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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: frozengoose on May 23, 2019, 02:02:02 PM
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After riding the 850T between snow/rain storms, decided to take the 650 (v65sp) out. Since I'm too cheap to buy two batteries, switched it over from the T, put some air in the tires, and rolled it out of the garage to check the oil since that side of the bike was against the wall. When I unscrewed the oil cap, a plume shot out, covering the apron with a gas/oil mix. So put the plug back in, got a pan, and drained a couple more quarts of the pungent liquid. At first I thought I'd forgotten to close the petcocks last fall, but no, they were in the off position. So I guess I need new petcocks. MG sells a repro pecock that's pretty inexpensive, anyone have experience with them?
Later I talked to my mechanic neighbor and he says he always closes the petcocks on his Harley, even when he stops for just a few minutes. And in the fall he drains the gas from the tank. I always filled it up cause I thought there'd be less problems with fumes and gas degradation over the winter. Anybody have thoughts on that?
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If gas has drained past the petcocks and into the carbs and then on into the engine, I think it also means that the float bowl needle valves are letting fuel out of the float bowls and on into the engine, past the rings and down into the sump. Someone will be along shortly to correct me, I'm sure. New petcocks and maybe time to rebuild and refurbish the carbs too? Whenever I think the problem I'm having is carb related, it is usually ignition...but in this case I really do think it is the carbs and the petcocks.
For winter I always fill the tank after putting in the correct proportion of Stabil, then run the bike for 25-35 miles, retop the tank in the garage, close the petcocks and call it a day. I also used to squirt some oil into the cylinders and crank it over a few times with a rag over the spark plug hole - while this makes some blue smoke in the spring, it goes away and I go on my way. Also, instead of ethanol gas, I sometimes use 100% gas and no Stabil - that will last a lot longer than ethanol plus Stabil.
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Everything grebmrof said is correct. You need to replace the float needle valves, as well as the petcocks. I have no personal experience with the petcocks from MG cycle, but everything those guys carry is usually very good stuff.
Rick.
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Yeah, I left out that part out about the float needles. The neighbor said while they're undoubtedly worn, the bike has 40k miles, the petcocks are likely the main problem since it hadn't happened before. He said just replace the petcocks and keep'em closed when not riding. Then rebuild the carbs next winter.
Thanks for the input.
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Don't forget to change the oil. :thumb:
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I'd be rebuilding the carbs now, rather than waiting until Winter.
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I'd be rebuilding the carbs now, rather than waiting until Winter.
And that's because what exactly? The bike ran fine last fall, there was no sign of float needle problems then.
What's your opinion of the BAP petcocks. They seem to be the only ones readily available and were not highly rated on another forum.
Thanks, Jon
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The tips of your float needles could be worn out or just dried out and not sealing. If you want, you could wait and see if they seal. I would just replace them. Fairly easy and fairly cheap.
Tom
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After riding the 850T between snow/rain storms, decided to take the 650 (v65sp) out. Since I'm too cheap to buy two batteries, switched it over from the T, put some air in the tires, and rolled it out of the garage to check the oil since that side of the bike was against the wall. When I unscrewed the oil cap, a plume shot out, covering the apron with a gas/oil mix. So put the plug back in, got a pan, and drained a couple more quarts of the pungent liquid. At first I thought I'd forgotten to close the petcocks last fall, but no, they were in the off position. So I guess I need new petcocks. MG sells a repro pecock that's pretty inexpensive, anyone have experience with them?
Later I talked to my mechanic neighbor and he says he always closes the petcocks on his Harley, even when he stops for just a few minutes. And in the fall he drains the gas from the tank. I always filled it up cause I thought there'd be less problems with fumes and gas degradation over the winter. Anybody have thoughts on that?
petcocks galore: https://www.treatland.tv/new-puch-peugeot-motobecane-vespa-moped-parts-s/88.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=88&show=99&page=1&f-petcock=66
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And that's because what exactly? The bike ran fine last fall, there was no sign of float needle problems then.
What's your opinion of the BAP petcocks. They seem to be the only ones readily available and were not highly rated on another forum.
Thanks, Jon
Because the float needles and/or floats obviously aren't doing their job and riding it like that could lead to far larger issues.
I've used the BAP petcocks on a number of projects and haven't had any issues with them at all.
