Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: rjamesohio on November 22, 2019, 09:43:02 PM
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I've had a long-standing discussion with a great friend and riding buddy about "The New Bikes" versus what he calls my "Nineteenth Century" machines.
I've worked on OLD bikes that rattled and vibrated themselves into junk in less 10K miles. I've been plenty frustrated with magnetos, and I've put Dyna Ignitions into trusty old Tontis that started on the button and ran for miles on-end. With carburetors and no ECUS.
For me - the 70's were a decade when motorcycles really start to reach the epitome. Granted - there have been some nice improvements since, but I've NEVER had an injected Guzzi that got near the mileage of my old SP1000, which would run all day at 80 MPH, was reliable as a nail and ran smoother than most of my injected Guzzis.
So - the question is: when you look at what has appeared on new Guzzis over the past 30-40 years, what technology has REALLY moved the needle where you could say "I GOTTA have that on my machine". ECU's versus distributors? Carbs vs injectors? Spoke wheels versus alloy? Multi-function dashes versus a good old analog tach and speedo?
I've currently got two bikes in the garage that are ready to go anywhere. Both have injection, and one even has ABS. ABS is nice, but when it goes wrong the ABS pumps can bankrupt you if you're running an older machine. My Cali with triple Brembo disks hauled me down safely this summer when we ran up on a major construction zone on the interstate that was not properly marked. The ABS bike would have done the same but with way more complexity. Needed? I don't think so.
I'm starting to assemble a bike using components I have or am sourcing. So I'm thinking about things like "carbs vs injection" et al.
Here is my list of items that I think are definite advancements and thus desirable:
Fuel Injection or Carbs - I'm saying carbs
ECU or crank-triggered electronic ignition - Electronic ignition over ECUs.
Spoke wheels or alloy - Spokes as long as I can run tubeless tires
Multi-function dash or analog dials - DIALS.
To sum up - what are YOUR essential components that are a must in the modern motorcycle that you want to depend upon without running up the complexity and cost needlessly? I'm guessing we've over-saturated ourselves with technology in a quest to sell newer bikes, and maybe that's what's missing from the modern market...
Looking forward to see what this group feels about technology and have we gone too far?
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I really appreciate the old tech of the 70's, but its finicky, Dellorto's can be a PIA, so-so brakes, stiff suspension, et. all.
I have to admit fuel injection is real nice, modern brakes with ABS and adjustable suspension does make a difference. My K1600GTL probably has as much 'tech' as anything out there and the comfort, ride and performance is excellent but it does not stir my 'soul' like my 72 Eldorado or my old V7 Sport did. However if I am going to head out on an extended trip the BMW is going to be the bike of choice.
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I only recently started buying what are to me new style bikes. I finally realised I don't want to be elbow deep in machinery anymore. That may change as time passes, but I just retired in June, (aviation mechanic) and I'm enjoying not twirling wrenches right now. I sold off my classic bikes and now all my bikes have computers and electronic ignition. 2 have carbs, two have fuel injection. I know what makes carbs tick, but the ignition and/or fuel injection would leave me stranded IF they acted up. But it doesn't matter, because I am never out of phone range. I don't NEED to understand what the magic smoke does inside the wiring.
If I were building a bike, I'd be like you and use components I understand and can tune. If I were touring again, my list would be:
tubeless tires, in readily available tire sizes
ample electrical power and outlets for heated clothed and phone, GPS etc.
easy access to tire removal
powerful additional lighting
loud horn.
I never had ABS, or riding modes, or heated seats or grips, or movable windshield, so I don't know what I'm missing, :grin:
I do know that my fuel injected bikes start right NOW, regardless of weather.
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This discussion is not limited to bikes of the 70s. In fact - I think the 80s and 90s were decades of vast improvement.
However - it seems that Guzzi in particular started having issues in the 2000's when they tried to bring new technology to the market: CARC, multi-function dashes - both stand out as pure technology that not only HURT the overall reliability of the modern Guzzis but were of questionable value in terms of what they brought when replacing the older technology.
One model in particular I've always admired is the Breva 1200. But it is legendary for have a sub-part dash module that can stop your ride if components get moisture-laden.
Again - I ask - have we gone too far?
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It depends on what year you were born . Like music , it is a moving target .
Dusty
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ample electrical power and outlets for heated clothed and phone, GPS etc.
easy access to tire removal
powerful additional lighting
I never had ABS, or riding modes, or heated seats or grips, or movable windshield, so I don't know what I'm missing, :grin:
I do know that my fuel injected bikes start right NOW, regardless of weather.
Shorty - spot on on a couple of your ideas. I can attest that I've had few bikes with ample power and heated grips for heated jackets, but I rode my BMW last Sunday and the heated grips and BMW plug powering my Gerbings Jackets are WONDERFUL. It's true that the old Charging systems of the 70's are woeful, but you can upgrade them with bolt-ons from places like Euromoto Electric!
Great list for sure, thanks.
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I remember Greg Field talking about adding FI to his Eldo and there was no looking back. So I agree with you Ron on the simplicity of the carbs but I think the advantages of FI far outweigh the negatives. But an FI sysem my be tougher if building from scratch.
May only be specific to the Loop frames, but moving from the generator to an alternator. So I guess for any bike that means the ability to make enough amps.
