Tell me about riding with a child passenger.

[Huzo]

Gee wiz Kev ! The young girl passed out due to the heat and was lifted off the bike, what comes next if you don't intervene...

[Kev m]

Gee wiz Kev ! The young girl passed out due to the heat and was lifted off the bike, what comes next if you don't intervene...

You're making assumptions with very few details.

You have no idea if heat was the only factor in her falling asleep, whether or not dehydration was a part of the story, whether or not fatigue, diet, or some other related health condition was part of the story.

Hell you don't even know if she is normally such a heavy sleeper that it wouldn't be unusual for her to sleep through being lifted off the bike.

I've got kids that can fall asleep at the drop of a hat with AC/DC blasting. The motion of a vehicle just increases the effect.

 

[stevet]

Hey, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed insights, observations, and memories to my inquiry.  Your thoughts are appreciated.

Safe and happy travels to all this holiday season!

Steve.

[rodekyll]

I was riding my kids from about 4 or 5 on.  At first they sat on a little pad I built into the front of the seat over the back of the tank, using the boot guards behind the carbs as footrests.  I took one or the other to school, friend's, whatever regularly.  Later they rode behind.  When my son (Jackal and R80/7) was 8 we went to the world fair in Vancouver, BC.  I took the danger of falling off asleep or otherwise seriously, and got around it by packng the sleeping bags on top of the side bags and making him a big easy chair with side bumpers.  The bike already had one of those tall sissy bars we all ran in the 70s.  No problems during any of my travels with children, and they both had thousands of miles under them that they wouldn't trade for anything.  Bcck then it was coool to get chauffered to somewhere and show up on a big bike.

I also had a servicar that I'd pile the kids and dog into and go to town for groceries and mail.  The dog wore a leather helmet and goggles and got all excited when I got thm from the helmet rack.  He rteally liked to go for a ride!  The servicar was kinda scary over about 40mph.  We didn't go out on it much.

[Huzo]

What does a servicar look like Rodekyll ?

[charlie b]

Just a few other observations.

1.  Falling asleep.  Yes, I have seen people fall asleep in a chair and then fall over.  Enough times that it would concern me on a bike unless they were 'locked in' by luggage or such.  My sister-in-law used to fall asleep on the back of their Gold WIng all the time.  WIth the armrests and trunk there was no danger of her falling off.

2.  I have only ridden on the back of a bike a few times, first time I was 8.  I hated it.  ANd I still hate it.  I also will not ride with someone behind me as I don't like that either.  For me it is two things, I don't want the responsibility if the bike crashes and I don't like how the bike feels two up.

3.  My wife rode behind her dad a lot when she was younger.  Until the day they hit a patch of sand on the road and they went down.  She hasn't been on a bike since and won't ever get on one.

4.  I did give my kids rides when they were little, sitting on the tank in front of me (5yr old).  They never wanted another ride.  And, no they weren't scared.  To them it was boring.  Both are uncomfortable being passengers in a car, they'd rather be the driver (something they got from dad  :)  ).  Both like sporty cars.  Son thought about a bike until a friend of his lost a leg in a bike accident.

So from my point of view I would say, get a sidecar or get them their own bike.  :)

[Kev m]

Just a few other observations.

1.  Falling asleep.  Yes, I have seen people fall asleep in a chair and then fall over.  Enough times that it would concern me on a bike unless they were 'locked in' by luggage or such.  My sister-in-law used to fall asleep on the back of their Gold WIng all the time.  WIth the armrests and trunk there was no danger of her falling off.

I literally have never seen someone fall off a chair sleeping.... Roll out of bed yes, but fall off a chair, I just can't picture it. Very different experiences I guess.

But something in your post reminded me of something I didn't vocalize earlier in this thread. I mentioned a back rest, but didn't specifically mention luggage. I'm not sure I've ever taken a passenger on a bike that didn't also have saddlebags, and maybe that's part of the equation. There's very little room between the saddlebags and my legs for the passenger's legs (and more importantly feet) to fit through. Generally speaking a passenger would have a hard time extracting their leg and getting off the bike if i was sitting on it. Maybe that's part of my comfort with the concept.

