V7 Map Comparison - GT vs Beetle Map (GuzziDiag)

[Kev m]

Beetle... Thanks for the response. I have wondered for years if there are really just that much of a difference between production units or if it's the rider's perception (be it over-sensitivity or just in their heads).

I mean I had an early Oilhead that was supposed to "surge" and EFI Harleys that some owners claimed with surge, and now this V7.

I'm willing to say maybe it's me, but sure would like to find another explanation.

Meinholf has certainly offered one that's as good as any.


Smith, thanks also... Of course now you're adding to the argument that either there are production variances or I'm just too thick/dumb to feel the surging.

<shrugs>

[oldbike54]

 I'm sensing a pattern ...
 Dusty

[pete roper]

Another thing is until you find out how good something can be? Well ignorance is bliss!

When I first got my 8V I rode it with the execrable GRS8V-01 map in it, it shuddered and hunted and was really a bit of a pig. I tried to get a piggyback system off some mob in New York who happily took my money and never sent me anything and then said they'd refunded me. They hadn't. Screw them. Then I drank the PCV/AT kool aid. that didn't work at all! The diagnostics wouldn't even talk to the bike! I was told it was because I was doing something wrong, (I wasn't!) but decided to take said POS back to the US and ask Todd to fit it to the 'Griso Pinko' I had out there. Thankfully, by the time I went the factory and come up with the 'Not for road use' 68S map which was so much better that I decided to eschew what I'd already become suspicious of as, at least in the hands of the person who'd sold it to me, a poor choice as I'd started seeing other bikes with this system all of which massively over-fuelled. Ugh!

I was really quite happy with the 68S until Mark came over and saw exactly how grotesquely over fuelled his bike was and he decided to do something about it. With Reader and Writer available he was able to start building maps, I had a go but I was crap at it! His maps in comparison were like a bolt from the blue. There have been many, MANY iterations now for the Griso and the first couple were huge leaps. Since then it has simply been fine tuning for different models of machine and aftermarket pipes but the endgame is that the 8V, especially in the Griso as that is what we have most experience with, is now a fantastic engine to use, fuel consumption is, in everyday riding, significantly better and the way the bike performs is completely linear and very strong from sub 2,000 all the way to redline. My plugs are great, there is no soot in my exhaust and I don't have to buy 'Special Boxes' or hack into my loom to achieve this near perfection. It can all be done with a laptop and a five minute upload!

Sure, if the bike isn't tuned properly it won't run optimally! Sorry, that is the same as any other vehicle whether fuel injected or still using those 'Other Things!', (In this place we do not use the 'C' word!). Its not the fault of the map or the engine management system.

As it is Mark is now working on the MUIG's *issues*, one of the commonest of which is the cold start stall and another is the 'Surging' or whatever at low throttle openings/engine speed. No, it doesn't seem to affect every bike. But for those that it does affect it IS a problem. So let him try and deal with it.

Pete

[Meinolf]

Hi Kev,

night has ended, so let's continue.

Does this chart show the effect with or without the use of a Cat-Con? And if without, how does that change the picture?

It looks to me like you would actually reduce CO2 and NOx, increase HC slightly and CO significantly, while also reducing MPG.

the chart is not specific to a combustion engine, the same pattern would be measured in an oven or a heater. Having the exhaust gas run through a catalytic converter in the exhaust reduces the amount of some gases, not all. I don't want to extend the thread into a detailed discussion about catalytic conversion, consult this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter for a starter.

Now if we accept that chart what conclusion would you draw from remapping so it runs closer to 13.0:1 much of the time (when it would have otherwise been in closed-loop and averaging closer to Stoich/14.7:1 or so)?

But I see where you go and conclude that less power means the motor is going to have turn more rpm for the same amount of work, and since this is a snapshot of combustion not accounting for the factor of time, that you are suggesting at 13.0:1 a motor may actually pollute less because of the time factor yes?

Is that a universal equivalency, or does it change with any given motor, with different ambient conditions, with different rpm/load?