LED lights. To me hands down the LED is the single greatest invention of the late 20th century. "New" bike had to be LED.
-AJ
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This is an intriguing thread question.
I’m 57, which perhaps explains my random or irrational responses.
Biggest machine improvement since the ‘70s must be O-ring chains. Back then, I’d wear out a chain in 7,000 miles or less despite babying it with regular baths in molten English grease, prayers and incantations, and all the rest. Today, I’m not sure that a drive shaft offers real benefits or economy over a minimally maintained modern O-ring chain. That’s a huge leap forward.
I strongly prefer analog gauges to digital ones.
In general I’m turned off by extraneous flashing lights and random electronic gee-gaws. I just want the basics. Preferably in analog.
I don’t want to mess with crappy braking performance on a motorcycle. Too dangerous. So I’m looking for front disc brakes at a minimum. And I like the fact that modern disc brakes actually work in the rain. And don’t turn orange in high humidity because you just had to have cast iron rotors.
Nevertheless, I’m ambivalent about ABS. Don’t like the complexity and cost, and have been nearly killed by 2007 era BMW ABS systems. I lean towards no ABS and a reliance on common sense, experience, and the need to simply SLOW DOWN when conditions are marginal or bad.
I remember tube tires and spoked wheels. No thanks. Give me a cast wheel and an easy to patch tubleless tire.
I’m underwhelmed by fuel injection. Perhaps because I seem to be battling a lot recently with persistent problems with computers, sensors, and stuff on a modern FI Guzzi small block, and it is a total PITA. Give me a simple carb I understand, even if I have to periodically rebuild it or clean it. I haven’t seen much benefit to fuel injection. I don’t seem to get better gas mileage; probably worse. Good carbs don’t have “surging” issues. I really don’t care about the “benefit” of being able to start without a choke or avoiding the need to let the engine warm up a bit. And I don’t regularly ride through 8,000 feet elevation changes.
ECU? See above. I’m ok with points. I’m ok with a dead simple crank triggered inductive ignition system. Not happy with full blown ECU and all the sensors and related computer stuff.
I’m a strong fan of old fashioned air cooling. Not a fan of radiators, hoses, thermostats, coolant flushes, fans, etc. I’ve had several severe problems with “modern” water cooling— give me air cooling anytime. No, I don’t need the extra 50 horsepower that water cooling might permit. 80-100 HP is plenty for me on the street; heck, 45 HP is fine too.
I think modern tires are an improvement. That being said, I’m fine with a modern bias ply tubless tire that most would consider too “skinny.” I like the way the skinny bias ply tires handle, and understand them. Huge, fat, low-aspect modern radial tires don’t seem right to me. And at least on the relatively light bikes I ride, I’m not seeing some significant benefit in tire life between modern bias ply versus radials.
I suspect modern motor oils are a vast improvement from what we had in the 1970s.
If you move away from bike technology, there are two other huge motorcycling related improvements. Riding gear is the first. It used to be it was black leather jacket, jeans, old boots and maybe some work gloves. Now we have truly excellent gear, with armor, genuine waterproofing, high visibility, etc. I honestly don’t think I could ride year round like I do now without Aerostich gear, Gore-Tex, good but cheap electrical vests and gloves in the winter, etc.
The second big change is information. Today I can move my fingers 149 times on computer keyboard and within minutes the entire Guzzi fan base across the world can give me answers to any question I pose. That is one huge leap forward from hanging out at the local bike shop and hoping that the resident shop guru on Yamaha 2-strokes could address your issues with a 4 stroke Honda.
Basically nobody today says “I had to lay her down.” Back in the 70s, such myths and stupidity was commonplace.
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We're showing our age :grin: , and I love it ! Heck , growing up with Lucas magnetos and monoblock carbs , I find twin point assemblies modern .
However in my later years I'd wired H-D ignitions into Titan custom motorcycles and trouble shot Yamaha R1m's fuel injections at dealerships , but
the simple pleasure of a tune-up on dinosaur motorcycles still brings a smile to my face . Peter
ps: I love my heated grips and heated vests too .
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Have an '08 1200 Sport.
Most of what I like came in the late 70's - 80's
Music please... Tom T. Hall ....
I like... Fuel Injection over carbs, Electronic Ignition over points, Hydraulic clutch over cable, Mag wheels/tubeless tires over spokes and tubes, and Disc brakes, Analog gauges to digital readout.
Wish it didn't have ... All the electronic stuff on the dash, Fuel pump
Love Heated grips and heated jacket too
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Carbs? Never again! You can set up them as long as you want. But then their function is 100% perfect only under the same conditions. And only on Thursdays. And I really like the fact that a bike with fuel injection, cats and lambda probes is relatively clean. ABS - well it is good. As long as it is a very modern unit which senses all conditions the bike is in (including the leaning angle). Tc? Well, choose an engine that is not more powerful than 100 hp. Then you don´t need it. And use your brain when you ride.
In fact the equipment of V7 II or V85 TT (sans electronic dashboard, and without spoked wheels) for me sets the mark. Heated grips? Well there are protecting tubes that you can showe over the grips and put your hands in. Looks bad, but works good.
Cruise control? On the twisty lanes I normally ride without any sense.
