Stelvio down......the $5k estimate.

[Rhodan]

Not Utah but...
Here's a used one for $7000 https://www.southsoundmotorcycles.com/default.asp?page=xPreOwnedInventoryDetail&id=5557741&p=1&s=Year&d=D&t=preowned&fr=xPreOwnedInventory

And one where they're asking $7800. https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/mcy/d/2013-moto-guzzi-stelvio-1200/6718466280.html

[groundhog105]

Remember the guy who was GIVING away a crashed Stelvio a couple of years ago and one bloke actually wondered about the fuel cost to go and pick it up...!
Would be a handy little piece of kit to have now wouldn't it ?

That would be me.  I still haven’t done anything with it. Too many other things going on but it’s an 09 flat tap pet motor with 50 thousand miles.  I doubt very much if it would be any help in this case.  UT rider would still have to rebuild everything plus rollerize it but if he’s interested PM me.

[Mike Tashjian]

Did I miss something here?  What exactly is wrong with this bike?  Are we guessing that 5K will make it run again no matter what is found inside?  I know a shop has to make money, but doesn't an estimate include what probably went wrong?  Like no compression, or a valve got burned.  What does lost a cylinder mean without a reasonable guess?  Off the subject a bit, a friend wanted me to repair a lawnmower engine that he felt was on it's last leg. The shop estimate was for 1500 dollars to rebuild the engine.  A quick check of the basics and we found the ignition points dirty.  The engine runs like a champ and all for under twenty dollars.  I trust no one, check everything myself and verify the problem before committing to major work.      Mike

[Rough Edge racing]

 Interesting...years ago many of us ran no air filters on our Birt bikes and Harleys.Some Ducatis and Guzzi's lacked air filter in the early 70's...Slowly but surely the engine would start to use oil , the valves guides got loose and performance dropped off...but the engine still ran on all cylinders...There was no sudden failure... Is that what really happened here, a sudden failure causing damage to the cylinder heads from injesting a large piece of debris?

[GearheadGrrrl]

I agree- you really need a teardown or at least some oil analysis and compression or leakdown testing to get an idea of what's wrong. $5000 seems high, even for a rebuild- the most expensive part of a rebuild is usually the heads, the Nickasil cycliners are so hard that replacement is seldom needed. The only real potential budget buster here is the crankshaft, and you might find a used one. I'd get it home, do some diagnostics, tear it down, and you might get it fixed for under a thousand $$$. Don't abandon it- I've sat on badly busted bikes for months and years until reasonably priced used parts appeared to rebuild them.

[Lannis]

It's interesting, though.   A Stelvio is a very nice, very functional bike that a lot of people enjoy riding, and which will go a long way with no trouble once sorted (mine's at 50K now and running like it was new).

You can buy a non-running one for (say) $2 - $3,000, put (say) $3000 into getting it running, and for $5000 have a nice bike you can trust.

All the same things are true for a Loopframe, and about the same prices, maybe a little more.

But we'd never say "Your Ambassador's not running?   Got a problem with one cylinder?   That's bad; just scrap it out and buy another one that's running and ride it instead" whereas that path seems to be an option with a Stelvio.

MAYBE what some say is true?   That the new bikes are "just ride till they break then trash them and get another", as opposed to the older ones that are never trashed unless they're broken into metallic pieces, but otherwise are always rebuildable?

And we're not even into the electronics yet ....

Lannis

[Tusayan]

Mechanicals aside, people understand that newer bikes have many items which slowly degrade over the life of the bike, and will never be economic to fix: bodywork tabs and fittings, instrumentation and displays, anything plastic exposed to UV etc.  BMWs are the same - old ones are rebuilt, new ones are disposable.  Nobody really needs to discuss it to understand it, it’s obvious.

[twowheeladdict]

I don't get attached to bikes, only the memories of the experiences they provided. 

That said, I would only rebuild the engine if you are going to make it more powerful.  Otherwise, might as well pick up a slightly used one and put it in there for way less labor.

[Lannis]

Nobody really needs to discuss it to understand it, it’s obvious.

Well, sure.   When you know it all already, discussion is never needed.   Like The Deacon on Waterworld ...

"Let's have an intelligent conversation here!   I'll talk, you listen!"

