Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Peter from Sch'dy on December 24, 2019, 10:23:34 AM
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Hello and happy holidays,
I bought some Motul 7100 10w-60 to replace the no longer available agip product. The Motul is an ester based lube and in the old days you needed to flush out the old mineral based oil before switching to ester. Anyone know if this is still the case?
Thanks,
Peter
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Not necessary. Drain and fill. If the oil level gets low add any quality oil if your preferred lube is not available.
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Motul is very limited on actual ester content. Its really not very different from agip. I have switched from ester based to other synthetics with no harm done including motul.
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Motul 7100
100% Ester
Can be mixed with synthetic or mineral lubricants.
STANDARDS API SN / SM / SL / SJ / SH / SG
SPECIFICATION JASO MA2 under N° M033MOT119
Suitable for specific KTM, HUSQVARNA, MOTO GUZZI engines requiring SAE 10W-60 viscosity grade
oil.
https://d23zpyj32c5wn3.cloudfront.net/images/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/68486/7100_4T_10W-60_%28GB%29.pdf?1503539914
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I used AGIP then ENI in my Guzzis because it was the originally recommended oil. But the manual also says that any quality oil meeting the specs can be used, so (a bit cheaper and always available on line) I've been using the Motul 7100.
All that means is that the Motul is what I chose to use. The Stelvio has only been 10,000 miles or so on it. It probably would have done that on re-refined SAE 30 meant for lawnmowers .... !
Lannis
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Hello and happy holidays,
I bought some Motul 7100 10w-60 to replace the no longer available agip product. The Motul is an ester based lube and in the old days you needed to flush out the old mineral based oil before switching to ester. Anyone know if this is still the case?
Thanks,
Peter
That is the oil my dealer supplied for my V7iii for its first service
I let them supply the consumables so I knew what to use for the rest of its life.
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Unless you regularly sit in stop-n-go traffic in sub Sahara Africa XX-60W oil is probably overkill. Lots of folks also lead to believe the higher the cost of the oil the better it is and no way stuff readily avalaible anywhere engine oil s sold can be effective.
Fortunately you can find some extremely good oils that meet or exceed manufacturers specs for around $22 a gallon. Also not uncommon to find $10 rebates on these gallons making it extremely cost effective for high quality oil.
But if sending $50 to $70 for a gallon of oil give you peace of mind go for it!
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Unless you regularly sit in stop-n-go traffic in sub Sahara Africa XX-60W oil is probably overkill. Lots of folks also lead to believe the higher the cost of the oil the better it is and no way stuff readily avalaible anywhere engine oil s sold can be effective.
Fortunately you can find some extremely good oils that meet or exceed manufacturers specs for around $22 a gallon. Also not uncommon to find $10 rebates on these gallons making it extremely cost effective for high quality oil.
But if sending $50 to $70 for a gallon of oil give you peace of mind go for it!
I am all ears if you can find oil that exceeds the manufacturers spec for $22/gal. Part of the spec is 10-60 for these Guzzis, 15-50 for my Duc.
We can down that diesel oil rabbit hole again.
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I am all ears if you can find oil that exceeds the manufacturers spec for $22/gal. Part of the spec is 10-60 for these Guzzis, 15-50 for my Duc.
We can down that diesel oil rabbit hole again.
I stated 60W is probably overkill. Heck the original big & small blocks called for 20W-50 is that because 10W-60 was not a thing yet or did they find that they really require 10W-60? Or was it simpler to have one oil weight across the entire Guzzi lineup? My 1100 Griso spec'ed 10W-60 but other 1100 Guzzis called for 20W-50. They share the same 2v pushrod motor.
I'd bet that if you put 15W-50 or 20W-50 in your modern Guzzi there would be absolutly zero negative effect as long as the oil met or exceeded the API, ACEA, ILSAC and/or JASO spec.
As for oils labeled as "diesel" or "motorcycle" those are just buzz words on the front of the container. The real info is on the back of the container where the specs are.
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10W-60 is probably speced for fuel efficiency. The lighter the oil, supposedly better economy. Have you seen the 0W-XX oils out now? My Hydro is speced for 5W-40, but that was to get it flowing quick in cold weather for the lifters.
For the OP, JMHO, I would just change the oil and be on my way. No special flushing needed.
Tom
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I have heard it's not good to put synthetic oil in old bikes, this was born out when a lady friend took her Honda Nighthawk in and the mechanic
filled it up with synthetic. Oil dripped out of a couple of "O" ring seals and I had a devil of a job to get it oil tight again.
I had thought about switching my 72 Eldorado, it has after all the same bearing shells used in 2000 model bikes but I will stick to Shell Rotella for that.
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The reason 10-60 is required is due to the increased heat due to leaner mixtures required for emissions.
The reason for 0 weight oils is due to tighter tolerances and fuel mileage. Race engines are using 0 weight oils due to tighter tolerances and it makes a tick more power.
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I have no idea why anyone would think a factory spec in not the one to go with.
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I have no idea why anyone would think a factory spec in not the one to go with.
This .
The reason 10-60 is required is due to the increased heat due to leaner mixtures required for emissions.
The reason for 0 weight oils is due to tighter tolerances and fuel mileage. Race engines are using 0 weight oils due to tighter tolerances and it makes a tick more power.
And this
Dusty
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Not necessary. Drain and fill. If the oil level gets low add any quality oil if your preferred lube is not available.
^^^ THIS ^^^
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I stated 60W is probably overkill. Heck the original big & small blocks called for 20W-50 is that because 10W-60 was not a thing yet or did they find that they really require 10W-60? Or was it simpler to have one oil weight across the entire Guzzi lineup? My 1100 Griso spec'ed 10W-60 but other 1100 Guzzis called for 20W-50. They share the same 2v pushrod motor.
I'd bet that if you put 15W-50 or 20W-50 in your modern Guzzi there would be absolutly zero negative effect as long as the oil met or exceeded the API, ACEA, ILSAC and/or JASO spec.
As for oils labeled as "diesel" or "motorcycle" those are just buzz words on the front of the container. The real info is on the back of the container where the specs are.
I am still looking for that $22/gal 15-50 oil.
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Clearly there are a few here who have little experience with extreme cold ( think northern Alberta ) :) 0 weight oils have
been out for decades (early 80s for sure ) . Anything thicker than 0 weight oils simply did not pour from the cans in the winter
up there , running joke about the higher viscosity ratings was how well it protected the inside of the can . :wink: , Peter
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I am still looking for that $22/gal 15-50 oil.
Just checked the internet and the price seems to be $3.47 more than when I bought a month ago. I'll have to check instore to veriy the price. Either way the new 2019 rebates are rolled out it'll be less way less than $22 or $25.47 per gallon. Recenlty the rebate was for as much as $15 off a 5 quart jug. Typically its $10.
The oil I am refering too meet or exceeds - API SN, SM, SL, SJ ACEA A3/B3 and quality level API CF.
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Back when na$car used qualifying engines they built them to very tight tolerances with small main and rod bearings and ran 0 wt oil.
And that was using flat lifters.
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I am all ears if you can find oil that exceeds the manufacturers spec for $22/gal. Part of the spec is 10-60 for these Guzzis, 15-50 for my Duc.
We can down that diesel oil rabbit hole again.
You can get 15-50 Mobile full synthetic, heavy duty at Walmart for 22 bucks a gallon. I have used it for years with no adverse effects noted on several of my bikes.
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The Guzzi gurus all say use 10W60 on late model Guzzi. They have stated why, many times.
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Is this the last oil thread of the decade?
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The Guzzi gurus all say use 10W60 on late model Guzzi. They have stated why, many times.
Please post any or all the links with actual scientific data and not personal opinion.
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Pete says to use 10W60 in the new Big Blocks and gave a detailed explanation as to why . Always kinda figured he knows more than most of us about these motors than most of us , since it's how he makes his living .
Dusty
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Just checked the internet and the price seems to be $3.47 more than when I bought a month ago. I'll have to check instore to veriy the price. Either way the new 2019 rebates are rolled out it'll be less way less than $22 or $25.47 per gallon. Recenlty the rebate was for as much as $15 off a 5 quart jug. Typically its $10.
The oil I am refering too meet or exceeds - API SN, SM, SL, SJ ACEA A3/B3 and quality level API CF.
it would be nice if the oil you're referring to had a name. It should also exceed JASO MA2 and API SG for 15W-50 wt. None was mentioned.
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Pete says to use 10W60 in the new Big Blocks and gave a detailed explanation as to why . Always kinda figured he knows more than most of us about these motors than most of us , since it's how he makes his living .
Dusty
Ask Darren.
I think he posted it. Said that the oil light came on when the bike was serviced with 20-50 conventional on one his past CARCs. Light went off when replaced with the right oil. I was skeptical too before he told me. i am not going to screw around with my Ducati over $20 difference.
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it would be nice if the oil you're referring to had a name. It should also exceed JASO MA2 and API SG for 15W-50 wt. None was mentioned.
Seem now these late model Guzzi's need modern 10W-60 oil but also require SG (see below in red) rated oil. Yes it does state Automotive engines but does a motor know if its in motorcycle, car or truck engine?