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petcocks galore: https://www.treatland.tv/new-puch-peugeot-motobecane-vespa-moped-parts-s/88.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=88&show=99&page=1&f-petcock=66
Checked it out and they're out of the style for the v65...M16x1 thread-horizontal feed.
Thanks, Jon
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Cheap....er frugal fix....Briggs & Stratton inline fuel shutoff. About 5 bux a piece.
Works on my bikes and my home made bench tank.
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The tips of your float needles could be worn out or just dried out and not sealing. If you want, you could wait and see if they seal. I would just replace them. Fairly easy and fairly cheap.
Because the float needles and/or floats obviously aren't doing their job and riding it like that could lead to far larger issues.
I've used the BAP petcocks on a number of projects and haven't had any issues with them at all.
Here's the link to the forum that talked about BAP petcocks. Maybe just the style for Nortons was bad?
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/bap-petcock-warning.11643/
My neighbor, who's been a mechanic for 40 years and has worked on everything from airplanes to heavy equipment, was adamant that the carbs were probably ok since it took 6-7 months to leak down. But I probably won't ride it until they're fixed. As long as the 850's running, it's NBD, just one more project on the list!
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But they aren't okay. It was proven by the crankcase being full of fuel.
Btw before you crank the engine pull the plugs and spin the engine-don't do it with the plugs still connected!
If you don't do this you risk hydrolock and bending a rod.
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But they aren't okay. It was proven by the crankcase being full of fuel.
Btw before you crank the engine pull the plugs and spin the engine-don't do it with the plugs still connected!
If you don't do this you risk hydrolock and bending a rod.
For fuel to get into the crankcase, BOTH the petcocks and the needles and seats are crying out.
If you needle valves are rooted, then there’s nothing to stop the float bowls overfilling when you’re riding.
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For fuel to get into the crankcase, BOTH the petcocks and the needles and seats are crying out.
If you needle valves are rooted, then there’s nothing to stop the float bowls overfilling when you’re riding.
But they aren't okay. It was proven by the crankcase being full of fuel.
Btw before you crank the engine pull the plugs and spin the engine-don't do it with the plugs still connected!
If you don't do this you risk hydrolock and bending a rod.
OK, I get it. Don't ride bike, bad for engine. Will fix, eventually, when the more pressing projects are done. Summers are short up here and work on stuff like that gets prioritized. But I will pull the plugs and check for gas in the cylinders. One interesting thing was that when I tried to drain the rest of the gas from the tank, nothing came out when the taps were turned on, but then about a quart drained when I turned to reserve. Shouldn't it all have drained out if the petcocks were leaking?
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Well, all the umming and arring in the world will mean nothing much, because it’s all conjecture.
You could fill the tank and put @ couple of hoses on the taps, turn them on and see what happens, but you’re gunna’ have to trace the system through anyway.
The beaut thing about these sort of dramas, is that if you work through methodically, you can SEE the problem.
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Well, all the umming and arring in the world will mean nothing much, because it’s all conjecture.
You could fill the tank and put @ couple of hoses on the taps, turn them on and see what happens, but you’re gunna’ have to trace the system through anyway.
The beaut thing about these sort of dramas, is that if you work through methodically, you can SEE the problem.
Well that's often true, sometimes when fixing things there's a eureka moment when it all becomes clear, but other times, not so much. But that's a good idea to check out the petcocks before removing them.
Thanks, Jon
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OK, I get it. Don't ride bike, bad for engine. Will fix, eventually, when the more pressing projects are done. Summers are short up here and work on stuff like that gets prioritized. But I will pull the plugs and check for gas in the cylinders. One interesting thing was that when I tried to drain the rest of the gas from the tank, nothing came out when the taps were turned on, but then about a quart drained when I turned to reserve. Shouldn't it all have drained out if the petcocks were leaking?
Even though the fuel usually exits from the same spigot on modern petcocks, Main and Reserve intake circuits on a petcock are separate circuits. It's not odd for one to work properly and the other to fail- probably more common than for both to fail at the same time. At least that's what happens when mine have died in the past. Sounds like the reserve circuit still works. That's why fuel remained after the rest of it leaked out via the main circuit and fell to/below the level of the petcock's main circuit intake stack/tube.
Check to see what's bad so you don't waste resources or short summer time, but I would also recommend not riding this bike until you have this problem sorted. Good luck.
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Even though the fuel usually exits from the same spigot on modern petcocks, Main and Reserve intake circuits on a petcock are separate circuits. It's not odd for one to work properly and the other to fail- probably more common than for both to fail at the same time. At least that's what happens when mine have died in the past. Sounds like the reserve circuit still works. That's why fuel remained after the rest of it leaked out via the main circuit and fell to/below the level of the petcock's main circuit intake stack/tube.
Check to see what's bad so you don't waste resources or short summer time, but I would also recommend not riding this bike until you have this problem sorted. Good luck.
OK, that makes sense. Thanks, Jon
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Well that's often true, sometimes when fixing things there's a eureka moment when it all becomes clear, but other times, not so much. But that's a good idea to check out the petcocks before removing them.
Thanks, Jon
Yeah it’s funny isn’t it.
Sometimes you have apparently conflicting symptoms that could have a hundred causes, but when you find the reason, EVERYTHING that you saw suddenly becomes perfectly clear.
The cause will always make sense of the symptoms..
But.
The symptoms won’t always make sense of the cause.
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Yeah it’s funny isn’t it.
Sometimes you have apparently conflicting symptoms that could have a hundred causes, but when you find the reason, EVERYTHING that you saw suddenly becomes perfectly clear.
The cause will always make sense of the symptoms..
But.
The symptoms won’t always make sense of the cause.
That's true, mechanicing in general can be kind of zen like, but don't want to go too far down that road. Never could finish reading that book. Jon
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That's true, mechanicing in general can be kind of zen like, but don't want to go too far down that road. Never could finish reading that book. Jon
Yes but if a book is written and nobody reads it..
Does that mean it does not tell a story...Grasshopper ..?
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Well I was referring to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, of course, which in IMHO is an overly long, totally over rated book. I think the grasshopper thing was from a David Carradine / Kung Fu show about Chinese Taoist Buddhist or something, I never watched that program. Zen is Japanese I think. Anyway, while it's definitely important to pay attention to what you're doing, you don't want to over think things or you'll never gett'em done. But maybe I'm over thinking this?
Getting back to the float needles, I'm not sure why my neighbor was so adamant about not rebuilding the carbs, but we talked about it for quite a bit and he didn't budge from saying that it wasn't necessary. But like I always sez, to eaches his onus
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Quote from: Huzo on Today at 01:54:16 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=101092.msg1598351#msg1598351)Yes but if a book is written and nobody reads it..
Does that mean it does not tell a story...Grasshopper ..?
That's what the pictures are for...
On my Cal III the petcock has no reserve. Just on and off with the control being in the R side cover. I gutted it and made a block off plate. Then I installed the aforementioned Briggs shutoff valve.
Good luck with your repairs!
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Quote from: Huzo on Today at 01:54:16 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=101092.msg1598351#msg1598351)Yes but if a book is written and nobody reads it..
Does that mean it does not tell a story...Grasshopper ..?
That's what the pictures are for...
On my Cal III the petcock has no reserve. Just on and off with the control being in the R side cover. I gutted it and made a block off plate. Then I installed the aforementioned Briggs shutoff valve.
Good luck with your repairs!
You got that right. Lots of times the pictures in the shop manual, or even the parts book, can be more helpful than the text. I'm still looking at petcocks, not sure which kind to use. And will replace the float needles, of course! Thanks for your comments, Jon
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I put a set of these BAP petcocks on my refreshed V50 II. They work flawlessly and are inexpensive. Curiously, they are identical to the OE petcocks fitted in 1980 - so it must have been a good, solid design, no need to change.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=682
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I put a set of these BAP petcocks on my refreshed V50 II. They work flawlessly and are inexpensive. Curiously, they are identical to the OE petcocks fitted in 1980 - so it must have been a good, solid design, no need to change.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=682
:thumb: This has been my experience a well.
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:thumb: This has been my experience a well.
I put a set of these BAP petcocks on my refreshed V50 II. They work flawlessly and are inexpensive. Curiously, they are identical to the OE petcocks fitted in 1980 - so it must have been a good, solid design, no need to change.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=682
OK, thanks, I may just order the BAP's from them, along with gaskets sets and float needles, of course! I think they're closed for the weekend, so have some more time to over think things.