I'm sure the same thing was said by the leather-belt-and-acetylene guys when bikes with clutches and electric lights came out.   Or when H1 Kawasakis with plastic body panels and CDI ignitions came out - "No one will EVER be able to restore those ...".

Who ever thought that it would make sense, or even be POSSIBLE, in 1980 for someone to restore a 1972 CB350 Honda, or that people would actually do it instead of just pitching it in the skip?

At one point, Vincents were just old used bikes.   People "wore them out", then threw them away because (by definition) they weren't economically rebuildable.   Sounds silly today.

When the "disposable" bikes (even the ones that cost $15,000 new) of today reach a point when people want to restore and ride them, they'll be able to do it.   

Lannis

[Utrider]

I won't be able to pick the bike up until the end of the month.  The advisor that I spoke with said that the cam chain tensioner was shot, as well as the pistons, valves and cylinders.  I will get the bike up here where I can assess what's going on.  I plan on finding a used motor at this point and swapping it out.  There's a 2012 on Ebay for $2,600.00.  I would prefer a 2013 or newer to avoid the flat tappett issues.  I don't have to be in a hurry and I would guess between Griso's, Norge's and Stelvio's there will be something that comes up in a newerish model. 

If anyone hears of one please let me know, I agree with Groundhog the cost to rebuild his would be about the same or so as rebuilding mine. 

I will get a service manual, so that I can do the swap myself.  I can't imagine it will take anything too exotic specialty tools wise to do that.  I have access to some excellent mechanics, just not Guzzi mechanics or technicians. 

I too am very curious to see for myself exactly what is going on.  They have the cylinder heads removed, and I have asked them to put it out of their way until I can get there to pick it up. 

GP Motorcycles staff has been very helpful and understanding of my circumstances.  In my exploration of this I have found my situation to be very unusual, and unique.

I have been riding and around motorcycles for 45 years, including racing Motocross and desert for 20 of those.  This is the first time I have encountered anything like this myself.

[pete roper]

I won't be able to pick the bike up until the end of the month.  The advisor that I spoke with said that the cam chain tensioner was shot, as well as the pistons, valves and cylinders. 

I'd love to see inside this thing.

[Utrider]

Thank you for volunteering Pete, you can count on seeing it!

[Tkelly]

There is a new 14 stelvio at Dunn's Imports in Middleton WI that they are dying to sell.

[pete roper]

Mechanicals aside, people understand that newer bikes have many items which slowly degrade over the life of the bike, and will never be economic to fix: bodywork tabs and fittings, instrumentation and displays, anything plastic exposed to UV etc.  BMWs are the same - old ones are rebuilt, new ones are disposable.  Nobody really needs to discuss it to understand it, it’s obvious.

No it's not. It's crap.

I can tell you that my ten year old Griso looks a damn sight better at its age than my SP1000 did. The only bit that wore out 'Prematurely' on the G was the tappets. Everything else, including all those bits you reckon are so damage prone and/or unreliable are doing just dandy thank you.

Pete

[old head]

It really comes down to how well you like the bike.  Yes you can buy a used bike and have one for parts, but you may get one that needs other work down the road.  I have tended to believe its cheaper to fix 'em if you plan on keeping them long term than jumping from vehicle to vehicle.  Depreciation has already taken a large chunk out of the bike, and once fixed you should have engine worry free for many many miles, vs used which is an unknown.
Let information, experience, and judgment be your guide.

Sometimes, what is suspected to need to rebuild an engine is not.  I have fixed several frozen engines that were sold off for junk that only required a little investigation and virtually no money and the engine was running fine.  No idea if this is your case, but I would definitely find someone to recheck the shops work just to verify. 

Bought a 66 mustang that the owner swore the engine was froze up, and sure enough it wouldn't move, even with a breaker bar on the crankshaft.  I pulled the starter and found the starter gear had fractured and had jammed the flywheel.

had a 5th avenue that sat outside for about 2 years due to body damage, and it wouldn' t turn over but owner said it was running fine when parked.  Pulled plugs, had water in cylinders, drained water, sprayed WD40 in all the cylinders over a few days and it finally broke loose and ran fine for years.

