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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wicks on November 08, 2019, 01:36:14 PM
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Hi all - well I've got the old Le Mans running and she sounds great. Cheers to that. BUT:
Clutch is stuck stuck stuck. I've tried dousing with brake cleaner, then repeated cranking of the rear wheel with clutch lever strapped (yes it's pulling all the way), hitting the starter with brakes on, etc. She will pull a constant burn out with the clutch in in 1st gear at idle. Hah.
I imagine people who've brought old bikes back to life might have a trick or a process here. Do I fill the bell with alchohol to a level below the seals, soak for a day, turn engine 60 degrees, soak that section, etc., Ideas? Experience?
I'm reading old farm forums about tractors with stuck clutches. Reading about Coca Cola, WD40, to break free then brake cleaner to clear out the goo, but this idea scares me...could trash the friction material. I'm also thinking about using the organic rust remover that cleared my gas tank up miraculously.
Maybe a special tool can be made to get in here and [carefully pry in a progressive manner in increments while turning flywheel 25% each light pry] pry:
(https://i.ibb.co/9VQRCwr/59493322877-183-E0768-79-D9-42-F9-B9-DB-22-E1-AD0-FE96-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9VQRCwr)
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Start here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102794.0
Also try using the 'Search' box in the upper right hand corner...
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Just the "usual abuse" to try and get it loose. Start engine, roll the bike down a slope, engage a gear (1st?), pull in the clutch and hammer the throttle on and off and hope it comes loose. Might be better off crabbing the frame to pull the transmission to have a look.
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Yes have read that thread and all else I could search for...I'm over on actual farm tractor threads... the bike hasn't run since 1982 so specifically looking for ideas for a clutch that hasn't been released in that long...
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Yes have read that thread and all else I could search for...I'm over on actual farm tractor threads... the bike hasn't run since 1982 so specifically looking for ideas for a clutch that hasn't been released in that long...
You could try sticking a tool in the bellhousing hole. I think the factory tool is part number 1234 5678.
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If the normal abuse suggested hasn't already worked, I would crab the frame, pull it apart and make sure the clutch is released without incurring more damage (like bellhousing wreckage from prying...) & to make sure that a freed original clutch is still serviceable. Being frozen like this combined with the ?? Process of freeing it may not make for happy parts at highway speed. While its apart, upgrade from the square spline to the v spline input hub & clutch parts. You won't regret it. jmho
I've freed many different things like this and other than being careful not to break things, there isn't one magic method that always works. It may be a drag to be this close to going for a ride and have to tear it all down, but the alternative could be much worse. Patience isn't how long you've waited. It's how much longer you can wait...
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So cool. Just ordered. Let you know if it works to carefully separate the rust from this thread.
You could try sticking a tool in the bellhousing hole. I think the factory tool is part number 1234 5678.
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Just a quick simple check. Is the clutch lever on the back of the trans hitting the trans when you pull the handlebar lever?
Tom
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Clutch lever moves to almost contacting rear of trans. Moves plenty, and freely.
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This happened after install and light use of a brand new clutch in my '85 LM1000.
Being an old dirt-tracker, I started it in neutral, trotted beside it and jumped on and popped it in 1st gear. I had to ride around with the clutch lever pulled, jerking the throttle on and off a bit, for probably nearly a whole minute before it came loose. But it did come loose, and I didn't have to abuse it; the weight of the bike and traction is enormously more powerful than you can be with the engine off, and still not put nearly as much abuse on it as simple spirited riding.
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I went through this last year with an 85 LM4 that hadn't run since 1991. I abused it a little riding up the drive and back a few times with no luck. Finally tore it apart to find the clutch badly rusted to the flywheel. I managed to clean everything up fairly well and only needed to replace a few parts. Been fine ever since.
If you've never crabbed a guzzi - now's a good time to learn. It's not really difficult, but first time might take the better part of a day.
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Yeah, it's rust and there *may* be a lot of it. If it were me, I'd have a look since it is such a museum piece. What's a few more hours labor?
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Thanks gents very much. What I'm thinking with the input is
A) try getting her going in 1st and running a bit hard on the throttle for a while to see if it comes loose, and if not
B) soaking clutch in the organic rust remover for 24 hours, and if no love
C) go for (yes it would be my first time) the crab and replace all seals for good measure while in there. Lots of butter. ;)
I just bought a camera scope that attaches to iphone, has a light on it. So I may be able to get a pretty good look in there. Will report.
