Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stickman92 on June 19, 2019, 11:53:34 AM
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Hi Guys,
I am new to the forum and kind of a new rider.
I bought a Breva 750 from 2009 and with 20000 miles a month ago in Belfast and I live in Dublin or so and I think I got ripped off as I've already had a set of problems:
- The hub in the transmition broke down 2 weeks ago and the shop replaced it when I brought the bike there.
- The clutch cable was very stretched and now it just snapped.
- I believe the clutch might have to be changed soon
The bike made a lot of clicking and whiring sounds and I don't know if it's normal or if they didn't set the transmission properly. Anybody knows if it's normal that it makes so much noise and I am just paranoid now or if so set up needs to be done ?
My second question is if I change the clutch what would be good to change at the same time (gaskets, seals, bearings, etc) ?
Thanks for your answer and if there is any problem with my post let me know :)
Regards,
Leo
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Hi again,
Another question that comes to mind :
Should I replace just the friction place or the whole assembly ?
Thanks for your answers.
Regards,
Leo
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Moving this to General Discussion , that way more members will see it .
Dusty
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Hmmmmm. Need to think about this.
I would be surprised if the clutch has gone in 20,000 miles.
On idle the gearbox will rattle. The transfer gears from the motor to the gearbox input shaft are helical cut gears; the rest of the box are straight cut. Because of the uneven firing stroke the gears rattle against each other when in neutral. Pull the clutch in, and if it is completely disengaging the rattling will stop. Put it in gear and it will definitely stop. They do whir and clatter a bit, but not excessively. Hard to tell without hearing if yours is excessive.
With the clutch, getting the tank off is a real bear, so with a clutch cable, I don't. Tape the new one to the old one at the top and slowly draw it through. I have only done in one clutch cable, and it was not the fault of the cable that it broke. The lever broke when we did a large off in oil and I replaced it with an aftermarket one. I didn't realise that it was not allowing the cable to pivot in the lever but was bending the cable. It broke. :cry:
If you do change the clutch there are seals and gaskets you could change; if they aren't leaking I wouldn't. You go in from the back to do the clutch, wheel off, swingarm off, mudguards off. (tag your indicator wires, they are not colour coded :shocked:) etc. You also have to be able to lift your bike as the LH lower rail has to at least be loose to get the gearbox out. To do the main gearbox seal you have to remove the gear on it. This needs two special tools, an arm and a leg for genuine Guzzi ones. If you do end up doing the clutch do not throw away the clutch plate. You can cut the centre out and use it to make a genuine accessory Guzzi tool to hold the input shaft. I bought a good quality Koken 6 point socket to make the other tool needed. It is cranked to clear the casing. I made the crank an exact size so that I could cramp it in place to the casing. This nut is usually done up to six million foot tons by guzzi. :evil: As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-repair-breva-750-nick-webb.pdf
This is a very good article; ok, it's about the gearbox repair (the early Brevas had a faulty selector fork assembly) and a number of us had cause to need the gearbox out. It's worth it for the read if nothing else. Nick has an entertaining writing style. :thumb: :grin:
Best of luck in whichever way you go. I have had my Breva since Jan 2004 and love it, in spite of getting a lemon gearbox.
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Note that Breva, Nevada & (the earlier 2 Throttle body) V7s are the same bike under the skin, so most of the articles on one also apply to the others. Searching past threads on this site will give you a wealth on information. Try "clutch adjustment", "clutch cable" to start.
I've had 2 cables break on the V7C - at 107,000 & 169,000km - for no particular reason that was obviously apparent. If yours broke at 20,000, there's likely something wrong. Note that the cables are Teflon-lined and DON'T need a lubricant. Though a little lube on the little bit in the clutch lever slot is a good idea. Check the cable routing - the cable tends to lodge between the fins, get hot & the inner sheath melts. That's why the replacement cable has the two big rubber cushions on it. Some people tie the cable high between the V of the engine. Also check that the lever arm behind the gearbox is moving freely on its clevis pin, and doesn't touch either the swing arm or the gearbox cover in its normal movement range. Check that there's a spring between the arm & the gearbox cover.
