Author Topic: won't start (Read 1085 times)

nsmith · « **on:** July 31, 2020, 10:04:47 AM »

2000 Jackal had an electrical fire. I have sorted out as much as I can, now I need help. I know for sure the ICU is good because my personal bike runs with it. The fuel pump runs the normal few seconds when key turns on. All the lights blinkers horn everything except the gen light works. So the problem is ZERO spark. Like I said the module is proven good but no spark at the plugs. Any Ideas? How do I check the Camshaft position sensor? or is that even on the radar yet? Thanks Guys.

moto · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2020, 10:35:07 AM »

Can you check if the low-tension signal gets to the coils? If it does, your problem is downstream from there. If not, there could be sensor signals involved.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2020, 11:15:56 AM »

Just check that the ECU power relay is closing' The first time it closes is just a timer, the second time is based on the sensor sending pulses to the ECU
As Moto says check for Voltage downstream of the ECU Power Relay while the bike is turning over, thats a sign the Camshaft Position Sensor is working.
It's not the sort of thing that would easily be damaged by a fire in the loom.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Jackal.gif
The sensor (56) sends pulses to the ECU, the ECU interprets this as the motor is running and turns on relay (50) which powers up (48),(49, (53), (54) & (55)
A small lamp somewhere on the relay output is all you need to tell you the sensor is working.
You may even be able to re-purpose the trouble light (47) to do that by grounding pin 1 however I would take it through a 1 K resistor as a precaution.
PM sent

nsmith · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2020, 12:55:47 PM »

So does the fuel pump kick in because the engine is turning over by the starter or does the RPM have to be higher that that? And can you tell me in what order the relays are on the bike. Like from Left to Right or back to front. I have the diagram but of course it does not show the actual position of things. Thanks

Wildguzzi.com · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2020, 12:55:47 PM »

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2020, 02:24:42 PM »

Quote from: nsmith on July 31, 2020, 12:55:47 PM

So does the fuel pump kick in because the engine is turning over by the starter or does the RPM have to be higher that that? And can you tell me in what order the relays are on the bike. Like from Left to Right or back to front. I have the diagram but of course it does not show the actual position of things. Thanks

The ECU sees that the sensor is picking up and it powers the pump relay, I would imagine it doesn't have to be turning fast at all. Thats why I say if you have a light on the relay all will be revealed.
Other bikes of the era the last relay is the ECU Pump relay, the one before is the ECU Relay
Heres a sketch I did for the Jackals Sister the EV

moto-uno · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2020, 02:56:26 PM »

Love seeing these schematics , but is there anyway they can be turned 90 degrees to reduce neck strain

. Peter

nsmith · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2020, 04:29:30 PM »

This is gonna help a LOT Thanks

Chuck in Indiana · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2020, 04:34:33 PM »

KR is a Guzzi Treasure.

nsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2020, 07:32:20 PM »

KIWI-ROY Thanks, all relays working as the drawing shows. Was told Phase sensor should have continuity, this one has none. so I'm aiming toward a sensor. Any chance there is another way to double check this as I see they can be high dollar (guzzi content).

guzzisteve · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2020, 07:39:31 PM »

I thought they all had a sticker on the inside of the sidecover, my EV does.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:18:22 PM »

Quote from: moto-uno on July 31, 2020, 02:56:26 PM

Love seeing these schematics , but is there anyway they can be turned 90 degrees to reduce neck strain . Peter

No, i'm from down under, it started out upside down.
At least it's not mirror image as some of my drawings come out.
You will have to print it out then you can turn it any way you like.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:21:58 PM »

Quote from: nsmith on July 31, 2020, 07:32:20 PM

KIWI-ROY Thanks, all relays working as the drawing shows. Was told Phase sensor should have continuity, this one has none. so I'm aiming toward a sensor. Any chance there is another way to double check this as I see they can be high dollar (guzzi content).

Yes, it should have continuity, its just a small magnet with a coil wrapped around it, as the steel tooth of the phonic wheel passes by it induces a little AC waveform into the coil.
This is a very early document that describes the sensor/s starting on page 12 680 Ohms it says.
http://dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf It's worth printing out as most of the sensors haven't changed and it gives a good idea of how the EFI system on your Jackal works.
A couple of things are different, this bike has two sensors and they show the fuel pressure regulator plumbed to the manifold vacuum which must have been an old idea.
I bought a used sensor as a spare, if it goes open circuit you can't really fix it.

GeorgiaGuzzi · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2020, 08:36:30 PM »

Quote from: nsmith on July 31, 2020, 07:32:20 PM

KIWI-ROY Thanks, all relays working as the drawing shows. Was told Phase sensor should have continuity, this one has none. so I'm aiming toward a sensor. Any chance there is another way to double check this as I see they can be high dollar (guzzi content).

I have one that was good on my 2000 Quota. I installed a new one during some work recently and have the old one as a spare. If you want it pm me your address and I’ll send it out.

Robert

fotoguzzi · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2020, 07:36:57 AM »

A used cam sensor is in the mail, look for it Tuesday.

StuCorpe · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2020, 09:02:20 AM »

Rotated

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2020, 09:59:40 AM »

Thanks StuCorpe
Note: This drawing was done from a 98EV with the large P8 ECU it shows the wire from the right most relay as Yellow
Carl Allison's drawing shows a later bike with the 15M ECU and shows the wire from the relay as Red/Black but don't let that throw you, they are very similar.

Chuck in Indiana · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2020, 10:44:20 AM »

Quote from: fotoguzzi on August 01, 2020, 07:36:57 AM

A used cam sensor is in the mail, look for it Tuesday.

Gotta love WG..

pehayes · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2020, 10:07:24 PM »

Does the 15M have any sort of fault indicator output the way the P8 has a crude little flashing LED? Likely Guzzidiag could identify this fault. But is there another way absent the software?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2020, 11:20:31 PM »

The schematic does show one item (47) but I suspect it wasn't on all models.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Jackal.gif I never got the one on my EV with a P8 to work even if I simulated a fault, mind you I never tried that hard. It seemed to be dropped about 2004
I don't think it stored any faults, only showed what was current.
Actually I don't think there's anything more alien on a motorbike than a laptop, mine tries to commit suicide any chance it can get., It's useless in bright sunlight and I cannot run the bike in the basement of the apartment.

SmithSwede · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2020, 11:18:09 PM »

Quote from: nsmith on July 31, 2020, 07:32:20 PM

Any chance there is another way to double check this as I see they can be high dollar (guzzi content).

Sounds like you have a free one on the way. FYI, cam phase sensor for the small block was ridiculously priced. Turns out it is a common part for Fiats and other machines, and you can get them much cheaper. I bet that is true for the big blocks too.

News:

Author Topic: won't start (Read 1085 times)

Wildguzzi.com

GeorgiaGuzzi