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I just bought a camera scope that attaches to iphone, has a light on it. So I may be able to get a pretty good look in there. Will report.
You won't be able to see much of anything. The clutch is totally enclosed within the flywheel. You might see the back of the engine and front of the transmission, but that's about it.
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If you want to try a soaking. I think it was mineral spirits. In Ca., it seems had to get, just like MEK. Do a search on how to do it, but you plug the drain hole at the bottom of the trans at the bell housing and pour it in. Again search for better directions.
Tom
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Mineral spirits is what I would use. Pull off the starter and make a blanking cover. Make a rectangle plug for the bottom hole out of a bit of wood and fill ‘er up. I use a siphon sprayer run off an air compressor. Mineral spirits won’t hurt the seals but will go into the starter if you leave it on, not a big deal . If you do leave it on you can start the engine to work the clutch but after I would pull the starter and lube the bendix with heavy duty spray silicone. It’s worth a try before you yard it apart.
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In all honesty I'd forget all the rafting about, chicken sacrificing, waving of voodoo fetishes etc. it's not run for pretty much forever and is bound to be full of mung and mank. Pulling the gearbox is really not a big deal on a Tonti. You'll pronably waste more of your life farting about trying to break it loose, (Which will still leave all the horrid mank in the clutch.) than you will if you just hook in and do the job properly!
Pete
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True, I don’t think spirits would have helped much anyway but it’s fun to try stuff on other folks stuff :evil:
And it won’t hurt anything
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Yeah, it's rust and there *may* be a lot of it. If it were me, I'd have a look since it is such a museum piece. What's a few more hours labor?
Is "crabbing" a Guzzi disconnecting the lower frame rails and lifting the frame over top of the (remaining) engine and transmission?
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Yes, that's essentially it. Or the engine and transmission can drop down for access.
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Tonti Guzzi in crabbing position to replace the clutch
(https://i.ibb.co/r74n0Zz/IMG-0041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r74n0Zz)
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Instead of the 2X4 in back that I'd probably :grin: knock loose and things would come crashing down.. I put it between the top frame rails and cylinder heads.
Really, it's a walk in the park. After you do it, you wonder what you were worrying about.
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Maybe it’s me but having worked on a crabbed bike, I prefer to just pull the frame apart. With the factory engine stand,etc., it’s pretty easy and I don’t have to worry about all this stuff floating in the air. I only have early Tonti’s so the wires are pretty minimal, maybe it’s worth the crab on newer bikes with lots of wires.
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"Walk in the park" - not a pleasant one for sure. I'd much rather do the same job on a Loop, so much easier.
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Why is it easier on a loop?
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Here is a LeMans properly crabbed. Some prefer it because it can be done singlehanded and eliminates most of the difficult process of lining up the frame to the engine cradle upon reassembly. I've done it both ways. For an in and out clutch or transmission repair crabbing is the way to do it.
Hunter
(https://i.ibb.co/Kx2b6Xp/IMG-0747.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kx2b6Xp)
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Why is it easier on a loop?
The transmission comes out of a Loop without removing the engine. Just the swingarm and some other items and it's out in an hour or so. The book time on the transmission R&R for a tonti is 8 hours! :shocked:
Hunter
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Why is it easier on a loop?
Because you just tilt the engine forward (after removing the necessary bits) and pluck the transmission off of it. Meanwhile the rest of the bike is supported on the centerstand - no hanging it from rafters or supporting it with sawhorses, etc.
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Great thread for us Moto Guzzi newbies to read.
What is this strange language the MG gods speaketh? Tonti? Loop? Crabbing?
I think I am beginning to under stand why tinkerers are drawn to Moto Guzzi like buzzards to roadkill......
I love it!
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Great thread for us Moto Guzzi newbies to read.
What is this strange language the MG gods speaketh? Tonti? Loop? Crabbing?
I think I am beginning to under stand why tinkerers are drawn to Moto Guzzi like buzzards to roadkill......
LOL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You'll fit right in!
Now you know what crabbing is. Right? No questions there.