SN Current
Introduced in October 2010, designed to provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.
SM Current
For 2010 and older automotive engines.
SL Current
For 2004 and older automotive engines.
SJ Current
For 2001 and older automotive engines.
SH Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1996. May not provide adequate protection against build-up of engine sludge, oxidation, or wear.
SG Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1993. May not provide adequate protection against build-up of engine sludge, oxidation, or wear.
SF Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1988. May not provide adequate protection against build-up of engine sludge.
SE Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1979.
SD Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1971. Use in more modern engines may cause unsatisfactory performance or equipment harm.
SC Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1967. Use in more modern engines may cause unsatisfactory performance or equipment harm.
SB Obsolete
CAUTION: Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1951. Use in more modern engines may cause unsatisfactory performance or equipment harm.
SA Obsolete
CAUTION: Contains no additives. Not suitable for use in most gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1930. Use in modern engines may cause unsatisfactory performance or equipment harm.
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Ask Darren.
I think he posted it. Said that the oil light came on when the bike was serviced with 20-50 conventional on one his past CARCs. Light went off when replaced with the right oil. I was skeptical too before he told me. i am not going to screw around with my Ducati over $20 difference.
Your original post you were "all ears" for suitable oil that costs $22 but now your sticking with something thats $44. Would you have ever switched or were you just trying to toss a little blood in the water to see if this could turn into a full on oil thread?
Honestly I think you should use $80 a quart oil in your Ducati if that makes you feel better. You certainly do not have to spend lots of money to get great that will work extremely well in any ICB engine but if price gives you peace of mind go for it.
Ok i'll ax.........Darren what say ye'?
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Peraz----
You're all wet. Sorry. You're adding nothing but BS. SG rating is important for legacy motorcycles- that's the standard with high zinc levels (ZDDP). It was obsolete in late model cars with low friction gas mileage engines and catalytic converters but the oil offers less internal protection. The JAS MA2 is likewise motorcycle specific standard.
Having said all that, I'm not here to debate which standards are good or bad. I was just calling your bluff if you can tell us what $22 oil meets the weight and standards specified by the manufacturer. I am not here to debate if the standards are correct or not.
I am not saying the cheaper oil won't work and provide no problems but that wasn't the question. I know riders that have been using Rotella for years and it might be fine. But I am not taking the risk my Ducati and want SG/MA2 for my other bikes. If you can get 15-50 for $22, let's hear it. Until then, I am done with the conversation.
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Peraz----
You're all wet. Sorry. You're adding nothing but BS. SG rating is important for legacy motorcycles- that's the standard with high zinc levels (ZDDP). It was obsolete in late model cars with low friction gas mileage engines and catalytic converters but the oil offers less internal protection. The JAS MA2 is likewise motorcycle specific standard.
Having said all that, I'm not here to debate which standards are good or bad. I was just calling your bluff if you can tell us what $22 oil meets the weight and standards specified by the manufacturer. I am not here to debate if the standards are correct or not.
I am not saying the cheaper oil won't work and provide no problems but that wasn't the question. I know riders that have been using Rotella for years and it might be fine. But I am not taking the risk my Ducati and want SG/MA2 for my other bikes. If you can get 15-50 for $22, let's hear it. Until then, I am done with the conversation.
So the modern Guzzi engine with roller lifters and caytalic converters require the high zinc content as are in SG rated oils?
I've never perused a 4V Guzzi owners manual does if give oil weight ranges becuse of temeratures or is it 10W-60 and nothgin else no matter if the temerature is -20 or 120 degrees?
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<sigh>
Look , just run the weight and spec of oil the manufacturer calls for , these oil threads always deteriorate into what we are seeing here . If price is a concern , buy a cheaper older motorbike . Attempting to save a few bucks on oil after spending big money on a new or even a used motorbike is a false economy . There are reasons the manufacturers spec a certain weight of oil , arguing with that is just silly .
Dusty
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The JASO MA spec limits maximum ZDDP @ 800 - 1200 ppm. See page 5, table 4.
The JASO MA spec is mostly referenced for motorcycles with wet clutches (JASO T 903).
Source:
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1904.pdf (http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1904.pdf)
California 1400 owner's manual. In several other sections, the manual states "use a high quality 10W-60 motor oil"
Note that some of the later year-model owner's manuals specify Castrol oil products.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49281461593_b59c84158d_b.jpg)
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There is only one reason manufacturers mention brands of oil.
They get paid to do so.
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The 1400 gear oil spec is interesting. It's like a Loop 4spd. GL4 for the transmission (the part you shift) and GL5 for the rear end.