Thinks aren't always what they seem, sometimes...Could be as bad as you have been told, but I would certainly find someone who can give you another assessment before throwing major money at the bike based on what one shop tells you, IMO.

Old Head

[Lannis]

It really comes down to how well you like the bike.  Yes you can buy a used bike and have one for parts, but you may get one that needs other work down the road.  I have tended to believe its cheaper to fix 'em if you plan on keeping them long term than jumping from vehicle to vehicle.  Depreciation has already taken a large chunk out of the bike, and once fixed you should have engine worry free for many many miles, vs used which is an unknown.

I believe that's very true.   Monetarily, I would have been a LOT better off in my 34-motorcycle, 47-year riding life if I had KEPT the nice, solid, good-riding motorcycles that I had, ridden them and fixed them for however many years, really gotten to know them well, then sold them off for what they would bring when my life or needs changed.

Instead, I've sort of hopped from one to another, got rid of some nice bikes that I shouldn't have, absorbed a bunch of depreciation that I didn't have to (probably $50K worth lifetime), and probably ended up averaging 15,000 miles per motorcycle (big variation though).

Lucky for me I did it with motorcycles and not wives.   That could be REALLY REALLY expensive ...

Lannis

[Tusayan]

No it's not. It's crap.

I can tell you that my ten year old Griso looks a damn sight better at its age than my SP1000 did. The only bit that wore out 'Prematurely' on the G was the tappets. Everything else, including all those bits you reckon are so damage prone and/or unreliable are doing just dandy thank you.

Pete

One liners have about zero value or interest to me.

I think the market that values 10-15 year old Guzzis and BMWs as it does, very little, does so for a reason. It’s because on the average they are about half way to a permanent irreparable grave.  Almost none will ever be rebuilt after a certain calendar life has passed.  Chalky once-black plastic parts are not going to be restored, and replacement parts will be either unavailable or hard to get at reasonable cost...  For example a left side handlebar switch unit for a current BMW GS is $400. Warped fuel tanks that no longer fit are not going to be repaired or replaced.  A few parts like that on a simple bike are manageable but when most parts on a complex bike are hard to deal with, it's not going to happen.

I'm in agreement with the market, it has no agenda and a great deal of factual evidence. The depreciation of these bikes when bought new is much like a Japanese bike, because they are now designed with the same life cycle in mind. 

Lannis, Vincents were made obsolete in the used bike market over maybe 20 years, let’s say by the early 70s, as a result of increased performance from other bikes.  However, virtually nobody ever threw a Vincent in the dumpster and they were never particularly cheap. Likewise with my bevel SS Ducati - I don’t think it was ever worth less than 80% of its new price.  I bought my SS for 85% of its new price when it was 12 years old.  At the same time, 10 year old BMW R100RSs were selling for about 65% of what they cost new. Five year old R100GSs were at that time selling for more than they cost new (they were $4K new in 1988) and have gone up ever since.

I did keep the solid, good-riding European bikes that I had and they are all worth what I paid or in some cases more.  You can do with your presumably hard earned money what you want, I did and will.  I suppose if you buy a ten year old ($14990 original MSRP) Stelvio for let's say $6K you can only loose $6K...

[Tusayan]

I plan on finding a used motor at this point and swapping it out.  There's a 2012 on Ebay for $2,600.00.  I would prefer a 2013 or newer to avoid the flat tappett issues.  I don't have to be in a hurry and I would guess between Griso's, Norge's and Stelvio's there will be something that comes up in a newerish model. 

I think you're on the right course.  A used engine will come along soon enough, the bikes can be totalled with very limited damage and the mileage on some of them is going to be reasonable. It's going to be cheaper than buying two bikes to get one, neither having high residual value.

If Utah has engine number listed on the bike’s title make sure you get paperwork with the engine and update the title to include the new engine number. Otherwise it can cause a problem when selling the bike some day.

[LowRyter]

what in the heck happened to trash the engine like that? 

[pete roper]

If it got dusted the damage doesn't take long.

What concerns me with this is the suggestion the cam chain tensioner are shot? They are a very simple device and I would think one of the very last parts that would suffer in a dusted engine.

It all sounds very, "We don't know what's wrong with it and just want it to go away!" But I believe this shop has a decent reputation?

