Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo

[sib]

Well, I'm also 100% happy with my V7-II Stone, as I was with the V7 Stone that preceded it.  Both run great, no flat spots or other fueling problems, pull strong, sound good to my ears.  The only difference is that mine are absolutely stock.  The V7 did need an ECU software update, but the V7-II didn't.  Otherwise, I think Moto Guzzi's engineers did a great job, certainly better than I could have done, and I also suspect better than most or all of the third-party mod "specialists".  Think of all the money I've saved by not buying unnecessary mods.  To each his/her own, or in text-speak, YMMV.  Happy and safe riding.

[Zinfan]

Hi I'm the guy with the v7 racer that has Guzzi techs products on which was referred to in this post.  First off I'm 100 percent happy with everything I have bought from Todd. Everything I bought was for looks and sound and also performance.  I wanted it loud so it doesn't sound like a moped.  It runs great I have not noticed the issue of the flat spot on top end which was mentioned.  The air box mod was just a ring for the filter instead of the plastic cover.  I like the ecu remap and think it runs great and pulls hard.  I would definitely buy everything again.

Welcome aboard and enjoy your bike.  I have the Todd remap and 2:2 exhaust and I like it, probably not as loud as yours but it does give a nice tone.  Can't seem to embed this but here is a quick video I took of what my exhaust sounds like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8zfE8vRJTc

[tonUPRacer]

Hi I'm the guy with the v7 racer that has Guzzi techs products on which was referred to in this post.  First off I'm 100 percent happy with everything I have bought from Todd. Everything I bought was for looks and sound and also performance.  I wanted it loud so it doesn't sound like a moped.  It runs great I have not noticed the issue of the flat spot on top end which was mentioned.  The air box mod was just a ring for the filter instead of the plastic cover.  I like the ecu remap and think it runs great and pulls hard.  I would definitely buy everything again.

Thank you for chiming in and my apologies for getting this whole business started. I'll make that apology in person with a  next time. You've done some very cool mods to the bike and it was awesome to try it out.

[kevdog3019]

 

Well alrighty then , and yes , really don't know anything about Larios , really was just poking a bit of fun . Wasn't trying to start a fight or hurt anyone's feelings . Apologies all around . Having had a close up of Mike Wrenn's creation , it is an amazing device  However , Chuckie probably knows more about engines than any three of us put together , well , maybe excluding Pete 

  Dusty

It's nothing you said about the Lario Dusty, I laugh like everyone else at the pokes at this machine.  I don't claim to know Jack about engines, but I do look at things as a whole.  To me it simply adds up to an engine is only as strong as its weakest link. The Lario sheds valve heads is a fact as Pete points out.  There are lots of theories, but the vast majority (yes, nearly everyone!) puts crap valves back in it.  I may agree on strengthening other areas, but this decision makes little sense to me in logic.  Frugality may be at play.        

[Vasco DG]

If you look at a Lario head casting you'll see there are two things very notable about it. Firstly the lack of finning and secondly if you examine the area of the casting between the inlet and exhaust ports there is comparatively little material there.

It is my belief that the problems this creates are three fold. Firstly, there simply isn't enough material for heat to be conducted away from the combustion chamber and most particularly the exhaust valve seats. This also leads to uneven heat soak back when the valves are seated which will impose further un-necessary strains on the valve material. Thirdly, the stock valves weren't exactly crash hot.

Using better valves and changing the spring arrangement and seat pressure will help but to my mind it's treating the symptom rather than the cause which is simply that there isn't enough material to conduct the heat away and even if it can get away there is insufficient finning to dissipate it.

Just a theory but at least it's based on observation and analysis rather than the scattergun approach used by snaggle toothed crystal ball gazers

Pete

[kevdog3019]

Yes, I have noticed that Pete as I've heard you make mention before and I certainly agree this may be an underlying inherent culprit. My feeling is I can't change that, but the things I do have control over I have. Alleviating stress, strengthening wear items, and using better materials is my hope for something that will last. How it's ridden can also be controlled so revving the shite out of it isn't in the playing cards. I've got to believe it will help. Now with the higher compression, bigger valves, more fuel, et al I'm not certain what this will do to the mix.
I've heard the same tired stories with the use of the same tired materials. In every case of failure the same basic materials were used and the so called "fix" for the part that's breaking uses those same poorly manufactured materials to this day.

[oldbike54]

 Call me naive , but at what RPM are we "revving the shit " out of a Lario ? 
 
  Dusty

[kevdog3019]

Call me naive , but at what RPM are we "revving the shit " out of a Lario ? 
 