<shrugs>

[rodekyll]

A servicar is an early harley trike.  Mine had a 45" engine, tank shifter with 3-forward/1 reverse, foot clutch and terrible steering.  There was a big bin in the back that ususally carried feed and straw around the farm.  They were used for light delivery, and police departments used them to run the parking meters and parade control.  They were produced from sometime in the 30s till the early 70s, moving up to the 74-inch motor before production ended. 

I traded an Audi fox that my brother gave me, but I had to tow it home from beside the highway it died on.  I fixed it for no money and still got the short end of the deall when I traded for the servicar.  The servicar had big chevy wheels on the back and a ridiculous springer up front -- all added for looks by someone who didn't understand steering geometry.    Shifting was a religoius experience because the head shake was so bad and I had to take my hand off the bar to work the shifter.  I sold it to a guy who'd seen it from the highway and just had to have it.  At a third or fourth visit he found my weak point at $7k.  I bought my first IBM computer/printer with the proceeds -- and no money left over.

[Huzo]

Oh yes, I think I saw Arnie or someone like that, steal one off a Police officer in a movie once.

[Green1000S]

I've taken my mom for a ride when she was 80 and my daughter at age of 11.



l 
Mom thought it was a hoot and wanted a cognac after, my youngest daughter Lisa was on the Quota ever since.
We have toured over 4000 miles every year, she sits in back of my Quota and quite often takes naps. With box as a backrest and large Wolfman bags on both sides of the bag, there is no way she will fall off. Not even at Skyline Drive curves, as seen here....



Which brings me into another topic....



And today, at age 18, she rides too... (with proper pants;-)

 

[charlie b]

I literally have never seen someone fall off a chair sleeping.... Roll out of bed yes, but fall off a chair, I just can't picture it. Very different experiences I guess.
<shrugs>

I got to watch fellow classmates asleep in their chairs all the time (and sometimes it was me asleep  :) ).  Out of the hundreds only a few fell out of the chair.  Usually cause their heads went back instead of forward, then they fell sideways.

[Kev m]

I got to watch fellow classmates asleep in their chairs all the time (and sometimes it was me asleep  :) ).  Out of the hundreds only a few fell out of the chair.  Usually cause their heads went back instead of forward, then they fell sideways.

Wonder how different their bodies would react if their legs had been straddling something.

I'm pretty sure Jenn has seen classmates fall asleep standing up (and not fall).

[Bulldog9]

Slow, slow slow, short distance, low traffic roads till 10-12. Helmet and gloves.

[rodekyll]

My mom wasn't 80 when I offered her that first ride, but she was completely blind.  We also had her horse riding, ice skating, and bicycling on the tandem bike.  She was a lot of fun for a mom.

[charlie b]

Wonder how different their bodies would react if their legs had been straddling something.

I'm pretty sure Jenn has seen classmates fall asleep standing up (and not fall).

Standing and sleeping is another one.  If braced you can stay asleep for quite a while.  I used to fall asleep in a tank turret.  Was woken up one time when my face hit the infrared sight (yes, it hurt  :)  ).

A friend a year ahead of me saved his classmate, literally.  The guy was standing in front of an open window in a 6th floor classroom.  Fell asleep and started to fall out.  The friend of mine grabbed his belt as he toppled.  Another helped pull him back into the room.

[Cam Lay]

I had my kind on the back last year when I killed a bighorn sheep with my head. He walked away. I got airlifted to the trauma ICU. So they tell me - I don't remember anything from about 10 minutes before to about 30 days after. (Despite having made a few posts here afterwards. All I can do is look at them and think "yeah, kinda sounds like me...") Full gear on both of us, for the record, and not going very fast.

I sold the LeMans a few weeks ago, to a good home. Son Jack has no interest in motorcycling right now. I don't know if I'll ever go back. I still have some healing to complete, but it is going well so far. Better physically than neurologically, but they tell me that's normal. ones heal faster than brains.