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i think it makes a difference if you work on your bike yourself , if you dont, it really doesnt matter, and you are probably better served with a brand new bike , with all the comfort of new technology.
if you do , the toolset you are confident with defines the technology you are comfortable with.
i have never brought a vehicle to a mechanic in my life , so i am seriously stuck with low tech bikes.
If i would have a bit more backround in electronics ( and tools to match) FI might would make sense , right now i am comfortable running carbs. , i would not take a bikes with FI on a long travel.
a friend has the skills to develop his own injection system , he couldnt imagine running carbs.
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:rolleyes:
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/91/78/64/image13.gif)
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It depends on what year you were born . Like music , it is a moving target .
Dusty
Nailed it
Way to go Dusty
My 3 Guzzis are alll of a similar age 92, 99 and 2000.
My problem was not the tech improvements but that the factory was in a bad way around the turn of the century and both the 1100 sporti and the Hi Cam engine have exhibited serious problems due to leaving the factory with issues that I'm (hopefully) slowly addressing. My Ducati is going next year and I'll keep the Guzzis because they are stone axe simple.
Due to my advancing years the idea of riding modes, ABS, anti wheelie, quick shifters etc: etc: is that it's just more s**t to break, it's not for me.
The concept of producing a complex and finely tuned engine capable of warp speeds then adding another bunch of gizmos to harness and control all the power faintly ridiciulous. I'm happy with 100hp max and even then very very rarely is the throttle near the stop or the tach near the red line.
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As much as I would like to have an old 60s-early 70s C body MoPar I can't afford it. I can afford old Guzzis so they are my C body.
Points and carbs work well when set up right. Easily fixed.
Brembos of the era work well. No gadgetry to act up.
Cast wheels are more simple than wire spokes.
The simplicity-some would say the primitive nature of the bikes add to the adventure for me.
Its why we like old cars.
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i think it makes a difference if you work on your bike yourself , if you dont, it really doesnt matter, and you are probably better served with a brand new bike , with all the comfort of new technology.
if you do , the toolset you are confident with defines the technology you are comfortable with.
I'm completely comfortable with wrenching on carbs and antiques. But that's why I prefer modern bikes, so I don't HAVE TO AS OFTEN.
I used to poo poo abs, but that was just arrogance.
I still like air cooled cause I like the simplicity.
I like analog gauges for the aesthetics, but I'm ok with the digital ones and the additional data.
EFI is a God send. Seriously I'm pissed my generator has a carbureted and my yard tools see electric. :angel:
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Due to my advancing years the idea of riding modes, ABS, anti wheelie, quick shifters etc: etc: is that it's just more s**t to break, it's not for me.
An oft assumed, but incorrect assumption.
Modern vehicles ON A WHOLE (there are glorious f'up exceptions) are proven to be more reliable and longer lasting.
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:rolleyes:
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/18/91/78/64/image13.gif)
This horse has been beaten on a multi yearly basis.
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Having FI, ECU etc doesn't mean flashing lights, traction control or ABS.
My current bike feels like a 70's bike, has 100 hp, gets over 50 MPG all the time. Ride by wire. Starts every time, almost never needs routine maintenance. Why would I want to go back?
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The simplicity-some would say the primitive nature of the bikes add to the adventure for me.
This applies to me.
If I just want to get somewhere smoothly, in comfort and without having the potential adventure of road-side fixes, I take the car.
Nick
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FI is very reliable. Analog gauges over multi function displays. ABS is an improvement.
Had an F800GT and almost never changed the riding mod off “comfort” and the tire pressure warning was extremely alarming
They really only add all these gadgets for the marketing guys and the motorcycle mag writers. Once a new bike has a certain feature the rest have to follow suit. The writers will knock any any competitor that doesn’t have it henceforth.
Six speed trans is a good example. One of the knocks on my NT700V was no 6th Gear. No street bike needs extra gears. Extra gears are for performance riding to keep the rpms in a certain range but if you built a 5 speed bike you get hammered.
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I do like Electronic Ignition.. Ive swapped all my old cars over since the 80's when aftermarket kits got affordable. FI vs carb? Maybe its from fighting with the setup on my 02 stone... But I don't mind carbs.. The FI is nice,and Im not afraid of it, but Im really not good at the softwere side of it, and can work with carbs better. Other then that.. on a bike I really like the old tech.
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This horse has been beaten on a multi yearly basis.
As long as the horse doesn't mind.........
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Another timely subject. Most of my bikes ar FI, and I despise it on virtually every one. I own a 2012 FI Harley Road Glide Twin Cam I call "the unfixable motorcycle" because it won't idle correctly and since it's not "throwing a code" no dealer has a clue whats wrong with it, and just wants to throw parts at it at my expense. Well, I can do that and save $100 an hour labor charge. On my own, I've replaced every singe sensor, checked for an intake leak with propane, and even replaced the ECM, all to no avail. Thats' modern fuel injection and electronics for you, when they work, great. If not, you might as well push the motorcycle off a cliff. In my experience, no fuel injected bike I've ever ridden has as good throttle response as a carbureted bike. They all exhibit a lean surge somewhere in the power band. It may be slight, or it may be obvious, but it's there. When the manufactures had to add O2 sensors to meet emissions, things really went down hill. Lean surging exists on virtually every one of my FI bikes that have O2 sensors. I had a Honda VFR that was unridable at low speeds/part throttle due to the surging. I finally got so frustrated with the open loop/closed loop FI nonsense I disconnected the O2 sensors. The bike was Transformed! No more surging. If I can ever get the Road Glide fixed (not looking too good at this point) I'll sell it and replace it with a 2006 model...the last year for carbureted models. Rant over. :angry: (well, not really, but at least for now :wink:)
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(https://i.ibb.co/q7hnnj6/31-E568-C6-E913-4-F71-8-A91-B9-C98-E84-E391.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q7hnnj6)
(https://i.ibb.co/dbQfNV5/A3-B09-B9-F-46-E6-4-ECB-8056-E0-DD9-C088-B7-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dbQfNV5)
I think the closest answer I could offer is this. Motorcycle enthusiast that are younger and has an understanding and working knowledge of the computer aspects which controls the newer Technologies on motorcycles, will appreciate and welcome the technological advances of today’s bikes. Also older riders who have educated themselves with this new technology, as some here on this forum has, also liked the advancing technology.
