Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: randy yocum on May 13, 2019, 09:34:27 AM
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Hot summer is coming,I have a question ,when the weather is hot and I'm driving my air cooled Moto Guzzi in stop and go traffic ,when I get stuck in a long line of cars waiting for the light to change. I have several choices at this point,what I like to do is leave the bike in first gear and kill the engine with the kill switch,when the light turns green simply pull clutch lever push start button and drive away.I feel it gives the engine a chance to cool for a few seconds before we(me and the bike) drive on further and come to the next light and begin the process over.
So my question is during extremely hot weather is it better to leave the engine running in neutral while I wait for the light to change ,or is shutting it off and restarting, which may be best for the engine?
I'm not an engineer but I can think of a couple possible down sides to constantly starting and restarting ,1 )wear and tear on the starter motor, 2)is there enough engine oil in circulation between startups to keep those vital engine components from being destroyed unnecessarily.
I curious to know the pros and cons and what other guys do in this everyday situation.
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Take a parallel road that doesn't have traffic. :thumb:
I would rather be riding than sitting so I avoid traffic as much as humanly possible. You'd be surprised how little traffic there is on the parallel roads. Then, if I have to hit a store, or go over a bridge, I pop out on the main road at the last minute.
If I have to cross interstates I find a road that doesn't have access to the interstate and therefore has very little traffic.
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We have a really tough one here, where you didn't know you were in trouble until you took the exit.
It's an exit off an urban expressway that empties onto a six-lane surface street. IF the traffic is bad, you are sitting in a line of traffic a quarter of a mile long, moving at one or two miles per hour, and it's all UPHILL. It doesn't "stop and go", it moves at a constant slow walking pace.
You can't just sit and stop and go to neutral or cut the bike off and wait for a big gap to open, then restart, close the gap, and sit again, or you'll have a road-rage incident on your hands from the impatient idiots behind you. So you have to slip the clutch, weave, go forward in little 10 foot hops, or whatever; 5 or 10 minutes of that in 90+ heat is the hardest thing in the world on an air-cooled bike.
There's ways to avoid it, but if there's NO traffic on the exit, then the alternate adds a for-sure 5 or 10 minutes to the commute. So you take a chance and cuss if you're wrong ... !
Lannis
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More than once I got stuck in Hotlanta traffic, eventually decided to shut down the motor while waiting, and had a LOT of trouble restarting because the motor was so hot. So I got in the habit of shutting down sooner to reduce the heat buildup.
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Let's go from the superstitious to reality:
Is there any Guzzi owner on this forum who has ever had, or has even heard of any Guzzi owner who has ever had, the engine on their Moto Guzzi seize up while idling in heavy traffic ? Speak up, please.
I believe the Guzzi Griso has an electric electric fan on its oil cooler which definitely argues for leaving the motor idling in heavy traffic.
My vote goes for leaving the engine idle for up to 5 minutes before cutting the ignition.
'Geezer
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More than once I got stuck in Hotlanta traffic, eventually decided to shut down the motor while waiting, and had a LOT of trouble restarting because the motor was so hot. So I got in the habit of shutting down sooner to reduce the heat buildup.
There should be no expectation that a Guzzi will start when you need it to start!
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Take a parallel road that doesn't have traffic. :thumb:
I would rather be riding than sitting so I avoid traffic as much as humanly possible. You'd be surprised how little traffic there is on the parallel roads. Then, if I have to hit a store, or go over a bridge, I pop out on the main road at the last minute.
If I have to cross interstates I find a road that doesn't have access to the interstate and therefore has very little traffic.
How does this add to the conversation ? LOL .
Dusty
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Here in hot humid SW Florida I shut down my air colled bikes when in long traffic delays.
If it's not running it's not generating more heat. Make sense??
Paul
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How does this add to the conversation ? LOL .
Dusty
Anyone can say, "I shut the bike off". "I leave it running". I say avoid the situation or get out of it instead of plodding along. Its called thinking outside the box. Don't accept the norms.
It shows that there are alternatives. Unless you can split lanes, never take the bike if you are in a hurry. There is almost always a way out which is why I avoid interstates unless I am willing to ride the shoulder to the next exit.
If I get caught in traffic I look at my GPS and take the next right or left and get away from the traffic. Plan your routes accordingly to avoid traffic. Use Google maps on your smart phone attached to the handlebars and have "show traffic" turned on.
