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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kirkemon on June 19, 2019, 11:29:45 AM
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This morning's L.A. Times Opinion page has this article. I don't agree:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-fleming-motorcycle-speeding-police-20190619-story.html
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What a self-righteous twat.
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this computer wont allow me access to the article. whats up?
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Motorcyclists tend to be iconoclasts and rebels, loners who travel in packs and stick to their own kind. Adventure riders hang out with adventure riders, sport riders with sport riders, and Harley owners with other Harley owners.
But on one thing we are unified: No matter the bike, no matter the brand, we always signal to warn each other about cops. Riding on the Angeles Crest Highway, or Mulholland Drive or other favorite biker haunts, when we see Los Angeles Police Department or California Highway Patrol officers lurking, we alert oncoming riders by raising one hand above our heads and tapping our helmets.
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Well, I’m not doing it anymore.
Just over 5,100 motorcyclists died on U.S. roads in 2017, the last year for which complete numbers are available, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Motorcycle deaths now account for 14% of all motor vehicle deaths, a percentage that has doubled since 1997, and motorcyclists are 28 times more likely to die while riding than drivers or passengers in cars, IIHS numbers show. A lot of those deaths were in California. According to the Governors Highway Safety Assn., we have the highest number of registered motorcycles of any state in the country, and year after year we lead the nation in motorcycle fatalities.
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I’d much rather have those riders get a speeding ticket or two, and stay alive.
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About 40% of those deaths occurred in single-vehicle incidents, when riders hit a stationary object – a tree, a guard rail, a parked car or the pavement -- and more than a third of all motorcycle deaths involved speeding.
I’ve been riding California roads for more than 45 years, and I understand why people speed. Riding a motorcycle properly feels like flying, and higher speeds can increase this sensation. You feel deliciously liberated from gravity. Riding fast also cranks up the thrill level and offers you a way to test your skills.
Most of today’s bestselling bikes accelerate very quickly and can run at extremely high speeds. Riders usually run out of talent long before they run out of horsepower. In a very common Angeles Crest scenario, a rider is moving too fast to complete a turn, runs wide, and hits something – a barricade, if he’s lucky, or a parked car or a tree or a rock if he’s not.
Those who rip up the Snake in Malibu or race each other up the Crest see these accidents all the time. In the last year alone I’ve been an eyewitness to three such accidents. One of the victims would almost certainly have died had we not come upon the accident when we did, seconds after it happened, and summoned help.
Many of my riding buddies have had terrible accidents themselves. Despite that, no one I know has ever talked about slowing down for his own safety. The only reason motorcyclists slow down, in my experience, is because they’re afraid of getting a speeding ticket.
The CHP responds to multiple serious crashes every weekend on these roads. The injuries and deaths appear to do nothing to reduce the number of riders or the speed at which they travel.
A speeding ticket does. I know plenty of bikers who ride more slowly than they’d like to because they are maxed out on tickets. They’ve paid their fines, watched their insurance rates rise, and gone to traffic school to get a ticket dismissed so many times that they aren’t allowed to do that anymore.
It can get expensive. When an officer cites a rider for speeding, he might also notice the rider has an expired license, or no motorcycle endorsement or insurance, or write the bike up for expired tags, loud pipes, illegally customized turn signals or license plate brackets or any one of dozens of smaller infractions – all of which cost money to resolve. Years ago I got written up on a vintage Triumph and walked away with a pamphlet-length series of citations.
Those who haven’t been caught will slow down when warned. As soon as we see that tap on the helmet, we cut the throttle and watch for Johnny Law around the next corner. When we’re well past him, we get back on the gas and start hauling the mail again.
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I’ve played along, and done my part to help other riders avoid speeding tickets. But lately I’ve begun to wonder whether I’m helping anyone. Maybe age and a few of my own accidents – all off-road, so far, and none of them serious – have slowed me down. Maybe it’s post-traumatic stress disorder from seeing riders so badly mangled by the side of the road.
But lately I’ve concluded that by tapping my helmet, I’m warning them to slow down for a minute and then resume speeding. I’m actually enabling them to continue speeding with a sense they’ve avoided the consequences – though their excessive speed could result in the most serious consequence of all.
