwhp / 60 ft. lbs. 450# wet
03 Buell XB12S 85 rwhp / 71 ft. lbs. 462# wet
06 Buell XB12S 81 rwhp / 68 ft. lbs. 471# wet


Rubbermount Sportsters:

10 883L (Superlow) 48 rwhp / 48 ft. lbs. 567# wet

07 1200N (Nightster) 57 rwhp / 64 ft. lbs. 564# wet
12 1200V                  55 rwhp / 60 ft. lbs. 560# wet
13 1200X (48)           60 rwhp / 65 ft. lbs. 551# wet

09 XR1200                79 rwhp / 68 ft. lbs. 580# wet


Now what these numbers don't tell us is about the differences in brakes/handling, the Buell's generally having shorter wheelbases, great brakes, and great handling compared to lower/slower/heavier handling nature of most Sportys (at least stock).

But you see the current Sportys are approaching some of the performance numbers of the tube-framed Buells, but they are still plus about 50-60#.

The XR 1200 came the closest, though it was still porky by at least 60#.

None of the Sportys really get to the level of the XB Buells in weight/handling or especially power-to-weight ratios.

But it's not uncommon for a Stage I (air cleaner, pipes, and tuner) EFI 1200 Sportster to be putting down 80 rwhp / 80 ft. lbs. and there are a number of 100 hp builds out there which require some additional head work and cams, and often include a 1250cc kit while they're at it.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Rough Edge racing

  • Guest
  There are Harleys out there making serious power...The main issue with Harley performance is the reluctance of many riders to install a real tuned exhaust system rather than the power restricting shorty duals .... 
 

Wildguzzi.com


Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 30431
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
  There are Harleys out there making serious power...The main issue with Harley performance is the reluctance of many riders to install a real tuned exhaust system rather than the power restricting shorty duals ....

 :cool:

http://www.avinton.fr/galeries-en/#top

SS engine, tank under seat, relatively light, more torque than hp.... and it has 120hp!!!!




Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Offline cookiemech

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
  • Location: West Newton, PA
Kinda funny, asking (mainly) Guzzi owners what's more attractive about their bikes . . .

I own both (Aluminium, plus two H-D Touring bikes). $$$ is not an issue. If I cared about cost, I wouldn't ride, because motorcycles are not cost-effective when compared with (economy) cars.

For many years, I didn't have anything to do with Harleys, because of my view of the sort who rode them. That's an idiotic point of view, in my opinion, because even if MOST H-D riders have subnormal IQs, who cares?

Turns out that modern Harleys are very well-built and run very nicely, particularly in stock configuration. Of my eight bikes, I like my Road King more than any other, on a nice day, with no pressing destination in mind. It handles well, has plenty of power for any reasonable urge, and is extremely comfortable.

My Moto Guzzi, on the other hand, is very attractive. The engineer and perfectionist in me likes the bilateral symmetry, with the jugs both out in the wind for good cooling (I like BMW twins as well, and have owned a few). Friends have told me that the Aluminium is the prettiest bike in my garage (not sure I agree, but these are non-motorcyclists). I like its different-ness. The world around here seems full of Harleys. Not so with MG.

Wouldn't own it as my only bike, but I never tire of looking at it. I'd dump it in a heartbeat over my Road King.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 03:24:07 PM by cookiemech »

Gary

  • Guest
The main reasons I prefer the Guzzi:

1. Driveshaft - and don't bother to tell that a belt drive is just as good. I don't care
2. I don't want to have to get a tattoo
3. I prefer not to have to wear earplugs at idle
4. I hate seeing myself coming and going. HD's too conformist
5. I like Italian motorcycles and German cars
6. I don't like the paint shaker idle
7. Ride to eat / Eat to ride is not my cup of tea
8. I don't have a beer belly and really don't want one
9. I don't want to wear a beanie helmet
10. I don't want to spend more for a Harley than Miata

Lcarlson

  • Guest
I spent a week on a new Road King in Utah last June. It inspired me to a get cruiser again. Much as I liked the King, though, I wanted something less common, and had never owned a Guzzi. A test ride on the Cali revealed a remarkably agile cruiser with high style and panache, so it was a done deal.  On a thread-related note, I also owned a Buell M2 Cyclone for a decade. It was neat, unusual motorcycle, and I'm kind of sorry I sold it.

oldbike54

  • Guest
:cool:

http://www.avinton.fr/galeries-en/#top

SS engine, tank under seat, relatively light, more torque than hp.... and it has 120hp!!!!







