Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: s1120 on September 13, 2019, 01:29:50 PM
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OK, so Ive been slowly getting the tune close on my 02 cali stone, and im getting close.. Its still not right... but getting closer. I put in a new set of plugs, and went for a ride.. Not a true plug chop. but I figured I would get a idea how its running. So its been many years since my drag racing days so its been ages since I have read plugs. So these are what they look like. About 10 miles of normal back road running. No top speed, and no long idle time. Shut right off when I pulled in. So im a little baffled.. Vary light and ashy like a lean mix at the electrodes, but sooty, and some glazed spots around the outside. What do you tuning pros think?
(https://i.ibb.co/mbVfQCn/plug.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbVfQCn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jdr4TzJ/plug2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jdr4TzJ)
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(https://i.ibb.co/t3JzJHk/spark-plug-lean-rich-optimal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3JzJHk)
Looks pretty normal to me, the splatter you get is sometimes the additives in the fuel you buy. My$.02
Paul B :boozing:
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I'd say that looks pretty normal.
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Too rich for part trottle in my opinion....My stone age 79 Triumph 750 with well tuned Mikuni flatslides plugs look like this after about 25 miles of back road riding, not a clean plug chop...The plugs look the same on the 2001 Sportster...The 96 Ducati 900 M plugs are slightly off white....
There's a lot to see here..the ground strap is shy of a 2/3 heat color chage, it's slightly cold..The shell shows some carbon as it should.Looking deep down inside with a otoscope for the carbon ring on the center insulator..And deep inside on the insular look for tiny black dots that are the first signs of detonation..As said modern fuels do color plugs different. Faster burn combustion chambers may keep the plugs clean..( the Triumph engine is modified for a faster burn)
(https://i.imgur.com/76vqPIHm.jpg)
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Thanks for the thoughts guys. Shes still a little 'off" so Im just trying to do some diag before winter comes. I got this with intake, and exoust mods, and it ran pretty bad when I got it. this year has been a shakedown cruze. its getting a lot closer though. Still a little stumble and popping back on decal. Also the engine braking in decel is pretty extreme.. But Im getting there..
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Try about 25 miles at the speeds you usually ride at.. cut the engine and coast into drive or garage...They don't took all that bad...Might be the mods...Is that injection?
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Try about 25 miles at the speeds you usually ride at.. cut the engine and coast into drive or garage...They don't took all that bad...Might be the mods...Is that injection?
Ill try that if I can get it out tomorrow. Sunday im off to the rally in Sturbridge, so we will see. It is FI. Beatle sent me a few maps, and got it close enough that I can ride the thing. Im slowly getting closer, and knowing the plugs are at least in the ball park.. Makes me feel a little better. I have a buddy that might have a air/fuel meter, so if he finds it, maybe I can get some real world numbers incase something is out to lunch
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Darker than I have seen on any of my bikes, excluding 2 strokes.
https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/read-spark-plug
What heat range are you using?
https://www.ngkntk.in/ngk-technology/importance-of-heat-range/
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Different results for different machines. Comparing apples and oranges. Your plugs look totally normal (maybe better than normal) for a fuel injected Tonti frame. Try looking at the plugs after 30K-40K! I have two 98EV's over 100K each. My plugs look a lot worse than that and never skip a beat. My plug preference for years is here:
http://www.guzzipower.com/Sparkplug-pehayes.html (http://www.guzzipower.com/Sparkplug-pehayes.html)
Google for vendors.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Im running the stock plug. NGK BPR6ES When I first got the bike I installed the non resister BP6ES, and didn't see a running difference at all. I replaced those [after only 2k miles] because they were pretty fouled after all the tuning I have done to the bike getting it to this point. It really ran poor when I got it.
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It looks a little rich, but that isn't a terrible thing for an air-cooled engine. It runs cooler. It's the popping on decel that has me a little stumped. That normally means lean mapping in the lower rpm ranges. Perhaps that is where you should concentrate your efforts. My Vintage was a handful before I got the closed loop (low rpm) portion of the FI mapping recalibrated. The ethanol laced gasoline doesn't help, as E10 produces about a 3.5% leaner mixture. Either enlist Beetle's assistance or get a re-flash from Guzzi-Tech.
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(https://i.ibb.co/t3JzJHk/spark-plug-lean-rich-optimal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3JzJHk)
Looks pretty normal to me, the splatter you get is sometimes the additives in the fuel you buy. My$.02
Paul B :boozing:
based on your photo, I guess mine have been a little rich on my Carb Sport 1100...
(https://i.ibb.co/0M16nPk/20150921-164157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0M16nPk)
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Rocker, that's a bit greasy...
