The problem with single throttle body V7's

[mjptexas]

It will be interesting to see if they fixed it with the V7III.

Isn't the V7III supposed to have piston and head configurations similar to that of the V9?  If so, then I'd think the ECU map would be quite a bit different and may be similar to the V9 map.   The V9 doesn't display the same cold blooded tendencies that the V7 does.

[beetle]

Beetle - Thanks for the explanation of what the table means.
You say there are other correction tables - what are those?  Just trying to understand the beast

Major correction tables (other than fuel-engine-temp):


Warm up. Engine temp versus time. I'm not sure whether 'time' is run-time or engine revolutions.





Pressure-Air-Temperature. Ambient air pressure versus intake air temp.





Intake pressure. Intake mass air pressure versus intake air temperature.

[Andy1]

Ok got it now.
Going to convert my V7 to c***s.
Andy1

Add in the variables of the bike (OE components plus whatever the owner has done to it) and you have a LOT of parameters to play with.

[pauldaytona]

Ok got it now.
Going to convert my V7 to c***s.
Andy1

Add in the variables of the bike (OE components plus whatever the owner has done to it) and you have a LOT of parameters to play with.

 And that's why a booster plug won't solve anything. 

[Andy1]

What is a Booster Plug?
Andy1

[pete roper]

It's one of any number of shitty 'Plug in' cures for 'What ails you' offered that interfere with the signal from various sensors to 'Trick' the ECU into 'Running Rich'. As you can see by the above thread there are a whole load of cascading results that will occur if you mess with one thing without thinking about how the ECU interpolates the input.

Everybody wants a 'Magic Bullet'. There is no such thing. The only way to work out 'How Stuff Works' without access to the WM info is experimentation, observation, confirmation and peer review. Whoops! Might sound a bit like 'Science'!

Pete

[organfixsing]

Sorry to rain on your parade beetle, but that engine temperature was the one I sent you. You did, at first believe that my solution was not viable and said so. I don't have any problem with that as I want these bikes to run right, however I would like some acknowledgment for my contribution.
Brian

[sign216]

Not trying to be a wise guy.  I just let my bike warm up for a few moments and ride.  What am I missing?

I've got to admit I start it and let it idle while I put on earplugs, helmet, gloves, etc.  Bike isn't warm yet but it runs fine.

But....I recall a famous bank robber in Israel who regularly used a Breva 750.  He would need quicker starts. 

[Kev m]

I've got to admit I start it and let it idle while I put on earplugs, helmet, gloves, etc.  Bike isn't warm yet but it runs fine.

The 1TB and 2TB are such completely different animals in the sense it's not funny.

The 2TB will at least keep running if you keep the revs up. The 1TB can be so sensitive it stalls if you even put it in gear.

[Andy1]

The two issues people seem to (sometimes) have with the 1TB bikes is poor pick up when cold and mid-range surging. 
Do the tables give any clues about the mid-range surging, say 3500 - 4000rpm, and if so, how could the tables be modified?
Andy1

[beetle]

Sorry to rain on your parade beetle, but that engine temperature was the one I sent you. You did, at first believe that my solution was not viable and said so. I don't have any problem with that as I want these bikes to run right, however I would like some acknowledgment for my contribution.
Brian

What contribution? You sent me a modified version of my map with a new warm-up table. A modification that doesn't address the real issue. Then you posted here that modifying the fuel-engine-temp correction table just needed a few values change to '1' so that it didn't 'increase fuel consumption ' (your words), which is naive. Then proceeded to say the warm-up table doesn't affect anything because the warm-up time legend consists of zeroes. So, your 'contribution' has simply been to confuse those V7 owners who believed what you posted here. You don't understand the way the map works. Furthermore, you say you let the bike idle while you put your gear on and open the gate. You haven't really 'fixed' your bike, you just let it warm up.

Contribution? Please! Put your ego away. You've contributed nothing.

[beetle]

The two issues people seem to (sometimes) have with the 1TB bikes is poor pick up when cold and mid-range surging. 
Do the tables give any clues about the mid-range surging, say 3500 - 4000rpm, and if so, how could the tables be modified?
Andy1

The surging is due to the lambda leaning out the midrange. The 'trim' table is in RAM and modified by the ECU from lambda signal.

[sign216]

The 1TB and 2TB are such completely different animals in the sense it's not funny.

The 2TB will at least keep running if you keep the revs up. The 1TB can be so sensitive it stalls if you even put it in gear.

What?!  And this is progress? 

[Kev m]

What?!  And this is progress?

It's one small tiny piece of the changes, maybe THE only negative
 
This entire thread is basically about it and it basically disappears after a few minutes when the combustion chambers warm up.

So yes, even with this small misstep there's quite a net improvement.