  Dusty

Anything over 7k is very unnecessary in my book and what I would consider getting in the danger zone.  I probably haven't gone much over 6500 on mine, but its "go power" comes on much sooner and feels big down low.  My feeling is the stockers are pretty mundane down low and pretty exciting up top, so this is where many spent their days.  No limiter of course, so...

Now this brings us to that statement you made earlier about buying a fast bike instead of modifying an existing one. Maybe you notice my revs are down. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Now with the higher compression, bigger valves, more fuel, et al I'm not certain what this will do to the mix.

Me, either, but I have a pretty good idea..

[kevdog3019]

Me, either, but I have a pretty good idea..

No Chinese valves though Chuck! 

[oldbike54]

KD , wouldn't it have been cheaper to just buy a Ducati ?

  Dusty

[kevdog3019]

KD , wouldn't it have been cheaper to just buy a Ducati ?

  Dusty

If I was guaranteed the same Guzzi feel to the engine (just more of it), weight, frame characteristics and ergos , shocks, brakes, et al and appearance perhaps. Finding one I can work on as easily probably not. There's just too much going for this bike for the money invested and it wasn't THAT expensive. A Ducati isn't a Guzzi in many ways. That's the catch with buying something else that's faster. 
I didn't do this for more speed either. I did it to build more character I wanted in this engine. I simply felt there was more character to be had. That's why you do custom stuff so you can make something what you want. Worked out that way anyhow. Speed is super silly easy to be had in a bike if you buy one with speed, but to think that that's only what people want is rather naive. 

[oldbike54]

If I was guaranteed the same Guzzi feel to the engine (just more of it), weight, frame characteristics and ergos , shocks, brakes, et al and appearance perhaps. Finding one I can work on as easily probably not. There's just too much going for this bike for the money invested and it wasn't THAT expensive. A Ducati isn't a Guzzi in many ways. That's the catch with buying something else that's faster. 

 

 Recently a guy said to me , "Moto Guzzi , kind of a brother to Ducati" . Straitened him out , "No , more like a distant cousin , we don't claim Ducatis at family gatherings" 

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Call me naive , but at what RPM are we "revving the shit " out of a Lario ? 
 
  Dusty

Redline is 7800. My stock Lario experience.. nothing much happens before 4K.. started to come alive at around 6k, and then there was a nice rush to the redline.  Ace Mallot (dealt with a lot of them back in the day) says because they were still really getting it at redline, he's convinced that many blew up just because they were over revved. It's a fun engine to operate, and I agree. They are super easy to over rev. Probably should have a rev limiter on one.

[oldbike54]

Redline is 7800. My stock Lario experience.. nothing much happens before 4K.. started to come alive at around 6k, and then there was a nice rush to the redline.  Ace Mallot (dealt with a lot of them back in the day) says because they were still really getting it at redline, he's convinced that many blew up just because they were over revved. It's a fun engine to operate, and I agree. They are super easy to over rev. Probably should have a rev limiter on one.
[/quote

 I am convinced that running my old /5 at 90 percent of redline is what broke the valve , of course it took 150K miles to do it 

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Redline is 7800. My stock Lario experience.. nothing much happens before 4K.. started to come alive at around 6k, and then there was a nice rush to the redline.  Ace Mallot (dealt with a lot of them back in the day) says because they were still really getting it at redline, he's convinced that many blew up just because they were over revved. It's a fun engine to operate, and I agree. They are super easy to over rev. Probably should have a rev limiter on one.
[/quote

 I am convinced that running my old /5 at 90 percent of redline is what broke the valve , of course it took 150K miles to do it 

  Dusty

What was that? About 2300? 

[oldbike54]

 I knew that was coming  Of course 5500 RPMs was necessary to keep up with all of those fast riding partners on their massively powerful MGs 

  Dusty

[Yukonica]

Tossing this one specifically to Pete and Paul for advice. Reading through this thread convinced me that my expectations of ECU self adjusting to Mistral shorties (baffles-in) was not going to happen. My experience after 2k km from a power-cycled battery confirmed: most of it was good but don't put the hammer down. So I disconnected the battery and put the stock pipes back on. Reset has been less than pleasant so far.
From what I've read:after a re-set take a long ride at a constant throttle. Not sure what a long ride is. Round trip to work and back is 70k. No traffic, three stops each way. Five minutes of stop and go.  Have done that tour four times since reset. Pretty close to 300km of travel at 4k rpm.
Bike still can't deal with cracking the throttle open one gear lower than one would normally use for passing.
I'm headed for Skagway this weekend. I have 180km each way to set throttle defaults.
What is the optimal rpm to run at? Anything you care to add before I hit the pouring button?
thank you ... yet again.

