Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo

[kevdog3019]

Does anyone actually know whether it will be a Heron head?  If it is a kit it may well be a late pentroof or hemi design; in fact, if they were going to all the trouble to come up with a kit with barrels, pistons and heads, surely they would go the whole hog and do what Guzzi should be doing but aren't and that is do what Chuck and Kev have done.

As of now it looks like Lario-type heads much like mwren put in his modern V7. The results were tasty. Throw in an 820 and possible other goodies (still speculation on my part) and as I said before, it will be a game-changer. Look up V7 with Lario heads and you'll see Mike's story. Don't take my word.

[kevdog3019]

Why defend the putrid performance of a mini bike built in Italy? Come on! We are talking about a machine that will fall off a cliff at 180 and only brake to a full stop at ground level. It is a spineless piece of shit. Get it? No Point in discussing 'performance'. There is none.
Aesthetics is the strong point of the V7. And that's where your perspective and mine part. Short pipes aren't about trendy bullshit kid's rides. They are about visual balance. Long pipes create leading lines that take the eye past the end of the machine. They are the lower part of the rule of thirds. Good visual technique brings the attention to the subject; it doesn't draw it away without very good reason. To me long pipes are as ugly as ape hangers. And, even ape hangers bring focus to the centre. I would find it very depressing if there truly is no engineering solution beyond the status quo.

I do believe engineering and aesthetics are two different things. What I believe you have done is aesthetics.

[Vasco DG]

So? You are saying that Todd has invested in the engineering and production of head castings and then got suitable pistons and barrels to essentially completely re-engineer the top end of a modern smallblock? Impressive if he has. What suggestions for fueling? It would be pointless with the single MUIG3 throttlebody/ECM so I suppose it will require some other sort of TB mechanism and ECU? That will mean a new loom and re-design of the airbox and under-tank area. Valves? Springs? Cam lobe sizes and timing figures? Heat dispersant capabilities? This is all serious stuff.

The stock TB's off an earlier bike will be too small to do justice to higher flow and pump rates so what is going to be used. There are heaps of suitable, larger, TB's out there but buying them second hand is a bit of a pig in a poke. Then you have to mount them rigidly if you want them to stay in tune accurately.

Gosh. We're looking at pretty big $$$$'s here. I wish him luck.

Pete

[sib]

Sorry. But what part of the laws of physics is it you don't understand? I can fully appreciate the aesthetic attraction but form should compliment function, not fight with it!

Actually, it should complement function, not compliment it.

[Vasco DG]

Sorry, spell check malfunction, my bad, shit not given!

Pete

[Yukonica]

Having re-read this thread: point taken Pete. Short pipes won't work effectively. Before I bin them I'd like to know why they work so much better with the baffles in place. Entirely hated them without DB killers and other than the feeling problem when snapping it wide open can live with them with baffles in place? Can better baffles be designed? Along the lines of expansion chambers on two strokes? Just curious.

[Vasco DG]

Just about to go to sleep. Chances are I'll be awake in four hours. I'll reply then.

Pete

[Kev m]

Having re-read this thread: point taken Pete. Short pipes won't work effectively. Before I bin them I'd like to know why they work so much better with the baffles in place.

The short answer (that I suspect Pete will expound upon when he gets up) is that baffles change the sound waves and, when the right change is made you stop or lesson the reversion which is killing volumetric efficiency at certain points in the rpm band without them.

On Harleys the typical anti-social rider who blindly installs straight pipes finds reversion that kills his midrange (right where most of us ride) and the redneck engineering solution that helps (but doesn't completely solve it) is to install lollipops (eyelets) threaded into the pipes near the end to break up the sound waves.

[pyoungbl]

On Harleys the typical anti-social rider who blindly installs straight pipes finds reversion that kills his midrange (right where most of us ride) and the redneck engineering solution that helps (but doesn't completely solve it) is to install lollipops (eyelets) threaded into the pipes near the end to break up the sound waves.

Kev, this brings back memories of a Honda 350 Scrambler I had about 50 years ago.  The popular mod was to remove the muffler and install "snuffers" in the end of the pipes.  The "snuffers" were essentially a washer that pivoted on a shaft.  For loud attention getting just rotate the washers to the open position, for a better running bike just rotate to the closed position.  In my teen aged  mind the loud setting was what I wanted but you could feel better performance with the quieter setup.  We knew nothing about sound waves and all that stuff.  Now I'm happy to have a quieter machine that does not make my hearing any worse.  Ah, wisdom is a long time coming.

