Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: normzone on June 26, 2019, 11:26:54 AM
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It does it when the weather is warm, it does it when it is cool.
It does it at high speeds, it does it at low speeds.
But it doesn't do it all the time ...
Yes, it's another episode of Bassa Talk, where I think out loud and pray for brains.
Should I be looking at exhaust pipe to muffler connections? Exhaust pipe to cylinder head gaskets? Or is there a deeper, darker, more evil explanation?
And what about Naomi?
:weiner:
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Yes..
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Whats the load and throttle position?, for instance trailing throttle, steady throttle slight downhill or pulling hard third gear 6k rpm
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On decelleration - throttle backed off.
If it's any clue, it used to do it only at low speeds, but it's willing to do it at high speeds now if it's in the mood.
:sad:
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That, combined with your terrible fuel economy, says it is running rich to me. Have you hooked up GuzziDiag yet?
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I have a query in to my local benefactor re that, but this is not an auspicious weekend for many people ... I'll have to wait and see.
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It's either too rich , too lean , has an exhaust leak , or is broken . Hope that clears it up Norm .
Dusty
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I feel so much better now that I know what to look for - I'll take it all apart this weekend and fix the problem/s
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On decelleration - throttle backed off.
If it's any clue, it used to do it only at low speeds, but it's willing to do it at high speeds now if it's in the mood.
:sad:
In order for it to ignite beyond the cylinder, adequate oxygen must be present to facilitate combustion of residual fuel in exhaust gases. If it was my bike, I would check & tighten all exhaust connections and for cracks as mentioned before chasing more complicated fuel/tuning issues. If it's getting worse, it's probably getting more loose..
This situation is usually caused by loose exhaust nuts/bolts/clamps/studs and bad exhaust gaskets. Once everything is known to be properly tightened and sealed, then you can pursue other concerns.
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A new engine can stand a leaner mixture than a broken in engine. I'll look for the reference
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I have spare exhaust collar gaskets -
Perhaps I'll start the trouble shooting by swapping out the stock Bassa instrument console for one from a Jackal.
No, seriously, I have one I've been waiting to install.
:popcorn:
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What Norman has failed to mention is he is getting around 25 mpg. Normally ( :grin:) a guy would think exhaust leak, but fixing that just might be covering up the symptom rather than fixing the cause.
Obviously, for whatever reason, it's running pig rich. I would be surprised if you couldn't smell it. What say, Norman?
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A) Jerry Riopelle has Naomi under control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W91RrF6NLN8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W91RrF6NLN8)
B) If it's not mechanical maybe time for a Beetle map?
Keep us posted on Bassa Talk channel
Paul B :boozing:
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What Norman has failed to mention is he is getting around 25 mpg. Normally ( :grin:) a guy would think exhaust leak, but fixing that just might be covering up the symptom rather than fixing the cause.
Obviously, for whatever reason, it's running pig rich. I would be surprised if you couldn't smell it. What say, Norman?
Well, the ends of the sound reducing cans definitely have some black carbon buildup you can wipe out readily with a fingertip, but I'd expect that in anything that's not my old Eldo.
As for smelling it, the thing is that I'm above and ahead of the exhaust fumes when I go down the freeway. I guess I could ask the guy behind me :smiley:
[RinkRat II], Beetle sent me a map yesterday - I don't know how to use it yet but Aaron and I will figure it out soon.
Frankly, I would remap it if only to know for sure what it's got on it. Unless we hook up Guzzi Diag and get an identifier that makes you guys go " Oh, don't change THAT, that map is a collectors item ! "
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When you tighten down the exhaust header use caution , everyone says make all connections tight but you don’t want to snap off one of the studs or you’ll really be in the deep sh__
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Yeah, I imagine there's a torque spec someplace, but I'd begin with a conservative hand - as I recall I put a wrench to them once and felt no need to tighten them. Of course, that was a couple of years ago.
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If running that fat (bunch) you'll smell it right in the shop sitting there running!
:-)
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My first thought was that you had eaten too many beans.
Then I read the thread. Sorry. :embarrassed:
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Has the bike always gotten 25mpg? If not (and it used to get 38-40mpg) would one want to remap the bike's ecu without knowing what (mechanically) has caused the dramatic decrease in mpg? Or first look for the mechanical issue causing low mileage?
Just asking.
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Has the bike always gotten 25mpg? If not (and it used to get 38-40mpg) would one want to remap the bike's ecu without knowing what (mechanically) has caused the dramatic decrease in mpg? Or first look for the mechanical issue causing low mileage?