Pete

[Utrider]

Right side cylinder, compression 0, left side 220 lbs





Right side throttle body............... .looks like a muddy river went through it.  Left side the same.





Airbox, I looked through my notes and the end of August it says "airbox clean"

[Utrider]

I had an engineer friend of mine look at it in Oceanside. He worked for Honda for 25 years and he checked over the airbox, filter and cover.  He could find no witness marks of dirt getting past any of the components.  He believes there is a hole some where in the airbox, I will take it out and investigate. 

Initially I thought the piston had been "broken" at 2, 4, 8 & 10 o'clock but these are obviously reliefs cut into the dome of the piston. 

Pete and anyone else, if there is something you want a picture of let me know, it's pretty available right now.  I have found a couple of engines, one from a 2009 in Europe and a 2012 in Ohio. Don't know about the tappets on the 2012 and the 2009 is of a different design (4V) as I recall.

I plan on taking the bike to the only "Guru" I know of around here, Doug Easton up in Evanston, Wyoming to get his 2 cents worth. 

It looks like I can remove the piston with the cylinder in place, remove the studs that go up through the cylinders, then remove the cylinders without dropping the motor.  Although, it might just be easier in the long run to drop the engine and put it on a stand to work on it.

I was pleasantly surprised to find a piston and cylinder is "only" $500, I can't imagine anyone making over bore pistons for these, although I haven't looked yet.

[pete roper]

Right, first thing is to find where the dirt is getting in and ensuring it can't happen again. Then move on to effecting the repair.

Now the fact it's pushing nothing on the left hand side is very odd and 220 on the right is too high. The fact it's pushing 220 makes me think the cam timing is out on that cylinder, (Go one tooth off one way and cylinder fill is bonkers at cranking speed but it won't bend a valve.) have the valves on the side with no compression been checked? I'm wondering if this is another case of the flinger plate not being installed properly and the timing moving. Are there any witness marks on the top of the piston on the side that isn't pumping?

With a dusted motor you wouldn't expect nothing on one cylinder. Lower, maybe a lot lower, than they 'Good' side but not nothing. You implied that the dead side stopped instantly? It didn't start to miss and hunt or anything? Just stopped instantly? If so, while dust is undoubtably getting in I'm beginning to think that that diagnosis alone as the cause of failure is probably incorrect.

If the heads are off grab them and hold them with first the inlet and then the exhaust port uppermost and pour some petrol into the port. If it gushes straight out of the valves then the timing has slipped and it's biffed a valve.

This is going to be a process of elimination now the heads are off. Methinks if you're lucky you may just get away with rings and valves, (And correct assembly!). You don't have to drop the motor to get the barrels off but you do need to remove the studs, they are glued in good so you need a really good stud extractor to get them out. We have a savage one made by the SnapOn subsidiary Blues Point. It and a long breaker bar made short work of the studs on the one I had recently that dropped its timing and bust a valve.

Pete

[wirespokes]

The diagnosis sure sounds whacky to me. Perhaps a good look will discover what REALLY happened. Something happened when it first started using oil, it wasn't the recent trip on dirt roads with some dirt in the airbox.

My brother had a Volvo P1800 ES that wouldn't run above about 35 mph. A reputable shop in the Bay Area told him the engine was shot. Shortly after he moved to Tucson he took it to a good shop there that gave the same diagnosis. I spent several days on it trying to figure out what was wrong knowing the engine WASN'T shot. I found three flat camshaft lobes and new cam had it running like a top.

[ohiorider]

Holy S***!

It's an internal combustion engine.  The human race has been doing these things for the past 125 years or longer.  I realize it is fun to speculate about the cause of failure.  However, can we not do internal combustion engines right after all this time?

Bob

[pete roper]

Anything can go wrong if it is abused or not assembled correctly Bob.

[Utrider]

My apologies, I've been away for a couple of days.  It's interesting what you say about the cam timing Pete.......have you been into one of these before?  lol

Ok, the service order says "Left cylinder compression is 220 psi, right cylinder is 0 psi. Cam chain on right cylinder skips teeth. Air box was very dirty and had debris in it. Found damage to the right cylinder piston, rings, cylinder and valves. Suggest all new parts and cut new valve seats. Exhaust valve specs on Left cylinder are very loose. Lot of wear on valve seats as it appears it has been sucking debris into the cylinders."