I mean if it's that simple, why wouldn't the regulating bodies of the EU and US (EPA) allow a richer target mixture at the current test points?

my comments were in reply to questions of which AFR is best, both from a riding experience and pollution point of view, for a Guzzi engine. They are not designed for lean operation. Taking all factors into consideration you will get a better performing engine, a more enjoyable riding experience, less irritiations like cold start stumble and better economy if AFR is optimized, together with ignition, partly, but not always, at richer than factory values.

And just to complete the picture, AFR is but one of the influencers of performance, ridability and economy. Ignition timing goes hand in hand with AFR, but the effect is MUCH more difficult to measure (with the means at our disposal).

I studied mechanical engineering and wrote my thesis in 1985/86 at the research center of the German TÜV, the subject being the development of the ECE R40/47 standard, which was the mother of motorcycle specific pollution legislation. We had 20 motorcycle to measure and compare, a huge lab with gas and particle measuring equipment which took more than 2h every morning to warm up and calibrate, plus constant re-calibration. All of the measurements were done with the motorcycles on a dyno and the drivers (me and another student) following a detailed time/speed profile. Which was supposed to cover the majority of driving patterns. And that's how motorcycles and cars are still tested today.

(In the sense of full disclosure, I started working in the IT industry immediately after receiving my degree. And retired some months ago, that's why I have time to re-involve myself with this stuff. So, I'm really no more than a layman myself)

Legislation doesn't dictate AFR, it dictates pollution limits. And the methods to achieve this are selected by OEMs as they see fit and are capable of. BMW has hundreds of engineers working on motorcycle electronics and adapting the results of thousands of engineers working for the ECU manufacturers. Most likely Guzzi, in the 90's, had the single engineer they had call an acquaintance a Marelli and ask him, do you have a cheap ECU suitable for a V-twin. Which they had, for Ducati. And threw in a day or two of adapting it to the pecularities of a Guzzi engine. The result of which we are driving. And I don't see many improvements since then.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Mr Pootle]

From what I can see, Beetle, Mark et al are working to make good bikes better. That'll do me. I've no problem with mine, but anything can be improved upon with a little diligent fettling (yes, dear, even you).

[Andy1]

SmithSwede
The problem you describe with your V7 (mid range hesitancy) is the same problem my bike had.  So if your bike is the same as mine (2014 built V7 with 1TB) why not try the same solution as I did of disconnecting the lambdas at their electrical plugs, go for a ride, and report back?

If you follow the wires up from the sensors you will find each has a quick disconnect plug, one under each side panel, and they pull apart (there may be a locking piece you have to push, I cant remember).

Andy1

[Xlratr]

SmithSwede
The problem you describe with your V7 (mid range hesitancy) is the same problem my bike had.  So if your bike is the same as mine (2014 built V7 with 1TB) why not try the same solution as I did of disconnecting the lambdas at their electrical plugs, go for a ride, and report back?

If you follow the wires up from the sensors you will find each has a quick disconnect plug, one under each side panel, and they pull apart (there may be a locking piece you have to push, I cant remember).

Andy1

If you are happy with that solution and the ECU doesn't throw up errors, then you should also remove the sensor(s) and plug the holes as they will no longer be heated. Over time they will be ruined.
If the sensor(s) are "switched off" but remain physically connected, they will continue to be heated.

Edit: you should probably also disconnect the battery for a few minutes to clear the auto learn memory.

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[Andy1]

Hi Xiratra (John),
You are correct about removing the lambdas long term -  I fitted stainless bungs - see Post number 3 many pages above!

But simply disconnecting them and going for a ride gives a chace for someone to evaluate the modification very easily.  No cost, and they can reverse it in a few minutes.

I had not considered the self-learning that the ECU might do - does our ECU actually have this facility?

And I have no experience of the MkII V7 which may be different to my V7 MkI

Andy1

[organfixsing]

Some people seem to say that their small block bike runs perfectly from new. Others have all sorts of problems and stumbles. It seems to me that one thing has not been addressed and that is fuel pump pressure. The pressure regulator employed in the fuel tank is not a NASA specced. item. I wonder what the manufacturing pressure spread is aloud and might this affect the overall tuning of the motor. Another possible variation is the calibration accuracy of the injectors Just saying.
On the problem of warmup, and the fact that the O2 sensors are not working at this stage, there is a mixture modifying map called the 'Engine Temperature Correction' map which I have modified with some remarkable success. Being in Oz, I have not had the opportunity to test under cold conditions yet. The temperature last week went to 44C (111F) but in previous times around 35C (95F) I had experienced embarrassing stumbles. I no longer have these.
My random thoughts
Cheers
Brian AU 

[Kev m]

OK, much thanks to both Meinholf and Beetle. You guys have convinced me there's no harm in trying one of Beetle's maps for the V7. I'll look into it come spring.