The way I see it today, I have two clear choices: Either tap my helmet every time a rider approaches, and hope they’ll slow down and stay slowed down until they figure out there’s no cop ahead. Or never tap my helmet at all, and hope some of them get cited.
I expect a ton of hate mail from friends who will read this and accuse me of siding with law enforcement against the motorcycling community. Fair enough. But I’d much rather have those riders get a speeding ticket or two, and stay alive.
Charles Fleming writes about cars and motorcycles for The Times, and is the author of the urban hiking guides "Secret Stairs" and "Secret Walks."
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What a self-righteous twat.
Nailed it!
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If the article is what Bad Chad posted I don't have an opinion either way. Every rider can make their own decision on how and where they ride, and how they interact with other riders.
I personally don't believe public roads are to be treated like a race track.
I have now gone full circle in my riding experience. When I started out on the street at 19 it was just about being on a bike. It wasn't about speeding, racing, stunts, etc. Cruising to the beach, riding up and down the beach, commuting to work and play. Sure I had some fun doing power slides on the beach and some fish tailing, but never on the street.
Then I got into faster and sportier bikes and tested the limits of my skill and endurance. Rode in all weather conditions and ended up taking a few defensive driving courses.
Now I am back to just enjoying the ride and only do silly things on the dirt.
I don't recall the last time I saw a cop on a ride, but if I do I will signal to other riders but only for a certain distance. Never liked when someone signaled that a cop was ahead and it was another 5 miles before I saw him. :grin:
I'm ok with single vehicle wrecks, but when someone involves another vehicle they are being selfish putting others at risk.
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Folks who write on opinion pages are self righteous practically by definition. The twat part depends on how strongly you disagree with him. He's not all wrong.
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Thank you Chad, for posting the article in it's entirety, including all the ads... ungh!
I know, they gotta pay the bills somehow, but man, that article was obnoxiously full of ads... and Chad didn't get all the stuff in the sidebars.
Anywho...
Fine, be a selfish, self-righteous twat and refuse to tell other bikers about cops. What's next? Not telling them about other road hazards that you see? Car crash, cop has someone pulled over around a blind corner, trash in the road... does the writer of that article take some responsibility if one of those riders crashes and dies because he didn't warn them? Where do we draw the line?
Myself, I warn others about road hazards ahead. Cops, trees, cars, they're all road hazards first and foremost. But that's me...
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I understand his point, but I disagree with it. I'm not responsible for how other motorist operate, if they are to dumb to drive within the limits of their ability, and the limits of the infrastructure, nothing I do is while passing going the other way is going to make a difference in the long run.
I always try to signal other motorcyclist, and any motor-vehical for that mater, of a cop waiting to pounce, it's just common curtacy . I have notice in the last couple years that it seems fewer people flash their headlights to warn other drivers of the fuzz, I wonder why?
The author is small minded in his thinking.
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A lot of you aren't familiar with Angeles Crest, and that's particularly the subject of this article. It's a fantastic motorcycle road rising several thousand feet above the Los Angeles area. It's one of the closest twisty rides north of town. And then it runs along the crest of the mountains twisting and turning the whole way. Every weekend wannabe racers suit up and pretend they're at the track. It's so bad up there, a sign was erected tallying the number of fatalities that year to date. There are usually several each weekend. This has been going on at least twenty years now since I lived there. Luckily I didn't work a 9-5, so could ride it during the week without tourist traffic or racers. I've heard of some pretty awful wrecks up there, one that I remember was four guys racing through a series of Ss and colliding with another coming the other direction. I think four died in that one. There are some pretty sheer drops and helicopter rescues.
I can certainly see the author's point of view. He's not talking about cops ticketing for five or ten over - they're watching for the guys who are endangering everyone. It gets crazy up there.
Don't ride Angeles crest on the weekend. That's my advice.
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If the writer wasn't expressing his twat like attitude, it wouldn't be much of a story would it? Probably wouldn't get published. Our society LOVES to find things to get upset about these days, like grass clippings on a road. I would describe him as more of a douche nozzle myself.
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If he wanted to slow other riders down, he could tap his helmet to them when there is no cops in his path. That would achieve the same thing.
Personally, I always advise other riders of danger, and a ticket is the biggest danger of all.
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Sheesh🤪 Tap the helmet, wave when possible, start a conversation in a pull out, middle of nowhere, or a Mom & Pop gas station/restaurant.
Be a MOTORCYCLIST. If you are one there's "The Code." Like "The Cowboy Way." Follow it.
If you don't know it, Dr Mark Tiger Edmonds will explain it in his books or his poetic CD's. (Great garage listening.)
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Be a MOTORCYCLIST. If you are one there's "The Code." Like "The Cowboy Way." Follow it.
Like "don't wear bermuda shorts on the way to the cotillion while riding your panhead?"
Is there a little wiggle room? If I'm an introvert, do I still have to talk to everyone at pull outs?
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Have no use for newspapers since my bird died.
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:copcar:
As if giving another rider the courtesy of a heads up is going to save a life... Big boy rules and Darwin rule on the road. Ride your ride and reap the reward/consequences.
Let the self righteous maroon feel morally superior. $10 says he drives a Prius, wears skinny jeans and is a vegan... (no offense to the plant eating :evil:)
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Motorcyclists tend to be iconoclasts and rebels, loners who travel in packs and stick to their own kind.
Loners who travel in packs?
Isn't that an oxymoron?
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Well....Depends.
those CA roads, maybe.
But out here flyover country, not much traffic, longer straighter roads.....just wave.
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If he wanted to slow other riders down, he could tap his helmet to them when there is no cops in his path. That would achieve the same thing.
Personally, I always advise other riders of danger, and a ticket is the biggest danger of all.
He wrote that in the last paragraph as an option.
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If there's something to communicate to an oncoming rider, I just flicker my high-beams. Whenever I see an oncoming car or bike flash their beams to ME, I know that something's ahead, and it means "Heighten awareness - Heads Up, Buddy!"; and so that's the signal I use.
Whether it's a speed trap, something laying in the road, a wreck, a deer standing by the road, or whatever, my reaction to the warning is the same - Get ready to slow down unexpectedly!
I did it yesterday on the Blue Ridge Parkway. As I rode along, a deer was walking from my right toward the road. I slowed way down, beeped my horn (the word "blew" or "sounded" are barely appropriate for my bike horns) and rode on. Just around the next curve was coming a Gold Wing. I flashed my high beam a couple of times, and as he went by I looked in my mirror and he already had his brake light on before he could see the deer. As he rounded the curve, the bike slowed dramatically.
I'll bet the deer was in the road by the time he got there, and the warning might have given him a couple seconds of "get ready".
I also passed a Park Police car (the kind that can give you a $500 ticket that has to be paid IN PERSON in Federal court in Asheville NC); I was running about 52 which is pretty marginal but he didn't turn around and come after me. But if a bike had been coming within the next half mile behind him, he'd for sure have gotten a flash or two just as a "don't run up on him going too fast"!
Lannis
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I've used the 'slow down' hand motion (palm down, pump up and down), but I like the headlight flash. Funny, but I haven't experienced that communication around here - I'll be starting something new.
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Just make your own decisions and live (or die) with them.
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This has been going on at least twenty years now since I lived there.
Longer. I've been reading about it since I started reading moto magazines back in about 1982.
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Lannis, you got lucky in that the cop was probably late for lunch or some other priority....
I thought you were joking about the fines... did a quick search and found this:
https://www.motorcycle.com/news/news1764.html (https://www.motorcycle.com/news/news1764.html)
Yuppers... they can fine you $500 ON THE SPOT, and can add more to it if you're not a polite little citizen...
I can understand why they do this, but holy cow... I'm worried that the precedent will grow and will become normal everywhere...
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I can understand why they do this, but holy cow... I'm worried that the precedent will grow and will become normal everywhere...
I remember riding with my old college roommate in his 1965 Mustang back in 1975. He got a ticket on the Parkway for 47 in a 45! I blame our long hair.