[Vasco DG]

 No, staying at a constant throttle means it will trim. Just at that point! You want it to trim throughout the range, so, remembering that it takes a couple of seconds for the dumber than dogshit narrow band sensor to react just ride at all sorts of loads and RPM's in all gears, (The torque tables are different with the different gears.) and give it as much variety as possible. Of its misbehaving at one point? Try and find it and ride in it. It can't trim that area if you don't ride in it.

Pete

[Yukonica]

No, staying at a constant throttle means it will trim. Just at that point! You want it to trim throughout the range, so, remembering that it takes a couple of seconds for the dumber than dogshit narrow band sensor to react just ride at all sorts of loads and RPM's in all gears, (The torque tables are different with the different gears.) and give it as much variety as possible. Of its misbehaving at one point? Try and find it and ride in it. It can't trim that area if you don't ride in it.

Pete

That's why we should ask questions. Cool, and thank you. 
It currently loves 4k. Now let's mix it up.... Going to feel silly riding the straight stretch to town in first and second :)

[Wisconsinv7racer]

Just wanted to say I did switch to the longer pipe from the stubby and it does run better since it was reflashed for the long one.  But it ran good even with the stubby but I can tell a diffrent with the proper pipe.  Looking forward to my riding partner trying it out this way.  Very quick and pulls hard with no decipal popping. And sounds like a bike should.

[tonUPRacer]

Just wanted to say I did switch to the longer pipe from the stubby and it does run better since it was reflashed for the long one.  But it ran good even with the stubby but I can tell a diffrent with the proper pipe.  Looking forward to my riding partner trying it out this way.  Very quick and pulls hard with no decipal popping. And sounds like a bike should.

Sounds like a plan! look forward to another "bike swap".

[Yukonica]

  better if you actually write something before hitting 'post'....
I've just done a 400km round trip from 2500' to mountain pass to sea level and back. Rode every gear at every conceivable throttle opening. Bike still runs like S--- if I crack the throttle quickly. Doesn't like 2500 rpm in town in any gear. Over fuels off the light.
I'm going to reset one more time. If that doesn't work I'm buying a second ECU and having it flashed before being sent up; unless someone has a suggestion.  At highway speeds and with a gentle throttle hand the bike is charming. Try to make it work and it dumps the Cinderella costume.

I have the leads and the software for Guzzidiag. The only active option I see is the throttle stepper. The left cylinder appears to fuel a bit faster than the right and exhaust pipes show different bluing.
Should I look to the valve timing? Should I be checking the joints throughout the exhaust system?
 :) Tire pressure? I'll look at every option out there.
Thx in advance for advice.

[DucDucGuzz]

Late chime-in... but I have a '13 V7 Stone with Mistrals (not shorties) with removed db killers, BMC filter, and ECU reflash via Rexxer/PPR map. At over just 7500 miles now, my bike easily pulls strong to over 100mph and with very little decel popping.  I'd love to experience an A/B comparison with Guzzitechs mods as well. I opted not to go with GT's updates primarily due to cost.  But I don't feel as if I'm as a huge disadvantage with my selected updates, especially after reading the OP's feedback.

Next update is another go at my forks.  Andreani kit on it's way.

[Trevor G]

People like Ed Milich have spent years doing ongoing development work on the smallblocks and while porting may give some benefits it will be re-camming and valvetrain changes that will be paying the highest dividends.

 People have been trying to, claiming and failing to get radical increases in performance for all forty of those years and their efforts to get cheap horsepower out of the engine has always borne the same disappointing results.

Pete

I have one of Ed's ported and over-bored 850cc heron head "masterpieces" in a Nevada and the thing flies like no smallblock.  It would eat a Lario.

And yes, I know this is an old thread but if any Lario owner wants to run against me I am happy to provide a spare set of valves I have back in Australia if he (or she) can beat me up to 100mph.  ;-)

Oh, I just noticed the words "cheap horsepower."   Whoever said horsepower was cheap? 

[pete roper]

I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)

Pete

[kevdog3019]

I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)

Pete

Pete, define "a lot" please.

[pete roper]

He does good stuff based on engineering principles and understands the laws of physics. That is a 'Fuquetonne', (A universal unit of measurement!) more than some self proclaimed *Experts*.

[kevdog3019]

He does good stuff based on engineering principles and understands the laws of physics. That is a 'Fuquetonne', (A universal unit of measurement!) more than some self proclaimed *Experts*.

Yes... but I meant "a lot" in regards to gains not Ed's work and your admiration. 🙄

[lucydad]

Hmmm, my stock V7R will do the ton, downhill, given a 90 mph entry speed on sweeper curve. Engine starts complaining above 6500 rpm, its not made for much of that stuff...

Why not just buy a more powerful bike?  Seems like trying to make more power out of a Honda twin 175....just ain't there.