[Kev m]

Kev, this brings back memories of a Honda 350 Scrambler I had about 50 years ago.  The popular mod was to remove the muffler and install "snuffers" in the end of the pipes.  The "snuffers" were essentially a washer that pivoted on a shaft.  For loud attention getting just rotate the washers to the open position, for a better running bike just rotate to the closed position.  In my teen aged  mind the loud setting was what I wanted but you could feel better performance with the quieter setup.  We knew nothing about sound waves and all that stuff.  Now I'm happy to have a quieter machine that does not make my hearing any worse.  Ah, wisdom is a long time coming.

YUP, a washer welded to the end of a bolt is another version of what I'm describing, though they're all small enough that they're still obnoxiously loud enough on Harley straight pipes no matter how they are facing.

[kevdog3019]

So? You are saying that Todd has invested in the engineering and production of head castings and then got suitable pistons and barrels to essentially completely re-engineer the top end of a modern smallblock? Impressive if he has. What suggestions for fueling? It would be pointless with the single MUIG3 throttlebody/ECM so I suppose it will require some other sort of TB mechanism and ECU? That will mean a new loom and re-design of the airbox and under-tank area. Valves? Springs? Cam lobe sizes and timing figures? Heat dispersant capabilities? This is all serious stuff.

The stock TB's off an earlier bike will be too small to do justice to higher flow and pump rates so what is going to be used. There are heaps of suitable, larger, TB's out there but buying them second hand is a bit of a pig in a poke. Then you have to mount them rigidly if you want them to stay in tune accurately.

Gosh. We're looking at pretty big $$$$'s here. I wish him luck.

Pete

Nope... I haven't said much as I don't know much. I think you have expounded on things neither of us knows at this time. I do know that Lario heads work on the current V7 w/o significant mapping needed.

[Guido Valvole]

Probably way off topic on everything here but that's what I like about this group.  I just looked for the V7 Sport smallblock test mule in my copy of Colombo's book. It's a 350. No, that's not going anywhere too quickly -- but a good and then readily-available test bed.

Re: Heron vs hemi and all that. A good reference is "The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines" by Philip H. Smith. Robert Bentley, publisher. Still available afaik. Goes through the good and bad of pretty much everything to be considered inside of an engine, and with examples. Has been updated continuously since original publication in the 50s. And has equations for figuring out optimum intake and exhaust lengths.

Hemis worked with compression ratios around 8:1 or so, best that could work with low-octane fuel of the past. The Cosworth DFV killed them off. Don't know how "hemi" current drag race engines are but they're kinda specialized…

The Heron head was primarily used for cost reasons. Yeah, the Cosworth SCA used it, kind of, but rebuild photos I found here http://www.lotus7.com/COSWORTH_SCA.html don't look much like dished pistons, just extra clearance at the top of the stroke. Cost was a consideration. And the SCA used downdraft intake ports to get a good, straight airflow into the combustion chambers. Can't do that with stock Guzzi heads and no point in making ones that could if you think about the geometry.

The SCA has been mentioned as an inspiration for the SOHC heads used in the Repco-modified Oldsmobile V8 that got Jack Brabham his third world driving championship and first constructor's championship but there was only some inspiration, combustion chambers were fairly conventional wedge-type. I think early Jaguar V12s used Heron heads. THose engines are fine boat anchors�

I love old smallblocks anyway. It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than it is to ride a fast bike slow.
cr

[kevdog3019]

Wait , aren't Lario heads basically hand grenades waiting for someone to pull the pin ? Just what everyone needs , a very expensive mod that goes boom  If ya wanna go fast , start out with something fast 

  Dusty

Ahh... What you don't know won't kill ya'. 
Your last statement speaks volumes in naivety.  That's such an overused under-thought expression.  Grin I'll except, but truth I know better.

[bad Chad]

Rednecks, and redneck wannabes  around these parts love to advertise on the side of the Ram pickum up trucks that they have a HEMI!   Guy got out of a big yellow one today, with a orange HEMI cap on, I was getting on my BREVA 1100, I said this has a HEMI, he just looked and me and wondered off.  <shrug>

PS  I stoled the <shrug> thing from that old guy in Indiana with a dam full head of curly hair!

[not-fishing]

I don't see how you can expect a one box approach to fueling (ECU remap).

Please forgive me for being old school but when I "improved" my 400F back in '76 I had the bike rejetted and Dyno-tuned with the "best-guess" jet change and Dyno to confirm the revised power.

My Griso has an ECU -remap and ran fine with old exhaust.  With my new 20+ lb lighter exhaust I expected to have to re-tune. 

My expected solution is  a Power Commander V with Auto Tune and possibly another re-flash.