I talked to my cousin the Park Policeman about the Parkway once. The folks who manage the BRP (and quite rightly too, in my opinion) are determined that they are NOT going to let the Parkway become a venue like US129 at Deal's Gap where people are trailering in track bikes in order to set some kind of record or challenge.
Already, local towns are boosting their local roads (The Snake, The Back of the Dragon, The Tail of the Dragon, The Diamondback, the Rattlesnake and so on ad nauseum) for "bikers", which will automatically draw guys that will scare everyone else and kill themselves. I'd hate to see the Parkway get like that, and if a $500 or $1000 or $2000 fine is what it takes for the knee-and-elbow crowd to consider the "price of admission" for a Track Day too high, then that's fine by me.
Lannis
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It's hard not exceed the 45 mph limit especially on sport/std/adv/agile bikes on the BRP or Cherohala Pkwy. In years past I've gotten 2 of those $150 tickets riding 60-65 mph. Having said that. GOOD I say. It should be respected as a road to enjoy the beauty & lack of commercialization, signs & driveways. Save it for the Dragon, Warwoman Rd, Wayabah Rd etc.
It's a special, unique road. When I describe the BRP to riders out West about a 469 mile long road like the BRP they look at me like a dog hearing a sound for the 1st time.
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It's a special, unique road. When I describe the BRP to riders out West about a 469 mile long road like the BRP they look at me like a dog hearing a sound for the 1st time.
You're right about that. I rode it yesterday, and am going to ride it tomorrow to get to the Virginia Guzzi Rally, and then ride it again Saturday and Sunday, and then ... well, who knows?
The only slightly sad thing about it (and I remember how it was when I were a lad 50 years ago), is that the overlooks and the roadsides have been allowed to get overgrown. Not with magnificent oaks and mighty chestnuts native to the mountains, but with fast-growing trash trees that USED to be kept under control so you could ride along and see mighty vistas and stirring mountain scenes, and see miles from an overlook.
Now, much of it (at least in Virginia) is like riding a nice twisty quiet road through the woods, and the woods are full of deer leaping about on both sides of the road. Very nice in its way, but you can't even tell that you're riding thousands of feet above the valleys below, you're just in the woods ....
But there are still some clear stretches, so we'll enjoy those while we can.
Lannis
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Tap your helmet to warn for cops?
We don't do that over here.
Maybe he was just tapping his helmet to show his brain was running out of steam.
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If there's something to communicate to an oncoming rider, I just flicker my high-beams. Whenever I see an oncoming car or bike flash their beams to ME, I know that something's ahead, and it means "Heighten awareness - Heads Up, Buddy!"; and so that's the signal I use.
Whether it's a speed trap, something laying in the road, a wreck, a deer standing by the road, or whatever, my reaction to the warning is the same - Get ready to slow down unexpectedly!
I did it yesterday on the Blue Ridge Parkway. As I rode along, a deer was walking from my right toward the road. I slowed way down, beeped my horn (the word "blew" or "sounded" are barely appropriate for my bike horns) and rode on. Just around the next curve was coming a Gold Wing. I flashed my high beam a couple of times, and as he went by I looked in my mirror and he already had his brake light on before he could see the deer. As he rounded the curve, the bike slowed dramatically.
I'll bet the deer was in the road by the time he got there, and the warning might have given him a couple seconds of "get ready".
I also passed a Park Police car (the kind that can give you a $500 ticket that has to be paid IN PERSON in Federal court in Asheville NC); I was running about 52 which is pretty marginal but he didn't turn around and come after me. But if a bike had been coming within the next half mile behind him, he'd for sure have gotten a flash or two just as a "don't run up on him going too fast"!
Lannis
This!
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Flashing your high beams at oncoming vehicles to warn of cops, wrecks, or whatever is common here for bikes, cars, and trucks.
Larry
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Motorcyclists tend to be iconoclasts and rebels, loners who travel in packs and stick to their own kind.
Loners who travel in packs?
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Hah - reminds me of the old Laverne and Shirley show where Lenny and Squiggy went everywhere with their matching "Lone Wolf" jackets.
Steve
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You're right about that. I rode it yesterday, and am going to ride it tomorrow to get to the Virginia Guzzi Rally, and then ride it again Saturday and Sunday, and then ... well, who knows?