As for me personally, I am neither of the younger bunch nor smart enough to have keep up with the fast changing advancements. Therefore the folks in my category has few choices. I can either keep a cycle which has a warranty or be at the mercy of the cycle repair business or rely on assistance from some of the guys here to walk me through a situation, which I may or may not have the skills or tools to fix the given issue. The only other option I have is to own a bike from the earlier 80’s, which I also have.
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I have several bikes at multiple complexity levels. My tech-rich '16 BMW R1200RS is the safest. The traction control, ABS, and suspension and fueling modes make me a better rider in all weather. The bike remains a relatively easy ride to maintain and the complexity is somewhat offset by the brilliant CANBUS electrical system that allows tapping into both the power system and the control systems without splicing a single wire.
Second safest and my sentimental favorite is my '07 Vintage. That bike lives and breathes...a very special machine to me. It manages to feel old school while incorporating some tech. I don't mind spoked wheels a bit.
Different bikes produce different experiences. I'm glad that I may enjoy riding across a broad spectrum; from a vintage bike to a scooter to a sport bike to a bagger. They all have an appeal.
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I like technology, but I'm much less a fan of "technology", that word having been stolen by some to describe cheap electronic gee gaws that can be used to raise the price without much affecting either function or cost.
I'm not a fan of ABS (it feels like owning a ticking time bomb without a lot of benefits), nor closed loop EFI that detracts from the function of the engine, nor CANBUS that makes the bike less flexible in configuration and harder to maintain in the field. Traction control and 'modes' I would prefer not to buy. I am a fan of either open loop fuel injection or good carbs (cable operated, ride by wire is pointless), powerful disk brakes that work in precise proportion to lever pressure, engine and chassis designed around each other so the bike is stable all the way up to maximum speed. Most of that stuff was in place by the late '80s and the nonsense didn't show up on most brands until the early 2000s.
I think BMW is the worst when it comes to putting nonsense on their newer bikes while they remain simultaneously weak and annoying in function. The Japanese are better engineers, and Piaggio at least seems to have realized that copying BMW nonsense is not the way forward.
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You haven't seen "BMW nonsense" until you've experienced one of their older (2003-2007) bikes with servo-brake ABS. Electric power brakes on a motorcycle. Who comes up with this stuff?
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The tipping point for me was (a story I've told before) when my sister bought a brand new Chevy mini-van, 2010 or so.
Two weeks after she bought it, it just stopped dead on the side of the road, all electrics out - I happened to be the one who picked her up to get home. The dealer came and got the car - a week later they returned it to her "fixed".
Four days after that, it went dead again. This time she called the dealer to come pick her up and get ready to cut her a check for the full refund amount, which they did; I suppose the tone of her voice had undertones of "lemon law", "lawsuits", "bad publicity", etc which they recognized and reacted to. She went that day and bought a Toyota van, which did well for her.
The Chevy dealer was on her route to work. One day, she saw her "old" van in the lot, with a guy looking at it, clipboard in hand. She (out of curiosity and a desire to help (!)) stopped in, and talked to him.
Turns out he was a GM service rep, surveying the van for breaking up for parts. He said that the $20,000 wholesale value of the van could easily be used up in parts and labor trying to find the problem, and so the "brand new van" wasn't worth trying to diagnose and fix. Even by the factory, much less the factory-trained dealer.
Summary for this "old man" who "doesn't appreciate computer technology" and makes "bad assumptions" about high-tech ...... "I Don't Want That Kind Of Vehicle Any More". Basically disposable, unfixable, doesn't do a thing that I really care about that the old ones won't do. I'm not a fanatic, though - our two-up 1930-s design bike, the Norton MkIII has disc brakes, and I've done TLS brake upgrades on the BSAs.
Probably 300,000 of the almost 500K lifetime miles that I have on bikes are on 50's - 70's technology bikes. Of the 7 bikes in my shed, two of them have fuel injection, but the others work just fine for me. I not only remember the differences from "the old days", but I have "the old days" in my shed, and Fay and I ride them.
Note that since this opinion of mine was developed by experience and not by debate, I can't be debated into a different position, and there are no "assumptions" being made, none at all. Folks are just going to have to understand that people can look at the same data and come to a completely different conclusion than they did, and live by that conclusion. That can be hard, I know.
Lannis
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Modern vehicles ON A WHOLE (there are glorious f'up exceptions) are proven to be more reliable and longer lasting.