Yes, I know selling my G1100 and buying a G1200 -8v may be a wiser move I've grown fond of my G1100.

[Vasco DG]

Wow! I actually got a full nights sleep. First time in years! Amazing!

Look at the end of the day it's not worth arguing over but the fact that the OP's example bike runs poorly and won't rev out rather confirms my point and argument don't you think?

If people want to do stuff for cosmetic reasons,either visual or auditory, go ahead! Knock yer selves out! It's no skin off my nose. All I'm hoping to do is convince people who are interested in having a bike that runs well that they are wasting their money and will actually risk damaging their machines if they purchase and fit something built with so little knowledge and understanding.

I actually like the single TB smallblocks and the six speed gearbox is a gem but you're not going to get ANY real performance increase without a LOT of work and most importantly an understanding of how engines work.

Pete

[kevdog3019]

Wow! I actually got a full nights sleep. First time in years! Amazing!

Look at the end of the day it's not worth arguing over but the fact that the OP's example bike runs poorly and won't rev out rather confirms my point and argument don't you think?

If people want to do stuff for cosmetic reasons,either visual or auditory, go ahead! Knock yer selves out! It's no skin off my nose. All I'm hoping to do is convince people who are interested in having a bike that runs well that they are wasting their money and will actually risk damaging their machines if they purchase and fit something built with so little knowledge and understanding.

I actually like the single TB smallblocks and the six speed gearbox is a gem but you're not going to get ANY real performance increase without a LOT of work and most importantly an understanding of how engines work.


Pete

Amen to that statement! 

[Yukonica]

Wow! I actually got a full nights sleep. First time in years! Amazing!
{congratulations... please send the recipe}
Look at the end of the day it's not worth arguing over but the fact that the OP's example bike runs poorly and won't rev out rather confirms my point and argument don't you think?
{Could not agree more... A) it is not worthy of argument, B) you are undoubtedly correct.}
If people want to do stuff for cosmetic reasons,either visual or auditory, go ahead! Knock yer selves out! It's no skin off my nose.
{Thank you; a skinless nose is an unhappy nose... wish there were a solution to melding aesthetics and mechanical efficiency}
All I'm hoping to do is convince people who are interested in having a bike that runs well that they are wasting their money and will actually risk damaging their machines if they purchase and fit something built with so little knowledge and understanding.
{you've made me re-think my Mistrals. Still, that company has been building parts in the backyard of our marque for the past fifteen years; surely they must have some technical background}
I actually like the single TB smallblocks and the six speed gearbox is a gem but you're not going to get ANY real performance increase without a LOT of work and most importantly an understanding of how engines work.
{Agreed: anyone looking to a V7 for performance has had two too many puffs on the arthritis medicine}
~ still it is a lovely machine for puttering about and enjoying but if you are chasing adrenaline spend the money on a Shiver

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Mistral build a good pipe, the Mistral Hi-Pipe is without a doubt the best available aftermarket can for the 8V Griso, as long as the dB killer is left in and it's mapped appropriately. I don't doubt that their aftermarket offerings will be of similar quality BUT chances are with the Nuovo Smallblocks a lot more thought was given to making them aesthetically pleasing rather than thinking about how they would actually affect performance. With dB killers in and a closed loop map the ECU will at least attempt to trim. Turn the Lamda off though and you are at the mercy of the map. If the map has been built by someone who thinks that all modern engines are forced to run lean by the evil gubmint and all you have to do to release the inner demon is throw more fuel at the engine you're on a hiding to nothing.

Pete

[Yukonica]

BUT chances are with the Nuovo Smallblocks a lot more thought was given to making them aesthetically pleasing rather than thinking about how they would actually affect performance.{LOL ~ come on... no business would intentionally build for aesthetics only... would they?} With dB killers in and a closed loop map the ECU will at least attempt to trim. Turn the Lamda off though and you are at the mercy of the map.{Can't! it is a MUIG3...you can look but you can't touch}  If the map has been built by someone who thinks that all modern engines are forced to run lean by the evil gubmint and all you have to do to rele ase the inner demon is throw more fuel at the engine you're on a hiding to nothing.
{may I explain 'hiding' to our non Commonwealth speakers? ~ Thinking back to stealing the coils off my brother's triumph because he was a dickhead... and getting caught.}
Pete
[/quote]

[Vasco DG]

While I'm not sure I think Rexxer Proffessional will allow access to the MUI 3 mapping. Not sure though. Still needs someone who knows what they're doing to build a decent map.