Cathy still has her FJR, and "snuck" off to Glacier NP a few weeks ago for a late-season ride while I was out of town. That's in quotes because she did tell me, though it was after she got back. "I didn't want you to worry."

So yeah. For some of us, it gets in your blood. I have a twinge of missing it every now and then, but not enough to go back right now. Maybe not ever. Many years ago our friend Marina, whom some of us will recall, said that it's your life, and perfectly all right to stop doing something if you want to.

I keep thinking, though, what if I had walked away and Jack was not quite what he used to be? What if Cathy...?

All of our mileage varies. I would not presume to pass judgment on someone else's informed tolerance for risk.

All that said, answers to bug questions are still free, and I'm honored to have been a part of this group for some dozen (has it really been that long?) or more years.

Regards,
C

[rodekyll]

Not to fuel the fire, ( but -- ok-- to fuel the fire), the analogy to falling out of a chair while napping is wrong.  IMO it's more like falling asleep while riding a mechanical bull.  The chair doesn't bounce, sway, tilt, and snap forward and back while abruptly changing speed.  Unless you put your nickle in, it shouldn't even vibrate.

[Kev m]

Not to fuel the fire, ( but -- ok-- to fuel the fire), the analogy to falling out of a chair while napping is wrong.  IMO it's more like falling asleep while riding a mechanical bull.  The chair doesn't bounce, sway, tilt, and snap forward and back while abruptly changing speed.  Unless you put your nickle in, it shouldn't even vibrate.

A mechanical BULL?

NOT EVEN CLOSE (and I've had my ass thrown off one).

A chair may not move or sway, but a motorcycle shouldn't be bucking like a bull.

Not to mention a bull doesn't have a backrest, luggage, a rider that is effectively wedging the passenger to the backrest.

[oldbike54]

 Dunno Kev , our bulls here come equipped with armrests , and rumor has it cup holders are in the development stage .

 Hey , you can't park that animal here 

 Dusty

[pazzmore]

Some of my fondest memories are riding on the back of my dad's sportster while holding on to him tight ripping around West Texas farm roads. I was probably about 8 years old.

But we also rode horses and mini bikes from a very young age.

[johnr]

Anything thrilling in this life, there's danger involved. It is your responsibility as a man to teach your progeny not to grow up scaredy pants. Their Mom's sure not going to do it.

Some truth to that. In my country these days, and by the sounds of it probably yours, safety, especially child safety, seems to  trump all other considerations. It's got completely out of proportion and has reached a point where the consequences are starting to show. 

Many kids are growing up without much of a sense of adventure nor a well developed skill in risk assessment.  This has led to young adults sometimes taking outrageous risks and cases where people have died because the police on the scene have decided it's too dangerous to rescue them, even when rescuers were ready and willing and able. It's sad.

Though I may be flamed for it, I'm convinced that in general, men have a better appreciation of a child's need to take some, preferably limited and age related, risks than most women do. Smash the X boxes and send them out side to play I say.

Don't we all remember with pleasure and appreciation the freedom we had to play pretty much where and how we liked as youngsters? (And no. Things were not different then. It's us that have changed) Just ask Tom Sawyer.

When it comes to passengers I always take things down a notch or three anyway. Depending on the passenger sometimes a lot more than that. I believe it is the riders duty to look after the passenger. I also always instruct a first time passenger on my bike on how I want them to behave as a passenger. There are rules.

I think though that if a child was young enough to require being strapped to me, I would not be taking them.  (Except in a sidecar. Even my 6 1/2 stone Golden Lab managed that.)

In the end there are risks, and where there are risks there are casualties.  It's a fact of life and we do our kids no favours by cocooning them in a great bag of cotton wool and refusing to let them come out until they are 30.

[rodekyll]

A mechanical BULL?

NOT EVEN CLOSE (and I've had my ass thrown off one).

A chair may not move or sway, but a motorcycle shouldn't be bucking like a bull.

Not to mention a bull doesn't have a backrest, luggage, a rider that is effectively wedging the passenger to the backrest.

In your world that might be true, but mine is filled with potholes and buzzards and things that go *bump* in the night.  Things that shouldn't happen do -- like having to suddenly brake, accelerate, or maneuver.  Does that ever happen to you?

