OK tire guys.... (oh, no)

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sorry but every time I read "404 in the thread I think...

404, traction not found.

;)

  Good'un, Joe..

[Muzz]

Chuck, my gut feeling is that the "feel' of the bike will be more affected by the front tire than the rear. Guzzi related = cheap. If it feels lousy would do the front before the rear. If it still feels lousy, then do the rear as well.

As a ps, I see BT45's mentioned. I rode a Breva fitted with BT45's as a loaner bike while mine was it for it's 1000km warranty check. It really felt sh*t. I really did not know where the front end was. The Sport Demons are in a different league.

[Triple Jim]

As a ps, I see BT45's mentioned. I rode a Breva fitted with BT45's as a loaner bike while mine was it for it's 1000km warranty check. It really felt sh*t. I really did not know where the front end was. The Sport Demons are in a different league.

As someone recently posted somewhere (I thought here, but can't find the post) the motorcycle the tires are installed on can make a huge difference in the performance of a particular tire brand/model.  I know guys who do club races on BT45s and swear by them.  But based on your post, it sounds like they're not well suited to use on that Breva.  Or was it possible the steering bearings were not in good shape or not adjusted properly on the loaner bike?  That can make a front end feel worse than vague in a hurry.

[Muzz]

It was back in 2004 and the Breva was still very new Jim. Was it low pressure in the front tire? Don't know, but it was also their test bike so you would have thought that they would have had it set up reasonably well. <shrug>

Just know that their one and my one were like cheese and chalk. Mine is of course in the fast red colour and the loaner was silver.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It was back in 2004 and the Breva was still very new Jim. Was it low pressure in the front tire? Don't know, but it was also their test bike so you would have thought that they would have had it set up reasonably well. <shrug>

Just know that their one and my one were like cheese and chalk. Mine is of course in the fast red colour and the loaner was silver.

Well, it's pretty obvious that red makes the difference. <shrug> That said, red combined with Sport Demons is an unbeatable combination..

[Triple Jim]

Mine is of course in the fast red colour and the loaner was silver.

There you go... you found the reason.   

[Triple Jim]

Bridgestone BT45 update:  I rode a few miles on the Ninja 250 and got most of the mold release off the new tires.  A couple very hard front brake stops caused "stoppies", so there's a substantial improvement to the front tire traction over the old Kenda.  The steering is light, positive, and completely neutral.  Of course how they feel on this bike doesn't necessarily tell how they would feel on a different one, but I'll definitely feel better about letting my daughter ride this 250 now.

[SED]

I'm running Avon RoadRiders stock size 90 front, 100 rear on the Monza now and happy with it.  The rear wheel is much easier to install than the 110 was.  A friend swears that Roadriders stick as well in the wet as in the dry - Brits have plenty of experience with riding in the rain.  I have them on all 4 of my bikes and they seem to handle fine at my extremes.   

On thing that makes sense to me is that if you put a wide tire casing on the same size rim the tire will be squeezed at the bead changing the cross section of the tire - pushing the sidewalls in and pushing the tread center out and changing the curvature of contact patch when cornering.  I didn't notice the change from 100 to 90 x-section tires in the front, but I wonder if it would change the amount of feel near the limits - perhaps feeling more skittish at high lean angles?

[Triple Jim]

On thing that makes sense to me is that if you put a wide tire casing on the same size rim the tire will be squeezed at the bead changing the cross section of the tire - pushing the sidewalls in and pushing the tread center out and changing the curvature of contact patch when cornering.  I didn't notice the change from 100 to 90 x-section tires in the front, but I wonder if it would change the amount of feel near the limits - perhaps feeling more skittish at high lean angles?

Because of the squeezing effect you described, I found that putting a 130/80 tire on the rear of my Mille (120/90 stock) resulted in almost identical clearance to the swing arm, slightly smaller circumference (speedo read a little high) and nothing else noticeable.  I have Avon Roadriders on my Yamaha DT100 sorta-road-racer and love them.  The front is a 90/90-18, which is way squeezed on its 1.40" rim.  The only oddity is that I don't get road contact on the tread edges.  It still handles great and sticks like glue.  My favorite photo evidence:

[Chuck in Indiana]

Aaaarg! Now you tell me.  I was debating the two tires, Roadriders, and Conti Classic Attacks. The Attacks are *really* pricey and hard to come by. The Kid called last night and said, "I still think you should just wear out those 404's, but I can get you a killer deal on the Attacks."
"Just do it. Life is short.." 
Anybody want some 404s.. cheep? (Guzzi content)

[Triple Jim]

It's good we'll get a review of the Conti Classic Attacks in the deal.  I'll look forward to that.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It's good we'll get a review of the Conti Classic Attacks in the deal.  I'll look forward to that.