 Uh , those ain't a Harley  :evil:

  Dusty

Offline Bonafide Bob

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
  • Location: Covington,Louisiana
Uh , those ain't a Harley  :evil:

  Dusty

Nope, but they sure are pretty and I bet a lot of fun to ride.
Bob
We have freedom of speech, as long as we don't say to much.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 29445
Better looking and smarter riders on Guzzis :laugh:

true.. true.  :smiley:

Look, I get it. I like the feel of the Harley engine. The bikes are anachronisms, though.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Rough Edge racing

  • Guest
 Rather than spend a pile of cash on the bikes above, just do what I did... $2500 tube frame Buell, 500 bucks for the induction system and chain drive...Bike is an absolute pisser for a fast ride on back roads....

       
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 06:17:40 PM by Rough Edge racing »

Offline steven c

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4145
  • Location: Broad Brook CT
 That's what a modern Sportster should be.
2020 V85TT Traveler
74 949 Eldorado


75 Benelli 250
2006 Buell Ulysses
78 Honda XL125

MGNOC 6412

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 30431
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
Uh , those ain't a Harley  :evil:

  Dusty

Duh, but the S&S motor is based on the EVO loosely speaking, so they're genetically related.

Kinda like another view of what Buell could have done if allowed to.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

oldbike54

  • Guest
Duh, but the S&S motor is based on the EVO loosely speaking, so they're genetically related.

Kinda like another view of what Buell could have done if allowed to.

 OK , but since it is you that likes to parse out every detail , these aren't a Harley  :evil: Loosely speaking or not  :rolleyes:

 Dusty

Offline Sheepdog

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5575
  • 2007 Moto Guzzi California Vintage
  • Location: Waldheim, Louisiana. USA
When I bought my Vintage, I did seriously consider a Road King. It was gorgeous, had the kit I wanted, and was really comfortable. However, the weight and lousy cornering clearance was just a deal breaker. I felt like I could deal with the shortfalls on the Vintage (seat, windshield, and fuel map), but there was no way that Harley was going to take off 175 pounds. Before the Vintage, I was always a mid-sized bike guy. Up until then, a '74 Norton 850 was my biggest bike. The Road Kings and most of the "Bagger" genre were so huge and ponderous that I have never developed a serious interest.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." John C. Maxwell

Offline JoeW

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2483
    • The Guzzi Doctor
The reasons I ride a Guzzi and not a Harley are these,
1, When I started riding, only outlaws, old men and cops rode Harleys. I didn't fall into any of those categories
2, I like performance, acceleration, top speed, braking and handling. Guzzi surpasses Harley on all counts, except a drag race for the first 100 feet.
3, I don't need to own a certain brand of bike to make friends. I have plenty of friends, some even ride Harleys.
Joe Walano

Offline Tobit

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2504
I like both.  Anyone who hasn't ridden a recent HD could be surprised.  I rented a 2014 Street Glide 103 recently for a long weekend.  Bone stock, pipes and all.  100mph with ease and power to leave normal traffic way back in the vibration free mirrors.  It was far more comfy than my Cal III Touring and LeMans IV.  Gorgeous engine and it handled unknown twistys far better than expected.  Downside?  Suspension and price.  The question I asked myself repeatedly was why bother with loud pipes, screaming eagle, etc?  The powertrain is a gem.

Now, as posted earlier in this thread, a well displayed Guzzi 2 valve BB is a gorgeous thing that delivers on it's looks.  There's just no reason to have to choose.  Fwiw, I rarely ride my LeMans anymore but I'll be renting a Road Glide next.  I like the little ego stroke of riding something different, the Guzzi, and as far as people go, I met very nice, educated HD riders on my rental weekend.

Tobit

« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 08:24:58 PM by Tobit »
Roman, '86 LM IV

I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol

Online bad Chad

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 9551
  • Location: Central Il
I like both.  Anyone who hasn't ridden a recent HD could be surprised.  I rented a 2014 Street Glide 103 recently for a long weekend.  Bone stock, pipes and all.  100mph with ease and power to leave normal traffic way back in the vibration free mirrors.  It was far more comfy than my Cal III Touring and LeMans IV.  Gorgeous engine and it handled unknown twistys far better than expected.  Downside?  Suspension and price.  The question I asked myself repeatedly was why bother with loud pipes, screaming eagle, etc?  The powertrain is a gem.

Now, as posted earlier in this thread, a well displayed Guzzi 2 valve BB is a gorgeous thing that delivers on it's looks.  There's just no reason to have to choose.  Fwiw, I rarely ride my LeMans anymore but I'll be renting a Road Glide next.  I like the little ego stroke of riding something different, the Guzzi, and as far as people go, I met very nice, educated HD riders on my rental weekend.


Tobit

Well at 1700cc, I would hope it could get out of its own way!  Hard to compare a Lemans IV to this beast, as the RK has well over 700cc on the Guzzi!
2007 Breva 1100  Red Arrow (and faster than yours!)
2016 CSC 250TT Zongshen
2017 V9 Roamer

Offline kingoffleece

  • SplitWeight(tm) seat covers
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4014
  • Rated 5 STARS Motorcycle Consumer News
  • Location: Valley of the Sun
I've had 4 H-D'S and they were all ok.  They in no way remind me of my Guzzi motors-V7 and Norge.  Not one bit.  The MG motor also doesn't feel nearly as much like the 88 Twin Cam my friend rides.  The HD motor feels much more like my Triumph Thunderbird 1600 than either of my bikes or any Guzzi I've had the pleasure to pilot.
SplitWeight(tm) seat covers. A King of Fleece LLC product.

Offline redrider90

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2448
  • Location: NC
OK , but since it is you that likes to parse out every detail , these aren't a Harley  :evil: Loosely speaking or not  :rolleyes:

 Dusty


You beat me to it Dusty. Buell's are not Harley Davidson. They just run an HD power plant. After that it is all Buell. They are distant cousins as far as I am concerned. Buell built them to compete with Ducati and give those sport HD riders something that Harley was not making: a sport MC with a Harley power plant. Buell is the odd man out when comparing talking about HDs.
Red 90 Mille GT

Offline SmithSwede

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2113
  • I don't want a pickle
  • Location: Dallas, Texas
I'm still not convinced about Harley rear cylinder not running hot.  Not saying Kev M is wrong, just that I'm not convinced and would like more evidence.  I dunno much about Harleys. 

Just doesn't seem right to me.   For example, I would think air cooling proportional to velocity of the air.   So how can an exhaust collar that is directly in fresh cooling air on the front cylinder not be cooler than one on the rear cylinder that is not directly in the airstream, and is only cooled indirectly by air that has passed over TWO cylinders in front of it?


For example, how definitive is a infrared scope reading on the heads taken at rest, as opposed to at speed?  Anyone have more accurate cylinder head temp readings at speed?    What about that rear facing exhaust--is that area not significantly hotter than the front?

Any data from Harley mechanics?   For example, does the exhaust valve on the front cylinder last longer than the one on the rear?

And even if the two cylinders are comparable in temperature, how do we know it's because the air cooling was equally effective?   Does the rear cylinder run richer than the front?  Is the ignition advance on the rear different from the front?