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Obviously there's no clear answer because at SOME POINT sitting and idling in hot ambients you're going to get a point that is too hot. Reference there's at least one story that has been told on here of a Guzzi burning after a fuel line finally melted when IIRC someone started it and let it idle in the driveway and then walked away.
Now I think that's not likely going to happen with someone sitting on it cause you're gonna cry uncle way before it gets THAT hot.
Generally speaking I do not shut it down for traffic lights, or even a little stop and go traffic.
Here are some Anecdotes of my experiences with that over the years:
* Dover Downs, ridiculous stop and go traffic for a NASCAR race in the 1990's - me on a Harley, ambient temps in the 90s, the damn thing got so hot it started to obviously knock at times. I did shut it down for a while, then I rode the shoulder after a while more.
* Jersey Shore, stop and go traffic for miles and miles, Jenn on an R65, me on a Jackal - probably stop and go for an hour, mostly idled, shut it down once or twice, then eventual said SCREW IT and ran the shoulder for miles.
* NYC/Staten Island, stop and go traffic for miles and miles, Jenn on an 883, me on a Jackal - probably stop and go for an hour, mostly idled, shut it down once or twice.
* Philly Sure-Kill Expwy (Schuylkill Expy - I76 through Philly) - stop and go traffic for miles and miles, gonna be there a while, ambients in the 90s, me on a then NEW EFI Harley (that I shortly later learned the morons at the factory had built and shipped without intake manifold bolts). Anyway, oil bag temps got as high as 300F (I've never seen that before or since). I mostly idled it, might have shut it down once or twice in the 40 minutes or so I was stuck.
Last summer - I8I North in southern VA, ambient temps in the 90s, accident, all lanes stop and go (like people walking around on the highway stop and go). Me on a Police RK - decided people less likely to bitch at Police bike - hit the 4-ways and ran the shoulder for miles, merged right at the point where the VA state troopers were waving everyone over onto the shoulder to bypass the carnage. Lots of friendly waves from other motorists. Never shut it down especially since I didn't sit for more than a minute or two before deciding on the course of action.
On all the above I definitely have shut down now or again say at a long construction zone wait in hot ambients.
YMMV
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Never had it sieze but have had the bike so hot it lost just about all power, was complete bitch to drive and if it stalled dammed difficult to start this is on an LM-1000
My procedure is if it's a short wait at the lights I'll let it idle but if it's a prolonged stop, roadwork traffic lights, train crossing, traffic jam, then I switch off.
If it's one of these rolling really slow jams I look for the first place to pull over switch off and take a break.
It's frequently not possible to avoid gnarled up traffic at times, well not in the UK and I'm in Jockland which is virtually uninhabited compared to the rest of the country
John
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Here in hot humid SW Florida I shut down my air colled bikes when in long traffic delays.
If it's not running it's not generating more heat. Make sense??
Paul
Tis true, and I won't pretend I understand the thermodynamics.
However, oil circulation helps spread the heat around when it is running, this is even better on models with an oil cooler radiator or remote sump and an engineer once explained to me that "heat soak" occurs when you shut down an air-cooled motor. Meaning the heat from the combustion chamber (that is now no longer going out the exhaust) will spread and more parts of the engine will get hotter before they cool.
As such, shutting down might not make much of a difference, especially if it's for a short period.
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Anyone can say, "I shut the bike off". "I leave it running". I say avoid the situation or get out of it instead of plodding along. Its called thinking outside the box. Don't accept the norms.
It shows that there are alternatives. Unless you can split lanes, never take the bike if you are in a hurry. There is almost always a way out which is why I avoid interstates unless I am willing to ride the shoulder to the next exit.
If I get caught in traffic I look at my GPS and take the next right or left and get away from the traffic. Plan your routes accordingly to avoid traffic. Use Google maps on your smart phone attached to the handlebars and have "show traffic" turned on.
Trust me on this , Randy is an experienced rider who already knows how to "think outside of the box" , kinda like the guy who suggested losing 20 lbs of fat is a better solution than drilling your motorbike full of holes was thinking outside of the box . LOL .
Dusty
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Think I mentioned to Kev I got caught on the Philly "Sure-Kill Expwy (Schuylkill Expy - I76 through Philly)" recently. Me on my '71 Ambo leading the new owner of my V7 Special out of NJ and into eastern PA. Miles of slipping the clutch and stop and go traffic did not make the old Ambo very happy. To make things worse, on my solo return home my alternate route (another highway) was equally as jammed. So, I found myself going back east on the Schuylkill AGAIN! That stretch of road is hell on earth. Never again, especially on a 48 year old drum-braked bike.
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Well I agree with most everyone here. Take alternate routes when possible, sit in neutral with engine running for short stops, shut'er off for long ones, like a train.
One time I had to meet a friend who lives west of town, I live on the east side so maybe twenty mile drive. Had to get some stuff in town so instead of bypassing it altogether, went downtown to get a tool, which they didn't have in stock, then went to a gas station that normally has premium gas, most here don't, and they were out. So left and took the old four lane instead of the expressway across town and there was a construction delay. Now at that point I should have turned around and went back to the expressway, or just gone home, but how long could it take? Traffic wasn't bad for mid afternoon, so waited, as traffic creeped along, maybe fifty feet at a time. When I finally got closer, I could see they were working on the traffic lights. For some reason, they were stopping all traffic, then letting just a few cars at a time through. So just kept it running, but in neutral most of the time. Sometimes it was hard to get into gear, maybe the clutch got hot from slipping it to go so slow? Anyways, it took 15-20 minutes to go maybe a quarter mile. Not a big deal but frustrating when you live in Alaska!
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If it is truly just a few minutes idling, followed by some air flow, like stop and go traffic, I don't shut it off. I think these engine shed more heat than we give them credit for, just by convection caused by the hot air rising off the cylinders and engine, thereby drawing cooling air upwards. Also, you aren't burning much fuel at idle, so not much heat is being generated compared to running 70 mph down the freeway.
But if its a dead stop for a long time, like RR crossing, I'll shut it off. And I'm certainly willing to run illegally on the shoulders if need be. I got stopped by a cop for doing this one time, and he was quite reasonable when I pointed out that this is an air-cooled engine. Just go real slow on the shoulder.
What irritates me is that there has to be lots of genuine data associated with this issue. It would be stupid simple to instrument a bike and test what happens, where the hot spots are, how hot is too hot, etc. I'm sure the manufacturers do that, but I've never seen objective data on this.
I'm also not aware of warnings in manuals that give specific instructions about what to do in heavy traffic. I suspect this means that it's not nearly as big a problem as most people think.
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Isn't shutting off the engine with the kill switch and leaving the ignition switch on detrimental to the ignition system?
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Isn't shutting off the engine with the kill switch and leaving the ignition switch on detrimental to the ignition system?
On the older bikes (talking pre ECU) with no mods YES.
If a modern ignition system has been retrofitted PERHAPS (depends on the system)
On a bike with an ECU probably NO
Just from what I know of the motorcycles I've owned
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This has come up many times on airhead forums and been discussed pretty thoroughly. Some of the guys had head temp gauges and oil temp gauges installed. You might want to check out some of those discussions as I can't imagine the Guzzis being much different.
I don't recall any specifics, but I'm certainly not concerned about overheating in five minutes of idling. Much longer than that in 90F and above temps I'll turn it off.
Here's an interesting data point: I rode a 1977 R100S home to Oregon from VA. It had one of those oil temp dipsticks that read in Centigrade, so I was constantly converting mentally to F. I don't recall the temp it ran on the highway, but the interesting thing was that as soon as I exited and putted around town, the temp came up. My logic would have told me the temp would drop since it wasn't generating as much heat around town. My conclusion was that a lot of hot parts, now at the slower speeds, heated up the oil much more and weren't cooling down very quickly.
So add that into the calculations as well. If you're traveling along pretty briskly and then suddenly stopped or slowed, expect higher temps than if you'd been putting along just before.
I think shutting down with the kill switch leaves the lights on. Not a good idea with the older bikes and their marginal charging systems.
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This has come up many times on airhead forums and been discussed pretty thoroughly. Some of the guys had head temp gauges and oil temp gauges installed. You might want to check out some of those discussions as I can't imagine the Guzzis being much different.
I don't recall any specifics, but I'm certainly not concerned about overheating in five minutes of idling. Much longer than that in 90F and above temps I'll turn it off.
Here's an interesting data point: I rode a 1977 R100S home to Oregon from VA. It had one of those oil temp dipsticks that read in Centigrade, so I was constantly converting mentally to F. I don't recall the temp it ran on the highway, but the interesting thing was that as soon as I exited and putted around town, the temp came up. My logic would have told me the temp would drop since it wasn't generating as much heat around town. My conclusion was that a lot of hot parts, now at the slower speeds, heated up the oil much more and weren't cooling down very quickly.
So add that into the calculations as well. If you're traveling along pretty briskly and then suddenly stopped or slowed, expect higher temps than if you'd been putting along just before.
I think shutting down with the kill switch leaves the lights on. Not a good idea with the older bikes and their marginal charging systems.
Yea, you’re not getting the air flow at slow speeds.
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Those are very interesting points thanks ,I believe that most modern motorcycles however, the headlights (the biggest current zapper)don't come on until the engine starts.I know that's how it works on my Stelvio and Norge.
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The Griso doesn't have a fan on the O.C. the 1400's do, but at some point you do have to shut them down as even the fans won't keep ahead of the heat at idle.
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Trust me on this , Randy is an experienced rider who already knows how to "think outside of the box" , kinda like the guy who suggested losing 20 lbs of fat is a better solution than drilling your motorbike full of holes was thinking outside of the box . LOL .
Dusty
That's fine Dusty. And as a moderator you should be moderating your posts and not provoking. :thumb: Thank you.
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That's fine Dusty. And as a moderator you should be moderating your posts and not provoking. :thumb: Thank you.
If you are going to dish it out you must be willing to take it in return .
Dusty
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If you are going to dish it out you must be willing to take it in return .
Dusty
Except that one of us has the power to ban. Who decides when you step over the line? :copcar:
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Except that one of us has the power to ban. Who decides when you step over the line? :copcar:
This has to be tongue in cheek! It's like daring the cop to arrest you.
I'll bet you drove your parents crazy! :grin:
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I'll bet you drove your parents crazy! :grin:
I sure did! :angel:
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I let my California Special idle in the driveway for 45 minutes once. No problems.
-AJ
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I let my California Special idle in the driveway for 45 minutes once. No problems.
-AJ
Yeah , we recently had a case where a board member left his V7 idling in his garage for about that same duration :shocked: :laugh:
Dusty
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A theoretic here: pilots of air cooled airplanes will sometimes enrichen the mixture for the cooling effect of more fuel - should we consider adding a bit of choke in slow moving hot conditions? :huh:
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It's a judgement call whether I shut down or let it idle during a long stop, but I'm on an Automatic, so the considerations are a little different. But in general I would agree that the typical Guzzi engine should not suffer during prolonged idling.
My worry is the TC fluid overheating from continuous shearing in the TC with no airflow over the cooler.
One other thing I'll mention is the danger in taking the shoulder for long distances; pissed-off driver's are a constant issue (some of them DO swing over to block you, and that's a road-rage issue where you can't prevail), but the other thing is tire-puncturing debris that collects on the un-travelled shoulder. Thruout the course of months/years, crap that shouldn't be on a paved road gets swept naturally to the shoulders, and I've picked up several nails and screws by riding the shoulders. I still do it, but I'm VERY aware of this danger now, and will stop as soon as I can and inspect the tires for anything I might've picked up.
One last thing that doesn't add anything to the OP's query: The slow-moving parade-crawl or stop-go stuff is where the Automatics RULE!
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a set of 12 volt computer fans could be mounted.
Also I would run the highest w40/w50/w60 oil that was available if I was in the south and needed to live in congestion
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Idling away!
Well I never let the bikes idle for long, maybe a couple of min. But last fall I went to the local Airheads meeting. They're the only group that has get togethers, other than the hog riding fools, and the members are not only friendly, they're mostly my age, so don't feel like the old man there. Anyway, when I got there, the only bike there was a sidecar rig and it was idling with no rider in sight. Kind of odd, but went inside, talked a bit and then asked whose bike was idling outside. Turns out the rider was afraid it wouldn't start in the cold weather, so left it running. When I left an hour or so later, it was still idling away outside. I was not only surprised it was still running, but that nobody had driven off with it. Maybe because the temperature was down near zero? But I'm sure of one thing, it didn't overheat!
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And both have the power to restrain themselves from posting.
Before everyone gets all excited here , I was merely poking fun at someone for doing exactly what they had called a different member out for doing just hours before . No one is getting banned , but if you call a member out for something , don't turn around a few hours later and do the same thing .
Dusty
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Before everyone gets all excited here , I was merely poking fun at someone for doing exactly what they had called a different member out for doing just hours before . No one is getting banned , but if you call a member out for something , don't turn around a few hours later and do the same thing .
Dusty
All in good fun Dusty. And I drove my sisters up a wall with my teasing.
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:thumb:
Dusty
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Here's a puzzler. Could Dusty ban himself?
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Here's a puzzler. Could Dusty ban himself?
Trust me , I've tried , no one wants this job :rolleyes:
Dusty