Loop - short for Loop frame. The first Guzzis with the transverse V engine - 1967-74. Their frames are like old Triumphs and BMWs that loop around the engine.
Tonti - the engineer who designed the next generation frame in use from 71 till sometime after 2000.
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LOL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You'll fit right in!
Now you know what crabbing is. Right? No questions there.
Loop - short for Loop frame. The first Guzzis with the transverse V engine - 1967-74. Their frames are like old Triumphs and BMWs that loop around the engine.
Tonti - the engineer who designed the next generation frame in use from 71 till sometime after 2000.
"Look! A used Moto Guzzi at a great price.....Looks a bit abandoned and neglected..... Fixing this will be easy!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbE8E1ez97M
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Before WG the only crabbing I'ever done was in Alaska during my misspent youth. The first clutch on a Guzzi was on my Ambo and as Charlie pointed out, swinging the motor to pluck out the gearbox does seem to make more sense. For years on Tontis I undid the frame off of the powertrain on the lower rails with the centerstand deployed and then pulled the transmission while the engine was supported on blocks. As that was always done on the floor, it was stable if not more time consuming. In any case, if everything is steady on your crabbing rig you are golden .The pic I posted was during a 4 hour evening clutch swap due to the dreaded Surflex clutch plates causing clutch creep. The next morning the SP was commuting to work. The Tonti Californias are a bit more cumbersome ,at least to me . On the ground it would take me a couple evenings after work to do the entire job, whereas at work with a motorcycle lift and overhead winch it was about a 5 hour job. and Chuck FYI, I only use 2x6's when crabbing...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lino_Tonti
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lino_Tonti
The statement "...for creating his signature 'Tonti frame' for Moto Guzzi's 1967 V7 Sport..." isn't correct. The V7 Sport didn't come out till 1971. I think 1967 was the first V7 Loop. Tonti wanted to set it up for racing, but it scraped the frame in corners. He made modifications to the charging system and designed a whole new frame. I think he also designed the small blocks that came out in the 80s.
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I think he also designed the small blocks that came out in the 80s.
Correctomundo. It's very similar to the big block frame.
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And the reason the tail light is so cool, completing the amazingly good design of the Le Mans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Tomaso
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Correctomundo. It's very similar to the big block frame.
Except it was the '70s - first small-blocks were on sale in '77.
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I’ve thought about it and think a mineral spirits wash could do it, especially if you let it sit for a couple hours. It won’t hurt anything so it may be worth a try. You will have to tear it apart but maybe you want to delay that until you get organized to do it.
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LOL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You'll fit right in!
Now you know what crabbing is. Right? No questions there.
Loop - short for Loop frame. The first Guzzis with the transverse V engine - 1967-74. Their frames are like old Triumphs and BMWs that loop around the engine.
Tonti - the engineer who designed the next generation frame in use from 71 till sometime after 2000.
:grin: Thanks for the splainations....Wha t kind of frame does my 2007 Nevada have? To me, it looks black, and probably made of some kind of steel!
I recall a industrial maintenance seminar where the lecturer was discussing various ways to do things. One guy kept interrupting with his own special secrets for doing those tasks. Most of the time, snickers were heard when he outlined his expertise. After several interruptions, someone in the class said "Man! You make everything you do more difficult than it needs to be! I bet you and your wife make love standing up in a hammock!"
He might have ended up as head of MG's R&D division.....
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:grin: Thanks for the splainations....Wha t kind of frame does my 2007 Nevada have? To me, it looks black, and probably made of some kind of steel!
Up until the V85TT, all small-blocks (which includes the Nevada) were all (small) Tonti frames.
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Alas I don't have to learn to do the CRAB just yet, woke up to a free clutch this morning! A little voodoo can go a long way.
I strapped the clutch lever to bar, plugged the weep hole under bell, removed starter, put it in 5th, removed the plugs, and filled her up with this magic stuff evapo-rust. The fluid doesn't come up to center of the fly/clutch assy, so i left it for one hour, topped up (some will drip out, and the drip rate will slow down as rust gets lifted by this fluid and fills the gaps), then rotate engine 3 bolts (of the ring gear). Then another hour, top up, turn 1/3 and so on. To let the fluid get in and out of the ring gear holes etc. Every so often I went down to the garage and gave her a nice spin sort of like a washing machine. Top off, come back in 2 hours. Top off. Go to sleep, wake up, clutch is free.