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I have been doing the "long winter's nap" on bikes out in California for years. Here's what I do:
Putt to the local gas station
Put in 2 oz Stabil
Fill er up
Putt back
Close non leaking fuel shutoff :smiley:
Drain carbs
Put on center stand
Put block under engine to keep front tire off the concrete.
Put wrench on negative battery cable and unhook it.
Put my worries on the doorstep..
It's sat as long as a year this way without issue
:grin:
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I have been doing the "long winter's nap" on bikes out in California for years. Here's what I do:
Putt to the local gas station
Put in 2 oz Stabil
Fill er up
Putt back
Close non leaking fuel shutoff :smiley:
Drain carbs
Put on center stand
Put block under engine to keep front tire off the concrete.
Put wrench on negative battery cable and unhook it.
Put my worries on the doorstep..
It's sat as long as a year this way without issue
:grin:
Thanks, that sounds like a good routine. This is the first time I've had this problem and I've ridden bikes since the sixties. My usual practice was to fill'er up on the last ride, then shut the petcocks off when I got back home and let'er idle 'til it dies. Park it on the center stand and put on a battery tender. Never bothered with gas stabilizer and never had a problem with starting in the spring. I lived in the midwest (Ill and Mich) before Alaska, so the bikes were parked for a good long time every year. But, as they say, sometimes shit happens. That's the big disadvantage of running older bikes, parts wear out without warning, often at the most inconvenient time. At least it didn't leak out on the floor and burn the garage down. Right now I've got the old Triumph and an old 4 wheeler in pieces on the garage floor. So will add the 650 to that mess. Eventually they'll all get back together. As long as the T's running, I can direct my feet to the sunny side of the street!
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As I scanned the posts, didn't see where anyone mentioned the float seats may be fine, and the culprit in the carbs could be a bad float that filled and sank, thus opening he needles off the seats. If that is the case, it needs to be fixed sooner rather than later, as that has worse effect than a slow leaking needle valve, IMHO.
If someone already mentioned this, my apologies.
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Be grateful you checked the crankcase before firing it up. I had (now I do) no petcock on my riding lawn mower. I went to start it one day and it hesitated then fired off. 10 seconds later the the rod came through the side of the crankcase. The gas tank was empty and I had hydraulic fractured the engine. I had used the mower just a week before. As for gas I top off my 6 gallon Mille tank, add stabile and run it for a few minutes and then shut the petcocks off and run it till it quits on its own. I use the tank as storage for my generator as ice storms in N.C. have left me without joules more the a couple of times. In the spring I still have good gas and run it off and also use it on the lawn mower. 6 month old gas is not bad even without stabile. Now the country is moving to 15% ethanol.
An easy check on the petcocks is remove the gas hoses and turn them off and see what comes out. Maybe you just had one petcock slightly open?
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As I scanned the post, didn't see where anyone mentioned the float seats may be fine, and the culprit in the cards could be a bad float that filled and sank, thus opening he needles off the seats. If that is the case, it needs to be fixed sooner rather than later, as that has worse effect than a slow leaking needle valve, IMHO.
If someone already mentioned this, my apologies.
That happened to me with an antique airplane one day. I knew that airplane burned 6 gallons per hour. Dorcia and I were on a long cross country flight back home, and should have had plenty of fuel to arrive. :smiley:
The float had sunk, and it burned 7 1/2 gallons per hour. I saw the fuel gauges getting near empty, but (ahem) knew I had enough as we came over the field. It quit. I looked at Dorcia and said, "not to worry, we still have a half hour of fuel in the other tank." Turned the selector valve, the engine roared to life.. then quit again. Said, "I guess we'll land, now." :grin: Made an abbreviated pattern and a normal "emergency" landing. We pushed the airplane back to the hanger, a tough job..
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As I scanned the posts, didn't see where anyone mentioned the float seats may be fine, and the culprit in the carbs could be a bad float that filled and sank, thus opening he needles off the seats. If that is the case, it needs to be fixed sooner rather than later, as that has worse effect than a slow leaking needle valve, IMHO.
If someone already mentioned this, my apologies.
Will check everything once I get the carbs apart. Not too familiar with DelOrtos, but have had Amals apart many times, so expect they're not too much different. It's kind of interesting that the 850T, which is ten years older, hasn't had this problem, but maybe that's coming soon? The 650 has twice as many miles, so maybe that's the cause, more than the age. Thanks for all the comments.