Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: pete roper on August 29, 2019, 08:45:04 PM
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Audace man came to pick up his bike today and as we were chatting he said he thought it was good that the footbrake operated both the front left and rear brakes but he thought they were a bit ineffectual and he always found himself having to use the *Other* front disc as the ABS was always cutting in!
I think I must of made some sort of gurgling noise as he looked at me oddly and asked what was wrong? 'His Mate', (There is always somebody's f*#$ing 'Mate'!) had told him that all Guzzis had linked brakes and he should try to only use the pedal! Anyway I was able to set him straight on that. The same 'Mate' also told him to blow the tyres up to "What it sez on the side"...........
Anyway without ABS he would of been on his arse months ago and now would be bagging out Guzzis for their unsafe linked brakes!
Arrrrgh!
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Heard a Goldwing rider tell a kid buying a motorbike to never use the front brake . I asked him if he realized his 1800 Wing had linked brakes , blank stare in return . What people don't know about their own motorbikes is scary mate .
Dusty
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'His Mate', (There is always somebody's f*#$ing 'Mate'!) had told him that all Guzzis had linked brakes and he should try to only use the pedal.
Arrrrgh!
He’s the personification of the old adage..
“With friends like him..
Who needs enemas...”
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Heard a Goldwing rider tell a kid buying a motorbike to never use the front brake.....
Dusty
A few years ago I had the rare experience of meeting another Guzzi rider at a fast food stop. He was even older than I am and had an old looper about as old. I had just started riding and I told him about a couple of recent slow speed drops due to my applying the front brake in a panic while turning at parking-lot speed (I don't do that anymore). He advised me to NEVER use the front brake and said he hasn't used his in years! I of course know better, but, on the other hand, both he and his ancient bike were still alive after decades of riding reportedly without using his front brake.
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I'm certain we all gag on the exception:
The hugely raked out fork; complete with high, springy bars and a bicycle wheel . . . . Plus, the mess in the back.
The good part is. They (except for an occasional Interstate), don't ride the roads I ride. R3~
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The biggest safety feature on a vehicle . Why would you want to know how to use those !
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My linked brakes on my 98 EV prevented a crash. For some reason I glanced to the right to look at something. Seconds later I looked forward. A Van had come to a stop and It seemed I was going to rear end him. Instantly hammered the front brake and the linked brakes as in a panic stop. I was amazed, no skid just a perfectly controlled efficient stop. Had I skidded the rear tire I would have hit the van. I'M A BELIEVER! Real ABS is even better. Yamaha FJR with ABS has the best brakes I'm ever encountered.
I developed my braking techniques on old Triumph's. By todays standards their brakes were terrible. In order to be able to stop quickly both front and rear brakes were required. So for all stops I developed a habit to use both except very low speed while in a turn or slow in a turn with sand or other hazards. Seems this works well regardless of the brake system installed.
Bill
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A few years ago I had the rare experience of meeting another Guzzi rider at a fast food stop. He was even older than I am and had an old looper about as old. I had just started riding and I told him about a couple of recent slow speed drops due to my applying the front brake in a panic while turning at parking-lot speed (I don't do that anymore). He advised me to NEVER use the front brake and said he hasn't used his in years! I of course know better, but, on the other hand, both he and his ancient bike were still alive after decades of riding reportedly without using his front brake.
Agh! I ride a '70 Ambo and I cannot even imagine trying to stop that thing with only the rear brake (the sidecar adds a lot of additional mass, but still).
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Audace man came to pick up his bike today and as we were chatting he said he thought it was good that the footbrake operated both the front left and rear brakes but he thought they were a bit ineffectual and he always found himself having to use the *Other* front disc as the ABS was always cutting in!
I think I must of made some sort of gurgling noise as he looked at me oddly and asked what was wrong? 'His Mate', (There is always somebody's f*#$ing 'Mate'!) had told him that all Guzzis had linked brakes and he should try to only use the pedal! Anyway I was able to set him straight on that. The same 'Mate' also told him to blow the tyres up to "What it sez on the side"...........
