Author Topic: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed  (Read 4430 times)

Offline GuzziChris

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Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« on: April 13, 2016, 06:47:18 AM »
Hi folks, my used 2008 Scrambler came with an uninstalled Renthal bar, now I know why it's not installed. Looks like the PO butchered the Phillips head screw that secures the throttle assembly housing to the stock bar - easy to do I suppose, it's a soft crappy Phillips head, very easy to butcher. I believe it's an M5x22. I took a dremel to it to cut a slot for a flathead screw driver, but no luck, it's not budging and the new slot is also not holding up to the torque (lousy pot metal!!!).
What's the proper next course of action? One of those screw extractor kits? The screw itself is pretty small, I'm not sure I can drill a hole in it big enough for an extractor to "bite" adequately, that screw is in there very tight.
Thoughts that might help the clueless?
Thanks in advance.  :boozing:

ponti_33609

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2016, 07:02:36 AM »
I have had luck with one of the tools that is a screw drive-type tool that is heavy metal 

(http://www.sears.com/craftsman-impact-driver/p-00947641000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&gclid=Cj0KEQjw3Le4BRDxx5bk4aDn9t4BEiQAfmxQGciG6L1D9Ssdbb4RJjqukcywMgM72je_1DpZjIDJIN0aAsyf8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds). 

You strike it with a hammer and turns counter clockwise as you strike it.  I have had great success on old jap bikes with similar issues.  Where you cut a slot I am thinking this might work.

Online John A

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2016, 07:10:53 AM »
http://www.richtoolsystems.com/10-Piece-Multi-Spline-Screw-Extractor-Set_p_526.html?source=cashback



I would try an extractor like this. It may pop the head off but that would be ok. You may need to drill the head off anyway. If you can get the assembly off you can work on it on the bench or take it to your friendly machine shop. Some judicious heat on the housing around the screw will help. You might consider buying a new assembly anyway, or at least find one so you are ready in case......
If you try an impact like Ponti suggests, have someone hold a backup on the assembly with a hammer head or handle and that could work
Where are you located? I have all the stuff you need here
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 07:19:02 AM by John A »
John
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 07:18:18 AM »
I'd just drill the head off and be done with it. If you couldn't get it to budge with a screwdriver in the slot, I'll bet an eze out won't get it, either. Once you drill the head off and get it apart, you can get some vise grips on the screw.
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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2016, 07:18:18 AM »

Offline GuzziChris

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2016, 07:28:33 AM »
John, I'm in CT, but thanks for the offer. I don't understand how removing the screw head will help me - this is a threaded "clamshell" assembly, so I need to back it out of the rear piece (if that makes and sense at all) to get the clamshell apart. Somehow I have to back this sucker out or (I would think) cut the whole damned thing off. If that's the case, I'm gonna use the stock bar until I sell the bike, not worth the hassle and expense. Thanks

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2016, 07:31:04 AM »
There must be something I don't understand of your explanation. How about a picture?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Mike Tashjian

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2016, 07:40:13 AM »
http://www.toolstoday.com/images/Product/medium/6071.jpg   Once you drill the head off the screw may release and spin right out.  If not use a smaller drill and go right thru.  Run a tap to clear the threads and use a new bolt.  Mike

Online John A

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2016, 07:43:50 AM »
Chuck and I are picturing the screw heads holding the clamshell together
John
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Offline mtiberio

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2016, 07:56:32 AM »
I'd just drill the head off and be done with it. If you couldn't get it to budge with a screwdriver in the slot, I'll bet an eze out won't get it, either. Once you drill the head off and get it apart, you can get some vise grips on the screw.

+1

oldbike54

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2016, 08:23:49 AM »
John, I'm in CT, but thanks for the offer. I don't understand how removing the screw head will help me - this is a threaded "clamshell" assembly, so I need to back it out of the rear piece (if that makes and sense at all) to get the clamshell apart. Somehow I have to back this sucker out or (I would think) cut the whole damned thing off. If that's the case, I'm gonna use the stock bar until I sell the bike, not worth the hassle and expense. Thanks

 If you drill the head off the case should simply slide over the remains of the screw .

 Dusty

Online Rich A

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2016, 08:50:08 AM »
And make that a left-handed bit if you can find one.

Rich A

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2016, 10:14:51 AM »
And make that a left-handed bit if you can find one.