This.
Worthy of a 'like', if only such a button existed....
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Has the bike always gotten 25mpg? If not (and it used to get 38-40mpg) would one want to remap the bike's ecu without knowing what (mechanically) has caused the dramatic decrease in mpg? Or first look for the mechanical issue causing low mileage?
Just asking.
Right. There is something basically *wrong* here. We, collectively, need to ferret it out.
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Right. There is something basically *wrong* here. We, collectively, need to ferret it out.
I agree , and using the *start with the simplest thing* concept , start with checking the spark plugs , wires , valve lash , air cleaner , etc . The stock mapping shouldn't be too off on that series .
Dusty
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This is a 99? Where does the engine heat sensor come from? The left valve cover like the '98? Or the right cylinder head? If the latter, the sensor can become loose or break. If so, the heat signal will never be adequate and the computer will always run it very rich as if startup cold. The right side cylinder head sensor is in a plastic body and gets brittle and breaks. There is an all-metal improved replacement. Add some thermal paste to ensure proper heat transfer to the sensor.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Thank you Patrick - did that long ago, put a new sensor and the brass fitting with thermal paste and even after reading the LONG thread re the subject decided to amuse myself by making a copper spring to load the space between the end of the sensor and the bottom of the threaded hole - it had no effect.
I bought the bike and was dismayed to get forty couple mpg on the first tank leaving Tucson for San Diego, and it went down to the low thirties shortly thereafter, then settled in the high twenties where it has performed for the last couple of years.
I'll do the valves and plugs this weekend, but that's been done by the numbers since I bought the bike in early '14.
Sean Fader has set the TPS early on, and again after my clutch/drive train work.
Perhaps the fact that the chickens I'm sacrificing are free range is the problem.
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Free-range chickens will get you everytime... :drool:
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That needs fixing, way too much fuel. What have you done to that poor machine, Norm? It's defiantly time for a troubleshooting contest :grin:
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My logbook says that when I do valves, plugs, and air filter this weekend I'll be doing it approximately 250 miles ahead of schedule.
I'll eval the exhaust gaskets and pipes/mufflers joints and take action as appropriate. I have spare gaskets and nuts for the pipe / head junctions.
With some luck Aaron and I will Guzzi Diag next weekend.
But you may as well keep your thinking caps on, because short of the Guzzi Diag I've done all that many times over.
Oh yeah, and ohm out the high tension wires ...
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I really think it's worth checking the TPS voltage and setting it from scratch with the 150mv fully closed method and then opening the butterflies to whatever the correct setting is, (450mv? Can't remember offhand.) do this with a multimeter, not Guzzidiag, it's not accurate enough. Also check for a smooth, un-stepped increase in the TPS value as the twistgrip is opened.
The suggestion about the ETS holder being cracked is also sage. No matter how rich it's running though I feel that this may be spark related, maybe it's 8/12/16 stroking? That will give symptoms similar to 'Rich' and give serious backfiring problems on the over-run. Perhaps the phase sensor gap is a bit too large and as the sensor deteriorates with age it's creating problems.
Pete
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That needs fixing, way too much fuel. What have you done to that poor machine, Norm? It's defiantly time for a troubleshooting contest :grin:
Defiantly..?
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Defiantly..?
Absolutely it's the only way. We've seen it before here, the author claimed spell check did it but we know he was lying. I hope it wasn't me!
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Norman.. I was just on the phone with Dusty, and we were knocking this problem around a little. I'm still thinking it's a sensor telling the computer it's too cold. While GuzziDiag will tell you that, if it were me.. I'd get a can of Caig DeOxit, take all the electrical connectors apart at the sensors, etc.. give em a squirt, put em together, wiggle them around, oh..you know. :smiley: Maybe it's just corrosion. Dusty mentioned the center muffler maybe clogged? The colonoscopy bag is a fairly restrictive muffler. Maybe a mouse decided to set up housekeeping? It's going to be something simple..
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Norm said miles per gallon went from 40's to 30's on the trip back home when he first got it. if he rides slow it may not rule out a mouse nest but it points more towards a sensor input, I think
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Chuck, on my model the PO upgraded the center muffler to a bi-direction reflux system, so what used to be central exhaust gases now flows out with the left and right systems.
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^^^So you're saying it has heartburn ?
Dusty
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^^^So you're saying it has heartburn ? Dusty
Well, the plugs have always looked like they burn clean and lean ...