Anyway without ABS he would of been on his arse months ago and now would be bagging out Guzzis for their unsafe linked brakes!
Arrrrgh!
Hey Pete
I’m on the road so no bike in front of me to look at. 2016 Eldorado. I’m fairly certain I’ve read that it’s fitted with linked brakes- rear plus one front caliper. The Op manual for California appears to refer to independent systems. Know which it is?
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Hey Pete
I’m on the road so no bike in front of me to look at. 2016 Eldorado. I’m fairly certain I’ve read that it’s fitted with linked brakes- rear plus one front caliper. The Op manual for California appears to refer to independent systems. Know which it is?
I don't know where you think you read that but Google seems to disagree. I can't find anything where a 1400 and brakes are talked about that mentions them being linked. The only times linked brakes are mentioned the articles specifically say that they are not linked on the 1400s.
That and as you say the owners manual for the first 1400's says they are independent. Oh and the Guzzi website doesn't mention anything about linked brakes under specs.
More importantly Pete's got a ton of experience even with this late model stuff and I can't believe he'd have missed that.
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Hey Pete
I’m on the road so no bike in front of me to look at. 2016 Eldorado. I’m fairly certain I’ve read that it’s fitted with linked brakes- rear plus one front caliper. The Op manual for California appears to refer to independent systems. Know which it is?
I've never seen anything to indicate that any 1400 had linked brakes. Would've been scratched off the list. Not a fan.... I wouldnt mind it on the 'collectible' occasional rider kept in original condition, but not as a daily rider. My main opposition to this type of 'innovation' is that introduces a lackbof uniformity for a critical system. Im just glad that guy didn't wreck.
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A few years ago I had the rare experience of meeting another Guzzi rider at a fast food stop. He was even older than I am and had an old looper about as old. I had just started riding and I told him about a couple of recent slow speed drops due to my applying the front brake in a panic while turning at parking-lot speed (I don't do that anymore). He advised me to NEVER use the front brake and said he hasn't used his in years! I of course know better, but, on the other hand, both he and his ancient bike were still alive after decades of riding reportedly without using his front brake.
I dont use my front brake at parking lot or slow (under 10-15 mph). Rear only for this reason. But once moving, I primarily use front and then add only enough rear to keep chassis balanced.
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My linked brakes on my 98 EV prevented a crash. For some reason I glanced to the right to look at something. Seconds later I looked forward. A Van had come to a stop and It seemed I was going to rear end him. Instantly hammered the front brake and the linked brakes as in a panic stop. I was amazed, no skid just a perfectly controlled efficient stop. Had I skidded the rear tire I would have hit the van. I'M A BELIEVER! Real ABS is even better. Yamaha FJR with ABS has the best brakes I'm ever encountered.
I developed my braking techniques on old Triumph's. By todays standards their brakes were terrible. In order to be able to stop quickly both front and rear brakes were required. So for all stops I developed a habit to use both except very low speed while in a turn or slow in a turn with sand or other hazards. Seems this works well regardless of the brake system installed.
Bill
I totally agree Bill. All us older guys who have ridden for decades take a lot of pride in acquired motorcycling skills such as being able to control quick stops utilizing both breaks. Yes muscle memory usually takes over in a panic situation however that being said, Conditions such as age, health, frame of mind etc can effect our muscles memory and instinctive actions. Truth is, no one knows how they will react in a sudden panic situation, like a vehicle pulling out in front of a biker or a sudden stopped vehicle in front of the bike rider. I use to be skeptical of the need for this feature as well as Abs systems, not any more. It would take a fool to deny the fact that modern technology is far more superior than human capabilities.
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There has not been Guzzi made since the very last 1100 California rolled off the line.