Rich A

I have had good luck using left hand (cut counter clockwise) bits. Butchered screws come out much easier than expected.
http://www.harborfreight.com/left-hand-drill-bit-set-13-pc-61686.html
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Offline Groover

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2016, 11:07:17 AM »
As most have suggested, drill the head off. Also, I was hoping you'd have a chance to try this trick I saw the other day. I haven't tried it myself, so not sure if it actually works for non-wood type screws (it should)

The rubberband trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q61IrNfRstI

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 11:23:10 AM »
As most have suggested, drill the head off. Also, I was hoping you'd have a chance to try this trick I saw the other day. I haven't tried it myself, so not sure if it actually works for non-wood type screws (it should)

The rubberband trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q61IrNfRstI

I have a dollar that sez that won't work on a frozen machine screw.. :smiley: :boozing:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 12:05:48 PM »
BEFORE YOU MUCK IT UP ANY FURTHER OR REMOVE ANY MORE METAL:

It may not work but it absolutely won't hurt.

Works over 85% of the time for me.


Drop on some Kroil or other quality penetrant or make your own acetone/ATF mix... WALK AWAY FOR A DAY!

Return with the very best contacting screwdriver you have be it flat-tip or cross-tip. You want as much contact towards the center axis of the screw as possible in trying to shift the threads.

Give the screwdriver a couple-three hefty taps and the barest of attempts to unscrew it - don't commit to it and mar the screw more.

If it does not come out, add some more penetrant and tap it a bit though not hard.... WALK AWAY!

Try one more time the next day - if it does not loosen, it's a whole other scenario.

In the midst of the above, heating with; Soldering iron, heat gun or hair dryer may increse the performance of your penetrant.



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Offline mtiberio

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 01:31:17 PM »
I learned this recently, and didn't believe it until I tried it and it worked like a charm. by all means try kroil first, but then...

put a dab of valve grinding compound on the tip of the screw driver. will absolutely make the tip grab the head of the fastener...

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2016, 01:37:47 PM »
I learned this recently, and didn't believe it until I tried it and it worked like a charm. by all means try kroil first, but then...

put a dab of valve grinding compound on the tip of the screw driver. will absolutely make the tip grab the head of the fastener...

That's a *really* old one, there..  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline GuzziChris

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2016, 02:17:29 PM »
See? THIS is why I ask you guys.... best... forum...EVER.

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 04:20:25 PM »
My friend Rick, that builds Japanese drag-bike engines, swears that these screwdrivers are the best ever and will remove stuck screws that others won't. Haven't tried them myself.

http://www.toolpan.com/Vessel-Tools-A-16510--8-pc-Megadora-Cushion-Grip-Screwdrivers-Set-With-Impact-Tool_p_1683.html?gdftrk=gdfV27228_a_7c824_a_7c2023_a_7cVESA_d_16510

Charlie

Offline Tom H

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 04:44:25 PM »
JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) bits work great on asian phillips style screws. I repair my own fishing reels and never could find a standard phillips that fit right. Heard about JIS and bought the miniature set, best $15 I've spent. They also can be used on standard phillips screws.

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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2016, 12:36:37 AM »
A good way to get a Phillips head bit to grip a screw is to use a little course valve grinding paste on the tip. I must have pulled a million 10/32 Phillips head screw out of heavy jet panels over 40 years and this worked about 50% of the time.
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Offline organfixsing

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2016, 06:06:12 AM »
There are three standards (maybe four) standards for Phillips type screws.
1: Genuine Phillips. Has no markings at all.

2: A single recessed dot on the screwhead. This is the mark of the JIS or Japanese Industry Standard.

3: Two or four recessed lines ,at 90 deegrees intervals, emanating from the "Phillips" recess. These are Supadrive (two lines) and Posidrive (four lines).

The JIS screws are mainly used in Japan. (No Kidding)

The Posidrive screwhead screws are very common on European equipment. I cannot discerne any difference between Supadrive and Posidrive apart from the screwhead marking.

Cheers   :grin:

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2016, 06:13:25 AM »
Reed and Prince is another . Chris I'm impressed with the volume of advice you got!
John
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Offline boatdetective

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Re: Butchered Screw - Advice Needed
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2016, 06:28:46 AM »
There are also impact drivers
http://www.harborfreight.com/impact-screwdriver-set-with-case-37530.html

Way back when I were a sailboat rigger, I had to (try) to remove stainless screws that were seized in corroded aluminum. Not easy. The impact driver slams in a shock load while camming the head to the left. It can be the best way to get the fastener broken free. As you can imagine, there are some catches. The impact bits on cheapo import units like this tend to be very brittle and shatter. I don't know where to get decent ones.  I would also second the idea of heating the area up several times. The expansion and contraction can loosen things just barely. I'd recommend using a microtorch so you can concentrate the heat.

The comments about making sure the driver fits the head are critical. My experience is that if I'm lazy and don't pay attention to this- especially with phillips fasteners, it's easy for the driver to cam out and round the shoulders of the head. The best way to apply controlled torque would be to carefully fit the driver (using grinding paste), then fit a wrench to the driver shaft (you'll need square shank drivers). The wrench obviously multiplies your torque immensely.
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