I'm not arguing, and don't claim to know the correct answer.  Just curious. 
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline redrider90

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2448
  • Location: NC
Air flow is only one component on how hot an engine (heads) will run. Oil flow (and capacity), gearing, weight to power ratio, carburation, exhaust, body work, including even windshields, saddle bags/aerodynamics  that put a drag on the big are just a few I can think of. What about the castings of the jugs/ heads. All metal does not transmit heat equally. Fin size: isn't that why Guzzi went to the square fin for the 1000 cc to increase heat dissipation.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:06:12 AM by redrider90 »
Red 90 Mille GT

Rough Edge racing

  • Guest
  Many Evo Harley riders report over 100,000 miles before the engine needs to to be disassembled for repairs.. I would say cooling is not an issue for bikes ridden within the design limits...
 The older Shovelheads could have shorter lifespans with head temperatures over 300F when pulling a grade on a hot day.

Offline leafman60

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6795
Oh lord. Here we go again.

I've tried to avoid posting on this thread. Non-H-D riders seem to be obsessed with dissing The Motor Company. Most of the time, the negative comments are based largely on ignorance and no experience riding the Big Twins, especially the ones built in the last decade or two.

I like both Guzzi and Harley.

Really, one can like more than one brand!  I promise.  It's okay.

Modern Harley Davidson bikes are extremely reliable and extremely low maintenance.  Not even Guzzi can match them in this regard. You don't have all the fiddling and major problems with H-D that you do with so many of the European bikes.  Just scroll through our own WG thread topics and take a look.

H-D dealer availability and support is supreme. The H-D's do not leak oil and the rear cylinders do not cause problems.

The market for motorcycles is heavily weighted towards cruiser styling and ergonomics. Hence, many H-D models are not intended to be sport bikes. Although their standard-suspended bikes will handle better than many would expect, upgrading their suspension can make a H-D that will handle with just about anything.

H-D outsells everybody else by a wide margin.  My local, medium-sized H-D dealer sells more H-D's in a year that Guzzi sells in ALL of the USA AND Canada in a year. If H-D's were beset with problems, this would not be so.

With such a dominant brand, you find riders of all sorts.  I do not aspire to the leather fringe, chaps and pirate get-ups you often see with the cruiser guys. However, you see greater numbers of long-distance H-D riders than anything else and they do not all fit that stereotype. You also see more than you'd expect with their bikes jacked up with H-D performance shocks or Ohlins or other bits and they are cutting some tight curves in the mountains.

As far as the appearance and demographic of riders, take a good look around at your next rally of any sort. No offense intended.  Just saying.

One final jab.  Even though the old Harleys commonly bear the brunt of criticism, I have a 38-year-old Shovelhead with 110,000 miles on the original engine except for a top-end valve job. It has never broken or left me stranded in the 38 years I've owned it. That is something I cannot say about any of the other many bikes I've owned. I regularly ride the Shovel at 80+ and it still tops out at about 110.

Anyway, this is a Guzzi forum.  I realize that.  I just had to inject a correction to some of the comments.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 07:17:52 AM by leafman60 »

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 30431
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
OK , but since it is you that likes to parse out every detail , these aren't a Harley  :evil: Loosely speaking or not  :rolleyes:

 Dusty

That's like saying the early Garlic Injuns weren't Harleys.

They ran an aftermarket Softail frame and S&S motor, so similar to the Harley Softails my buddy often sources parts (like a primary assembly) from Harley.

Yeah it's semantics and obviously neither was produced by Harley (like an early Buell), but the DNA is obvious. The motor is more Harley than anything else. It's certainly not JAPanINC., nor is it Polaris, or Triumph, or BMW, or Ducati, or Guzzi etc.