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I totally agree Bill. All us older guys who have ridden for decades take a lot of pride in acquired motorcycling skills such as being able to control quick stops utilizing both breaks. Yes muscle memory usually takes over in a panic situation however that being said, Conditions such as age, health, frame of mind etc can effect our muscles memory and instinctive actions. Truth is, no one knows how they will react in a sudden panic situation, like a vehicle pulling out in front of a biker or a sudden stopped vehicle in front of the bike rider. I use to be skeptical of the need for this feature as well as Abs systems, not any more. It would take a fool to deny the fact that modern technology is far more superior than human capabilities.
It would equally take a fool to deny that some people value simplicity from which they will certainly benefit over costly, life limited complexity from which they quite likely will not benefit... and that they have every right to exercise their judgement.
Humans have BTW proven to actually have judgement, modern technology is happily silent on that matter.
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It would equally take a fool to deny that some people value simplicity from which they will certainly benefit over costly, life limited complexity from which they quite likely will not benefit... and that they have every right to exercise their judgement.
Humans have BTW proven to actually have judgement, modern technology is happily silent on that matter.
Sir, I agree 100% that you have the right to exercise your own choices and judgment and we live and die with our choices. I hope my response didn’t offend, if so I apologize. I have personally witnessed a couple of my ole buddies go down on rain slick roads while riding in the mountains when they hit their breaks, one in a curve and one crossing railroad tracks in a curve,on non ABS bikes. I think ABS may would have prevented both accidents.
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I don't know where you think you read that but Google seems to disagree. I can't find anything where a 1400 and brakes are talked about that mentions them being linked. The only times linked brakes are mentioned the articles specifically say that they are not linked on the 1400s.
That and as you say the owners manual for the first 1400's says they are independent. Oh and the Guzzi website doesn't mention anything about linked brakes under specs.
More importantly Pete's got a ton of experience even with this late model stuff and I can't believe he'd have missed that.
Wasn’t implying that Pete missed anything. Just a question to a guy I figured would know. I’ll take ABS all day but happy to have independent front and rear systems. I read a lot of reviews and it either was mentioned in one or I’m mixing it up with another machine
Except for low speed maneuvers I always apply front and rear to develop the muscle memory called upon in emergency situations. I enjoy practicing police motorman low speed skills which requires dragging the rear without front application
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Cali 14’s don’t have linked brakes. End of story.
FWIW my Griso and Mana have independent systems and no ABS, my Stelvio has independent systems and ABS. My Cali 1100 has no ABS but linked brakes.
They all stop. Only time I’ve had ABS kick in was on slick gravel but I ride like the grandfather of the oldest man in the world!
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I used to be reluctant about abs on bikes and linked brakes too. I have to say that the electronically linked Brembos on my current Harley have won me over.
They link and balance braking front-to-rear, but only if you initiate braking at 35+ mph. Below that speed they remain independent.
You can feel them balancing if you're lazy or not successfully doing that yourself. In my case it's generally that I've under-applied the rear and I feel the pedal drop away from my foot slightly for just a split second.
But I'm not sure I would have been happy with the old mechanically linked system on the Cali 1100 models. And really with abs on the 1400s I wouldn't think the "need" for linked brakes was there, at least for any rider who used both. I guess with the stereotypical Harley crowd the "need" was/is greater.
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Regardless of the braking system fitted how many riders take the trouble to test and learn how their brakes perform. When I change bikes or even new pads I find a quite road and test the braking ability so if the worst happens I've a good idea of the limits available. Because hopefully there are long periods between emergency braking events the exercise is repeated every few months.
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The linked brakes were always bashed by the self proclaimed experts that reviewed them in the media.These assholes who had no experience riding Guzzis probably cost Guzzi a lot of sales leading to Guzzi dropping one of the best safety innovations ever.
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I don't use the brakes much. Sometimes I drag my feet.
Wore out three horns already.
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I don't use the brakes much. Sometimes I drag my feet.
Wore out three horns already.
:smiley: :thumb:
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As yet, I've never had a bike with ABS. All my older bikes commonly had such crappy, relatively low-powered brakes with which lockup was pretty unlikely. Except, of course, in slippery, low traction conditions. The precise situation where ABS is most beneficial.
If they're anything at all like my cars', then ABS is a life-saver, only more so given the relative lack of stability inherent with two-wheeled vehicles.
