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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Daniel Kalal on March 23, 2019, 04:50:46 PM

Title: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Daniel Kalal on March 23, 2019, 04:50:46 PM
there would have once been a time when these same skies would have had multiple B-29s in the pattern every day of the week (considering that nearly half of all B-29s first flew from here), but these days, hearing four 3350's is enough to send a person out the door to look up. 

...taken from my house
(http://www.dankalal.net/wildguzzi/B29pattern.JPG)

Incidentally, a Beech starship would also send me out the door pretty much every time, but that's only because that airplane had such a distinctive bad sound that you'd swear something was really going wrong with it.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 23, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
 :thumb:
GliderJohn
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Motormike on March 23, 2019, 06:06:16 PM
Is that FIFI? I thought that it was the only B-29 still airworthy, unless another one has been restored I'm not aware of.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: oldbike54 on March 23, 2019, 06:09:55 PM
 :thumb:

 Dusty
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 23, 2019, 06:55:21 PM
There's two now - FiFi and Doc.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 23, 2019, 09:41:45 PM
Google the B-29 "DOC" for it's history and restoration that was done here in Wichita. Some of the volunteers during the restoration had helped build that exact plane during the war at the Boeing plant in Wichita. Took 15 years to restore.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: kingoffleece on March 24, 2019, 06:08:26 AM
The sound of a war bird in flight is one of life's great pleasures
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gusable on March 24, 2019, 08:00:47 AM
I work at a car dealership in downtown Dallas right by love field airport the other day I went outside to get a car and a B 25 Mitchell was leaving. Radials man!!! Nothing like em
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Rough Edge racing on March 24, 2019, 08:44:18 AM
 I have quite a warbird library here and have read extensively about the B-29.. Certainly the most complex aircraft of WW2, it had a long troubled development with a cost that exceeded the Manhattan nuclear project..The 29 was going to carry the A bomb to Germany if all of Euroope fell to the Germans... General Lemay's book Superfortress is a must read to get the scope of B-29 operations over Japan...
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Guzzistajohn on March 24, 2019, 09:42:56 AM
cool stuff, I got to see Doc @ the SGF windport a couple of years ago
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: pebra on March 24, 2019, 10:46:09 AM
Daniel, can you hear what sort of plane is flying over?
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2019, 11:26:03 AM
Daniel, can you hear what sort of plane is flying over?

I'm not Daniel, but sure he can..  :smiley: aircraft engines/props have their unique sounds, just like motorcycle and hi po car engines.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Daniel Kalal on March 24, 2019, 11:27:14 AM
Daniel, can you hear what sort of plane is flying over?

In a broad general sense, yes.  Much the way you can tell a Ducati from a Guzzi by their sound even though they're both 90 degree V-twins, you can tell airplanes--particularly business jets, which have a wider range of engine-types than airliner engines.  A Pratt PT6 and a Garrett TPE are both turbines, but they sound altogether different from each other.  And, it'd be hard to miss hearing a Cessna 500 (Pratt JT15) from a Lear 23 (GE turbojet).  Wichita (being Wichita) gets a wide range of types coming in.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Murray on March 24, 2019, 12:22:25 PM
I did get to the point I could pick the difference between the rolls royce allisons as fitted to a H and E model C-130 and the ones fitted to a P3 Orion , well not the engines but the prop design is different. The difference between the TF30 P3C/ P30 and the TF30 -107 however I doubt I could do it now partly because there are no TF30's in the air anymore, they did thier level best to retire early even when operational. The H and E's have been replaced with J's the prop design is competely different and I think they've just retired the last of the P3C's/ AP3C's with P8's. Like anything hang around long enough and you'll pick up the differences.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: twowings on March 24, 2019, 12:31:51 PM
Those guys did some REAL flying back then... :bow:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 24, 2019, 12:39:37 PM
IMHO I think WWII aircraft as a whole had to to be the most demanding to fly of any era of aircraft. Many complicated systems. With single engine fighters you had the P-factor to deal with. Reliability was always a concern, especially with the bombers. Complicated navigation. Compressability with some of the fighters. Took a fairly big pair to fly them, especially in combat.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: twowings on March 24, 2019, 12:43:51 PM
Not to mention riding for hours in freezing temps, cramped interiors, and incredible noise with little more than woolen underwear and leather jackets and courage...  :bow:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: pebra on March 24, 2019, 03:46:42 PM
In a broad general sense, yes.  Much the way you can tell a Ducati from a Guzzi by their sound even though they're both 90 degree V-twins, you can tell airplanes--particularly business jets, which have a wider range of engine-types than airliner engines.  A Pratt PT6 and a Garrett TPE are both turbines, but they sound altogether different from each other.  And, it'd be hard to miss hearing a Cessna 500 (Pratt JT15) from a Lear 23 (GE turbojet).  Wichita (being Wichita) gets a wide range of types coming in.
I did get to the point I could pick the difference between the rolls royce allisons as fitted to a H and E model C-130 and the ones fitted to a P3 Orion , well not the engines but the prop design is different. The difference between the TF30 P3C/ P30 and the TF30 -107 however I doubt I could do it now partly because there are no TF30's in the air anymore, they did thier level best to retire early even when operational. The H and E's have been replaced with J's the prop design is competely different and I think they've just retired the last of the P3C's/ AP3C's with P8's. Like anything hang around long enough and you'll pick up the differences.

Amazing.
I'd think weather, angle, engine speed (revs) etc would make that extremely difficult. As I understand it, propeller design makes the difference?
Well, I listen to recorded birdsongs to distinguish some of them, so I can picture you guys listening to recorded planesounds.......
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2019, 04:51:57 PM
Amazing.
I'd think weather, angle, engine speed (revs) etc would make that extremely difficult. As I understand it, propeller design makes the difference?
Well, I listen to recorded birdsongs to distinguish some of them, so I can picture you guys listening to recorded planesounds.......

I've been going to Oshkosh, and Rockford (!) before that. 45 years of listening to airplane noise. :) They can be pretty distinctive.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2019, 04:54:31 PM
Quote
they did thier level best to retire early even when operational.

So did I.. :evil: :grin:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Murray on March 24, 2019, 05:36:18 PM
Amazing.
I'd think weather, angle, engine speed (revs) etc would make that extremely difficult. As I understand it, propeller design makes the difference?
Well, I listen to recorded birdsongs to distinguish some of them, so I can picture you guys listening to recorded planesounds.......

More I lived on base I worked on base you get to hear them at on and off for around 12 hours a day minium, yes the prop makes a difference. The Orion has rounded ends the Herc has squared off ends its probablly the most effective place to have a design difference for a prop to make a dfferent sound.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: jbell on March 26, 2019, 10:05:38 AM
Yep, I get to hear and see "Devil Dog", a B-25, fly over fairly often to the local airport about a mile from my house.  Very cool even if it is a Marine plane.   :evil:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Stormtruck2 on March 26, 2019, 08:14:05 PM
I've been going to Oshkosh, and Rockford (!) before that. 45 years of listening to airplane noise. :) They can be pretty distinctive.

Born in Rockford, and remember going to the Rockford Fly In for years.  Even after we moved to Iowa.

Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 26, 2019, 08:17:54 PM
Good to see that you still exist Stormtruck2. Hadn't noticed a post from you in many a moon.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Ncdan on March 26, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
I have a fear of flying and will not ever fly in a  commercial jet however I would not think twice about getting on that airplane! I would feel secure in those four prop motors.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: twowings on March 26, 2019, 08:50:42 PM
I know what you mean...I felt much safer in a 1929 New Standard biplane than I EVER did flying Southwest... :violent1:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2019, 08:18:01 AM
I have a fear of flying and will not ever fly in a  commercial jet however I would not think twice about getting on that airplane! I would feel secure in those four prop motors.

A friend of mine used to drive Super Connies. He said it wasn't unusual at all to land with one (or more) not running..  :smiley:
Jet engines are extremely simple machines in comparison.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2019, 08:19:19 AM
Good to see that you still exist Stormtruck2. Hadn't noticed a post from you in many a moon.
GliderJohn

Me, too. I have wondered if you had driven off the face of the earth.  :grin:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 27, 2019, 08:37:19 AM
From Chuck:
Quote
Jet engines are extremely simple machines in comparison.
The engine itself is but when installed it looks like it is on life support from all the damn plumbing that surrounds and/or attached to the engine.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2019, 07:45:50 PM
From Chuck:The engine itself is but when installed it looks like it is on life support from all the damn plumbing that surrounds and/or attached to the engine.
GliderJohn

True, but it's just plumbing. <shrug> They smell bad, too..  :smiley:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: twowings on March 27, 2019, 08:02:56 PM
Jet engines are the work of the devil!   :violent1:
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: John A on March 28, 2019, 10:29:27 AM
Jet engines are the work of the devil!   :violent1:


True statement.  When you take them apart there is not much interesting, unless you get into the geartrain.  A compound supercharger on a 28 cylinder corncob, now that gets interesting
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: ohiorider on March 28, 2019, 12:38:02 PM

True statement.  When you take them apart there is not much interesting, unless you get into the geartrain.  A compound supercharger on a 28 cylinder corncob, now that gets interesting
Quite an engine.  Took this pic at an air museum near Phoenix (CAF.) Imagine being assigned to do a spark plug change on a Consolidated B-36.


(https://i.ibb.co/3syymR8/05-Pratt-Whitney-R4360.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3syymR8)

upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: oldbike54 on March 28, 2019, 06:09:49 PM
 The Piaggio P180 is the most unique sounding aircraft I've ever heard , was told it was because it is a pusher , and maybe that is part of it , but having heard other pushers , the P180 still sound different .

 Dusty
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 28, 2019, 06:26:09 PM
Pushers definitely sound "different."
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Tusayan on March 28, 2019, 06:30:28 PM
The Piaggio P180 is the most unique sounding aircraft I've ever heard , was told it was because it is a pusher , and maybe that is part of it , but having heard other pushers , the P180 still sound different.