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It looks a little rich, but that isn't a terrible thing for an air-cooled engine. It runs cooler. It's the popping on decel that has me a little stumped. That normally means lean mapping in the lower rpm ranges. Perhaps that is where you should concentrate your efforts. My Vintage was a handful before I got the closed loop (low rpm) portion of the FI mapping recalibrated. The ethanol laced gasoline doesn't help, as E10 produces about a 3.5% leaner mixture. Either enlist Beetle's assistance or get a re-flash from Guzzi-Tech.
Beetle got me to this far by sending a few maps to try. As I said... its a LOT better then it was when I got it. this year im trying to figure out where, its acting up, and what needs to be changed to get it right.. Baby steps. A past owner added a open airbox lid, FBF crossover, and Lafrancia mufflers.. the TPS was WAYYY out of whack so my guess was that was the only "tuning" done at that time... and it showed. A few different maps, and adding a stock airbox lid got me close.. Might find some stock mufflers because its pretty loud... but it sounds SOOOO good!! And yes.. it seems mostly in the lower RPM/throttle openings. Low speed cruse in the 30mph range, and trailing throttle engine braking is pretty insane!!! But my last daily riders 10 years ago were a UJM 4 cyl, and a old 2 stroke RD... so that part may just be me.
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You might try with Guzzidiag adjusting the CO up a bit. My EVT likes +20 if I remember right. Just a thought to cut down on the popping.
Tom
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based on your photo, I guess mine have been a little rich on my Carb Sport 1100...
(https://i.ibb.co/0M16nPk/20150921-164157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0M16nPk)
I wouldn’t even be brave enough to show my 1100 sport plugs on here.
They are always dark and oily looking.
12 years and 50,000 km of use and no real oil use with around 18km per litre fuel usage.
The bike always runs great and I don’t chug it around.
It always shocks me when I see them.
So I chuck them in the bin and put new ones in.
The other Guzzis I have owned have had lovely plug colour.
Cheers, voncrump
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based on your photo, I guess mine have been a little rich on my Carb Sport 1100...
Rocker and Voncrump, All things being equal, (minimal short trips,good gas etc) you could always go up one step hotter , run 'em for a thousand miles and see what they look like.
Paul B :boozing:
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I've been told that if using fuel with ethanol will not give the same reading on a plug chop as when using straight gasoline.
Best way would probably weld in a bung an run a A/F meter and see the state of the fueling truly is.
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I've been told that if using fuel with ethanol will not give the same reading on a plug chop as when using straight gasoline.
Best way would probably weld in a bung an run a A/F meter and see the state of the fueling truly is.
I do run non E fuel.
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Rocker, that's a bit greasy...
That was after about 1500 miles riding at elevation in Colorado!
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I got a nice long run out to Sturbridge yesterday, and she got a good thrashing.. Pulled the plugs after I got home, and looks like they tell a slightly different story. Left side seems to be running pretty lean. Right side a little rich. Any thoughts?? What could cause the difference? Anything common to look at?
(https://i.ibb.co/x3VkhzM/plug3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x3VkhzM)
(https://i.ibb.co/kyx0Hjr/plug4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kyx0Hjr)
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Manifold rubber boot leak?? Just a thought.
Tom
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Without having the plug in my hand..The upper one looks ok for a hard run if you're using non ethanol fuel.. But the ground strap is discolored completley ? The lower run shows some mixture problems that might be caused by other factors...It's injected with one throttle body or two?
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Without having the plug in my hand..The upper one looks ok for a hard run if you're using non ethanol fuel.. But the ground strap is discolored completley ? The lower run shows some mixture problems that might be caused by other factors...It's injected with one throttle body or two?
Yes the top one has a discolored electrode. That might be just the carbon from the past run burning off.
It is injected and it has two TB, and injectors.
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Manifold rubber boot leak?? Just a thought.
Tom
The manifolds appear to be good. Nice and solid, no cracking. I also made sure they were tight. Now that does make me think of something though. This bike has the canister still It has the vac line to each manifold, going to a tee, and back to the valve on the canister. Im wondering if something there is causing the issues. Maybe ditching that might be a good idea.
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You might want to look at the injectors if all else seems ok...A few shades is one thing but that's a lot of difference between the two plugs...
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OK, so digging in a little more.. I checked the intake rubbers well last night. They are great on the parts you can see... but a mirror, and flashlight shows some dryrot on the inner side. I could not get it to run different when moving them around a little.... but they still need to be changed. Also im planning on changing the lug wires. They test out OK, but are looking old, so cant hurt.