What symptoms make you think a new clutch may be needed?
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for your answer, and thanks to oldbike54 for moving my post :)
I am not sure the clutch needs to be replaced but from what I read you have to tighten the clutch cable when you have wear of the plate so I was thinking it might be this.
It also doesn't engage completely and it is impossible to put in neutral when it's on and it doesn't engage completely so I always have to brake or turn it off at a red light which is really annoying. I thought it might be because of the cable or the clutch.
The mechanics I bought the bike from told me the clutch cable was stretched and that the previous owner changed the bars to a straight one and that the cable might be too loose. I changed the bars straight away to a standard one and tightened the cable at the lever but it went back to previous in no time.
I already ordered a new cable so I will check if it sorts everything out... I just hope it does because changing the clutch seems really fastidious :(
Anyway thanks for your help I will keep you posted on the result :bow:
Leo
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Leo,
Before anything else, make sure the clutch cable isn't binding at either end, and adjust the cable. The cable adjusts at both ends;
1. At the handle bar lever (the easy adjustment)
2. On the clutch arm on the back of the box, under the bike. Make sure the arm is not resting on the end of the clutch pushrod as it will toast the pushrod thrust bearing. Best view is on the left side with your head under the footpegs, feet out to the front of the bike. Good to have the bike on a lift 3 ft or higher. Centerstand is also possible. Just the sidestand is tough.
Lock nut is 13mm. The adjustment screw doesn’t have a standard end, just a flat nub. A 4mm wrench fits, but is sloppy and might round it off in time. A 3.5 or 3.75mm would fit better. The best tool for the adjustment screw is a bicycle 8 way spoke wrench, for adjusting size 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 Gauge spokes. You can find a slot in the wrench that has the perfect fit.
I used PB Blaster penetrating solvent to loosen things up, and it was necessary! I let it sit for 20 min w the solvent a few times.
Correct adjustment method :
- 1st completely slacken off the adjuster on the hand lever, to make the system loose.
- then adjust the arm so it does not quite touch the pushrod. Adjust the nub to make everything tight, but still leave at least 1mm of slack at the hand lever. Make sure the arm isn’t hitting the frame, front or back, when lever is pressed and released.
- then adjust the hand lever
I also invite you to join the MG 750 Yahoo Group. It's got a multitude of repair guides in the group's Files page and Links page.
Joe
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MG_750/info (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MG_750/info)
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Yep, sounds like the old "having trouble changing gear, cos the cable not adjusted right" trick. Common on the modern smallblocks, at least. The adjustment at the handlebar lever should leave only 1 to 2mm slack, and gears should engage further out, rather than closer to the handlebar.
Adjust as Joe says above. There's plenty of other people that have had this problem & threads on it about, both on here & elsewhere - I think there's even U-tub videos. I have found it easier to get at by removing the rear wheel & tying the swing arm up to the rear rack. (There's instructions on removing the rear wheel in the "Files" section of the MG 750 yahoo forum). You, with a new-to-you snallblock, should do that anyway - it's likely that the splines which connect the drive shaft to the gearbox need a coat of grease, although the shop SHOULD HAVE done it when they fixed the bevel box. To get at that, remove the bevel box's 4 dome nuts & pull it off. Don't let the swing arm fall down - the square edges can interfere with the gear linkage tie rod - and keep an eye on the little spring in the end of the drive shaft (it will be looking at you from out of the swing arm.
It's all pretty straight forward, and will get easier (or, at least less daunting) the more often you do it. I re-grease the drive shaft splines each time I replace the rear tyre (each 10 -20,000km depending on the tyre & how you ride).
While you are looking at the rear of the gearbox, and have cleaned everything back there, check on the position of the outer body, that mushroom-like thing behind the lever arm - it should be flush with the gearbox cover. At 20K miles, it still should be, but if recessed it's an indication of one problem, and if standing proud, indication of another.
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It's all pretty straight forward, and will get easier (or, at least less daunting) the more often you do it. I re-grease the drive shaft splines each time I replace the rear tyre (each 10 -20,000km depending on the tyre & how you ride).
