Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Spuddy on September 27, 2019, 12:22:23 PM
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I can understand why, when Guzzi introduces '850-900cc' 2 valve models as 'new' technology.
SPUD
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How you doin' Spud?
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The BB doesn't meet emissions anymore. I would like to see a comparison of 850 BB against the new one. Like a LM3 against V85 .
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Do you mean the 1400's?
M
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Because they are heavy .
Dusty
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People keep riding the darn things decades later and never buy a new bike. :thumb: Not good for business.
Nick
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I still think the 1400 is not dead. I expect to see it or a reworked version of it in a new platform soon.
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Because they are heavy .
Dusty
Not if you don’t let them get off balance 😂😂
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Well they haven't entirely.Yet. The Cali 14 is still in production and will likely be the final iteration of the venerable design.
As for the earlier 2 VPC models? They were dropped because they were dirty and uncompetitive in the modern market, as simple as that. No matter how much Guzzisti like them the simple fact remains that they aren't a viable proposition in terms of sales. Their arcane 2V-Hemi head combustion chambers are dirty and inefficient by modern standards and their power-sapping OHV valvetrain meant they had reached a developmental cul-de-sac.
I can see the attraction of something that effectively reached its peak success in about 1977. Back then I was twenty years old and looked a whole lot more attractive too! Like me though the two valve big block got old and obsolete and couldn't keep up with the more vibrant and exciting opposition.
It had a damn good trot! Not many motors can lay claim to having been manufactured for forty five years and even now, like cosmic background radiation that echoes back to the 'Big Bang', there are still detectable similarities between parts of the 1400 motor and that long ago designed V7 of '67! So I suppose you could, at a stretch, say the motor had been in production for 52 years! Perhaps it is time to give it its 'Viking funeral' and wave it on its way. Let's look to the future, no matter how turgid and unimaginative, rather than pining for a return to an age that never was.
Pete
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Because they are heavy .
Dusty
Too dry ?
Dusty
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Because they are heavy .
Dusty
And most owners hate pushing those things around in their garage!
Glad I got one. I'd rather ride 'em than push 'em.
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Yep , too dry :laugh:
Dusty
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Hi Dusty,
At least you didn't say..."Because they are a block, and they are big." :laugh:
Be well,
DougG
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Hi Dusty,
At least you didn't say..."Because they are a block, and they are big." :laugh:
Be well,
DougG
That would just be silly :laugh:
Dusty
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Guzzi is doing with the small block what Ducati did with their small block in the 80s and 90s, using it to develop a range of engine that is lighter, makes more power and is cheaper to produce than the big block engine it replaces. The stuff about emissions and so on is complete nonsense, as is the completely wrong idea that 2V/cylinder Guzzi engines have higher mechanical losses. Regardless, Piaggio could have made a 2V/cylinder big block engine to fill the same market demand as the V85TT, its just that they figured upgrading the small blocks instead would build better products and better, more profitable business.
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Sorry, we disagree again but it’s not worth arguing about.
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Tusayan is on the money, literally
Cost is it
Having now made v85 ohv and is so cheap to produce v heath robinson high sohc thing, fact that it makes more hp per litre than anything else they’ve tried is a bit of a clue
Of course they could build v85 style top ends and cam / tappets, and stick em on a bb 1200 or 1400 and might but far more logical to have one base engine
But there will be millions of bb engines around forever and for now cheap as chips, no need to cry
Mine will outlive, me, my kids and my grandkids. Perhaps that was the design fault ?
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BMW never gave up on their boxer engine and were prepared to throw money at it to keep it marketable. Piaggio were obviously not prepared to do the same with their 1200cc engine.
When I bought my first CARC bike in 2009 it was at least as good as the 1100/1150 boxer, but BMW soon left it behind. The ill fated 8 valve model crashed sales and the rest is history.
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Really its not like its dead. Ya, you cant buy one new, [unless we are counting the 1400 as one... but that seems to be its own side branch on the family tree..] but really.. there are 40-50 years of the things still out there. You cant buy a 460 ford truck, or a 454 chevy, nor a 440 mopar anymore either. Its not like they are gone... they just moved to a different direction.
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The old Big Blocks are classics. I'm glad I have one. I'm sure Pete tired of the format many years ago, but I haven't. As I've said before, the durn thing has a beating heart. It's one of those bikes that exceeds the sum of it's parts.
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BMW never gave up on their boxer engine and were prepared to throw money at it to keep it marketable. Piaggio were obviously not prepared to do the same with their 1200cc engine.
When I bought my first CARC bike in 2009 it was at least as good as the 1100/1150 boxer, but BMW soon left it behind. The ill fated 8 valve model crashed sales and the rest is history.
I think Guzzi dropped the ball as well , my 2005 Griso 1100 is a a great bike , when they came out with the 1200 8 valve engines , i thought they had thrown down the gauntlet especially towards BMWs boxers , but alas with the early issues with the tappets and then their reluctance to rectify it sooner than later , they threw it all away.
I would think that with even further development of the 1200 would have Guzzi in a far better niche along with the small blocks today ...
IMO the 1200 8 valve could have been a game changer for Guzzi if they had the balls to go for it..
Sad for them and what could have been for Guzzi riders ................... .....