The Piaggio P.166 is an older design that doesn’t have a tremendous amount in common with the Avanti except for wing mounted turboprop engines and pusher propellers, and it makes a very similar sound. So it must be something that arises from that particular configuration.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 28, 2019, 06:46:17 PM
I've flown this Variviggen.   Strange airplane, although it flies sort of normally.  :smiley:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgbGpulUJdU
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 28, 2019, 07:47:50 PM
The Starship was another pusher and had a very distinctive sound.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 28, 2019, 07:50:49 PM
The Starship was another pusher and had a very distinctive sound.
GliderJohn

Yeah, a local guy flew one for a while. He liked it.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Daniel Kalal on March 28, 2019, 07:56:54 PM
Yeah, a local guy flew one for a while. He liked it.

Cessna ran an ad shortly after the Starship came out showing that you could actually operate a Citation (business jet) cheaper than the Starship and have a host of other advantages.  Beech knew the writing was on the wall before they delivered the first one.  But, it sure was a stunningly different looking airplane.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: kingoffleece on March 28, 2019, 07:58:24 PM
Interesting article on Titanium and it's use in, among other things, supercharged B-29 engines in CycleWorld by Kevin Camaron.
He went on to say that if there was a backfire into the supercharger the Ti would ignite leaving the crew between 30 and 60 seconds to exit the plane prior to wing collapse.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: John Croucher on March 28, 2019, 09:13:55 PM
Thunder Over Louisville 2019
Saturday April 13

In The Air
Welcome to Thunder Over Louisville, featuring one of the nation’s top air shows and one of the largest annual fireworks shows in the country!

As the official Kentucky Derby Festival Opening Ceremonies, Thunder kicks-off the 2019 Festival.  After dark, prepare for the Thunder as the 30th annual pyrotechnic spectacular explodes to a sensational soundtrack in front of hundreds of thousands of our friends that come in from all across the country.
2019 Thunder Over Louisville Airshow Performers:

A-10: 163 Fighter Squadron, Indiana Air National Guard

Acemaker T-33: Greg Coyler

AH-1/UH-1: HMLA 773 Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron

B-52: 2nd Bomb Wing Barksdale U.S. Air Force Base, Louisiana

Billy Werth: Pitts

C-17: 445th Airlift Wing, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio

C-17: 157th Airlift Wing, Shepherd Field Air National Guard Base, West Virginia

CH-53: HM-14 Norfolk Naval Station, Virginia

C-130J: 39AS Dyess Air Force Base, Texas

CT-142: 402 Squadron Winnipeg, Royal Canadian Air Force

C-130H: 123rd Airlift Wing, Kentucky Air National Guard, Louisville

CF-18: 401 Tactical Fighter Squadron Cold Lake, Royal Canadian Air Force

CT-155: 419 Squadron Cold Lake, Royal Canadian Air Force

F/A-18: VFA-106 Super Hornet Tac Demo, U.S. Navy

F-15C: 159th Fighter Wing Louisiana Air National Guard

F-16: 482 Fighter Wing, Homestead Air Reserve Base, Florida

F-16: 180th Fighter Wing Toledo Air National Guard, Ohio

HC-130: Patrick Air Force Base, Florida

KC-135: 161st Air Refueling Wing, Arizona Air National Guard

KC Flight: RV-4 Color Smoke trails

Lee Leet: Super Tucano

Matt Younkin: Twin Beech

MH-60R: HSM-40 military base, Florida

Swampfox P-51 Mustang

T-6: 71st Flying Training Wing Vance Air Force Base, Oklahoma

T-38: 80th Flying Training Wing (Euro- NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training Program) Sheppard Air Force Base, Texas

Trojan Thunder: T-28

United States Army Parachute Team (U.S. Army Golden Knights)

UPS -747-8

U.S. Navy Legacy Flight

PLEASE NOTE: Aircraft performances subject to change on show day.
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: John A on March 30, 2019, 09:21:55 AM
https://youtu.be/_t3akMEm9bI
This is a video of the engines being built, kind of heartbreaking that it was all scrapped
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 30, 2019, 03:46:33 PM
https://youtu.be/_t3akMEm9bI
This is a video of the engines being built, kind of heartbreaking that it was all scrapped

Thanks for that!  :thumb: I sometimes wonder if we would be *capable* of doing that again..
Title: Re: B-29 pattern work [not a Guzzi]
Post by: Murray on March 30, 2019, 04:40:37 PM
Thanks for that!  :thumb: I sometimes wonder if we would be *capable* of doing that again..

Considerin RR for thier trent engines "grow" thier high speed turbine blade simlar to a crystal so the structure is optimised at a molecular level, I'd say yes it could be done, why you would do it on the other hand is a whole different question a turbo prop as fitted to things like the C130 is more reliable a lot lighter and makes more power. I'm sure i've mentioned it before but aircraft stuff has a fatigue life you can endlessly rebuild it, the second law of thermodynamics catches up with everything eventually.