While you are looking at the rear of the gearbox, and have cleaned everything back there, check on the position of the outer body, that mushroom-like thing behind the lever arm - it should be flush with the gearbox cover. At 20K miles, it still should be, but if recessed it's an indication of one problem, and if standing proud, indication of another.
Good points here by Mal.
That mushroom like thing that Mal mentions, if you grab the nub with a pair of pliers and pull, behind that is a Thorrington bearing which is the clutch throw-out bearing. I grease that at the same time. I also pull the clutch pushrod and put a dab of grease on the end part that sits in the clutch. Don't know whether it does any good but it can't hurt.
One thing on mine that the guy doing the Warrant of Fitness found, there was some sideways play in the the rod linking the gear change and the gearbox linkage rod. It would move sideways each gear change, and put enough strain on that it bent the linkage rod on the back of the gearbox. I don't know whether Luigi left out a spacer or not at the factory, either way I turned up a bush from a piece of acetyl engineering plastic rod; taking that play out made a big difference to the smoothness of the gear changes. I also replaced the 6mm threaded rod that the linkage is made of with a bit of 12mm bright steel rod; end of bending linkage rods! :grin:
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Hi guys,
Thanks for your help. The cable is already broken so I'll have to change it anyway but it's good to have the instructions to adjust it after and it couldnt be more precise :bow:
The mechanics at the shop told me he put some grease yes so it should be fine for now. However I was looking at the service manual and it was saying that you have to put so blue to check the proper fitment of the shaft. I don't k ow if they properly did it when changing the hub... Should I be concerned?
Thanks for the tip on the yahoo group I'll try to join it.
Its good to see that there is a community so helpful :)
Leo
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The mechanics at the shop told me he put some grease yes so it should be fine for now. However I was looking at the service manual and it was saying that you have to put so blue to check the proper fitment of the shaft. I don't k ow if they properly did it when changing the hub... Should I be concerned?
Leo
Haven't heard that one. :undecided: Joe, any ideas?
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Hi guys,
The mechanics at the shop told me he put some grease yes so it should be fine for now. However I was looking at the service manual and it was saying that you have to put so blue to check the proper fitment of the shaft. I don't k ow if they properly did it when changing the hub... Should I be concerned?
.....
Leo
Nah, shouldn't think so. If the rear wheel turns & there's no severe noises, it's likely on right. The box won't bolt back onto the swingarm if the splines don't mesh. From memory (Swiss cheese unreliable these days) the bluing in the manual is used to check the wear of the faces of the gears inside the bevel box itself.
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While I've one of the bikes in bits, I've taken the opportunity to have a tool made up to fit that grub screw.
(https://i.ibb.co/7zT2R2m/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7zT2R2m)
(https://i.ibb.co/JzjtVC0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JzjtVC0)
online yahtzee dice (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
Muzz, about those linkages - I've heard from a few sources that the studded rod ends that Guzzi supplies are not too flash - yes, you can take them apart & clean them & lube with white lithium grease, but there is still a lot of slack in a linkage that only needs a poofteenth. I've been gradually changing out the studded rod ends for Rose joints (heim joints in the U.S.). So far (only 80,000km) they seem to be working fine. Here the stainless ones are a little harder to get hold of & a bit more expensive.
(https://i.ibb.co/QrtJD6V/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QrtJD6V)
You don't have to go & change them all at once, but they are small enough to carry a pair with your tools in case of an emergency. I've had a couple of the studded rod ends shear on me, as has a mate with a Cali. (Could be just abuse??).
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Mal. I changed mine out with the same style. My bearing man who I have dealt with for years has a fairly good quality one that he carries and sells to me at a very reasonable price. They make the original ones (which were actually quite badly slogged considering the mileage of the bike) look like a kids toy. Much more solid and the stem with the internal thread is meatier and longer.
I made up the same spanner for the adjuster, makes it a lot easier.
When I made my new 12mm threaded linkage I made it so it does not have the reverse thread on it, but measured it so that it is exactly the right length and has no visible thread showing. It will only be a problem if I ever sell the bike, which aint on the cards at this stage. :grin:
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Hi guys,
I just received the clutch cable after 3 weeks of wait ... I found this btw http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=26371.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=26371.0) on the forum which was also really helpful. Unfortunately as the bike is kind of in it's own juice I really struggled to get that metal piece at the end of the cable out of the slot and as I am really gentle I managed to break the slot :violent1: ...
The metal bit doesn't stay in place anymore which is really anoying as you can imagine...
Anybody has an idea how I can fix that or will I have to replace the whole casing ?
Thanks
Leo
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I'm not clear on which bit is broken. A more detailed description and/or a photo might be helpful, please.
And no sweat - you're not the first & won't be be the last. I've a litany of similar (and worse) over enthusiastic efforts. Part of the learning process, I guess.
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And here's Pete's original instructions on clutch adjustment, which I have found most succinct.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73961.msg1156154#msg1156154
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Hi guys,
Sorry for the delay, here is some pictures (http://<br />[url=https://ibb.co/sR2FffH][img]https://i.ibb.co/sR2FffH/IMG-20190723-170057.jpg)[/url]
(https://i.ibb.co/fnL8NQG/IMG-20190723-170039.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnL8NQG)
[/img]
Its not really clear but its the small slot where you put the end of the clutch cable surrounding on the casing. It's cast aluminium, I have the broken piece bit not sure it'll hold if I try to glue it...
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Mate first off welcome and good on you for asking for help.
I think you said you were new to bikes and you make me realise just how much knowlege we absorb over the years that is necessary to fettle our bikes and get them sorted.
It’s a lonely path you are on, trying to deal with all the teething issues you encounter with buying a used bike that has been let go a bit.
Were I you ?
I’d find someone who knows bikes inside out and ask to be tutored through the in’s and out’s of basic bike maintenance or you’ll run the very real risk of causing one problem each time you try to solve one and your enjoyment of your new bike experience will be contaminated.
You’re not short of dedication and sound like you’ve a passion for your bike. Try not to lose patience mate, it’s worth the effort, but much harder when you’re trying to gain skills and on your own.
If you were in the UK, I’d have the perfect solution for you.
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Also.
If you can embrace the concept that working on your bike is an integral part of ownership enjoyment, then you’ll have endless fun ahead !
But seriously, there are always a myriad of things to do on a recently acquired used bike if you want to take them from a rough as bags perpetually breaking down embuggerance, to something approaching a dependable smoothly operating machine.
To navigate through all the hurdles requires a solid base of fundamental knowlege that you’ll need to draw on as you go, but it can be a lot of fun if you can maintain your patience while learning these basic skills.
An example of what I mean is when you (justifiably) believe your clutch cable “stretched then broke”.
An understandable way to think all things considered, but without looking, I’d say that the nipple was not rotating in the lever due to lack of lubrication and fatigued the cable to the point of breaking.
Just an example of what I’m referring to mate.
If you can find a Roper or Guzzi Steve type, take your advice from him (or her), and do what they say and ask a million questions, none of them are stupid mate..
Good luck and stay interested.
What would it cost to put yourself and your bike on a ferry to UK ?
Oh and finally..
Pete Roper is not the font of all knowlege as he will readily admit, but if he tells you something on this forum...?
BELIEVE IT MATE..!
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Anybody has an idea how I can fix that or will I have to replace the whole casing ?
Ugh- that's a bummer. With a bit of work, you might be able to get by without replacing the case- which would be expensive.
See that nut that is just outboard of the cable (in your picture). No- I'm not calling you a nut.
Could you fabricate a piece that you could put under that bolt, makes a right angle and long enough to sit above the broken case, and have a braze-on retainer for the cable? Basically, an "L" shaped flat with a hole on one side a retainer...
I dunno? Maybe? Maybe not? I'm just thinking and typing out loud.
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You won’t be able to braze anything there because it’s aluminium (I think..!) but aluminium welding is possible in theory although there will be associated issues.
From your shot, it looks like there may be a possibility to fabricate a clamp over the top as mentioned, that pulls the cable end down into the register, hard to say without a better look.
However.
You will feel good and learn a lot by seeing this through, this is what makes some owners different from others. You’ll get to know your bike more intimately and will be happier and the better for it.
Stick to it mate...
You’ll get there.
(Huzo)
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Bugger. To quote Ollie Hardy "Now that's a fine pickle you've got me into". It looks like it's the casting on the top of the gearbox ("transmission cage " in the Spare Parts Manual) that the ferrule on the outer sheath of the clutch cable fit & stops it moving. I'll put up a clearer photo later this morning (from a gearbox in splendid separation). In situ, it's really awkward to get at, AND that bloody airbox is in the way again. And the side cover frame, and the hoses, and there's not much room in there anyway. Tons for a watchmaker, but not for the rest of us. It may be possible to jury-rig something (suggestions, people?) or perhaps something like JB Weld will work to reattach the broken bit.
Once the gearbox is off the bike, of course, there's plenty of room & an aluminium welder should have no difficulty rebuilding the casting. But getting to that point is not a job of moments. The professionals charge for about 6 hours labour to get the gearbox out & back in again, and they have done it before. In the long term that is likely to be part of the solution, but let's see if some short term fix/work around can be found. I'll have a ponder & get back to you.
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Don’t lose the broken off bit..
You’ll never be able to fully rely on glue or similar, it’ll let go at the worst time.
Something like, you’re waiting to turn after a car passes and the cable lets go with you launching forward....
No thanks.
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And don't bin the broken cable & its sheath either. I've an idea that it might come in handy.
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A couple of photos of an unbroken cable stop from a gearbox that's accessible (free of the rest of the bike). I think you'll find that you will have to set up something that holds the outer cable near where it is supposed to stop.
(https://i.ibb.co/1rBB6R0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rBB6R0)
(https://i.ibb.co/tCxHGMC/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tCxHGMC)
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So the broken part is the cable end holder that's cast into the case? That's going to be tough. I don't think it takes too much stress, so JB Weld might work to paste a new boss there, although that's not the best solution.
Joe
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If you don't want to remove gearboxe I would be looking at welding up a bracket that bolts on to the nearby mount and extends out to where cable mount is on the gearbox.
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Here's a thought - the cable ferrule is stepped, 8mm at the narrow end, & about 12mm at the wider. If you get a washer with an 8-10 mm ID, cut a slot in it (say with a hacksaw or angle grinder) wide enough to get the washer over the cable wire, then that could be used against the forward end of the casting, and pack the JB Weld in between the broken casting and the washer. The couple of mil extra should be OK - within the normal adjustmement capacity - and the washer and the weld might help stop any twisting. Might work. Easy to do without taking everything apart. A touch more elegant than fencing wire, which was an early thought, and discarded.
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If you don't want to remove gearboxe I would be looking at welding up a bracket that bolts on to the nearby mount and extends out to where cable mount is on the gearbox.
That’d be a good plan..
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I was thinking the same thing with the washer. I will try that and if it doesn't hold the bracket will be another solution.
I will probably have to drop the gearbox at some point so I mignt have it properly welded or replaced in the future.
The only thing is that if it snaps again I would probably lose the tiny bit.
Another question : Is that normal that my casing is painted black (and not a perfect job) ? everywhere I see pictures they seem just bare aluminium.
Thanks
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A black gearbox? The V7s were all black, I thought the Brevas were all bare, but as it's the same box, I suppose some might have been issued like that. Is your engine black-painted too? If not, a PO may have had gearbox problems in the past. Note that the earlier Nevada's, at least, were grey painted, and I've an idea that the later ones were unpainted.
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Also note that at the time your Breva was built, the V7 Classic was in full swing, and it would make sense for the factory to use what they had plenty of. Colour Schmolour, let them have black.
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A black gearbox? The V7s were all black, I thought the Brevas were all bare, but as it's the same box,
This. The Brevas were all bare. The V7 may have a different selector fork in them.