Agreed. There's a big difference between lasting longer and low-tech simplicity of maintenance. Nearly any 4 wheel vehicle now that keeps running is considered good for 300k miles of virtually ambivalent use & abuse. The statistical rate of lemons may not be any different than decades ago. when you're comparing a pool of 100,000 vehicles to a pool of 25,000,000 (or whatever) with the same numeric statistical failure rate, there's going to be a larger pool of failed units even if there is no statistical difference. Add the ease of communication now and it can impact perception even more.
Personally, I don't have any plans to have a new vehicle that isn't simple and easy for me to fix. With that said, Engineered obsolescence is a more practical approach to long term corporate viability which is good for direct & indirect earnings, pensions, etc. The world where people made & supported simple machines that could be easily fixed indefinitely for cheap money also had life longevity statistics that would have thinned the WG crowd notably by now.
As far as sustainable low tech goes, much of this argument would be moot if people were riding those horses instead of just beating on the dead ones. Good for global warming issues and lots more. Not a big horse fan here, but I've always wanted a Morgan....
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I have nothing against technology per se, it's just the viability and cost to repair it if and when it does go Tango Uniform. I'm retired now, and simply not in a position to pay the $100 (and up) labor costs today's dealerships charge. Especially since I know the shop tech may only see $15 dollars an hour of that. I know the drill, take your new high-tech motor vehicle into the service department. The tech hooks up his fancy, proprietary software diagnostic computer to it, and says, "It's showing a D-365876-36B code, that means your warp-coil is bad." Or in the event the computer shows nothing, the only thing blanker is the look on the techs face: "Well, we're not sure, but that will be $150 dollars to check the diagnostic codes."
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It just ain’t gonna catch on, all this new stuff . https://youtu.be/p45T7U5oi9Q
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On my carbed Cali 1100, I installed an air fuel sensor in the crossover. I found that cruising around 55 MPH, it was too lean. When cruising around 70 MPH, it was too rich. I spent a LOT of dollars and literally years trying to fix that. No needles, jets, or slides could do it. I needed a needle with an odd bell shape I guess.
I moved on to fuel injection. Even my Centauro fuel injection was more adjustable. Too lean here, bump up the number. Too rich there, bump down the number.
Nothing wrong with learning to use a new tool to get a job done better.
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"New technology" - nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there. :laugh:
"Enough" for me is the electronic ignition on a Moto Morini (high-tech in '72!).
I must be doing something wrong. My carbs aren't "finicky", points stay gapped for over 10k miles, drum brakes stop and are anti-lock :wink: , triple discs on the 'Vert stop better of course, suspension is on the firm side but compliant enough for all-day comfort, seats are more comfortable than anything modern, no electrical issues. The only necessary non-maintenance job I've done on the Guzzis in the last two years was fixing the rounded off fluid pump hex piece on the Convert.
LED lighting - got it, easy to add. No need to buy a modern bike to get it. Charging system could be a bit more powerful on the Convert, but the V700 has an (aftermarket) alternator which puts out 600 watts.
Y'all keep buying the new "high-tech, wiz-bang, greatest thing since sliced bread" bikes - that leaves more of the oldies for me. :grin:
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I'm 56, and started riding on '60's and '70's bikes. I still have a collection of vintage '60's scooters. I ride a '95 Ducati M900 Monster for normal transportation.
I think bike tech mostly peaked in the '90's. Manufacturing technology had advanced a lot by then from the '70's, so the bikes (and other machines) were more consistently built, and to better tolerances. But the machines themselves had not yet become too complex. My '95 M900 still has no computers, no gizmotronic electronics -- just simple and could be rebuilt in your garage with hand tools if needed. But still well-built and modern enough to be reliable. My last bike, a '93 M900 Monster pretty much identical the one I have now, I rode daily for 24 years and 265K miles, and it was solid as an anvil. We got taken out by a hit-and-run driver 2 years ago, otherwise I'd still be riding it, and pushing 300K miles by now.
The brakes were triple Brembo discs and worked fine. The carbs were reliable and solid. They needed to be rebuilt about every 30K, but that wasn't a huge deal. I had a good tech who would rejet them twice a year for the seasons; modern FI would eliminate that. So for carbs vs. FI, I could go either way. The charging system was good enough to let me add heated gloves, and that's all I really needed. Everything really just worked, easily and well, and was durable.
The only modern tech that I really like is a good modern ABS system. I see that as the biggest advance in safety since the tubeless tire. My next bike will be modern for that reason, and pretty much that reason only.
PhilB
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An oft assumed, but incorrect assumption.
Modern vehicles ON A WHOLE (there are glorious f'up exceptions) are proven to be more reliable and longer lasting.
Oh well I've been corrected then, I must have been ASS-uming.
Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom and taking the time to set me straight, appreciated
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A doctoral thesis could easily be written on the question posed by this thread. Machines and the people that use them have all benefitted from technological advancements in metal alloys, tire compounds, chassis design, lubricants, combustion efficiency for a cleaner environment. For me, this discussion revolves around the proliferation of electronics and the employment thereof. Everyone will have a different opinion on those benefits. I just purchased a V 85, by far the most tech laden 2 wheel vehicle I have owned. I like RBW throttle & cruise control. Huge improvement over a throttle lock. If you ride long distances it has value, if you are a day tripper, probably not. Ditto on heated grips. Never had ABS before. No matter how totally focused you are on a bike, instantaneous circumstances occur. Read too many reports of riders experiences how a panic stop with ABS saved their bacon. It has value to me. Just finished up a 6 day ride and the last day in 4 hours of heavy rain. Never occurred to me to change bike into rain mode. Apparently traction control isn't as important to me. I have read many testimonials by long time mechanics who all said that FI is virtually bulletproof. Sure, it is possible to have problems, but not bloody likely. Compared to carbs, it is amazingly efficient and dependable. Especially riding through large elevation changes. I don't see an argument here other than old school guys that like to tinker and take joy from a carb rebuild. If carbs were better they'd still be in cars. I prefer the simplicity of air cooled. I don't want to mess with a chain on my long haul bike, so I prefer the "complexity" of a shaft drive. I bought the V 85 because for me it was the most "old school" modern mid size adventure motorcycle on the market. I still look with great fondness and many trouble free miles at my 20 year old DR 350.
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Just took a ride on one of my low tech bikes. No ECU, no carbs, no motor.
Some years I put more miles on pedaled bikes.
I drive way too much to have a car with carbs/points etc. anymore. My current Audi is near to 200,000 miles and runs beautifully Still looks good too.
2 ends of the rope, I guess.
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The tipping point for me was (a story I've told before) when my sister bought a brand new Chevy mini-van, 2010 or so.
Two weeks after she bought it, it just stopped dead on the side of the road, all electrics out - I happened to be the one who picked her up to get home. The dealer came and got the car - a week later they returned it to her "fixed".
Four days after that, it went dead again. This time she called the dealer to come pick her up and get ready to cut her a check for the full refund amount, which they did; I suppose the tone of her voice had undertones of "lemon law", "lawsuits", "bad publicity", etc which they recognized and reacted to. She went that day and bought a Toyota van, which did well for her.
The Chevy dealer was on her route to work. One day, she saw her "old" van in the lot, with a guy looking at it, clipboard in hand. She (out of curiosity and a desire to help (!)) stopped in, and talked to him.
Turns out he was a GM service rep, surveying the van for breaking up for parts. He said that the $20,000 wholesale value of the van could easily be used up in parts and labor trying to find the problem, and so the "brand new van" wasn't worth trying to diagnose and fix. Even by the factory, much less the factory-trained dealer.
Summary for this "old man" who "doesn't appreciate computer technology" and makes "bad assumptions" about high-tech ...... "I Don't Want That Kind Of Vehicle Any More". Basically disposable, unfixable, doesn't do a thing that I really care about that the old ones won't do. I'm not a fanatic, though - our two-up 1930-s design bike, the Norton MkIII has disc brakes, and I've done TLS brake upgrades on the BSAs.
Probably 300,000 of the almost 500K lifetime miles that I have on bikes are on 50's - 70's technology bikes. Of the 7 bikes in my shed, two of them have fuel injection, but the others work just fine for me. I not only remember the differences from "the old days", but I have "the old days" in my shed, and Fay and I ride them.
Note that since this opinion of mine was developed by experience and not by debate, I can't be debated into a different position, and there are no "assumptions" being made, none at all. Folks are just going to have to understand that people can look at the same data and come to a completely different conclusion than they did, and live by that conclusion. That can be hard, I know.
YUP!!!
Lannis
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I drive way too much to have a car with carbs/points etc. anymore. My current Audi is near to 200,000 miles and runs beautifully Still looks good too.
Even I don't want to go back to points ignition systems. Not that much of a Luddite!
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At least part of it is the execution. I read, and it sums it up quite nicely in a British magazine, that it's better to have one analog setting that works rather than 15 digital one's that don't quite get it done. These things usually improve over time and successive versions.
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I've become a big fan of fuel injection. My intro to FI was rocky, my first injected bike being a DaytonaRS with its crap mapping, and my second being a quota with its factory ecu. after lots of experimenting, tweaking chips, etc. They both run well.
Made me suspect of FI.
later I had a 2005 suzuki with FI that ran flawlessly. I wondered why the Italians couldn't pull that off. Turns out they could, as was proved to me by my recently acquired 1991 Duc 907. (Shame on guzzi for shipping out bikes that way)
I test rode a GS BMW and did not like the ABS. No ABS for me.
I can't get my head around the idea of fly by wire throttles and brakes.
I ride like it's a sport, and love when I can get the perfect line through a corner. Nanny electronic controls, gyroscopes, and power modes seem like cheating.
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(http://www.notable-quotes.com/t/technology_quote_2.jpg)
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Just took a ride on one of my low tech bikes. No ECU, no carbs, no motor.
Some years I put more miles on pedaled bikes.
I drive way too much to have a car with carbs/points etc. anymore. My current Audi is near to 200,000 miles and runs beautifully Still looks good too.
2 ends of the rope, I guess.
Bob Corfield's got a firm grip on one end of that rope. He showed up at our Virginia Guzzi lunch (350 mile trip for him) on his 1000SP, which turned over 200,000 miles on the journey.
Still running points, sees no reason to change, never had any problem with them. That's some real miles.
Lannis
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Bob Corfield's got a firm grip on one end of that rope. He showed up at our Virginia Guzzi lunch (350 mile trip for him) on his 1000SP, which turned over 200,000 miles on the journey.