[Kev m]

In your world that might be true, but mine is filled with potholes and buzzards and things that go *bump* in the night.  Things that shouldn't happen do -- like having to suddenly brake, accelerate, or maneuver.  Does that ever happen to you?

I don't know what kind of tame mechanical bull you've ridden but the differences in level/severity of those motions are so extreme as to nullify the simile.

And if the comparison was valid you'd crash every ride.

[Nic in Western NYS]

This doesn't seem to me like a good debate topic.  It's more like an important expression of personal and family values.

[Kev m]

This doesn't seem to me like a good debate topic.  It's more like an important expression of personal and family values.

Understood, but I hope people see that I've been at least attempting to examine the level of the risk as objectively as possible as opposed to criticize one's own subjective comfort with it.

But maybe the two are intermixed no matter what one tries.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Understood, but I hope people see that I've been at least attempting to examine the level of the risk as objectively as possible as opposed to criticize one's own subjective comfort with it.

But maybe the two are intermixed no matter what one tries.

[rodekyll]

I don't know what kind of tame mechanical bull you've ridden but the differences in level/severity of those motions are so extreme as to nullify the simile.

And if the comparison was valid you'd crash every ride.

*shrug*

My point is simply that one prepares for the exceptions, not for the norm.  Arguing the degree of motion or the likelihood of crashing is silly.  For example, I'm pushing 3/4-million miles on bikes now, and I've only run over a load of bouncing firewood once, only hit one coyote, only had one catastrophic blowout, only been run off the road on the ocean side of a cliff once, etc.  I've never thought those things would happen, but I've survived those events by being prepared.  With the responsibility for a passenger, especially a child, planning for the mechanical bull rather than the barcalounger makes the better sense.  To me. 

[Kev m]

*shrug*

My point is simply that one prepares for the exceptions, not for the norm.  Arguing the degree of motion or the likelihood of crashing is silly.  For example, I'm pushing 3/4-million miles on bikes now, and I've only run over a load of bouncing firewood once, only hit one coyote, only had one catastrophic blowout, only been run off the road on the ocean side of a cliff once, etc.  I've never thought those things would happen, but I've survived those events by being prepared.  With the responsibility for a passenger, especially a child, planning for the mechanical bull rather than the barcalounger makes the better sense.  To me.

It seems to me that you're changing the argument, which is fine, but doesn't equate.

You're changing from the possibility that a sleeping passenger might fall.

To

The remote, but still possible, chance of a highly irregular, but potentially significant, accident.

My answer is that when I take a child as passenger I generally change a bunch of factors to help reduce even further the chance of the latter.

AND

The answer previously given that life involves a certain amount of risk. You have to find your level.

But I was about 17 when I first read a poem that basically explained without risk there if often little reward. Venture nothing and gain nothing.

I remember back in the early 00's when I was selling a Jeep this sheepish couple came to look at it. When I mentioned the ski racks they replied that they'd never do anything so risky as that. I almost fainted from biting my tongue.

[rodekyll]

Well, Kev, you had to adjust my words (I said "event", you went to " accident"), so I'll toss it backacha.  But if you read my other posts in this topic you'll see that your picking nits is a pointless defense -- we're on the same side.  My point with the mechanical bull analogy is that especially with a child on board, a rider needs to acknowledge the possibility of unexpected things happening.

[Kev m]

Well, Kev, you had to adjust my words (I said "event", you went to " accident"), so I'll toss it backacha.  But if you read my other posts in this topic you'll see that your picking nits is a pointless defense -- we're on the same side.  My point with the mechanical bull analogy is that especially with a child on board, a rider needs to acknowledge the possibility of unexpected things happening.

Well I apologize for picking nits.

But my defense would be that I think your analogy didn't really express your point and I'd further defend that with the fact that I never argued against being more prudent with a child on board.

I'll add the I got the impression we were more in agreement than not and was puzzled trying to figure out your seemingly (in my misunderstanding) contradictory post, but that's cool, it is just another example of miscommunication and I'll take responsibility.