So loosely speaking it's more Harley than not, even if it's not a "HARLEY".  :rolleyes:
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 30431
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
I've had 4 H-D'S and they were all ok.  They in no way remind me of my Guzzi motors-V7 and Norge.  Not one bit.  The MG motor also doesn't feel nearly as much like the 88 Twin Cam my friend rides.  The HD motor feels much more like my Triumph Thunderbird 1600 than either of my bikes or any Guzzi I've had the pleasure to pilot.

What Harleys did you own? Because if we're nit picking there's a bigger difference between a BT and a Sporty power plant than many realize.

And what would you liken the character of the V7 or 2V big block motors to in terms of power/torque delivery and feel, and rpm range?

Certainly not an L4 or triple, not a parallel twin, not a Ducati. Maybe they span some position between an opposed twin and a Harley, but I personally find the more visceral nature of the motor closer related more to my Harleys (closer to Sportsters).

Don't get me wrong there are differences, plenty in some ways. But nothing comes to mind that the Guzzis are more similar too either.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 10:53:48 AM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

oldbike54

  • Guest
That's like saying the early Garlic Injuns weren't Harleys.

They ran an aftermarket Softail frame and S&S motor, so similar to the Harley Softails my buddy often sources parts (like a primary assembly) from Harley.

Yeah it's semantics and obviously neither was produced by Harley (like an early Buell), but the DNA is obvious. The motor is more Harley than anything else. It's certainly not JAPanINC., nor is it Polaris, or Triumph, or BMW, or Ducati, or Guzzi etc.

So loosely speaking it's more Harley than not, even if it's not a "HARLEY".  :rolleyes:

 Those were waisicu bikes .

  Dusty

Online Kev m

  • Not your normal Hombre
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 30431
  • Yo from Medford, NJ
I'm still not convinced about Harley rear cylinder not running hot.  Not saying Kev M is wrong, just that I'm not convinced and would like more evidence.  I dunno much about Harleys. 

Just doesn't seem right to me.   For example, I would think air cooling proportional to velocity of the air.   So how can an exhaust collar that is directly in fresh cooling air on the front cylinder not be cooler than one on the rear cylinder that is not directly in the airstream, and is only cooled indirectly by air that has passed over TWO cylinders in front of it?


For example, how definitive is a infrared scope reading on the heads taken at rest, as opposed to at speed?  Anyone have more accurate cylinder head temp readings at speed?    What about that rear facing exhaust--is that area not significantly hotter than the front?

Any data from Harley mechanics?   For example, does the exhaust valve on the front cylinder last longer than the one on the rear?

And even if the two cylinders are comparable in temperature, how do we know it's because the air cooling was equally effective?   Does the rear cylinder run richer than the front?  Is the ignition advance on the rear different from the front?

I'm not arguing, and don't claim to know the correct answer.  Just curious.


There are other factors and I cited many of them.

Air fuel mixture may play a part on carbureted models (which I believe we're more prone to showing higher temps in front). But that's a complicated issue since Weber-Marelli discovered in the 90's how weird the shared intact tract on the narrow Harley V behaves. There's turbulence in that manifold which is constantly changing incoming charge on both cylinders when at idle.

It may also have to do with the irregular ignition timing, one cylinder closely following the other.

Static readings are normally taken immediately after operation at speed so I discount that objection.

And again I think you're feeling into the trap of assuming air is linear. The front cylinder often has air being blocked by things like the forks, engine guards, regulator, and/or horn which complicates things.

The rear cylinder is being air pulled it from the sides. I don't think there's much of a vacuum being created.

Bottom line I'm saying that there seems to be no actual advantage in the real world unless we assume the power/running differences that have evolved into a seeming preference somehow evolved as a result of these differences and I guess that's possible.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

Online rocker59

  • Global Moderator
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 24010
  • "diplomatico di moto"
  • Location: NW Arkansas
My splayed-out knees helped direct air to the rear cylinder of my Sportsters.

While I never measured the temps with any device, I never noticed the rear being noticeably hotter.
Michael T.
Aux Arcs de Akansea
2004 California EV Touring II
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here