Some of my more "modern" bikes (Husky Nudas, Aprilia RSV1000R) have had brakes so powerful, that ABS should've been fitted. One in particular is an extremely lightweight bike with racing monoblocs, which are heart-stoppingly powerful, and potentially lethal on anything less controlled than a racetrack.
ABS should be mandatory fitment on any vehicle commonly used on public roads. In fact, I think in Australia it already is....
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ABS should be mandatory fitment on any vehicle commonly used on public roads. In fact, I think in Australia it already is....
In Europe it is mandatory.
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Hey Pete
I’m on the road so no bike in front of me to look at. 2016 Eldorado. I’m fairly certain I’ve read that it’s fitted with linked brakes- rear plus one front caliper. The Op manual for California appears to refer to independent systems. Know which it is?
Already answered but I'll go further.
Technically, integrated should be the correct terminology rather than linked. The Cali series and others UNTIL the 1400, had integrated brakes.
Guzzi, when using ABS are not integrated. This includes the 1400 line and others including newer Stelvio's.
My Stelvio, an '09 has neither. Fronts on hand lever and rear on foot lever. Same with the '03 LeMans I had. I'm not sure where other CARC bikes fall in here. (with/without)
One could argue that different methods might be employed in using, (taking advantage), of different types of braking systems. At the very least, an understanding of what is underneath you at the moment and how it may react to input would be prudent.
John Henry
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Am now the proud owner and rider of a Guzzi with linked brakes , they just work .
Dusty
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The problems with Guzzi style linked brakes are:
1) Virtually any bike with powerful brakes can lift the rear wheel under hard braking, making it better not to be applying the rear brake under very hard braking. On my sport bikes the rear brake is therefore so weak by design that you can hardly feel its effect. The rear brake comes into play mostly on gravel roads etc where nothing close to hard braking is possible due to limited traction.
2) With Guzzi style linked brakes you are forced to use two controls instead of one to access useful braking power. Even under moderate braking, a large percentage of the braking force on a 1980s-on motorcycle is from the front brakes. There is no reason to split the majority of the bike’s braking power into two separate controls.
The main advantage of Guzzi style linked brakes, in period, was to adapt the system to riders who had never ridden bikes with good brakes, who relied by habit on the foot brake and tended as a result to hit things. Making the foot brake more powerful was from that point of view a good thing, because these riders weren’t going to use the hand brake. The system helped them stop a little better in spite of poorly adapted skills.
My ideal braking system is powerful cast iron double disks on the front wheel and a well engineered cable operated drum on the back. The rear drum on my R100GS works as well as a disk for the application, and has required no maintenance for 100K miles. I would obviously not want integrated brakes (I have removed the system from a couple of Guzzis) and ABS is not something I would choose to buy based on my assessment of its cost/maintenance issues versus its potential benefits to me.
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Tusayn wrote:
"The main advantage of Guzzi style linked brakes, in period, was to adapt the system to riders who had never ridden bikes with good brakes, who relied by habit on the foot brake and tended as a result to hit things."
However you can use the pedal and the hand brake together on the Guzzi type linked system that will produce adequate braking for sure. Its just for lean angles that are steep you have a problem of dragging you right foot in tight right hand corners..... which is a PITA....
Pretty much the way I feel as well. I use the front for almost all my riding and my rear pads will last 100K or more.
However when really cooking or a track day I use both, but that's for hauling down from triple digit speeds in many cases.
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The problems with Guzzi style linked brakes are:
1) Virtually any bike with powerful brakes can lift the rear wheel under hard braking, making it better not to be applying the rear brake under very hard braking. On my sport bikes the rear brake is therefore so weak by design that you can hardly feel its effect. The rear brake comes into play mostly on gravel roads etc where nothing close to hard braking is possible due to limited traction.
2) With Guzzi style linked brakes you are forced to use two controls instead of one to access useful braking power. Even under moderate braking, a large percentage of the braking force on a 1980s-on motorcycle is from the front brakes. There is no reason to split the majority of the bike’s braking power into two separate controls.