Then I gave it a bath with hot soapy water and heat gun is drying it out now on low heat.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZN5PLRH/Screen-Shot-2019-11-11-at-8-32-59-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/ZN5PLRH)
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Excellent!!
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Quote from: Antietam Classic Cycle on Today at 08:08:46 AM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103455.msg1638013#msg1638013)Up until the V85TT, all small-blocks (which includes the Nevada) were all (small) Tonti frames.
Kinda sorta. The big blocks don't have the swingarm pivot in the transmission case.
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Quote from: Antietam Classic Cycle on Today at 08:08:46 AM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103455.msg1638013#msg1638013)Up until the V85TT, all small-blocks (which includes the Nevada) were all (small) Tonti frames.
Kinda sorta. The big blocks don't have the swingarm pivot in the transmission case.
Lino Tonti designed the small-block frame, so it's considered a "Tonti-frame".
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Evapo-Rust is pretty amazing stuff!
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Up until the V85TT, all small-blocks (which includes the Nevada) were all (small) Tonti frames.
Thank you!
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Evapo-Rust is pretty amazing stuff!
I'm adding this one and Milkstone to my list of chemical helpers.
I hired a 70 year old guy who lives in Madison Heights to do some heavy equipment work for me a couple years ago. We hit it off when I was telling him about all the old stuff my father used to own. So he said I have some stuff to show you. By the end of the tour, I saw somewhere between 100 and 150 old cars, trucks, tractors and assorted construction equipment. Including some real gems like late 40's thru early 50's Ford F600 4x4's.
I told my wife I like to have a few of those vehicles just to see how well they come apart. Now with a crane and a couple swimming pools full of Deep Creep or Ed's Red........
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Alas I don't have to learn to do the CRAB just yet, woke up to a free clutch this morning! A little voodoo can go a long way.
I strapped the clutch lever to bar, plugged the weep hole under bell, removed starter, put it in 5th, removed the plugs, and filled her up with this magic stuff evapo-rust. The fluid doesn't come up to center of the fly/clutch assy, so i left it for one hour, topped up (some will drip out, and the drip rate will slow down as rust gets lifted by this fluid and fills the gaps), then rotate engine 3 bolts (of the ring gear). Then another hour, top up, turn 1/3 and so on. To let the fluid get in and out of the ring gear holes etc. Every so often I went down to the garage and gave her a nice spin sort of like a washing machine. Top off, come back in 2 hours. Top off. Go to sleep, wake up, clutch is free.
Then I gave it a bath with hot soapy water and heat gun is drying it out now on low heat.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZN5PLRH/Screen-Shot-2019-11-11-at-8-32-59-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/ZN5PLRH)
Smart man! Always try simple first.
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After its really well dry, the test is a hard pull in third gear bumping the redline to see if it slips. if it passes that test, run 'er until failure, with any luck at all, will be thousands of miles!
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After its really well dry, the test is a hard pull in third gear bumping the redline to see if it slips. if it passes that test, run 'er until failure, with any luck at all, will be thousands of miles!
I did that with the LMV that had an oiled clutch. After the mineral spirits trick, Dorcia was not amused on the back.. but it showed the clutch was ok. :evil: :smiley:
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First ride done and she is working beautifully. Clutch is perfect in all gears full throttle all the way up the revs. These Conti Classic Attacks are amazing tires, the balance and turn-in is incredibly good. No oil leaks. She wants canyon roads!
After its really well dry, the test is a hard pull in third gear bumping the redline to see if it slips. if it passes that test, run 'er until failure, with any luck at all, will be thousands of miles!
(https://i.ibb.co/QFdzXL8/IMG-8240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFdzXL8)
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:thumb: :thumb: Glad that lovely lemans is back out on the road where it belongs. You are now a candidate for the prestigious red suspender award! :boozing:
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Sometimes waving bones over it works! :thumb:
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Great work Wicks! The bike will finally have its day(s) in the sun!
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These Conti Classic Attacks are amazing tires
I've been singing Conti praises for some time now.. :thumb:
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Thanks for that!
I've been singing Conti praises for some time now.. :thumb: