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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vince in Milwaukee on December 24, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
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Looking to tap the collective wisdom of the group here. My car is a 2005 Buick LeSabre. While running errands yesterday, the red brake warning light came on. Upon inspection this morning, I found my master cylinder was way low. Filled it back up to the line with the correct DOT 3 fluid. Well, the warning light is off, but now the pedal goes all the way to the floor and the brakes don't work at all! :grin: Since brakes aren't my strong suit, I may be having it towed to the shop. Just wondering; did I get air in the system (quite likely), has my master cylinder given up the ghost, etc...? Seeing how the car has @150,000 miles and is now 15 years old, I try not to get too upset about things like this. Being that I'm rather cheap (Guzzi content), this beats a car payment any day of the week.
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Vince,
Having owned several cars that survived 15 years in WI, my bet would be on a rusted through brake line. Check for spots on the garage floor where the car was parked.
Gene
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Later model GM trucks are noted for rusted brake lines..I believe there was a class action law suit.....Buick is GM so as said above, rusted brake lines are a possibiity...
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Yup. Ruptured brake line is #1 by a mile. In addition to the parking spot puddles, check the inner side of the tires for brake fluid splatter.
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Or you may have just sucked some air into the system that was pushed farther in by adding fluid . Try bleeding the brakes first .
Dusty
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It sounds like maybe you never check the brake fluid? As the brakes wear the calipers require more fluid to operate the brakes. Hence it requires brake fluid from the master cylinder. So it is possible you just never filled you MC in time and like Dusty said you have air in the line. If you have a leak from a rusted line just fill the MC with fluid and let it sit on concrete floor and check for leaks. Leave to cap off the MC to make it easier for the hole to leak. I will leak just sitting there but pumping the peddle will sure find the leak even with air in the line. Otherwise get someone to pump the pedal and you start bleeding. Start at the left front and then right front. Move to the back left and then the right back side. If you have a leak it will reveal itself.
I just put new calipers in the front of my 4X4. After I got done bleeding all 4 wheels my brake light and ABS light were still on. There is a little switch in the master cylinder that got stuck. I very gently hit it with a rubber mallet and the lights went off.
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Definitely get it towed over trying to drive it to a shop.
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Its' broke, throw it away. Its' just a car.
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Just got home from taking the girlfriend out to lunch in HER car. Yup, big ole puddle of brake fluid under the rear passenger side. Looks like my car will be getting a tow to the shop right after Christmas.
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The front brakes on my 99 Regal failed on the way to the grocery store one night. I turned around and parked at my house.
A few days later I was moving it into position to determine what was wrong and the rear brakes failed also.
Both brake lines had rust holes. It was the first time I'd had that happen to one of my vehicles, but it was also the first time I had one that had spent most of its life in the rust belt (Columbus.)
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Just got home from taking the girlfriend out to lunch in HER car. Yup, big ole puddle of brake fluid under the rear passenger side. Looks like my car will be getting a tow to the shop right after Christmas.
That puddle would be a good clue Vince :grin:
Dusty
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Dimes to donuts it's a brake line to the rear; which means if you push hard, you'll blow a rusty front line as well.
Possibility is that it's the rear cylinders leaking (if it has drum brakes) But as everyone else has said, you live in the rust belt and it's a serious consideration to just throw the car away. Repairing brake lines is a fool's errand.
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This happened to me on a couple cars, why don’t they make brake lines from stainless or something else that won’t rust?
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This happened to me on a couple cars, why don’t they make brake lines from stainless or something else that won’t rust?
Price, nothing else.
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Price, nothing else.
And encouraging owners to discard their cars when they rust out.
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This is actually a pretty simple straight forward repair. Finding someone with the skills to do it can prove challenging.
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Being a Guzzi owner, you should have no trouble fixing it yourself. They sell brake lines at the auto parts store. Get the correct size flare wrench and replace them. There may be problems removing the lines and freeing up the bleeders though if they're also rusty.
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Sounds like a rear brake wheel cylinder has failed if you have rear drums. If it has failed, then change the cylinder and the pads on both sides, bleed the system as most likely you have air in the lines. Could be anything from a wheel cylinder to a brake line, hard to say until you get into it.
Old Head.
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Dimes to donuts it's a brake line to the rear; which means if you push hard, you'll blow a rusty front line as well.
Possibility is that it's the rear cylinders leaking (if it has drum brakes) But as everyone else has said, you live in the rust belt and it's a serious consideration to just throw the car away. Repairing brake lines is a fool's errand.
Really sorry to hear this as I just spent $400 for 4 new tires. So you're saying that it's not worth the cost / trouble to replace the bad lines? It seems that all of the lines will need to be replaced if I go that route. Maybe I need to get out now before I throw more $ away. Can't seem to find a good used car that I like. :sad:
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Well, I would fix it unless the car very rusted or the drive train is in need of major repairs, but that's me. I find it cheaper to repair and keep driving rather than buy someone else' problems with a used car. At least you know what is fixed and don't have to worry about it in the future.
Old Head
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I went to the local salvage yard and bought ALL of the brake & fuel lines from the firewall back for $50.
Fortunately, there was a donor car with the engine/transmission already removed, which made it much easier to remove the lines.
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That puddle would be a good clue Vince :grin:
Dusty
If the puddle is in front of the tire then it's in the brake line. If it is coming off the rear wheel cylinder then the puddle will be right next to the tire and you might even see where it leaked out down the tire.
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I did this job last year on the main front brake line on my GMC plow truck in February out in the snow not fun.
It's really not that big a job, but as others have pointed out, the hardest part is getting the rusty fittings apart without causing more damage.
If you can locate the point of the leak, follow the line to the fittings at either end, I'd be soaking them and the appropriate bleeding screw with atf/acetone or similar asap so they'll come apart for you.
If you keep the m/c reservoir topped up with fluid to keep as much air out of the system as possible it will make for an easier job, usually a standard pre-made brake line can be bent to fit.
Good luck
Kelly
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Quote from: nc43bsa on Today at 07:55:15 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103913.msg1645739#msg1645739)I went to the local salvage yard and bought ALL of the brake & fuel lines from the firewall back for $50.
Fortunately, there was a donor car with the engine/transmission already removed, which made it much easier to remove the lines.
You bought old, unknown quality brake lines? Do you have a death wish?
New lines are not expensive. This is not a place to be cheap.
I just had this done on my 05 Taurus. About $300. New OEM lines.
That's much less than one car payment and you know the new lines won't blow out.
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Since I live in the rust belt, and have sworn off buying cars new, I have needed to replace brake lines on several cars. The stuck fittings are the worst problem with the job. Doing it myself though, I can easily justify buying the connected components new. Generally having the intent to keep the vehicles for the long term makes it easier to replace an otherwise good caliper or wheel cylinder. Drum brake cylinders are so cheap replacing them is a no brainer financially. For an added bonus, lifetime warranty components are usually available. With all new components, the job becomes much easier. Instead of buying pre-bent replacement lines, I have always opted for lacing bulk tubing through the vehicle, cutting to length and installing flair fittings at either end. It's not as hard as it might seem, and removal of the old line is not necessary. Stainless, coated steel and copper alloy bulk tubing are all available. I opt for the copper alloy as it offers good corrosion resistance and is quite easy to form as you lace it through the vehicle. All new lines need to be properly retained so they can't be damaged by road debris.
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You bought old, unknown quality brake lines? Do you have a death wish?New lines are not expensive. This is not a place to be cheap.I just had this done on my 05 Taurus. About $300. New OEM lines.That's much less than one car payment and you know the new lines won't blow out.
The car I pulled the lines from was completely rust-free, and the OEM brake lines were not available from GM.
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What did those lines look like from the inside? Brake systems develop moisture over time.
I wish you good luck.
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Well, I would fix it unless the car very rusted or the drive train is in need of major repairs, but that's me. I find it cheaper to repair and keep driving rather than buy someone else' problems with a used car. At least you know what is fixed and don't have to worry about it in the future.
Old Head
Thank you for the positive encouragement. It's still a very nice car with just some minimal rust around the rear passenger side wheel well. Word has it that the 3.8L V6 is an old work horse and is good for a lot of miles. I've shied away from getting a new car as they have so much electronic crap on them.
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Been there more times then I can count. When you live in the rust belt, added to the new salt mixes they use on the roads, anything over 10 years old is go start rotting away under you.. Replacing the lines are not a hard job... but can be a bit of a pain in the butt. Small old school independent shop would be your best bet to do it IMHO. Haveing worked at a dealer for 25 years ive seen that most new car tech's just dont have the mindset to do this kinda work.
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fix it right or junk it. your choice but why do the lines and not do the wheel cylinders too. they will be next to go and if you have my luck it will be in a month or so after the cheapo repair. same holds true for the pads and shoes. and yes find a independent shop. owner / operator who has been there for years.
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If one line has rusted through the others aren’t far behind. I have made more brake lines than I can remember. Nickel copper lines are the way to go. A simple bending fixture and a double flare flaring tool is all you need.
Larry
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Yes, it *can* be fixed. But if you have a garage do it for you, it will be expensive and the result will be questionable; brake lines demand a double flare, which demands the correct tool and a measure of expertise and practice to get right so it won't leak. Bending lines to fit properly without kinking is another challenge. I grew up in SE Michigan and cut my mechanic's teeth on rusted lines. If you love the car and can devote a few days to the project, I'd have at it. Sometimes, you find a vehicle that has only a single specific place that always rusts out while leaving the rest intact (1990's GM Yukon etc) but the only way to know is get under it with a good light and inspect everything closely. It's not something you want to fool with on a Sunday afternoon when you have to work Monday.
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Thank you for the positive encouragement. It's still a very nice car with just some minimal rust around the rear passenger side wheel well. Word has it that the 3.8L V6 is an old work horse and is good for a lot of miles. I've shied away from getting a new car as they have so much electronic crap on them.
Yup, way back in the day before big engines were available for Toyotas, the highly regarded 3.8 Buick V6 was the engine swap of choice for 4Runners & pick ups.
It sounds like you have a very nice solid old car worth keeping on the road, with new tires to boot.
For peace of mind, you may want to run all new brake lines (depending on set up, fuel lines might be a consideration as well).
Do it yourself or as others have suggested a lone mechanic or smaller garage that has the right mindset and doesn't mind getting their hands dirty, fwiw ymmv
Good luck
Kelly
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Quote from: pressureangle on Today at 01:15:55 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=103913.msg1645843#msg1645843)Yes, it *can* be fixed. But if you have a garage do it for you, it will be expensive and the result will be questionable; brake lines demand a double flare, which demands the correct tool and a measure of expertise and practice to get right so it won't leak. Bending lines to fit properly without kinking is another challenge. I grew up in SE Michigan and cut my mechanic's teeth on rusted lines. If you love the car and can devote a few days to the project, I'd have at it. Sometimes, you find a vehicle that has only a single specific place that always rusts out while leaving the rest intact (1990's GM Yukon etc) but the only way to know is get under it with a good light and inspect everything closely. It's not something you want to fool with on a Sunday afternoon when you have to work Monday.
As I wanted a few posts ago I just had this done. New OEM lines and labor was about $300. A bargain IMO.
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Repairing brake lines is a fool's errand.
What does that mean?
In the case of rusted brake lines, the remedy is to replace them.
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Sometimes, you find a vehicle that has only a single specific place that always rusts out while leaving the rest intact (1990's GM Yukon etc) but the only way to know is get under it with a good light and inspect everything closely.
in 1977, 2 weeks before I was to move from central Illinois to Warm Springs Ga for a new job I had a brake line failure at a stop light. I was barely moving when the car in front stopped. My pedal went to the floor. No damage to either car. That 61 Ford Fairlane 500 had a single master cylinder. But like pressureangle said sometimes it is in a single bad place. Ford had attached the rear brake line along the side of the main frame and then for some reason wrapped it around over the top of the frame near the back. And right in that place is where water would pool and that is the only place it had rusted through. It was an easy fix. 2 weeks later I head south to my new job. Crossing those mountains in Chattanooga I was pulling a trailer with everything I owned including my 72 Ducati GT. I thought to myself what it would have been like if the line had failed going down those mountains. I had a 3 on the tree and maybe I could have got it into 2nd gear or I would have used on of those run away truck ramps.
Fast forward to 2006 and I was returning at night to NC from a trip to Va. I inherited a 96 Grand Marquis from my father which was a Chicago car. That night the brake light came on and the pedal was a little soft but not to the floor. I pulled into a gas station and looked around. There was a leak in one of the lines. But is was very slow. I bought 5 cans of brake fluid and stopped every 30 miles or so and topped it off. Traffic was very light and I geared down and used the emergency brake to stop the car saving the reservoir. I made it home without having to put my foot on the pedal. The next morning upon looking at the brake lines it was a nightmare. There were so many lines going everywhere and most were degraded. I handed it off to a local guy who replaced them at a descent price. He had a muffler/brake shop and a lift and all the tools.
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Thank you everyone for the advice / tips / interesting stories. The car was picked up about 15 minutes ago by a flat bed tow truck. It is on the way to a local mechanic. Besides fixing the known bad brake line, all the others will be inspected. With luck, I could have my car back by tomorrow or the next day. Will keep everyone posted.
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Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes.
Tom
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What does that mean?
In the case of rusted brake lines, the remedy is to replace them.
Exactly...I have personally replaced brake lines on at least a dozen vehicles....Double flare tools are not expensive or hard to use after a bit of practice.The worse part is not having a lift and doing the job on a creeper. However, for the OP's info, I had all brake lines replaced on the 03 Chevy Silverado I owned about 4 years ago.Later truck/car lines are a bit complicated due to the anti lock brake servo unit..Total price from a reputable private garage was just about $600...Do you throw away a otherwise good vehicle for $600?
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Thank you everyone for the advice / tips / interesting stories. The car was picked up about 15 minutes ago by a flat bed tow truck. It is on the way to a local mechanic. Besides fixing the known bad brake line, all the others will be inspected. With luck, I could have my car back by tomorrow or the next day. Will keep everyone posted.
Yep , good plan . Those two know-nothings Click and Clack stated repeatedly it is always cheaper to fix what you have than to buy a new car . Then again , who would take advice from those two jokers ? :grin:
Dusty
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Yep , good plan . Those two know-nothings Click and Clack stated repeatedly it is always cheaper to fix what you have than to buy a new car . Then again , who would take advice from those two jokers ? :grin:
Dusty
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You beat me to it Dusty. I was just thinking of posting about Click and Clack. The big believers in fixing it.
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One of them passed a few years ago. I listened to them for entertainment purposes only.
kk
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Just wanted to follow up and let everyone know that my car has been fixed. A small local mom & pop shop did it for @ $500. They used the copper / nickle lines and the flare tool that were previously mentioned. I just wasn't up for even attempting this on my own. I don't have access to a garage, it's rather cold here in Wisconsin, work has been very busy, and "projects" that I attempt seem to take on a life all their own! :grin: Thanks again for the help everyone. We have a really good bunch of folks here with a lot of varied and unique knowledge.
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Since $500.00 isn't 3 car payments on a new car , if you get 6 months out of the Buick you are way ahead .
Dusty
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Word has it that the 3.8L V6 is an old work horse and is good for a lot of miles.
Buick's V6 engine is iconic. First introduced in 1962 as a development of Buick's 215 V8 (which became the Rover V8).
The V6 was sold to Jeep in 1967 and Became Jeep's "Dauntless V6". GM bought the V6 back in 1974 and it's been a mainstay ever since.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
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The durable Buick 3800 OHV engine has been out of production for 12 years years according to Internet info........The nickle copper brake lines are excellent and in theory will last a lifetime...
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I had a Buick odd fire V6 in a '53 Willys. Great engine, Buick built some of the best engines in the GM lineup.
kk