Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: greer on December 27, 2019, 06:34:02 AM
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We had a bad experience with the tube in a front tire a few years back, enough to convince me I'd just as soon avoid tubes in my road bike. So I've been pondering the methods for going tubeless on the Nevada, googling like crazy. This is a new one on me, here's a copy&paste slightly condensed version of the post:
"Sealing wire wheels to run with tubeless tires is not new and I’ve read of a lot of people who have done this, and it’s worked for them. In every instance that I’ve seen though it has involved laying a thick layer of sealant like marine grade silicone, or something similar, in the rim well or dollops of sealant on the individual nipples inside the well. This works but the thick layer of sealant makes it difficult to install the tire and one has to be very careful not to disturb the sealant during the tire mounting. The other problem that I encountered was what sealant to use. In most instances the material used was some “exotic” stuff only available in the US and unknown in my neck of the woods.
A little more research and discussion with our local sealant and adhesive distributors/manufacturers and the local Loctite guys suggested I try (no guarantees) their Loctite 290 Green product. For the equivalent of US$20.00 I bought a little 50ml bottle of the stuff.
I took the wheels and tires off and cleaned the rim wells with paint thinners. The valve holes were drilled out to 11.5mm and regular short rubber automotive tubeless valves inserted. Then I applied one drop of the Loctite 290 to each nipple thread and one drop around each nipple. This was the amount they told me to use. It was a little disconcerting at first also because you can hardly see where it’s been applied and instinctively I wanted to add more. I must admit I did but all that happened is that the sealant just ran out of the well and into the next! After that I just stuck with the one drop rule – less wastage!
After about 30 minutes I refitted the tires and checked for leaks. Nothing! Put the wheels back on the bikes and over the next week did daily pressure checks. The one kept losing front tire pressure until I realised that I hadn’t tightened the valve core enough. Did that and it was okay, whew! I have ridden both since, at least 200km each and everything looks just fine. So now my tire irons have been replaced with a tubeless repair kit (lots lighter!)"
Here's the thread, in case you want to check it out:
https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/how-i-sealed-my-wire-wheels.394594/
This is an 8 page thread and things get a little confusing with so many folks clamoring this and that, so to be clear, he applies the Loctite from the hub side. He posts follow ups in other threads and I can post some of those if anybody's interested.
Sarah
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Sounds good,I like your creative thinking, not to mention the weight savings.
To borrow an old bicycle racing meme: In terms of performance: "an ounce on the wheel is a pound on the frame".
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Very interesting. I don't see why it would necessarily have to be applied from the hub side. An up-side of this method is that if a spoke needs to be replaced or adjusted, another drop could be applied and you're done.
Loctite 290 is Green wicking permanent thread locker. It requires the same heat as Red Loctite to break the bond. If a spoke needs adjusting it could get tricky. Perhaps using Blue Loctite on the threads would be a better option.
Another thought in relation to weight and space - take into consideration the weight of the missing tube. If only the spoke wells are filled with sealant, my guess is you'd still be ahead on weight savings. Also, if only the wells are filled, tire installation wouldn't be impacted. I'd also feel much better with a secondary system retaining air than just the loctite. Back it up with silicone sealer.
When I've converted to tubeless I've converted a valve stem from an old tube. It's alread the right size. I think NAPA possibly sells the correct size to avoid reaming the hole larger.
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Sarah,
Thanks for posting! Interesting approach I would not have considered. Any follow up threads you want to post will be greatly appreciated.
At first thought it seems unworkable, but if it is working for others, that is "the proof in the pudding."
I would still be temped to follow up with some tape over the nipples on the tire side.
Downside would be if any spokes needs adjusting, after adjustment, you may need to remove the tire to re-seal any spokes that were adjusted.
It would be any interesting experiment to loosen up a few spokes, seal, inflate tire, then adjust spokes to see it tire holds. I can see the seal between the male and female threads being air tight, but between the nipple and the rim seems unlikely to hold air after turning the nipple.
Looking forward to researching this more.
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Why not use a layer of tape as well?
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Why not use a layer of tape as well?
I did that and the centrifugal (sic) force dislodged the tape, it rolled into a ball and rendered the tyre out of balance.
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I did the wheels of my 72 Eldorado with good results, its been well over two years now. My first attempt I applied a circle of Duct tape cut out with a hollow punch over each nipple but I scrapped that idea and now use just the GE General purpose silicone that comes in a small squeeze tube. However I have a friend who has spent his working life as an Auto Glazer, he tells me that I should have used the stuff they use to hold the glass in, apparently some silicones especially the ones that smell of vinegar are very corrosive for metal.
He told me to use Urethane by Sika a Swiss product OR Primerless Dow Corning The nice thing about going this route even if you get a few leaks first time the tire doesn't go down quickly, you have time to pump it up and get home.
I use one of those long narrow plastic flower pots to check for a leak, jack up the bike and work it under the wheel then fill with water to cover the nipples, even a slow leak shows up as a stream of bubbles.
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You'll not be "adjusting" a spoke that has green locktte in the threads. :grin: You'll be cutting it out and putting in a new one.
When I did the silicone thing on the G5, I really doubt that I could have gotten the wells clean enough for a good thread locker job. Of course, it had 100000 miles, and the rims were pretty grungy.
That said, if it works.. go for it. The upside looks good.
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I have used both the fast dry 3m 5200 marine urethane caulk,and permatex grey rtv silicone gasket maker to seal the spoke wheels on 3 different Guzzis with excellent results. Its been 7 years now,many tire changes,and not a single leak.
Rick.
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Hey Sarah, Tks very much for the info and link, I'll be ripping through that Triumph site info.
I regret not doing the tubeless conversion the last couple of tire changes, but I will be going down that road with some method for future tire changes.
I agree with others, I'd like the insurance or peace of mind with a 2 layer/sealer, but I'd be very cautious of compatibility.
I don't know what the active ingredients are, but I'm sure I've read that just the off gassing from Loc-Tite can destroy plastic, it would be nice to confirm that if a combination of different sealants/tape etc was used that they wouldn't destroy each other.
I've been digesting all this tubeless conversion info for a while and had pretty well come to the conclusion the new tape kit that 3M has apparently brought out was going to be the preferred method; Huzo's experience with the centrifugal force and the tape failure is concerning.
There are many ways to skin a cat, hopefully at some point there will be an overwhelming consensus on the best method. Apologies to cat lovers.
Tks for sharing the info
Kelly
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I see where Alpina makes the wheels for the V 85 tt. In anodized black the cost to get them imported from England is $1460.00. So, the question is, is it worth it to actually have a wheel that is designed to be tubeless justify the cost verses using tape and goo to convert a tube wheel? For me, and I stress the words, FOR ME, it is an unequivocable yes. I have read the various threads and testimonials on the various conversions and success stories. If you have confidence in it, your choice, your call. I just can't fully buy in. I honestly don't think, based on the participants of this forum and the multiple bikes that people own, that $1460.00 will be a deal breaker for the vast majority of folks here. I would put forth that there isn't another component on a motorcycle more important than the tiny rubber contact patch front and rear, and viable brakes to stop the bike. Maybe it is my racing background, or a healthy dose of respect for the designers and engineers, but some components should not be tampered with. Having said that, I think the design of the BMW wheels where the spokes route to the edge, or the Suzuki (and Tenere I think) where the spokes mount to a center ridge, are probably a better design than the Alpina wheels.
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I did that and the centrifugal (sic) force dislodged the tape, it rolled into a ball and rendered the tyre out of balance.
Since the tape has so little mass, I would attribute the tape coming dislodged to something other than centrifugal force. Easier for me to believe it came loose due to improper cleaning, wrong choice of tape, water, etc. Especially if the wheel was wrapped more than a single layer.
You may very well be right, just defies my experience. When it happens to me, I'll agree with you. :wink: People ripping a rim band and replacing it with tape is as old as tube tires.
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I have used both the fast dry 3m 5200 marine urethane caulk,and permatex grey rtv silicone gasket maker to seal the spoke wheels on 3 different Guzzis with excellent results. Its been 7 years now,many tire changes,and not a single leak.
Rick.
On the face, I'd have more confidence in 3m 5200 marine urethane caulk,and permatex grey rtv silicone gasket maker than in one drop of Loctite sealing between the spoke nipple and the rim.
The only green Loctite I have used is 409 (IIRC). Never used a wicking thread locker, but even a little sealant or thread lock would seal threads.
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I see where Alpina makes the wheels for the V 85 tt. In anodized black the cost to get them imported from England is $1460.00. So, the question is, is it worth it to actually have a wheel that is designed to be tubeless justify the cost verses using tape and goo to convert a tube wheel? For me, and I stress the words, FOR ME, it is an unequivocable yes. I have read the various threads and testimonials on the various conversions and success stories. If you have confidence in it, your choice, your call. I just can't fully buy in. I honestly don't think, based on the participants of this forum and the multiple bikes that people own, that $1460.00 will be a deal breaker for the vast majority of folks here. I would put forth that there isn't another component on a motorcycle more important than the tiny rubber contact patch front and rear, and viable brakes to stop the bike. Maybe it is my racing background, or a healthy dose of respect for the designers and engineers, but some components should not be tampered with. Having said that, I think the design of the BMW wheels where the spokes route to the edge, or the Suzuki (and Tenere I think) where the spokes mount to a center ridge, are probably a better design than the Alpina wheels.
True enuff, but, modifying what the engineers and designers did, is what makes tinkering fun.
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Tommy2cycle
You don't seem to be very familiar with Guzzis otherwise you would know that many of those also have rims designed for tubeless also.
Probably if all I was doing was running around a nice clean track where there is little chance of picking up some debris I would be quite happy with a tube also, trouble is the roads I ride have all sorts of sharp objects that can cause a puncture, It's difficult to change a tube on the road and besides a tubed wheel will normally deflate far quicker than a tubeless. On the other hand a tubeless tire can be plugged and re-inflated in minutes without having to carry tire irons, a jack to raise the bike and all the other tools required to remove a wheel.
You quote $1,460 for a pair of wheels, that's a pretty significant chunk of change if you have multiple bikes and do they have them for an antique?
Cheers
Roy
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Kiwi-Roy:
1. The V 85 is my first MG. Not sure the relevance of not knowing/or owning multiple MG's.
2. I am not against tubeless, that is what I want/I know all the negatives of tubed tires. I want a tubeless wheel on my bike. That is my point. What I am in favor, FOR ME, of is a properly designed way to achieve that. My reference to racing has nothing to do with riding in a controlled environment and a clean track, it has everything to do with proper design and execution to minimize risk.
3. $1460.00 is not a small amount of money. Agreed. However, in the event of a tire fail as a result of tape & goo, subsequent crash, and resultant medical costs associated with an event and bike damage, possible other parties involved, $1460 then becomes chump change.
4. Many on this forum prior to the arrival of the V 85 bemoaned the fact that it has a tubed wheel. Many said it was a deal breaker and moved on. Others said they would gladly pay for the upgrade to have the convenience and confidence of a tubeless wheel.
Sir Ed: Nothing against farkeling and personalizing your bike to suit one's needs. Seats, handlebars, pipes, windshields, suspension, have at it. As much as you want. Tinker away, it is part of the fun. People spend $1000 and up on a pipe & can to make a bike "sound better," so it should be reasonable to spend $1460 on tubeless wheels that provide, in my opinion and many others, a significant margin of safety and dramatically impacts the roadside repair of a puncture.
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Sir Ed: Nothing against farkeling and personalizing your bike to suit one's needs. Seats, handlebars, pipes, windshields, suspension, have at it. As much as you want. Tinker away, it is part of the fun. People spend $1000 and up on a pipe & can to make a bike "sound better," so it should be reasonable to spend $1460 on tubeless wheels that provide, in my opinion and many others, a significant margin of safety and dramatically impacts the roadside repair of a puncture.
True enough, but how one spends one's money is up to the person who has the money. Priorities are subjective.
As one who was a machine/tool design engineer for about 30 years, your original statement in true. Above and beyond that, engineers also design for unskilled assembly people, unskilled owners, unskilled motorcycle shop mechanics, manufacturing cost goals, and the considerations of "This is how it's been done for 20 years!" and potential lawsuits.
Many factors weigh in to what is the best way to do something. As you pointed out, the handlebars MG picked out for a model might not be optimum for a specific owner.
Also personal safety is subjective, converting a tube type rim to run a tubeless tire is ok for some, while "motorcycles are too dangerous and should be outlawed!" is fine for others. I would have considerably more peace of mind, converting my own tube rims to tubeless than I would paying a motorcycle shop to do the same when I don't know the caliber of the person doing the work.
I saw a lot of people working on the assembly lines at General Motors that I would not let within 50 feet of my motorcycle or my car with a tool in their hand!!! Yet many people have no problem buying a brand new or used GM vehicle.
All that said, at my current level of research, I would probably go the route of a dollop of 3M sealant on each nipple, covered by two or three layers of Gorilla Tape and ride with confidence.
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Sir Real Ed:
With your background of a machine/tool design engineer I would be very interested in your appraisal of the Alpina wheel design. If I remember correctly, I think this wheel was on the Stelvio's. While I am very interested in a tubeless design wheel, it still seems like there is some limitations and potential for leakage with the O ring design. Like I mentioned earlier, I wish we had an option on an edge or center ridge design, but to my knowledge none exist for the V 85 tt. Any feedback, opinion, or intuition on the Alpina wheels would be welcomed. Thanks.
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Green wicking 290 Loctite is a medium/high strength thread locker. Another use is sealing porous castings. Sounds like it should work.
If you need to adjust the spoke and it will not turn, just heat it a bit with a propane torch and the loctite will "fail". Don't do that if you have powder coat rims.
Spec for full cure 24 hours. I recommend waiting that long before you air up the tire.
Do not use a tube type rim tubeless! A tubeless rim has ribs to hold the tire in place is case of a flat. a tube type rim does not have them. Photo of a tubeless type rim:
(https://i.ibb.co/3cPHKdf/image.png) (https://ibb.co/3cPHKdf)
A couple of detailed articles about tube vs tubeless:
https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf
https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm
Dan
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Sir Real Ed:
With your background of a machine/tool design engineer I would be very interested in your appraisal of the Alpina wheel design. If I remember correctly, I think this wheel was on the Stelvio's. While I am very interested in a tubeless design wheel, it still seems like there is some limitations and potential for leakage with the O ring design. Like I mentioned earlier, I wish we had an option on an edge or center ridge design, but to my knowledge none exist for the V 85 tt. Any feedback, opinion, or intuition on the Alpina wheels would be welcomed. Thanks.
Can you post a link to the wheel you are referring to? Are you talking about o-rings on each spoke nipple? thanks.
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Tommy2cyl,
When I bought a 98 EV with tubeless rims I was delighted, these have spoke heads outside the rim, Im not a fan of the Stelvio wheels with all those "O" rings but I would much prefer them than to be stuck with a tube.
When I bought a new V7iii I could have chosen one with cast tubeless wheels but i really like the look of a spoked wheel so when it comes time to replace the rubber I plan on making them tubeless. I am confident I can do it safely otherwise I wouldn't attempt it.
Sure I could have a catastrophic failure but i don't believe there's any more chance than I have with a tube, my experience with tubes has been they can go flat very quickly.
Anyway, you have a V85, congratulations, I look forward to your report on the properly engineered conversion.
Cheers
Roy
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Redhawk47 , which HD rim is that ? And thanks for remarking about not using tubeless tires on tube type rims :thumb:, Peter
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Tommy - if the spokes can be permanently sealed and the rim not leak, what could be the downside? Would you still run a tube?
If you could seal up a set of wheels you already have for $20, why spend $1400?
You mentioned the BMW cross spoked tubeless wire wheels. They've very heavy. When they're damaged there's only one place in the country I know of (Woody's in Colorado) to have them fixed (Expensive!). I know nothing of the others - except the EV tubeless I've heard some negatives - don't recall what right not.
redhawk - I agree, the safety bead is a desirable item. I think you can buy new rims that have it and lace them to your old hubs. However, a lot of us have been riding bikes since the 50s or 60s with tubed wire wheels. I've never had serious difficulties, but know there can be when a tire quickly deflates at speed. I've had plenty of flats, but normally I can tell what's happening soon enough to avoid serious trouble.
It sounds like you object to running a wheel tubeless when it originally was set up for tubes. Let me ask you this:
If you have a blowout - what is the difference if there's a tube inside or not? How will it make ANY difference on a rim that doesn't have a safety bead???
Bottom line - it's safer running tubeless, if the rim can be permanently sealed, than running a tube. Tubeless tires tend to not lose air quickly when punctured, rather you'll find it in the garage the next morning when the pressure is low. Tubes when punctured tend to deflate rapidly.
So, yes, I'd love to have rims with a safety bead. But I'm not going to spend $1400 for a new set of wheels. I'm not even going to spend $300 (or however much they cost) for a tubeless rim with a safety bead and lace it to my hub. There are people these days who won't do anything unless it's completely safe, and then do something stupid and wind up dead. There's no way you're going to be completely safe - it's our awareness and fast reaction times that keeps us alive. If it's totally safe you want, best not ride a motorcycle.
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Sir Real Ed:
With your background of a machine/tool design engineer I would be very interested in your appraisal of the Alpina wheel design. If I remember correctly, I think this wheel was on the Stelvio's. While I am very interested in a tubeless design wheel, it still seems like there is some limitations and potential for leakage with the O ring design. Like I mentioned earlier, I wish we had an option on an edge or center ridge design, but to my knowledge none exist for the V 85 tt. Any feedback, opinion, or intuition on the Alpina wheels would be welcomed. Thanks.
found it! https://www.king-wheels.com/tubeless-spoked-aluminium/. scroll down about 2/3 of the page
I like it. Looks like a very solid design! Easy to see why the cost is so high. Sometimes you really do get what you pay for!
