Author Topic: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo  (Read 28967 times)

Offline Toecutter

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2016, 08:37:08 AM »
Strange.

My wife and I went on a weekend camping trip this past few days. Non stop rain, 50 km of snot-slick dirt road, and 1000 km of pavement... and on the home stretch the stock V7 Special did 170+ km/h (indicated) on level ground even! So, adjusted for the 4% it seems to be out... about 163 kmh) Is it a crotch rocket? No, but I had wanted a crotch rocket, I'd have bought one.

Where and how are you guys riding that so many of you heap so much derision on this bike? "Cracks the ton downhill"... "only reaches 180 when thrown off a cliff", "mini-bike from Italy", I don't get it.

Ehh, whatever. I don't understand this common trait of V7 owners needing to insult the bike as though a) it's something it's not and B) shitting on what it is.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 08:40:49 AM by Toecutter »
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Online sib

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2016, 08:44:32 AM »
Strange.

My wife and I went on a weekend camping trip this past few days. Non stop rain, 50 km of snot-slick dirt road, and 1000 km of pavement... and on the home stretch the stock V7 Special did 170 km/h on level ground even! Is it a crotch rocket? No, but I had wanted a crotch rocket, I'd have bought one.

Where and how are you guys riding that so many of you heap so much derision on this bike? "Cracks the ton downhill"... "only reaches 180 when thrown off a cliff", "mini-bike from Italy", I don't get it.

Ehh, whatever. I don't understand this common trait of V7 owners needing to insult the bike as though a) it's something it's not and B) shitting on what it is.
I'm with you, Toecutter.  My '16 Stone, and the '13 Stone before it, runs/ran great, no mods needed or wanted, easily powerful enough for me, no stalling/sputtering/hesitating/popping over a combined 24,000 mi.  The stock suspension is fine.  I have no interest in cracking the century but it gets up to 90 mph pretty fast.  Complainers gonna complain.
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Offline tonUPRacer

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2016, 08:54:48 AM »
Funny this post just popped up again. As it happens I realized yesterday that I owe Todd an online apology. I was doing my usual commute into work, I realized I hadn't "done the ton" all summer. So I had a nice clear stretch tucked in an opened her up. I'm just about ready to hit the ton and all of sudden things start popping and mis-firing and I realize I'm only in 4th gear and hit the rev-limiter.

I take another run this time in 5th and top out at 109. I then recall the experience on my friend's GT V7 and realize I was probably in 4th gear. So yeah, I'm an idiot. Obviously, I don't need a more powerful bike or 6 speeds, I wouldn't remember to shift.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2016, 09:37:01 AM »
This isn't about need for hp; it's about tweaking.
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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2016, 09:37:01 AM »

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2016, 01:19:38 PM »
I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)

Pete
I still want "a lot" as seen above defined by Ropers eyes.
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Offline DucDucGuzz

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #95 on: August 02, 2016, 04:07:23 PM »
Reading many of the comments made me chuckle. If you want the bike stock... great! If you want to update the bike for aesthetic & aural reasons... great! If you believe your updates improve "performance"... great! Do what you want. It's YOUR motorcycle, YOUR money.

Some here seemingly self-deprecate on the V7's performance, lack thereof, or complete absence of.  But it strikes me odd when I just rode my "Italian mini bike with putrid performance" this weekend for 260 miles on beautiful, coastal twisties in the North Bay (California) with my squad of friends on their Ducatis and Aprilia.  The Guzzi looked good, sounded good, and performed well as it took turns leading the group.  It's 50 hp was not a limiting factor on this ride.  We dispatched 260 tight & twisty miles post haste.

Here's the funniest thing I read here so far...  " I don't give a rats ass about performance. If I wanted performance I'd own a whole different marque. I enjoy the lines and visceral pleasure of 'motoring'."  :thumb:

Happy "motoring" everyone!   :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
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Offline Seamaster

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2016, 05:08:27 PM »
One thing that no body has mentioned her is the riders weight, that could be easily 80lbs difference!
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pete roper

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2016, 05:15:04 PM »
Yes... but I meant "a lot" in regards to gains not Ed's work and your admiration. 🙄

Sorry, my misunderstanding. Without major flow work, re-camming, possibly re designing the piston crowns and a lengthy tuning process anything more than a very few percent maximum power increase is going to be possible. With the Herron head you are turning both the incoming and exhausted charges through a very tight 90* bend to enter and exit the combustion chamber and on the 8V the charge transition issues at certain points are horrendous, especially at high load/wide throttle points. That's why the 8V is so bloody thirsty if you thrash it! You waste a lot of charge! If you could miraculously keep it in the cylinder the motor would make 10-15 more HP!

Pete

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #98 on: August 02, 2016, 05:54:55 PM »
Yes Pete, I agree with your assessment w/o major re-working. I'm not certain anyone here that has tweaked a thing or two has been so rude as to say everyone left stock has a smaller pe%^s. Why all the dismissal of someone who decides to pull a couple extra ponies? It's not done at anyone's expense from what I'm reading. Your own insecurities are rearing their head. Yes... a stock bike is just as capable. Now put it back in your pants.  :shocked:
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Offline Bonafide Bob

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #99 on: August 02, 2016, 06:32:08 PM »
I am reminded of something my old racing friends used to say..." To much Horsepower is still not enough"

Bob
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #100 on: August 02, 2016, 06:33:27 PM »
As far as hoo haw size goes , I'm reminded of something Dick Mann said to a young racer in the pits at the old Tulsa 1/2 Mile . The young racer and his mechanic were discussing engine mods with Mr Mann when Dick asked if the young racer could hold the throttle open all the way around the track . The young racer said no , to which Dick replied , "well young man , when you can do that , then start spending money on your engine"  :laugh: I don't believe anyone ever questioned the size of Dick's ...

 Dusty

Uhhh, this, I think.  :smiley:
Kev, if you are holding back to 6500, you are missing out on what the Lario head is capable of. Just MHO. <shrug>
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Bonafide Bob

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #101 on: August 02, 2016, 06:46:16 PM »
 Yes, they were.
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Offline Bonafide Bob

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #102 on: August 02, 2016, 06:51:11 PM »
 Yes, back in the day.
 
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pete roper

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2016, 06:59:21 PM »
Yes Pete, I agree with your assessment w/o major re-working. I'm not certain anyone here that has tweaked a thing or two has been so rude as to say everyone left stock has a smaller pe%^s. Why all the dismissal of someone who decides to pull a couple extra ponies? It's not done at anyone's expense from what I'm reading. Your own insecurities are rearing their head. Yes... a stock bike is just as capable. Now put it back in your pants.  :shocked:

I can assure you I have no 'insecurities' WRT to engine performance. If people want to spend vast amounts of wonga on miracle tuning bits? Fine, it worries me not a jot! All I'm trying to point out is that a lot of it is Bollox and snake oil.

Despite what people like to insinuate I am not a 'Keep it stock at all costs' advocate. One look at my beater Griso will tell you that! But I do encourage people to spend their money wisely and not to expect engine miracles for pennies!

The simple fact is a bike like a V7 is never going to be a rocket ship, no matter what you do to it. I am a great fan of 'Underpowered' light and middleweights. My 'Touring' bike is a Mana for heavens sakes! What I do encourage people to do is improve the things that need improving rather than just chasing the bragging rights of 'More Power'. The V7's are woefully suspended! You will get far more 'Bang for your buck' by investing in that rather than quixotically tilting at the windmill of more power out of a basic engine design that is limited by manufacturing costs and the laws of physics.

YOMV

Offline Bonafide Bob

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2016, 07:11:58 PM »
Anson "Campy" Holly, got to be ranked in the top ten flat trackers in his day and went on the hold a National Record for drag racing.  Was he as fast as Mann, maybe on a good day.
  As for as H.P being needed in racing, watch Smith motor by other riders on the straightaways on mile tracks.
  I made a statement my old racing buddies used, nothing more. I don't want to turn this into a toxic thread like what happens to some.
 Bob
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oldbike54

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #105 on: August 02, 2016, 08:54:19 PM »
Anson "Campy" Holly, got to be ranked in the top ten flat trackers in his day and went on the hold a National Record for drag racing.  Was he as fast as Mann, maybe on a good day.
  As for as H.P being needed in racing, watch Smith motor by other riders on the straightaways on mile tracks.
  I made a statement my old racing buddies used, nothing more. I don't want to turn this into a toxic thread like what happens to some.
 Bob

 Certainly the WR and KR HD's that Campy raced could have used some more power . Not much available info on your friend , any chance you might give us a bio ? Was the twin engined Triumph T/F bike that shows up in a search his? Looks like he might have been an interesting person to know .

 Dusty

Offline Bonafide Bob

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #106 on: August 02, 2016, 09:02:29 PM »
His drag bike was a twin engine Harley, if memory serves me right the motors were side by side but slightly staggered.
  Last I heard he was building race motors for dirt track cars here in Louisiana.
   
   Bob
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Offline Bonafide Bob

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2016, 12:11:17 AM »
Was Bobby Winters related to Leroy Winters?
We have freedom of speech, as long as we don't say to much.

oldbike54

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2016, 12:14:14 AM »
Was Bobby Winters related to Leroy Winters?

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 Dusty

Offline Trevor G

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Some More Lario Info
« Reply #109 on: August 03, 2016, 02:05:25 AM »
Truth is, you *think* you know better.

You could know better, too.

It doesn't take a college education, nor does it take factory training.

If you had a V65/Lario manual, which gives the valve spring pressures for both models you would see:

1) The Lario valve springs individually have a much higher seating and fully open pressure compared to the V65, even though each valve in the 4 valve head is lighter than the valves in the 2 valve head.

2) The  higher spring rates, especially when multiplied by 2, are the most likely reason for the camshaft wear

3) The higher spring rates, along with the better breathing head, allow the engine to rev much higher than one would expect

4) The excessively high closing pressure on the valve probably played the biggest part in stretching the valves past their breaking point. 

I wrote about this in this forum in 2009, I think, after doing some research and tracking down people who worked on them in their era. The most reasonable results and theories came from Mario of Thunderbikes in WA (Australia). He raced a Lario without blowing it up after fitting Suzuki GN250 valve springs.  He had forgotten most of the details of his conversions which he performed on numerous Larios and on the 4 V75 four valvers which the WA importers brought in.  However, he did find the spring pressures he had set and gave me the figures.

I managed to find and contact one of the owners of those V75s on the AIGOR list, who said that the conversion was not fool proof, since his had finally failed at a reasonably high mileage.  However, when I spoke with him in the mid to late 2000s he still had the bike and had put at least 225,000 km on it. He kept it going by replacing the valves every 60,000km, just to be on the safe side. 


 
Quote
:cheesy: :boozing: I know of no high mileage 4 valve Larios. None. Nada. Zip. The highest mileage one I know of is 17K miles. He's owned it from new, and says he has religiously observed a 7000 rpm limit.

Aussie riders tend to ride their bikes much more than their US counterparts. I believe that there were also more Larios sold in Aus than in Usa, hence the higher chance of getting reliable information from Australian sources.  Unfortunately it is now hard to find original owners there, but I am sure they exist.

My first Lario had 58,000 unblown km on it when I sold it last year.  It had a strange-ish dual valve spring conversion with one of the springs having a progressive rate, which might have been a factory mod.  I did not pull the heads.

My second Lario, which prompted me to investigate and try the Suzuki GN250 spring conversion, had blown up (one side) after the owner took it for a ride and hit what he called "a power band" at 5200rpm.  After finding ridiculously soft, progressive rate valve springs had been fitted, which looked like one half of the "kit" which had been installed on my unblown Lario, I can understand why it would have valve-bounced at 5200 rpm.  The PO told me that he never rode it over 5200, or even near that figure normally, but he had made that mistake on a little test ride near his home..

We rebuilt that engine and sold the Lario running but untested at road speed, last year.  It had done over 68,000km - the speedo was no longer working, though.

If we all could only rely on first-hand, personal experience, there would be no male gynaecologists, would there.  ;-)

Offline Trevor G

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #110 on: August 03, 2016, 02:15:06 AM »
I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)

Pete

Well, I guess you won't believe dyno results, then?

Ed's 850 conversion, using 85mm pistons from a big block engine (I believe), along with some porting, lifts the rear wheel HP from 36 on a stock Nevada or Breva, to 48.

At least, that's what's on the genuine-looking dyno run sheet that came with the bike.

One possible problem with adding neddies in this way is that it is not easy to change the gearing to suit.  Lario primaries would be nice.

The cost of all this work is several hundred dollars, though.  ;-)

pete roper

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #111 on: August 03, 2016, 07:00:45 AM »
And that's just drop in Pistons from a completely different engine using a hemispherical combustion chamber and 90-ish degree included valve angle with a substantial dome. And this into a heron head engine with no refference to deck height?

No. I don't 'Believe it'!

Habeus Corpus! Bring me the body!

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Nearly stock V7R and "GuzziTech" V7R comparo
« Reply #112 on: August 03, 2016, 08:25:37 AM »
Well, I guess you won't believe dyno results, then?

Ed's 850 conversion, using 85mm pistons from a big block engine (I believe), along with some porting, lifts the rear wheel HP from 36 on a stock Nevada or Breva, to 48.

At least, that's what's on the genuine-looking dyno run sheet that came with the bike.

One possible problem with adding neddies in this way is that it is not easy to change the gearing to suit.  Lario primaries would be nice.

The cost of all this work is several hundred dollars, though.  ;-)

Ed took my Lario from 38rw to 45rw with no piston change but lots of head work (comp/bigger valves/revised cam) and 36 carbs. Gearing was changed to V65 primary/Lightened rods/flywheel.
 I still have my stock Lario next to it with GN250 springs. WAY different beasts. To answer Chuck's question why only to 6500 rpm?  Happy zone rush now starts at 4K so no extra pop up there. Power band is extremely even and unending. Biggest takeaway from this experiment is not about hp (outright speed) changes but character changes. I'm not a speed nut and don't bother to crave that need. A little throttle gets you a lot more rush in this case.  It feels more massive without having the mass.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 08:40:46 AM by kevdog3019 »
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