Tom
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The 1400 gear oil spec is interesting. It's like a Loop 4spd. GL4 for the transmission (the part you shift) and GL5 for the rear end.
Tom
I was thinking that something got lost in the translation. "Transmission" refers to the shaft drive pumpkin, or does it ?
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There is only one reason manufacturers mention brands of oil.
They get paid to do so.
This is true , you just need to match specs .
Dusty
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Sorry it took so long for my reply. My question was answered early in the thread and if my delayed response contributed to the oil thread rancor, please accept my apology. I'm using it in a 2 valve Norge which has used agip \ENI from new. Currently has 96000 miles.
Best Regards,
Peter
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I was thinking that something got lost in the translation. "Transmission" refers to the shaft drive pumpkin, or does it ?
I might/probably have it backward for the 1400. Need the capacity to be sure.
Tom
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I was thinking that something got lost in the translation. "Transmission" refers to the shaft drive pumpkin, or does it ?
I think that's correct for my old Guzzis.
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Interesting there are a number of oils that meet or exceed the Moto Guzzi's specified API CCMC G-4 rating. Whats really interesting is this rating is not oil weight specific! So does the 10W-60 matter or does using an oil the meets or exceeds API CCMC G-4 matter no matter what weigh the oil is?
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Peraz----
You're all wet. Sorry. You're adding nothing but BS. SG rating is important for legacy motorcycles- that's the standard with high zinc levels (ZDDP). It was obsolete in late model cars with low friction gas mileage engines and catalytic converters but the oil offers less internal protection. The JAS MA2 is likewise motorcycle specific standard.
Having said all that, I'm not here to debate which standards are good or bad. I was just calling your bluff if you can tell us what $22 oil meets the weight and standards specified by the manufacturer. I am not here to debate if the standards are correct or not.
I am not saying the cheaper oil won't work and provide no problems but that wasn't the question. I know riders that have been using Rotella for years and it might be fine. But I am not taking the risk my Ducati and want SG/MA2 for my other bikes. If you can get 15-50 for $22, let's hear it. Until then, I am done with the conversation.
Agreed. How do you expect us to save money if you won't tell us what brand and where to buy the lower cost oil that is "just as good"!!!
So far you are just blowing smoke!!
Dan
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Agreed. How do you expect us to save money if you won't tell us what brand and where to buy the lower cost oil that is "just as good"!!!
So far you are just blowing smoke!!
Dan
Any comment on the question about which is more important API CCMC G-4 rating or weight?
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Any comment on the question about which is more important API CCMC G-4 rating or weight?
Both are important .
Dusty
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Both are important .
Dusty
So which one is more important?
The manual as posted states:
SAE 10W-60. As an alternative for recommended oils, top-branded oils that meet or exceed the requirement of CCMC G-4 SG specification can be used.
So if SAE 10W-60 is not avalaible and if an alternative is to be used as long as it meet or exceeds CCMC G-4 rating per the manual its okay to use. The manual makes no mention of what weight the "alternate" oil is to be only that it meets a rating. Oils that meet or exceed CCMC G-4 ratings come in different weights.
Also do modern Guzzi engine with roller lifters and caytalic converters require the high zinc content as are in SG rated oils?
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So which one is more important?
The manual as posted states:
SAE 10W-60. As an alternative for recommended oils, top-branded oils that meet or exceed the requirement of CCMC G-4 SG specification can be used.
So if SAE 10W-60 is not avalaible and if an alternative is to be used as long as it meet or exceeds CCMC G-4 rating per the manual its okay to use. The manual makes no mention of what weight the "alternate" oil is to be only that it meets a rating. Oils that meet or exceed CCMC G-4 ratings come in different weights.
Also do modern Guzzi engine with roller lifters and caytalic converters require the high zinc content as are in SG rated oils?
Alternate brands , not alternate weights .
Dusty
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Alternate brands , not alternate weights .
Dusty
So you're saying the alternate for 10W-60 IS 10W-60 :huh:
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Anything other than 10-60 is only in a pinch. Using other than 10-60 regularly can and most likely will void the warranty.
YMMV
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Anything other than 10-60 is only in a pinch. Using other than 10-60 regularly can and most likely will void the warranty.
YMMV
How can using an oil that is acceptable by the manufacture going to void a warranty? Guzzi flat out states oils that meet or exceed CCMC G-4 ratings are acceptable.
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<SIGH>
Dusty
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I read it as alternate brands-not weights.
I saw a tech bulletin dated quite a while ago to dealers informing them that the 1100 motors like my Jackal were now recommended for 10-60 as a supersede to the old recommendation. I did NOT pay attention to all the years listed as only 2001 mattered to me.