The only slightly sad thing about it (and I remember how it was when I were a lad 50 years ago), is that the overlooks and the roadsides have been allowed to get overgrown. Not with magnificent oaks and mighty chestnuts native to the mountains, but with fast-growing trash trees that USED to be kept under control so you could ride along and see mighty vistas and stirring mountain scenes, and see miles from an overlook.
Now, much of it (at least in Virginia) is like riding a nice twisty quiet road through the woods, and the woods are full of deer leaping about on both sides of the road. Very nice in its way, but you can't even tell that you're riding thousands of feet above the valleys below, you're just in the woods ....
But there are still some clear stretches, so we'll enjoy those while we can.
Lannis
I decided to enjoy the BRP while pulling a 27 foot travel trailer one year when the kids were young. Started in Cherokee and hauled most of the way camping in the campgrounds on the parkway and it was fantastic to pull into the overlooks and enjoy the views. But man did I feel sorry of the motorcyclists. Especially around Asheville where the bicyclists blocked my way and we had to crawl up some hills which further frustrated the motorcyclists. I would always pull in at every overlook on the right side of the road to let people go but I know they were frustrated.
What frustrates me when I am on my bike is the tourists going 30 in the curves and 50 in the passing zones. One time I had to pass as we were coming out of the curve into a passing zone and then keep the car at around 35 while a line of motorcyclists passed us by. The guy was either oblivious to our presence or just didn't care even though he had many overlooks to pull into.
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Full disclosure: I'm a self-righteous twat. I'll alert oncoming traffic to deer and elk, but to cops? Nope, sorry, they're on their own. Obey traffic laws or suffer the consequences. The cops are looking out for my best interests.
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I saw my first corpse on the Crest when I was young and somewhat reckless. It made me considerably less reckless. I saw a few more over the years and got tired of it. I don’t go up there on weekends anymore. I’m now 47, but ride like I’m older. It used to be about the adrenaline rush. Now it’s more of a relaxing meditation. Slowing down helped me discover the real joy of riding. It’s a pity so many die before they find it.
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I warn everyone, most people get done slightly over the limit & our govt has lowered limits from 110kph to 80kph arbitrarily & removed many passing zones.
As a young lad there were plenty of opportunities to pass a farmers tractor in “the hills” now short sighted muppets have double lined them all - oh but you can now pass a bicycle on double lines...
Can’t say I see the high speed mob these days but I don’t ride at peak times (or am I the idiot rider?) nahh I doubt the old girls see more than 100mph...
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This is the type of guy who drives right at the speed limit in the left lane on the freeway to save as all from ourselves.
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I don't get that he's that kind of guy at all.
His dilemma is whether to slow down very high speed riders who should be taking it easy on a crowded public roadway where they're being extremely unsafe, both to themselves and everyone else.
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I still think of it as pay to play. If you can't afford to pay then don't play. I would rather traffic cops funding come from violators than from taxes.
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I decided to enjoy the BRP while pulling a 27 foot travel trailer one year when the kids were young. Started in Cherokee and hauled most of the way camping in the campgrounds on the parkway and it was fantastic to pull into the overlooks and enjoy the views. But man did I feel sorry of the motorcyclists. Especially around Asheville where the bicyclists blocked my way and we had to crawl up some hills which further frustrated the motorcyclists. I would always pull in at every overlook on the right side of the road to let people go but I know they were frustrated.
What frustrates me when I am on my bike is the tourists going 30 in the curves and 50 in the passing zones. One time I had to pass as we were coming out of the curve into a passing zone and then keep the car at around 35 while a line of motorcyclists passed us by. The guy was either oblivious to our presence or just didn't care even though he had many overlooks to pull into.
Now I don't see most of those problems. Bicyclists aren't a problem because they are very slow and there's ALWAYS room to pass them. We must have passed 15 on a 50 mile stretch of Parkway yesterday and we didn't even slow down.
And cars going 50 on the straight and 30 in the turns? Not a problem on a motorcycle of reasonable size. Twist the throttle and squirt around them .....
Lannis