Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: n3303j on November 06, 2019, 08:46:55 PM
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I've got a '76 T3 and it's rated at 68 HP
I've looked at the V9 Bobber and it's rated at 55 HP.
Same displacement.
40 years more modern.
Where did the horsepower go?
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I've got a '76 T3 and it's rated at 68 HP
I've looked at the V9 Bobber and it's rated at 55 HP.
Same displacement.
40 years more modern.
Where did the horsepower go?
1. SAE standards for hp rating was different.
2. The T3 was so far from meeting today's emissions standards it might as well be a chain saw.
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From n3303j:
I've got a '76 T3 and it's rated at 68 HP
Guzzi was wildly optimistic with that claim. I have a 75 T-3 with a modified motor. Mods are as follows:
1,000cc kit
36mm carbs
Port and polished heads opened to match the carbs
Heavy duty valve springs
V-7 Sport cam
K&N cone filters
Former professional mechanic that has ridden it says: "Runs like a stripped ass ape."
Here is the dyno run:
(https://i.ibb.co/wzhLG4W/DSCN0483.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzhLG4W)
GliderJohn
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From n3303j:Guzzi was wildly optimistic with that claim. I have a 75 T-3 with a modified motor. Mods are as follows:
1,000cc kit
36mm carbs
Port and polished heads opened to match the carbs
Heavy duty valve springs
V-7 Sport cam
K&N cone filters
Former professional mechanic that has ridden it says: "Runs like a stripped ass ape."
Here is the dyno run:
(https://i.ibb.co/wzhLG4W/DSCN0483.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzhLG4W)
GliderJohn
Interesting, I wonder how much more you would expect with LeMans Heads & Pistons - prob another 8-10HP or so?
Thats a nasty drop at 3,000rpm, any feedback on whats causing that?
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From 1downSup:
Thats a nasty drop at 3,000rpm, any feedback on whats causing that?
For what ever reason that was an intentional throttle chop according to the dyno operator. Should of asked why. Power is very even through the entire range.
GliderJohn
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1. SAE standards for hp rating was different.
2. The T3 was so far from meeting today's emissions standards it might as well be a chain saw.
I never really understood this. The 850 round fins I had always got 55+ MPG whereas the fuel injected catallactic converter wearing DL650 got 42 MPG.
If a motor uses more fuel to go the same distance does that not create more harmful combustion emission gasses?
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I never really understood this. The 850 round fins I had always got 55+ MPG whereas the fuel injected catallactic converter wearing DL650 got 42 MPG.
If a motor uses more fuel to go the same distance does that not create more harmful combustion emission gasses?
Unfortunately unintended consequences of dumb emissions standards are that they don't actually spec efficiency and they only test for emissions at certain odd points in the power band. So a bike can be inefficient as you want/as polluting as you want at other points. It just has to be choked enough where they test it and that can adversely effect the whole power band.
I will say it seems to have worked out for Guzzi smallblocks, especially the Hemi head ones. They are as efficient as @##$_&$#@.
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I never really understood this. The 850 round fins I had always got 55+ MPG whereas the fuel injected catallactic converter wearing DL650 got 42 MPG.
If a motor uses more fuel to go the same distance does that not create more harmful combustion emission gasses?
Newer engines with three way catalytic convertors require the air fuel mixture to be held very close to stoichiometric, approx 14.5 during part throttle to meet emission standards....Older non emissions engines at part throttle can run as lean as 16-1 at part throttle cruising...yes, uses more fuel but less harmful emissions in some cases..
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I never really understood this. The 850 round fins I had always got 55+ MPG whereas the fuel injected catallactic converter wearing DL650 got 42 MPG.
If a motor uses more fuel to go the same distance does that not create more harmful combustion emission gasses?
I want to know how you are getting 55 mpg out of the 850. I'm averaging 44 one up with plexifairing 3 and 200# rider & camp gear at legal speeds. Runs great, 100K miles, no oil consumption.
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a stock 850 T3 will produce in the region of 45-46 hp at the back wheel.
a typical V7sport is lucky to hit the 50 HP mark.
not sure how that translates to the SAE hp figure,
the difference in 40 years?
the bobber might actually make the claimed Hp , the 850 t3 power output was a marketing statement.
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I want to know how you are getting 55 mpg out of the 850. I'm averaging 44 one up with plexifairing 3 and 200# rider & camp gear at legal speeds. Runs great, 100K miles, no oil consumption.
My 850 Lemans runs pretty strong with its Raceo Heads but I seem to average 42-44 mpg. My friend had a really built LmIII. Bored and stroked to near 1100ccs, Raeco heads, cam (??), 40mm Delortos. He could actually pull Japanese liter sport bikes 50-100 mph. He would consistently get 52-55 mpg. We would be riding together, stop for gas. I would put in 5 gallons and he would only use 4. Go figure.
He was a real perfectionist when it came to jetting.
Pete
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I want to know how you are getting 55 mpg out of the 850. I'm averaging 44 one up with plexifairing 3 and 200# rider & camp gear at legal speeds. Runs great, 100K miles, no oil consumption.
My V700 and all of the Ambassadors I've had have averaged in the 50-52 mpg range, only the Convert has dropped below that to around 43 mpg average.
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I followed Amadeo Castellani's work when he moved to UK, but haven't seen Manfred Hecht's name since the early 90's. Anybody? (LMI, LM1000). R3~
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Manfred passed away quite a few years ago now, 10 at least. Chain smoker.