Still running points, sees no reason to change, never had any problem with them. That's some real miles.
Lannis
Nice, 200,000 on an SP with points. But my car is a '14
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Why fiddle with carbs OR FI?
(http://pop.h-cdn.co/assets/17/15/1492100606-screen-shot-2017-04-13-at-122253-pm.png)
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I am not trying to argue with anyone. Just relating my experiences and thoughts.
I’d like FI a whole lot more if I got substantial, indisputable, tangible benefits. It would be a totally situation if in my experience a carbed bike got me 40 mpg, but then a new-fangled FI on a similar machine got me 70 mpg. Or if instead I had been stranded numerous times due to carb issues, but never by FI.
What I instead see is about the same gas mileage, if not worse for FI. About the same driveability, but probably worse for FI. Yet carbs have never stranded me, while FI and high tech electronics have. Several times.
I’m currently wrestling to get an FI small block Guzzi to even friggin’ START, after it stranded me become of some arcane FI drama. Why? Some damn sensor or related circuit just shut down the whole show, no spark, no gas. Doesn’t seem easy to me to diagnose the problem. It runs now. But I have serious trust issues based on the supposedly “superior” FI technology that, like I said, doesn’t achieve miracles like 70 mpg.
I submit to you that a carb system would not do this to me. Yes, it might leak. Yes, it might wear and slowly get crappier gas mileage, gently telling me it needs attention. Yes, it might ask for a more extended warm up period or use of a choke. Yes, if I suddenly take a day trip from sea level Texas to Leadville, CO I might have sub-optimal fueling in Colorado. But at least it would always try to put friggin’ gas into my gas powered engine, and I’d be running on the road!! In contrast, a Prima Donna FI system might just decide it doesn’t want to play.
FI Nazi says: No gas or spark for you! Satisfy my mysterious demands.
Ok. How is that clearly and demonstrably better?
The analogy I have in mind is the the old-fashioned non-sealed chains versus the modern 0-ring chains. There is no contest. There is basically zero downside to using a modern sealed chain. It lasts vastly longer. It is no-brainer to run a sealed chain. There basically aren’t any soi disant Luddites singing the praises of non-sealed chains to the early adopters of sealed chains.
I don’t see carbs versus FI as anything like that sort of no-brainer.
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Oh well I've been corrected then, I must have been ASS-uming.
Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom and taking the time to set me straight, appreciated
No problem. :kiss:
No charge either. :wink:
But fwiw it's common comment I've found over the years so I've looked into it and statistically (lies, damn lies) seem to show the assumption isn't a good one. And that's not really surprising if you look at so many other things in life, science, physics, where you might want to assume one thing and then are surprised by the other.
But the good news is that in this endeavor we call life Humana seem to continue to make strides. Yeah we go sideways sometimes, but largely the quality of manufacturing and its results have gone up and up.
Materials, capabilities, etc.
I know this, I see this, and then I still look at my wife and ask if she REALLY wants all those features on her next car she wants to keep 10 years... Cause it's so easy to think the other way.
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On a car, I want whatever it takes to go 100k between tune-ups, satisfy the eco crowd, get me 400+ hp and get me 30mpg in the process. On my bike, I want fuel injection, cruise would be nice, a useful power curve and constant throttle response. I have no need for automatic suspension or transmission, ride modes, a configurable digital dash, or wheelie control. In my opinion, the rider should control his machine.
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This much!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49081711142_00f83d54ea_b.jpg)
I nearly bought a Super Cub. Now Honda have made exactly what Jude and I need for back lane cruising and I'm really incentivised to do a lap of Oz. It would just be far too easy on the Stelvio! :evil:
Pete
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I like old stuff, my Rudge is 90 years old and is a buzz to ride and own, that said it would have been cutting edge at the time, but I love new tech as well. I have my eye on the ZH2 or Rocket 3, any new bike I own must have, TFT, Cruise, phone connectivity, heated grips and big service intervals. The beauty is we can go back to simple or ramp it right up with tons of tech.
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This horse has been beaten on a multi yearly basis.
Actually looks more like a Donkey.
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And, part of the discussion is promises undelivered. The collective "we" get told every advance is the latest and greatest-often to experience just the opposite. So, naturally, the reaction becomes "what I had worked great and now this?!"
Doctoral topic indeed!
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Security keys (chipped keys) suck!!! Since they first popped up on cars I’d hazard a guess that car and motorcycle thefts haven’t dropped at all
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No problem. :kiss:
No charge either. :wink:
But fwiw it's common comment I've found over the years so I've looked into it and statistically (lies, damn lies) seem to show the assumption isn't a good one. And that's not really surprising if you look at so many other things in life, science, physics, where you might want to assume one thing and then are surprised by the other.
But the good news is that in this endeavor we call life Humana seem to continue to make strides. Yeah we go sideways sometimes, but largely the quality of manufacturing and its results have gone up and up.
Materials, capabilities, etc.
I know this, I see this, and then I still look at my wife and ask if she REALLY wants all those features on her next car she wants to keep 10 years... Cause it's so easy to think the other way.
I hear where you're coming from, but God help you if you spend 20k on a new motorcycle with all the whistles and bells and you get the Lemon (or worse you buy the second hand lemon with none of the warranty.)