[Andy1]

Kev,
Why not just try disconnecting the lamdas first?
Then try Beetle's remap solution (which I get the impression is still being worked on?)
And report back your findings
Andy1

[ponti_33609]

Kev,
Why not just try disconnecting the lamdas first?
Then try Beetle's remap solution (which I get the impression is still being worked on?)
And report back your findings
Andy1

Yes but you can always wait for the next great thing and never do anything. The map I loaded runs so much better than stock and as I said, on my bike, better than the GT map.


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[Kev m]

Kev,
Why not just try disconnecting the lamdas first?
Then try Beetle's remap solution (which I get the impression is still being worked on?)
And report back your findings
Andy1

Because I prefer a more integrated solution. If the stock fueling can be improved upon without negative effects (efficiency/pollution etc.) then I'm willing to take a shot. I have no "need" for it however.

[Andy1]

Hi Kev,
I am really not sure what you mean by 'a more integrated solution'?

Do whatever you are happy with, or make no changes at all.  If you are happy with your bike, that is all that matters.  But please do not say one method of adjusting the mixture is better than another without trying them both.

A little story.
Years ago I bought a new XT 350 Yamaha.  I really liked the bike, used it on and off road, but always felt it could do with a bit more power - but that is not an unnatural thing.  I sold it to my wife's cousin, and they felt it was well underpowered....fro m new there had been a restrictor in the inlet tract.   Once removed the bike was transformed.
There may be a parallel here, and trying the simple solution of unplugging the lambdas may just improve your bike.  You will never know unless you try!

AndyB
(A warning though - the XT was stolen shortly afterwards.....so if you do remove the lambdas make sure you lock the bike up well!)

[RANDM]

In reference to lean burning - my son works for GM Holden
and they were deep into experimenting with lean burn.
He told me they had a set up with two injectors - one shot
the main charge which was too lean to ignite normally, the
second shot a small rich charge aimed at the Spark Plug to
start the burn and flamefront.

Not sure if it made it to production before GMH ran and hid
in a Bank Vault with their money or not.

Maurie.

[beetle]

OK, much thanks to both Meinholf and Beetle. You guys have convinced me there's no harm in trying one of Beetle's maps for the V7. I'll look into it come spring.

Why? I've always maintained that if a person is happy with their bike, don't change anything.

[beetle]

I had not considered the self-learning that the ECU might do - does our ECU actually have this facility?

Yes. When the bike leaves the factory, there are no trims (nothing autolearned) and the engine will run pretty much like yours does now. Over a period of time/miles, the ECU trims the closed loop are fuel delivery to meet emissions.

And I have no experience of the MkII V7 which may be different to my V7 MkI

Functionally the same.

[Kev m]

Why? I've always maintained that if a person is happy with their bike, don't change anything.

I wouldn't mind a cold start fix.

And if we can increase efficiency/decrease emissions too then it would be win win, no?

[BoatDoc]

Pete Roper brought up some good points about manufacturing and operating variances in the fuel pump. Another, much bigger issue when commenting on how a particular design runs where we all live and ride is the huge variability in fuel around the world.

I had the good fortune to ride a 12GS around the world. I bought it new in the US and it ran OK, but not super smooth. In Europe it ran great! Not so good in Africa. Back in Europe it ran great again. Then it started running poorly in Russia and burned up a set of plugs in Mongolia. Back in the US it again ran OK.

My V7II initially stumbled and surged when cold. After the 600 mile service it ran smoother. Now at 1800 miles, while it is not perfect, it runs with much less stumbling than the 12GS ever did in the US. Nonetheless, I might try a new map in search of the perfect running engine!