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Well, the plugs have always looked like they burn clean and lean ...
late timing
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Norm, do I need to come down there and rough up your bike :evil: :evil: :evil:
Are you sure about the current mileage? Did you ever ride it for a known distance like to work or wherever?
At Henshaw, I did not notice an excessive smell of gas and it seemed to start and idle fine.
Tom
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Thanks [Tom H] - anytime you want to come down and slap the Bassa around a little bit just let me know and I'll make room for you in the spare bedroom.
Actually, that's all I do, ride to and from work when I am working.
Since the speedo is dead at all levels, I google maps my rides and track it all in the logbook. Not supremely accurate, but close enough for an audit.
There's an outside chance that the Jackal speedo I'm swapping to soon may actually work.
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<tearing hair out> Aaaaaghhhh, you don't actually *know* what mileage you are getting??
Two demerits.
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I assume it's the small computer. If so it's the cam position sensor and or the tps. If the tps fails in hot weather / under load i feel the bike goes into limp home mode until the battery is disconected. I bet the tps is done for. Still a good idea to replace all relays if you haven't yet. If so clean and spray as suggested.
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<tearing hair out> Aaaaaghhhh, you don't actually *know* what mileage you are getting?? Two demerits.
Your honor ... May I please address the court?
Somebody said that a man who represents himself has a fool for a client. I'll not deny that.
But the initial data was developed back when I still had not only a functional analog speedometer, but also an odometer AND a trip meter.
We need not even mention the once proud tachometer, manufactured by the legendary Veglia Borletti, known round the world for accuracy, precision, and ... reliability.
(uproar in the court)
Your honor, please strike my last sentence from the record.
Then, as first the speedo, then the odometer, and lastly the trip meter gave up their humble mechanical lives in the defense of ... well, they gave up ... I was compelled to resort to estimation.
But not just ANY estimation, your honor, but Computer Aided Estimation (CAE). Why, even aircraft pilots have been known to rely on this tool.
I rest my case, your honor. If the demerits must stand, so be it.
But you, the jury, should think on this one thing ... Those demerits were assigned using A COMPUTER.
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:grin: :grin: Good stuff there, Norman.. :thumb: :boozing:
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Thank you.
So ... about those demerits.
Are they permanent? Do they drop off in ninety days or something?
Is this going to prevent me from getting a ... pay raise? Or a revenue sharing check? Or a cold beer?
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its a stain that will follow your descendants for generations. its almost as bad for me, its said I cant even tune a gasoline engine. Us Bassa owners have a secret sect. the way you weaseled out of that one makes you one of us
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I was just askin'.
For instance my EVT with city driving only went 96 miles with 3.2 gallons. I'm pretty sure I filled it to the spot I always stop at last time. When I did my commute of mainly freeway driving, it used the same amount and went 120 miles (mileage had a variance of 5 miles with 5 bikes and a new truck. Distance could change slightly with the same vehicle).
Tom
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its a stain that will follow your descendants for generations. its almost as bad for me, its said I cant even tune a gasoline engine. Us Bassa owners have a secret sect. the way you weaseled out of that one makes you one of us
Very cool.
Is there a secret handshake or something I need to learn?
Can I add " a stain that will follow your descendants for generations " to my tagline?
EDIT: REMOVED MY REFERENCE TO POLITICS JUST IN CASE -
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I bought the bike and was dismayed to get forty couple mpg on the first tank leaving Tucson for San Diego, and it went down to the low thirties shortly thereafter, then settled in the high twenties where it has performed for the last couple of years.
Norm,. on the mileage. 40mpg on the freeway would be normal, this is what my EVT gets. I mentioned this already, now that I'm not doing my freeway commute and now driving the city streets with a traffic light at every corner (at least it seems that way), I think my mileage is about 30mpg. I'll check again when I use up this tank. My HD used to get 40mpg, now it's about 30 as well. The fuel light used come on at about 125 miles, not it's about 95 miles of city.
The popping on decel.... I would really be looking at your exhaust system as other have mentioned, I would also check the intake rubber boots for cracks. Then move on to fuel and ignition.
You mentioned the soot on the exhaust tips, my EVT get a dry soot as well. Not much, but it get on your finger
(https://i.ibb.co/BTbnMCk/0628191356.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BTbnMCk) (https://i.ibb.co/Gdywdfx/0628191400.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gdywdfx)
Tom
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Tank off and the sun is going down.
Brought it home hot and played unlit propane torch at all the exhaust connections ... boring.
Will do valves, plugs, air filter and Jackal dashboard in the AM.
Chuck, you and others have mentioned sensors.
Whats that unimportant looking lump about the size of three beans mounted on the inboard side of the starboard bracket that the big rubber tank mount bushing mounts to - two wires to a connector fitting, color code purple and the other red/white ?
I don't know if it's a sensor, or whatever, but it's there and I've never changed it. Never heard any talk about it either.
:grin: :grin: Good stuff there, Norman.. :thumb: :boozing:
If you ever need legal representation I'm looking for opportunities to practice.
Thanks TomH - old intake boots with known cracks have been replaced when clutch work was done - I'll check all exhaust joints in the AM
Beer thirty now :boozing:
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that is the ambient air temp probe.
as for the secret handshake, its a secret. in other words: we forgot what it was
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AMBIENT AIR TEMP PROBE ?
How the hell can I test it?
Is it readily available someplace?
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I'm pretty sure air temperature is one of the items you can select in Guzzidiag to monitor.
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AMBIENT AIR TEMP PROBE ?
How the hell can I test it?
Is it readily available someplace?
This might serve useful.
https://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf
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Yes, you need to get GuzziDiag connected, you can see data from all the sensors.
On a cold engine, the air temperature sensor should be within 1 or 2 degrees of the engine temperature sensor. Both should be close to ambient. Any wild variation should condemn the sensor.
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I changed the engine temp sensor long ago, with brass connector upgrade.
It's somewhat under 80F here, and the sensor reads 3.47K ohms - that seems about right based on the elfman pdf chart, but GuzziDiag will tell the tale I guess.
Waiting update from my local benefactor on that issue ...
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I have a GuzziDiag date Sunday at 4:00 - I figure casual dress, no pressure since it's only the second time we're meeting, and I'll pay.
Going for a test ride now. All I really accomplished today was plugs, valve, air filter, and getting mosquito bit all to *^$#, but that and some fuel injector cleaner in the gas is still a good thing.
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The afterfiring is still there, Muzz - I found no exhaust looseness when I checked the joints.
Aaron is on his way over now.
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How come these new computer controlled bikes get such awful mileage??? My old LM4 gets somewhere between low 40s to almost 50 - no computer, just Dellortos with accelerator pumps.
Have you contacted the previous owner about this? Perhaps he can shed some light on the issue - when it started, what was going on. Maybe there IS a mouse nest in the muffler.
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How come these new computer controlled bikes get such awful mileage??? My old LM4 gets somewhere between low 40s to almost 50 - no computer, just Dellortos with accelerator pumps.
On the MPG. Take your LM4 and add a National Cycle HD police style shield, saddle bags and a trunk and then ride it down an interstate at 70-75 MPH and see what you get. Then do the same on a city street that you stop at every block.
If I pulled my shield, bags and trunk off my Eldo and added civi bars and tuned them upside down and put rear pegs instead of boards so I'm in a tuck, I could probably get close to 50mpg on the freeway.
JMHO. if I lived in a place that I could ride at about 50 mph for miles at a time without a traffic light, I could see 45mpg out of my Eldo and Ambo. My EVT is heavy, not sure what I would get. Norms Bassa is a fairly heavy bike.
Tom
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Update:
I changed air filter, plugs, and adjusted the valves.
Valves were only oversize .001 - .002, so I'm discounting that.
Plugs were evidently rich, but again I'm viewing that as an effect, not a cause.
The air filter did look sad, I'm going to go back through the logbook and see if I skipped a scheduled change.
After getting a new air filter, plugs and valve adjustment it does afterfire less, but it still does it.
I found no evidence of exhaust leaks, and opted not to change gaskets / nuts.
My benefactor Aaron and I tinkered with Guzzi Diag, and after a couple of false starts got the laptop and software to admit that the Bassa did indeed have a .bin file running on the P15, and we saved it to the laptop and my thumb drive. I also have a map Beetle provided - I'm thinking I need to acquire a viewer that will allow me to compare the two files and see what kind of deltas there are, if only for educational purposes.
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Did you load the Beetle map?
Tom
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We did not load the Beetle Map - the day was running short, the mosquitos were running sharp, and I wanted to collect some data on the bike's behaviour for a few days/miles with the changes I had just made.
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Thanks Tom - that makes sense. Are you saying that 40mpg is about average for the newer bikes with large windscreens and luggage?
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When I asked my local Guzzi guy if I was getting good or bad mileage, he said that 40 mpg is about right for my bikes and riding style. I was told about a guy that got like 65 or 70 out of an Ambo. I was told the bike was stripped to bare stock and he was laying on the tank, I don't remember the speed, but I think it was freeway. I think freeway at about that time was 55mph?
Like I mentioned, I feel that if I had open hwy's that I could cruise along at let's say 55mph without stopping at traffic lights seemingly every block, I'm pretty sure I could get near 50mpg.
What mileage do any of you guys get on a Loop or EV bike? Maybe this will help Norm and I'm curious.
Tom
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Norm, did your friend say what the CO trim is at?
Tom
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Norm, did your friend say what the CO trim is at?
Tom
i think your on to something.. I just yesterday tweeked the trim on a friends Coppa moved it to +30 and he reported the bucking and popping stopped.
This with the techno research software, boy is it slow to act but with patience we got the change made.BTW the Coppa had the race ECM and pipes, sounded wonderful.
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I'm thinking I need to acquire a viewer that will allow me to compare the two files and see what kind of deltas there are, if only for educational purposes.
You can use TunerPro to view the bin files. I was easily able to get out of my knowledge depth when I ventured in here.
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I'm with Tom & foto here.
Check the CO trim.
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You can use TunerPro to view the bin files. I was easily able to get out of my knowledge depth when I ventured in here.
I'm getting out of my knowledge depth just reading this thread.
[Beetle] said: " I'm with Tom & foto here. Check the CO trim. "
Is that a setting that can only be tweaked via laptop interface, or a mechanical adjustable on the bike itself ?
And, ELI5 (Explain Like I'm 5) if you can please, why would CO trim be a thing?
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CO trim on the 15M is via GuzziDiag.
Each increment of +/- 1 adds or subtracts time to the real-time injector pulse.
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On the 15M the CO trim is set through an 'Actor' in Guzzidiag after the bike has warmed up to at least 60 or 80 (I forget) deg centigrade.
Beetle, I think you are talking about the P8 ECU.
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You're right. Brain fart. Fixed. :embarrassed:
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Thank you both. :bow:
So, this sounds as though the duration period, being digitally controlled, would nominally be a constant.
Is there a nominal that the actual can have drifted away from, or does it come to affect performance because mechanical parameters of the injection system or other system influences changed the environment by wear and tear ?
Given my afterfiring, does that indicate that the increment experiment should be minus (-) ?
Oh boy ... I did a l i t t l e search and found this. https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19652-v11-ecu-15rc-vs-15m/
I'm beginning to think I'm with the guy who said " give me a big carb and CDI " or words to that effect.
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When I was trying to fix the mess of a bike that I bought. I had issues with "pinging". With a stock map from an Australian bike (could have been the US map as well??) I needed to adjust the CO trim to completely get rid of the ping. I think I went to ABOUT +20, I need to look it up in my records to be sure. I am sure that it was not minus an amount.
You need to have your guy come by again and check the CO trim. It's easily adjusted and if you take lets say 30-40 + or - swings from zero and wait a moment, the bike will react and idle better or worse. It doesn't happen instantly, it takes a few moments. Once you have found a sweet spot on a number and the bike is idling fine, ride and see what happens. Then adjust as needed 5-10 at a time.
Looking at maps with TunerPro is way over my head as well. The graphs look pretty, but I'm fairly lost as to what they are telling me. Unless your turning a lambda off on a 15rc?, I wouldn't mess with it unless you have a desire to become Beetle!
Tom
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We have played around with CO trim a fair amount on the V11S forum. The general consensus is around zero is good. Many have found values as high as -80 (!) when looking for the cause of lean stumbles, hiccups, etc. Surprise surprise. :smiley:
That said when I checked the Mighty Scura it was plus 40. (!) This bike was dyno tuned by someone that knew what they were doing many years ago, and has a Power Commander. No telling what was done, but it runs fine and gets acceptable fuel economy. (High 30s to low 40s depending on the loud handle, temp, and phases of the moon.)
I set it to zero, and it was really lean. Moved it to +20, still lean. Back to +40. I know.. not normal, but it is what works for this bike.
Back when I had the Centauro, there was a trim pot on the computer. It had a travel from 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock. 8 would return mileage in the high 20s/low 30s, 4 would make it unridable from leanness. I *think* the CO trim works much like this.
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Don't know jack about the Guzzi electric carbs setup but on my beemer if the timing isn't close to spot on it will pop as you describe.
Maybe its just a cultural thing??
:-)