Statisically there is no doubt that stuff is getting better and more reliable, but, and it applies a lot more to motorcycles than cars that rogue bikes still exist. Motorcycle volumes are far lower and, here anyway, the trade is nowhere near as slick or under the same scrutiny as it is with car manufacture.
Just 2 days back a guy I know just bought an electric Jag which broke down, probably less than a few months old. Turns out it developed an unexplained voltage spike. Blew the high Voltage fuses, fried several batteries, and blew quite a bit of the low voltage circuitry for good measure too. He's fine it's brand new he's just gotta decide if he wants a brand new one from the factory or use the UK's version of your Lemon Laws.
What happens though if it developed that same fault outta warranty?
If you do get the lemon you'll probably not be able to fix it yourself and even the shop might not, and you'll be in a circle of pain trying to put it right and no doubt spend time and effort arguing with the manufacturer.
I'd just rather not take the chance that's all, when it comes to motorcycles the older tech has all I need and I can understand the machine take it apart and (probably) fix it. A modern machine I won't have the diagnostic tools or know how, so I get it to the shop, pay 70-90 GBP pr hour for a mechanic's time and pray he knows what he is doing.
Thanks but no thanks Kev you walk your street and I'll walk mine, but I'm not going to be nipping out to purchase a new overpriced, overpowered, overcomplex, oversize plastic training shoe anytime soon
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I hear where you're coming from, but God help you if you spend 20k on a new motorcycle with all the whistles and bells and you get the Lemon (or worse you buy the second hand lemon with none of the warranty.)
Statisically there is no doubt that stuff is getting better and more reliable, but, and it applies a lot more to motorcycles than cars that rogue bikes still exist. Motorcycle volumes are far lower and, here anyway, the trade is nowhere near as slick or under the same scrutiny as it is with car manufacture.
Just 2 days back a guy I know just bought an electric Jag which broke down, probably less than a few months old. Turns out it developed an unexplained voltage spike. Blew the high Voltage fuses, fried several batteries, and blew quite a bit of the low voltage circuitry for good measure too. He's fine it's brand new he's just gotta decide if he wants a brand new one from the factory or use the UK's version of your Lemon Laws.
What happens though if it developed that same fault outta warranty?
If you do get the lemon you'll probably not be able to fix it yourself and even the shop might not, and you'll be in a circle of pain trying to put it right and no doubt spend time and effort arguing with the manufacturer.
I'd just rather not take the chance that's all, when it comes to motorcycles the older tech has all I need and I can understand the machine take it apart and (probably) fix it. A modern machine I won't have the diagnostic tools or know how, so I get it to the shop, pay 70-90 GBP pr hour for a mechanic's time and pray he knows what he is doing.
Thanks but no thanks Kev you walk your street and I'll walk mine, but I'm not going to be nipping out to purchase a new overpriced, overpowered, overcomplex, oversize plastic training shoe anytime soon
Fair enough.
Everytime I buy a new vehicle, appliance, or pricey electronics device they ask me if I want to buy an extended warranty.
This is where I inform them that I don't and have never and once listed my lifelong trend of not buying warranties on a spread sheet and figured out that over my life I've already saved enough to buy a Land Rover (or Jag) new for cash so IF said thing breaks out of warranty I'm still ahead and I'm not gonna worry about it.
Ymmv it's all good.
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Security keys (chipped keys) suck!!! Since they first popped up on cars I’d hazard a guess that car and motorcycle thefts haven’t dropped at all
Excellent point. BMW’s defective antenna sensing rings for their anti-theft keys stranded me twice on an F800. After being towed to the dealer the second time, I told them I did not want this feature. Remove it or disable it. I would gladly accept the risk of theft but I want to be able to rely on my bike starting.
I was told it was impossible to remove or disable it.
Hmmm. I never wanted that “feature” and all it ever accomplished was repeated and significant hassle to me. And the bonus was I can’t get rid of it either.
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Reading this and the other thread, it’s clear there’s at least one more item of “technology” I don’t want to buy even the slightest bit - chipped keys and alarm systems.
Or locking gas caps for that matter... virtually the only time the keys on my bikes come out of the ignition is to buy gas, and I’d prefer never to remove them for that purpose. I’ll take an conventionally keyed ignition lock for the occasions when it’s useful, but don’t need more ‘security’.
Please, somebody get all this crap off our new motorcycles.
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I submit to you that a carb system would not do this to me. Yes, it might leak. Yes, it might wear and slowly get crappier gas mileage, gently telling me it needs attention. Yes, it might ask for a more extended warm up period or use of a choke. Yes, if I suddenly take a day trip from sea level Texas to Leadville, TX I might have sub-optimal fueling in Colorado. But at least it would always try to put friggin’ gas into my gas powered engine, and I’d be running on the road!! In contrast, a Prima Donna FI system might just decide it doesn’t want to play.
Exactly! Analog wears out slowly over time, giving you ample warning it needs attention. With digital, it's all or nothing. If your lucky on a very new bike, it might have some type of "limp home" mode where you can putt-putt along at 15 mph across the Arizona desert. It's the same in aviation. I always told people "computers ruined airplanes." Analog would give you subtle warnings it was time to have something checked by the mechanics. With digital, the slightest voltage transient would throw a warning light, almost always a false alarm, but you still had to get it checked out. Analog systems are much more forgiving.