Dusty, I'm not sure what you meant with the comments directed to me.
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I know this stuff gets crazy so I'll muck it up some more. The car oil thing and wet clutches. I read a LOT how riders NEVER have issues with the clutch and car oil (obviously shared I realize, as do you) but yet I'm in shops and often see a clutch apart to be serviced as car oil has mucked it up. I also see TONS of snowmobile carbs apart in summer getting the E10 gunk cleaned out that others swear that they NEVER use stabilized gas and never have an issue. What to do, I ask, or believe? (Don't answer, it's a oratorical question).
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I read it as alternate brands-not weights.
I saw a tech bulletin dated quite a while ago to dealers informing them that the 1100 motors like my Jackal were now recommended for 10-60 as a supersede to the old recommendation. I did NOT pay attention to all the years listed as only 2001 mattered to me.
Dusty, I'm not sure what you meant with the comments directed to me.
Looks like I was agreeing with you .
Dusty
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Quote from: Perazzimx14 on Today at 11:11:31 AM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103911.msg1646415#msg1646415)How can using an oil that is acceptable by the manufacture going to void a warranty? Guzzi flat out states oils that meet or exceed CCMC G-4 ratings are acceptable.
Go back and read what I wrote.
To save the trouble Guzzi says to use 10-60. Other viscosity oils can meet or exceed that spec except in viscosity. You must use the proper viscosity as well as the proper type. 10-50 will not work as well as 10-60 in high heat situations. The 10-50 will not maintain viscosity.
As for wet clutches they get gummed up by using "energy conserving" oils which contain added molybdenum to make up for reduced zddp. If the container has the energy conserving "starburst" on the label don't use it with a wet clutch. This is usually on oils of 10-30 or thinner.
Most bikes with wet clutches require 10-40 and usually they don't have the added moly. Read the labels.
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Go back and read what I wrote.
To save the trouble Guzzi says to use 10-60. Other viscosity oils can meet or exceed that spec except in viscosity. You must use the proper viscosity as well as the proper type. 10-50 will not work as well as 10-60 in high heat situations. The 10-50 will not maintain viscosity.
He already knows that. Should be easy by now to spot someone who's talking BS just to "keep the party going" .....
Lannis
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He already knows that. Should be easy by now to spot someone who's talking BS just to "keep the party going" .....
Lannis
This
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Quote from: Perazzimx14 on Today at 11:11:31 AM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103911.msg1646415#msg1646415)How can using an oil that is acceptable by the manufacture going to void a warranty? Guzzi flat out states oils that meet or exceed CCMC G-4 ratings are acceptable.
Go back and read what I wrote.
To save the trouble Guzzi says to use 10-60. Other viscosity oils can meet or exceed that spec except in viscosity. You must use the proper viscosity as well as the proper type. 10-50 will not work as well as 10-60 in high heat situations. The 10-50 will not maintain viscosity.
As for wet clutches they get gummed up by using "energy conserving" oils which contain added molybdenum to make up for reduced zddp. If the container has the energy conserving "starburst" on the label don't use it with a wet clutch. This is usually on oils of 10-30 or thinner.
Most bikes with wet clutches require 10-40 and usually they don't have the added moly. Read the labels.
Also go back and read where I stated that 10W-60 unless sitting in s-n-g traffic in sub-Sahara Africa the "60" probably never comes into play. I'm not arguing 10W-60 will withstand higher temperatures than xxW-50 but how often do you think you engine came close to using the 60?
The 10W-40 in bikes with wet clutches is partially correct however there are wet clutch bikes that call for 10W-40 or 20W50 like the DR650 depending on what temperature range you are in. In fact most bike have a list of different weight oils acceptable depending on what temperature you are general in. There is a lot of overlap so if you venture into another temperature range you are covered. Interesting that Guzzi can run the weight and viscosity oil no matter if it -20 or +115.
Also feel free to answer the question do modern Guzzi engine with roller lifters and caytalic converters require the high zinc content as are in SG rated AND specified oils?"
Party on!
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Personally, I get the "Extra Virgin" oil - and I always try to get the "ROBUST" type.
Nothing is too good for my Guzzi !
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49298758476_eaa3a01e77_b.jpg)
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I use Fuchs Silkolene Pro 10W-60 with Liqui Moly Ceratec additive for my 2006 Breva 750. Way better than anything else...
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I use Fuchs Silkolene Pro 10W-60 with Liqui Moly Ceratec additive for my 2006 Breva 750. Way better than anything else...
Years ago my old Brit Bikes liked Silkolene .
Dusty