[malik]

About that stumbling/surging/missing at around 4,000rpm on the V7s - both the V7C (now at 163,000km) and the single throttle bodied V7S (78,000km) have exhibited this from time to time. My FIRST point of call is the air filter (replace it with a new one) and the airbox - espec in the case of the V7S (soak up the oil & clean it out). I've found that that'll often fix it. Next check is the HT leads, caps & plugs. Do that BEFORE looking elsewhere - it's easy & cheap. Logically, the next step should be the fuel supply (fuel lines & pump). I don't know about anyone else, but I need reminding to have everything else working fine before playing with the ECU.

That being said, do note that the V7S with its MUI G3 is on Mark's third version map, and doing very nicely, thank you very much. Still a bit of a cold-starter, but nowhere near as bad as it was originally, and it handles bumper to bumper traffic in the scorching heat much better than it did. (It would handle it better still if I hadn't broken the fuel line's T junction when trying to remove the tank). The V7C is still on the original map - quite satisfactory - and it may even run a little better after balancing the throttle bodies & re-setting the TPS, so long as I don't muck it up too badly.

[pauldaytona]

Cold start is easy fixed with changing the warm up map a bit. At least with the stelvio. It starts at 0 degree celcius and I can drive away without any hesitation. 

[sturgeon]

I had my 2014 V7S in for some warranty work a couple of years back and asked the dealer to check for updates and install if available. He did so (at no charge), and whatever new factory map he put in pretty much solved my cold issues. It had always started instantly, but needed a 60-second or so warmup to be able to ride away without stalling or massive throttle/clutch action.

[ponti_33609]

I had my 2014 V7S in for some warranty work a couple of years back and asked the dealer to check for updates and install if available. He did so (at no charge), and whatever new factory map he put in pretty much solved my cold issues. It had always started instantly, but needed a 60-second or so warmup to be able to ride away without stalling or massive throttle/clutch action.

I had the latest stock map on my 2014 and didn't have cold running issues but I'm in Florida. But it was 37 this morning when I left. It just wasn't as smooth as it was when I changed my stock pipes for Mistrals.


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[waxi]

About that stumbling/surging/missing at around 4,000rpm on the V7s - both the V7C (now at 163,000km) and the single throttle bodied V7S (78,000km) have exhibited this from time to time. My FIRST point of call is the air filter (replace it with a new one) and the airbox - espec in the case of the V7S (soak up the oil & clean it out). I've found that that'll often fix it. Next check is the HT leads, caps & plugs. Do that BEFORE looking elsewhere - it's easy & cheap. Logically, the next step should be the fuel supply (fuel lines & pump). I don't know about anyone else, but I need reminding to have everything else working fine before playing with the ECU.

That being said, do note that the V7S with its MUI G3 is on Mark's third version map, and doing very nicely, thank you very much. Still a bit of a cold-starter, but nowhere near as bad as it was originally, and it handles bumper to bumper traffic in the scorching heat much better than it did. (It would handle it better still if I hadn't broken the fuel line's T junction when trying to remove the tank). The V7C is still on the original map - quite satisfactory - and it may even run a little better after balancing the throttle bodies & re-setting the TPS, so long as I don't muck it up too badly.

Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? 

[ponti_33609]

Just a question... you have 163.000km on your V7?? 

+1. I was prob having issues with my caps/plugs before this. I would report the Beetle map is even smoother to me now after the change this past weekend.


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[beetle]

This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?

[ponti_33609]

This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?

I start and ride (Florida) without stumbling since installing your map. Decel pop gone as well.


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[pete roper]

This is for folks whom already have one of my maps: Let me be 100% clear on this. The cold start 'issue' is for this who start-and-ride. Those who let the engine warm up for a minute, don't have the stalling/stumble problem. Correct?

In my experience with the 'Racer' this was the case both with the factory map and the iteration of yours that is in there. Your explanation of what the shitty TPS does and how the ECU interprets it manes perfect sense as to why it happens.

Pete

[Andy1]

If you wait for the engine to warm up before riding off in UK you can sometimes run out of petrol......
Andy1

[beetle]

Right. So if it is related to the TPS like I suspect, then it's unlikely I'll be able to fix it.

Bob, how many miles on yours?