It'll be a while. I'm guessing it will be into May before I'm cleared to ride. I *will* say the trail Attacks I had on Darth Quota were killer.

[drlapo]

I need tires for a 1965 BSA.
18" both ends.
I'll probably use Avon Roadriders. They are tubeless tyres.
An internet source advises not to use"tubeless" tyres on "tube" wheels as the rim shape differs from that on a tubeless wheel.
I have the Avon tires on two other "tubes" bikes without problems.
Is this new concern valid?

[Triple Jim]

Not according to the tire manufacturers I've checked with.  It's hard to find motorcycle tires made specifically for use with tubes.  I also have Roadriders on two of my tube-equipped motorcycles, and have for years.

From the Dunlop site: 

"TUBE-TYPE RIMS
Only mount tyres as tubeless when recommended by the wheel manufacturer. Some spokeless rims require tubes. With a tube inserted, a tubeless tyre may be fitted to a tube-type wheel."

[Stormtruck2]

It's my underdtanding that the bead walls are profiled differently and the rim walls between tubed and tubeless.   Hence one should not be used on the other type rim.

[Triple Jim]

Michelin specifies which of their tubeless tires are OK with tubes and which are not:

Tubeless Tires and Tubes: Warnings

1. MICHELIN PROHIBITS THE USE OF INNER TUBES IN:

� MICHELIN� Power SuperSport� radial performance tires

� MICHELIN� Pilot� Power, Pilot� Power 2CT and Pilot� Power 3 performance street radial tires

� MICHELIN� Pilot� Road 3 and Pilot� Road 2 sport touring street radial tires

� MICHELIN� Scorcher� �11� and Commander� II radial cruiser tires

WHEN MOUNTED ON TUBE‑TYPE RIMS, INNER TUBES MAY BE USED IN:

� MICHELIN� Pilot� Activ street/sport tires

� MICHELIN� Commander� II, Scorcher� �31� and Scorcher� �32� cruiser/custom tires

� MICHELIN� Anakee� III dual-purpose tires

Obviously the thing to do is check with the manufacturer of the tubeless tire you're thinking of using on a tube type rim.


Avon says tubes are OK with their tubeless tires:

Using Tubes with Avon Tubeless Tires

[Chuck in Indiana]

t but they are as good as the sport demon (or better?) in dry traction.

That's what sold me. This Monza is after all, a toy.  The only problem I see is the rear is one size too wide, but it has that size on it now, and there is plenty of swing arm clearance. Whether that will change the profile enough to adversely affect handling (and if I am good enough to tell) remains to be seen.

[Groover]

I believe 110mm is the maximum allowed on a 2.15" rim (the rear on the Monza from what I understand) that will still retain the correct profile once mounted. If it were a 120, then you'd get the distortion possibly affecting handling.

From what I remember, I think Avons run a little wider than other manufactures; An Avon 100 may be as wide as a Sport Demon 110, but tire height will be proportional to the 90 profile, so the 110/90 Pirelli will still be taller than the 100/90 Avon.

I do have to say, my 120 does make taking the rear tire off a bit of a chore. It's just a tiny bit, but enough to make you mad. The bike needs lifted higher and then it clears.

Some past research here:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73995.msg1156826#msg1156826

I did end up finding Pirelli information at Dennis Kirk's website

https://www.denniskirk.com/search/pirelli+sport+demon.q

In reality, it's a crapshoot 

[kurtis]

I apologize if someone has covered this before now, but to me it's physics.
If you decide to choose a wider tire than what the rim is spec'd at, choose
a lower profile tire than the original tire had so when it is pinched more between
the beads than the original it will then crown more toward the original profile
narrower tire that the rim was originally specified for after it is fitted.  In my
frame of thinking, the bike would steer similar, but it would have more surface
area for grip. The pitfall would be more weight and more up sprung weight. I do
know that the original sizes did dig just fine the way they were though as when
I bought my Monza it still had the original Pirelli Phantoms on it.  How can a tire
9 years old still perform almost like new?  Who knows.  Like what happened to
the Metzler tires?  You can talk brands, but to me it's the shape it's at after it's
been mounted.  I'd say get the manufacturers out of your head and think more
about your profile choices.  If you can do both, that'd be great.  And yes, the
more gummy bears, the betta!!  Just add $$$