The bike had been using oil for awhile, though certainly not at the pace on this trip.  I have a friend who rides with me a LOT, like thousands of miles over the last few years and he can't recall ever seeing smoke or any other tell tale signs. I usually lead the rides, and he is pretty observant. 

I may have found a "donor" engine!  Here, in UTAH!  I'm working on the particulars, it is in a 2015 Norge, with 7,150 miles on it.  Right now, with not knowing what else is up with the bottom end of the engine in mine, I am pursuing this as a swap.  The Norge has been involved in a front end accident, the forks are bent and there is some damage on the right hand side of the bike.  The engine runs and appears not to be damaged.  Are there any differences between the Norge and Stelvio engines?

I will be tearing the airbox out of this thing and at the very least fixing whatever is wrong that I come across.  Most likely just replace it, it's only a hundred bucks or so.

Thanks again to all who have posted on this, Pete I will get hold of the heads and see if I can get the fuel through as you suggested. 

[Utrider]

Right, first thing is to find where the dirt is getting in and ensuring it can't happen again. Then move on to effecting the repair.

Now the fact it's pushing nothing on the left hand side is very odd and 220 on the right is too high. The fact it's pushing 220 makes me think the cam timing is out on that cylinder, (Go one tooth off one way and cylinder fill is bonkers at cranking speed but it won't bend a valve.) have the valves on the side with no compression been checked? I'm wondering if this is another case of the flinger plate not being installed properly and the timing moving. Are there any witness marks on the top of the piston on the side that isn't pumping?

With a dusted motor you wouldn't expect nothing on one cylinder. Lower, maybe a lot lower, than they 'Good' side but not nothing. You implied that the dead side stopped instantly? It didn't start to miss and hunt or anything? Just stopped instantly? If so, while dust is undoubtably getting in I'm beginning to think that that diagnosis alone as the cause of failure is probably incorrect.

If the heads are off grab them and hold them with first the inlet and then the exhaust port uppermost and pour some petrol into the port. If it gushes straight out of the valves then the timing has slipped and it's biffed a valve.

This is going to be a process of elimination now the heads are off. Methinks if you're lucky you may just get away with rings and valves, (And correct assembly!). You don't have to drop the motor to get the barrels off but you do need to remove the studs, they are glued in good so you need a really good stud extractor to get them out. We have a savage one made by the SnapOn subsidiary Blues Point. It and a long breaker bar made short work of the studs on the one I had recently that dropped its timing and bust a valve.

Pete

Pete, on my way to Vegas (day 1) the bike ran fine.  No noticeable issues at all (other than the oil consumption). Between Vegas and Barstow (day 2) I noticed when I would try to pull higher revs 5500+ it felt like it was missing so I would back it down.  It didn't get any worse, but it was that way all the way to my friends house in O'side.  The next morning (day 3) when we went to go for a ride together was when the right cylinder was dead. I pulled the plug which looked fine and replaced it, didn't have a compression gauge with me, but there was no heat on the pipe.  I thought 0 compression on the dead cylinder was odd as well, maybe like 20 psi or something, but not 0. So the slipped timing may be an issue. 

[pete roper]

OK, some time back we established that if the cam timing was off one tooth on one cylinder it wouldn't bend a valve but the motor runs into a brick wall at 5,500/6,000 rpm.

Now as stated previously if the flinger plate isn't installed correctly the locator peg that times the cam can escape and over time the sprocket can start to move. While unlikely that this would occur on both cylinders it isn't out of the question and here we have an engine that pushes no compression on one side, (Unless the piston has a hole in it almost has to be bent valves.) and the other that is pulling higher cranking poundage, perhaps because the timing is retarding.

While the influx of dirt is definitely not a good thing I think it may be a bit of a red herring in terms of the compression problems which I suspect have a deeper and more obvious cause. Do the flow test on the heads. A well sealing valve shouldn't show any leakage in the form of dampness around the valve head when petrol is poured into the port for at least five seconds. My guess is on the side with zero compression it will just pour straight out of the bent valves.

Pete

[Roebling3]

Following this thread as lead me to wonder if any MG engines are 'clearance' type; where a skip in valve timing does not cause destruction of the top end.  R3~