The main advantage of Guzzi style linked brakes, in period, was to adapt the system to riders who had never ridden bikes with good brakes, who relied by habit on the foot brake and tended as a result to hit things. Making the foot brake more powerful was from that point of view a good thing, because these riders weren’t going to use the hand brake. The system helped them stop a little better in spite of poorly adapted skills.
My ideal braking system is powerful cast iron double disks on the front wheel and a well engineered cable operated drum on the back. The rear drum on my R100GS works as well as a disk for the application, and has required no maintenance for 100K miles. I would obviously not want integrated brakes (I have removed the system from a couple of Guzzis) and ABS is not something I would choose to buy based on my assessment of its cost/maintenance issues versus its potential benefits to me.
Uh , getting the rear wheel off the ground on a linked brake Guzzi is virtually impossible .
As for your second assertion , come down to the Okie and chase us down the Talimena Drive , if you lean over far enough to actually get a peg down and can prove it , I'll buy you a steak dinner .
Dusty
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Dusty, I have dragged pegs and other stuff on my Guzzis hundreds to thousands of times and oddly enough it has never required a trip to Oklahoma. Nor do I eat steak. Thanks anyway.
The only connection between dragging stuff and linked brakes might be that without them you can more readily put your right toe on the peg to avoid damage to the toe of your boots (mine tend to die that way regardless, in the end) Also your braking point at corner entry is probably easier to control when only your hand is involved.
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I've kinda a lost what this is all about.
1. Agree with Dusty <shrug> yes, those California linked brakes work quite well.
2. I have ABS on my Ducati. Incredible. I've only had them kick in a couple of times but yes, the ABS works fine. The brakes and handling OTOH are just fantastic.
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My Griso 8V does not have ABS or Linked brakes. The only bike I ever had that had linked brakes was my first one, a Guzzi V50. I do wish my Griso had ABS, greatest invention ever. Like Pete mentioned in the original post: it saved that guys butt. Pete is correct, ABS is great!
I was taught that the front brake does the most stopping power (it is physics) so in a hard stop just use the front. Locking up the rear could be dangerous...At least that is what I was taught...could be all wrong but used the front only a few times to stop VERY quickly and it worked...
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I think if you read Pete’s original post, you may smell the inference that..
For the guy in question, ABS is great because it is masking an underlying level of non proficiency.
Unless the man himself says otherwise, that’s where his comment sits for me.
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the front brake does the most stopping power (it is physics) so in a hard stop just use the front. Locking up the rear could be dangerous...At least that is what I was taught...could be all wrong but used the front only a few times to stop VERY quickly and it worked...
The rear is good for low speed maneuvering . Worthless as a STOPPING TOOL . Just Physics plain and simple ! :wink:
I don't ever want "Linked brakes" heck - the rear tire wears out soon enough as it is ! :laugh:
ABS , is a life-saver in my experience . It helps keep the rear tire on the ground ! :smiley:
Sometimes we all need to do a quick STOP ! :embarrassed:
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OldBike 54
I've enjoyed your Talimena Drive twice already , its a twin to the road from Tellico Plains Tn. to Robbinsville NC. known as the Cherohala Skyway.
I'll collect that Steak Dinner if ever we meet . :cool: and even buy you one in return ! :smiley:
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Point of order. Though the front does most of the work the rear contributes and it does so more and more on longer and heavier bikes like the Cali 1400 or your typical Harley.
I believe most riding schools of thought teach to initiate braking with both (especially since while still under power there's the more weight/force on the rear than at most any other time) and then ease off the rear brake as the weight shifts forward.
But try braking a large/long/heavy bike without the rear and then with it also and you will likely feel the difference.
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I believe most riding schools of thought teach to initiate braking with both (especially since while still under power there's the more weight/force on the rear than at most any other time) and then ease off the rear brake as the weight shifts forward.