Pete
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As this is drifting into an 850 round head mileage thread, my T3 with stock jetting and restrictive stock mufflers and a plexistarII always gets 47 mpg driving 60-65 mph.
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I've got a '76 T3 and it's rated at 68 HP
I've looked at the V9 Bobber and it's rated at 55 HP.
Same displacement.
40 years more modern.
Where did the horsepower go?
The 1976 bike had 68 bhp: "Brochure Horsepower".
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Manfred passed away quite a few years ago now, 10 at least. Chain smoker.
FWIW January 5th, 2011 according to the NY Times Obit.
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The figure Guzzi claims is probably taken at the crank and not at the back wheel.
As for jetting, what is stock? I've seen em all over the place.
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Stock jetting: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_technical_carburetor.htm#factory_settings
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From Two Checks:
Thats a nasty drop at 3,000rpm, any feedback on whats causing that?
I would question that as if the motor put out 68hp at the crank it would be showing something in the mid-50s at the wheel instead mid 40s.
GliderJohn
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I'm the owner of a Le Mans 2 , factory rated at 80 horsepower . Years later , I'd installed a 990 cc kit with 10.5 to 1 pistons,
40mm Dellortos , Megacycle cam (Norris SS grind copy) , Bub 40mm header pipes and megaphone exhaust and twin plugged
the heads and lightened flywheel . 4 hours of dyno time at the shop I worked at and I finally got 70.4 rear wheel horsepower !
They must have been using Shetland ponies for horses :grin: . But it still gets 18 kilometers per liter . Peter
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Quote from: gliderjohn on Today at 10:41:35 AM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103432.msg1637249#msg1637249)From Two Checks:I would question that as if the motor put out 68hp at the crank it would be showing something in the mid-50s at the wheel instead mid 40s.
GliderJohn
Wrong quote. 1down5up asked that.
But ya did answer my statement about hp at the crank vs at the wheel.
Its all good.
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My bad. Was even sober.
GliderJohn
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I got similar results to Glider John.
850T with new gilardoni barrels (849cc)
36mm carbs
Megacycle X-9 ( norriss s ) cam
ported heads
compression ratio increased with copper head and base gaskets (10.5:1?)
stock heavy flywheel.
It runs great and is a hoot to ride.
I cant figure where Guzzi got their #s, Crankshaft HP is still optimistic.
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From Turin:
It runs great and is a hoot to ride.
:thumb:
GliderJohn
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I vaguely remember a magazine dyno test of a new early-80s round barrel 1000 SP showing 48 RWHP. With big carbs, porting and a different cam you’d reasonably get 8 HP more from a 949 cc modified 850 engine, as per the tests above.
Move ahead 35 years and you get still another 10 HP with a small block V85TT that (I’m led to believe) benefits from computerized valve train analysis to produce 68 RWHP from an 850 with quiet mufflers and single throttle body. That’s still amazing to me. Awesome :thumb:
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Just looked at my small block Guzzi Work Shop manual for the original small blocks. Max output of v65=52hp.
My seat of the pants says no way, no how! Rear wheel hp, my guess somewhere in the mid 30s.
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(https://i.ibb.co/z6SGGV6/Dyno-Jet-Le-Mans2002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6SGGV6)
This is from the last dyno runs I made on my Le Mans 2 literally decades ago ! Still runs great , Peter
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The bobber is a small block heron head?
Seems the horsepower sounds right, I’d guess a good T3 would be close
You could probably guess which way I lean :grin:
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The bobber is a small block heron head?
Seems the horsepower sounds right, I’d guess a good T3 would be close
You could probably guess which way I lean :grin:
It's not a heron head.
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It's not a heron head.
What N3 said... ∆∆∆
The Bobber was introduced with the new Hemi head smallblock. In both 850 and 750 versions the new smallblock punches above it's weight class when compared to the old Heron head motors.
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I'm surprised at the what I consider low output from modified 850's...This is my 650 Triumph ,the one that holds several speed records but it's not radical, starts on one kick and idles at 900 rpm..More or less a Bonneville with 10.5 compression, larger carbs, slightly hotter cams and a head porting done by Rob Hall from HCV Motorsports in N.C. I'm just a hobbyist engine builder but some effort was spend on piston quench . Look at the flat power curve ,it's making 45 RWHP at 5000 rpm, 55 at 7000.There are more dyno runs than shown here testing intake length and so on...Vintage Triumphs have a no so good head designed in the 1930's..I believe there's more Hp to be had from a Guzzi without making the engine a pain in the ass for street riding. I believe Rob Hall may be of help...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/2921/14045200590_6a2f175142_z.jpg)
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my 850 LM with a B10 cam and 40mm carbs dynos at 63hp rear wheel
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From what I've heard, actual HP figures from dynos shouldn't be taken as gospel, only comparison. Compare the graphs to earlier runs on the same machine, preferably on the same day to determine if changes improved power output.
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From what I've heard, actual HP figures from dynos shouldn't be taken as gospel, only comparison. Compare the graphs to earlier runs on the same machine, preferably on the same day to determine if changes improved power output.
Correct, but this thread is about bragging rights :wink:
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Correct, but this thread is about bragging rights :wink:
Oops. Sorry about that. :embarrassed:
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It's not a heron head.
Thank you, I need to keep up with y’all. I think small block, I think heron head 😭
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I think the same thing. I hear Smalltalk and an image of a v50 pops into my head.