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Interesting comparisons between the MG twin and BMW. BMW wanted badly to give up on the boxer. They knew it would cost too much to keep it competitive with the 4 cyl. competition. So they put their R&D money in the "Flying Brick K-bikes." But the BMW traditionalists wanted little to do with the K bikes. BMW saw the writing on the wall and came out with the 4 valve boxer and have made evolutionary changes to it ever since, up through the "wasserboxers" we have today. Harley Davidson has done the same with their pushrod V twin. They've gone from an iron cylinder hemi-head to the liquid cooled 4 valve head of today. I'm not much of a Moto Guzzi history buff, but I like the torque and pull of the 1200's two or four valve. I'd say it's all about the money. Piaggio was unwilling to spend the $ required to update the big block. But BMW and Harley show us no engine design need be obsolete.
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Guzzi lost the competition with BMW as soon as the R1200R replaced the R1150, and given BMWs ability to share technology, analysis methods, suppliers etc with their cars there was never a chance that Guzzis would be able to compete directly year after year. The best chance was the Griso, but it was never intended to be more than a supporting act. The current strategy of building engines and bikes that successfully promote Guzzis own values of simplicity, serviceability, riding enjoyment and good looks is proving better for sales and brand management than starving on a few sales that fell like crumbs off BMWs infrastructure and investment driven table... Its also producing bikes that are more fun.
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From what I understand the CARC big blocks were discontinued because of their inability to met Euro 4/5 compliance. The 1400 is still around, but not for long unless Guzzi does something different. It sold poorly because the bike was not well presented, marketed or stocked.... Get the darn bikes out of crates and ON TO DEALERS FLOORS...........
IMO between few dealers, and a terrible dealer display, floor plan sales models and ZERO advertising presence, the 1400 withered on the vine. I've had 5-6 Harley guys tel me they saw the intro of the MGX at Sturgis and a couple rode it, but everyone said 'where would I buy it, where would I get it serviced" Let's face it, a LARGE slice of the MC crowd are NOT 'fix it yourself' kinda guys/gals. They LOVE the big shiny dealerships with full service department, cafe, accessories, etc, etc. 3-4 friends would love a new Eldo or Audache, or Touring, but where can they find one? Not everybody wants to by on the internet, rent a trailer and drive 500 miles or do a fly and ride. Many of us here do, and have done all those things, but we are the minority. The general riding public just doesnt.
I was just at AF1 and they were able to find a crated black Eldorado bought at auction for a ridiculous price. Perhaps a bit optimistic, but if a Guzzi dealership had a floor full of 1400's accessible for people to see/ride/compare. When is the last time you saw a line of Griso's or Norge's, or California 1400's lined up? Nope, its the lonely one or two bike sitting at a dealer. But, they will have a line of V7's of various colors, and packages, and now have the V85, and everybody wonders why the big blocks dont sell?
Marketing Image and presence is EVERYTHING when it comes to sales success.... Guzzi has done this to itself. If they are smart, they will revive a KNOWN popular name from the past for the V85 street bike, and supply dealers with quantity similarly as they have for the V7 & V85..... Oh, and having better colors wouldn't hurt either ;-)
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......But there will be millions of bb engines around forever and for now cheap as chips......./quote]
Well, hundreds perhaps...not millions. :cool:
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Guzzi lost the competition with BMW as soon as the R1200R replaced the R1150, and given BMWs ability to share technology, analysis methods, suppliers etc with their cars there was never a chance that Guzzis would be able to compete directly year after year. The best chance was the Griso, but it was never intended to be more than a supporting act. The current strategy of building engines and bikes that successfully promote Guzzis own values of simplicity, serviceability, riding enjoyment and good looks is proving better for sales and brand management than starving on a few sales that fell like crumbs off BMWs infrastructure and investment driven table... Its also producing bikes that are more fun.
The problem with that theory is where do you go after your fun but under powered dream machine gets a bit tired. The obvious option is to get it's big brother, but there isn't one.
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Having left behind the bad marketing vibes and baggage that came with trying to compete directly with BMW year after year, and failing, I’d guess Piaggio will continue to reestablish the brand by extending the V85TT engine, doing what Ducati did and adding higher powered cylinders but using the same less expensive bottom end architecture. It will be a bit more involved than Ducati because they’ll have to add OHC but regardless Guzzi is right now at about 1987 in the Ducati time line. It might take several years. The trick is to offer appealing value and reliability first, then build, not to confront an established player at the top of the market without inertia.
The prices can inch up as the reputation and complexity builds but the good news is that just as with Ducati with e.g. the Monster the well liked lighter, simpler bikes (V85TT and forthcoming variants) will still be there making money at lower cost and likely higher volume.
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So glad to hear that my 1200 2v is no longer competitive and is out of the motorcycle rat race.
Now I can just ride it and enjoy!
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Tusayan, I am really liking that vision you are selling. I have ridden a Breva 750 since April 2004, it's truly part of me, and a V85 powered replacement would see me to the end of my day's I reckon. I have never been obsessed with numbers and bragging. Maybe I just am ego free?
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Tusayan, I am really liking that vision you are selling. I have ridden a Breva 750 since April 2004, it's truly part of me, and a V85 powered replacement would see me to the end of my day's I reckon. I have never been obsessed with numbers and bragging. Maybe I just am ego free?
You're just an under-compensator.
(https://i.ibb.co/p3K2t9L/IMG-0497.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9s6M3r)
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So glad to hear that my 1200 2v is no longer competitive and is out of the motorcycle rat race.
Now I can just ride it and enjoy!
:thumb: :thumb:
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JOHN:
[quoteHow you doin' Spud? ][/quote]
Doin okay. 2 years after knee surgery and it is merely serviceable - enough to take up skiing again. Still on the Stelvio. Too much family stuff to get out to Barber THIS year. So, maybe next. My main riding buddy has retired so I may have a companion. Still puffin on cheap cigars. You?
SPUD