Dang! I'm agreeing with Kev. :grin:
Dusty, I need to find a picture of Todd Egan's Jackal from back in the day. Both foot pegs were ground down to about 1-1 1/2" long. :shocked: :smiley:
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OldBike 54
I've enjoyed your Talimena Drive twice already , its a twin to the road from Tellico Plains Tn. to Robbinsville NC. known as the Cherohala Skyway.
I'll collect that Steak Dinner if ever we meet . :cool: and even buy you one in return ! :smiley:
The Skyway is a much faster, smoother and more manicured road than the Drive.
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Dang! I'm agreeing with Kev. :grin:
Dusty, I need to find a picture of Todd Egan's Jackal from back in the day. Both foot pegs were ground down to about 1-1 1/2" long. :shocked: :smiley:
Oh I am perfectly capable of dragging a footpeg , but at 90 MPH on the street I'll pass . As Nick Ienatsch says , the idea is to go fast using as little lean angle as possible .
Dusty
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I completed a law enforcement motorcycle training program in the early ‘80s. They said that among experienced riders most overbrake the rear and under brake the front in a full on panic stop. It’s been my belief that the linked brake system was designed to counter this. I still practice my panic stops but do notice this tendency when I’m trying to stop before crashing into an unexpected obstacle even after trying to get my muscle memory developed so that it works the way it should. I’ve unlinked the brakes on the sidecar tug because I wanted to use them to set the suspension when cornering.
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Oh I am perfectly capable of dragging a footpeg , but at 90 MPH on the street I'll pass . As Nick Ienatsch says , the idea is to go fast using as little lean angle as possible .
Dusty
That's the difference between "normal" twisties and canyon roads. On the SoCal canyon roads, you can drag a peg at 30 and have a really good time doing it. :smiley: I don't like to go fast enough for it to be challenging on "fast" roads like the Cherohala..
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That's the difference between "normal" twisties and canyon roads. On the SoCal canyon roads, you can drag a peg at 30 and have a really good time doing it. :smiley: I don't like to go fast enough for it to be challenging on "fast" roads like the Cherohala..
Yeah , that's kinda the point . We have some roads just a few miles East of here that are like a canyon road , and riding them at 30 MPH is a challenge , but on a high speed road like the Talimena Drive it's a different story .
About braking styles , on the street I really prefer to get 99% of the braking done before really tipping in , there is only so much traction available , and braking forces use a considerable amount of that . Slow in , fast out .
Dusty
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On non-linked bikes I 'lead' with the rear brake - applying it first to settle the bike and reduce the front's tendency to dive, then apply the front to do most of the work. Read that some Eyetalian racer (Lucchinelli?) advised someone to do it that way during a track school. Also thought that the later Guzzi linked brakes with proportioning valve accomplished the same thing.
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the last of the "integrated brakes" Guzzis was the Californias in 2011/2012.
None of the CARC bikes were integrated. (Breva 1100, Griso, Stelvio, Norge)
None of the Spine Frame bikes were integrated. (Daytona, Sport 1100, V11 Sport, V11 LeMans, Centauro)
none of the 2009 -up V7/V9 smallblocks are integrated. (V7 Classic, V7 Racer, et al)
none of the California 1400s are integrated. (Audace, Eldorado, Touring, Custom, MGX21)
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I completed a law enforcement motorcycle training program in the early ‘80s. They said that among experienced riders most overbrake the rear and under brake the front in a full on panic stop. It’s been my belief that the linked brake system was designed to counter this. I still practice my panic stops but do notice this tendency when I’m trying to stop before crashing into an unexpected obstacle even after trying to get my muscle memory developed so that it works the way it should. I’ve unlinked the brakes on the sidecar tug because I wanted to use them to set the suspension when cornering.
When I went through motor officer training school the first exercise we had to do was bring the bike (78 Harley Electra glide) to a full front brake stop from 50 mph. The instructor told us the most important lesson of the two week course was that you can’t stop properly without the front brakes. The rest of the day was spent learning the situations where the full front brakes could not be use, dirt, gravel, wet slick surfaces etc. I always apply the front brake first then ease into the back.