Pete

[pyoungbl]

Rexxer does allow access to the MUI 3 (single throttle body) mapping.  My bike has a revised map and runs open loop.  I have plugged the lambda holes!  Dave Lillard (Rexxer distributor for the US) has developed maps for the V7 and provides same to a well known seller of V7 upgrades.  If you get a remapped MUI 3 it came from Dave.

Peter Y.

[tonUPRacer]

I wonder if he switches to the longer exhaust from the shorty that might improve his high speed performance? I think he was planning to make the switch simply because of the loud factor. I'll post an update if I get a chance to test. Pete and Jim B. have saved me money, time and frustration by keeping my V7 mostly stock or at least with MG designed parts (Arrow cans).

[Rough Edge racing]

 The relationship between exhaust pipe length and diameter, cam and intake system is quite complicated and interwoven. Change one and you may have modify the others. Some engines don't care, my experience on old Triumph 650/750's is 38 inch long open pipes increase mid range power and might cause a slight loss at top end. Running just the head pipes with no mufflers on my 1000 Guzzi increased power slightly all through the RPM ranges. A stock Harley with open drag pipes will suffer some reversion unless the tuned properly...My 97 Buell with the stock two into one pipe responds well to a free flow muffler.. Modern fuel injected engines generally less tolerant of exhaust changes...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ahh... What you don't know won't kill ya'. 
Your last statement speaks volumes in naivety.  That's such an overused under-thought expression.  Grin I'll except, but truth I know better.

Truth is, you *think* you know better.  I know of no high mileage 4 valve Larios. None. Nada. Zip. The highest mileage one I know of is 17K miles. He's owned it from new, and says he has religiously observed a 7000 rpm limit. Believe me, I've talked to a *lot* of Lario and x Lario guys over the last year or so. Will your quite expensive engine pass the test of time? Seriously, nobody knows. DLC is implicated in the big block 4V valve train failures. Megacycle quit building Lario cams for a reason. All I'm saying is the jury is still out on the four valve small block.

[kevdog3019]

Truth is, you *think* you know better.  I know of no high mileage 4 valve Larios. None. Nada. Zip. The highest mileage one I know of is 17K miles. He's owned it from new, and says he has religiously observed a 7000 rpm limit. Believe me, I've talked to a *lot* of Lario and x Lario guys over the last year or so. Will your quite expensive engine pass the test of time? Seriously, nobody knows. DLC is implicated in the big block 4V valve train failures. Megacycle quit building Lario cams for a reason. All I'm saying is the jury is still out on the four valve small block.

 I own an original Lario that had 19K on it without mods when I bought it.  Truth is nobody knows the secret recipe and I don't claim to know anymore than anyone else, but I do think it's more than a cam or springs.  My gut tells me you need quality pieces EVERYWHERE.  All it takes is one to fail since it's a chain. I've NEVER heard of any owner actually fitting all new high quality parts in a lario head.  So... while we talk to these folks with low miles and exploded heads, has anyone ever completely gone through and fitted quality parts instead of just a cam or springs?  I'll say it again... Guzzi stock valves suck (to put it bluntly) and Ed said he wouldn't even consider the Chinese knockoffs. I sent him those Chinese valves to look at.  Why do people keep playing with fire?  If mine fails then I will be the first to say quality bits didn't work, darn. We should give it a fair shake anyhow and I honestly feel people have failed this engine.
 
p.s. I wouldn't build cams for a bike I knew people would stick cheap parts in either (and rev the shite out of).   

[kevdog3019]

Thanks Chuckie . I have many failings KD , naivete is NOT one of them 

  Dusty

What Chuck said has nothing to do with the naivety I mentioned.  It has nothing to do with the Lario but a statement you made.     

[Vasco DG]

Back in the day when I was working on the smallblock 4V's and they were new, (This was in the UK many, many years ago!) I never saw a cam or tappet failure. Not one. What they did do was shed valve heads like confetti! Usually exhausts but sometimes inlets. It was this that made me label them as grenades. There was one brand new V75 slid by the shop I worked at in London that didn't even make it to Bristol, about 120 miles away, before it shed a valve head!

Whatever the underlying cause they were really awful which was a shame because they are small and light and fun to fling about.

Pete

[Wisconsinv7racer]

Hi I'm the guy with the v7 racer that has Guzzi techs products on which was referred to in this post.  First off I'm 100 percent happy with everything I have bought from Todd. Everything I bought was for looks and sound and also performance.  I wanted it loud so it doesn't sound like a moped.  It runs great I have not noticed the issue of the flat spot on top end which was mentioned.  The air box mod was just a ring for the filter instead of the plastic cover.  I like the ecu remap and think it runs great and pulls hard.  I would definitely buy everything again. 

[Vasco DG]

Well that's good then.