[organfixsing]

No beetle, that was early on in winter.
I didn't send you a modified map but sent you a spreadsheet of my version of the fuel engine tempcorrection table which happens to be the same as you quoted at the beginning of this thread.
I have it on my V7II along with your map and am very satisfied with it but I have yet to see what it does in winter.
I take note of your assertion that the fueling should be leaned at higher engine temps as I wondered why the original table was running at 0.98 at the higher engine temps, so I may try a further version.
Brian

[beetle]

I didn't send you a modified map but sent you a spreadsheet of my version of the fuel engine tempcorrection table which happens to be the same as you quoted at the beginning of this thread.

Er, no. That correction table at the beginning of the thread is from a stock V7-II map.

[organfixsing]

My apologies beetle.
I looked at the spreadsheet I sent you on 9th November and fin it is not the same at all as the one you quoted at the start of this thread.

I regularly test my table by taking off pretty much as soon as the motor is started and have only experienced one brief hiccup, however, this has not been tested in winter yet.
Today is forecast to be 42C or 107.6F and I had a bad hiccup at temperatures near this after the bike sitting in the sun for 1 hour.
This is what prompted me to investigate something other than the fuel warm-up table.

Looking at the warm-up time legend table, the left-hand column is all zeroes. All other legend tables have numbers from 1 to the number of steps in the table.
This led me to believe that the warm-up table is not used in practice, and so I searched for an alternative which seemed to be the fuel-engine temp correction table.
This appears to be true as the results are very good (although not tested in winter yet).
Brian 

[beetle]

The warm-up table may not be time based. It's possible that engine revolutions are used.

[tris]

Education please Beetle

The vertical scale looks roughly linear but the horizontal scale looks close to an exponential scale

Is that a function of what the engine needs or is it just that some of the columns from the map are hidden??

[pauldaytona]

Nothing hidden, has to do with how a TB works. In the first degrees of opening there is much more difference in actual airflow.   The difference in first 10% is much more then difference between 30 and 40% opening.

[beetle]

Nothing hidden. The TPS scale (butterfly angle) is more or less exponential.  Air intake is not linear.

A rough graph.

[waxi]

I've eliminated it from the stock V7 (Pete's Racer) and am now tweaking the map. Craig (Clancy on the forum) is testing the fix on a stock V7-II. There will be a few updates to that map before I make it available, so I'd suggest waiting until I've sorted both V7 I &vII.

Beetle, are you working on new version of 4299 or 5C29? Should we expect even further perfection of those?

[beetle]

4299

[waxi]

4299

 

[tris]

Cheers Paul/Beetle - I understand that - which is nice 

[kenvil1]

I think the old adage "Making mechanics out of riders for..." needs to be revised to better reflect modern technology.

[Meinolf]

Hi Mark,

I agree, the values, both x-axis and cells, corrrespond to the ones from the 15M, which are known to be number of revolutions.

Warm up. Engine temp versus time. I'm not sure whether 'time' is run-time or engine revolutions.

Neither air pressure nor air temperature trim values are following the gas equation. Easily corrected (if these are the only tables for temp/pressure correction in the BIN) and very helpful when data logging.

Pressure-Air-Temperature. Ambient air pressure versus intake air temp.

Cheers
Meinolf

[oldlegs]

I've been following this thread with great interest and big thanks to you people doing the hard work and shearing it with us. Right from brand new my V7 11 had the small throttle/ low rev hesitation, I put up with it until the 1st service and when it was no better I got a Finebauforge and found a worth while improvement. Over the next 10,000 miles the bike got better and better, that was until 2 weeks ago when after about 15 miles I stopped for a few mins and although the bike started up ok it would not respond to throttle, I limped along for a few hundred yards and all seemed ok until I needed to stop again and the same thing happened. I get the feeling that the Finebau and the lambd only has any effect at small throttle low revs so I removed the Finebau to see if that had gone faulty. The bike started and ran well for about 12 miles then lost throttle response I struggled to keep up with the traffic, Less than about half throttle the bike would slow down until asked for more than half throttle when the bike would snatch the transmission and accelerate hard. I pulled over and in desperation uncoupled the lambd cables, since then the bike has run the best ever it is smoother less harsh from closed throttle to open throttle. Yesterday I did about 100 miles it was a cold day and the bike ran really well. All this could just a blip to the good or bad or just coincidence I'm touching wood while writing this, I did give the bike a good talking too, told it to sort it's self out or it would be in part exchange for a Triumph street twin.

[Andy1]

Oldlegs - I have said it frequently on this forum.... removing the lambdas worked well for my bike.  It may be a crude, simplistic method, but I am happy with how my bike now runs.   Glad somone else is also using the same method.
Still interested in Beetle's more 'scientific' approach, so this is a useful thread
Andy1

[oldlegs]

Andy1 ,did you remove the lambda from the exhaust pipe? If so can you tell me what size plug thread I would need to fill the hole.
Thanks Steve.