If I went this route, I'd lube the hell out of all the o-rings prior to assembly. Maybe even then install o-rings on nipples and drop them into a container of rubber lube prior to installing on rim and spoke.
(https://i.ibb.co/684xgKz/double-seal.png) (https://ibb.co/684xgKz)
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other interesting links:
https://japan.webike.net/products/21447817.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o
https://thetenerist.wordpress.com/2018/01/01/honda-africa-twin-outex-install/
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Here's a copy&paste from the Loctite 290 Data Sheet:
Directions for use:
For Pre-assembled Threaded Parts with Thru Holes
1. Prior to assembly, clean all threads (bolt and hole) with a
LOCTITE®
cleaning solvent and allow to dry.
2. For Thru Holes, apply several drops of product at screw
and body juncture.
3. Avoid touching the bottle tip to the metal surface.
For Assembly
1. For Blind Holes, apply several drops of the product
down the internal threads to the bottom of the hole
For Porosity Sealing
1. Clean area and apply localized heat to the area to
approximately 121°C.
2. Allow to cool to approximately 85°C and apply the
product.
For Disassembly
1. Remove with standard hand tools.
2. In rare instances where hand tools do not work because
of excessive engagement length, apply localized heat to
nut or bolt to approximately 250 °C. Disassemble while
hot.
You can download it here:
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/product/threadlockers/loctite_290.html
Sarah
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Another thread from triumphrat, scroll down a bit to see Caromba's post, and be sure to scroll a bit further to see the comment from rweb:
https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/t120-wire-wheel-tubeless-conversion.833321/page-2#post-9080402
Let me be clear in saying I'm not pushing this method one way or the other, I'm just trying to gather all the info I can before I tackle this job.
Sarah
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Wirespokes: Thanks for the feedback on the BMW cross spoke wheels and how heavy they are. One of the advantages of tubeless is reducing rotating mass of the tube, so getting a heavier spoked wheel in some regard negates that.
Sir Real Ed: Yup, that's the site on the Alpina wheels. I had watched the video by Dave on Best Products a while back, and agree it is an excellent tutorial
on how to do the conversion. I have read that some have concerns that if you need to adjust the spoke, that it would break the seal and wrinkle the tape.
I am aware of Outex. Seems they have been around for quite awhile. I might consider their product just so I could say Pre Cut Nipple Tape. (that one is for you Huzo :boozing:)
Thanks to all for your feedback. Always a learning process from intelligent people.
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Wirespokes: Thanks for the feedback on the BMW cross spoke wheels and how heavy they are. One of the advantages of tubeless is reducing rotating mass of the tube, so getting a heavier spoked wheel in some regard negates that.
Sir Real Ed: Yup, that's the site on the Alpina wheels. I had watched the video by Dave on Best Products a while back, and agree it is an excellent tutorial
on how to do the conversion. I have read that some have concerns that if you need to adjust the spoke, that it would break the seal and wrinkle the tape.
I am aware of Outex. Seems they have been around for quite awhile. I might consider their product just so I could say Pre Cut Nipple Tape. (that one is for you Huzo :boozing:)
Thanks to all for your feedback. Always a learning process from intelligent people.
Not sure how much heavier the BMW tubeless wheels are, such weight gain might be due classic German over design. Spokes are a little longer, rim obviously has thicker "sidewalls." Hub really does not need to change much.
Alpina wheels are an excellent design, IMSMO. Only downside is high cost. Only things that could screw it up is dirty assembly, or poorly machined surfaces.
I looked into this a couple years back, but never went forward due to lack of time and the fact that I've only had one flat tire in 50 years of riding (probably jinxed that!). If anyone wants a word file of the information I collected, shoot me a PM with your email address. No brilliant insights included, the info I have is very similar to the posts I listed above.
As Sarah says, this is a personal choice, just iike getting on a motorcycle in the first place. Not very risky IMSMO, but if you take the time to be thorough and meticulous about it, and it will probably work out well.
Sounds like lots of people have been doing this and having it work fine. Then again, most of us don't post our f-ups on the internet.
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Good read here on this subject! Im replacing my tires over the winter, and Ive been on the fence about doing this. I have a 02 California stone, and I plan to do some longer rides with it. I dont have a center stand, so flats on the road with tube tires could be a major issue. I would never have a shop do it for me.. ill be doing it myself. I have used the 5200 sealant before in marine applications, and know what it can do, so Im really thinking that is the way Im going myself, but im still open to others ideas. Maybe this wicking thread locker works..But I dont know.. seems the slightest mess up in prep would cause a failure. Maybe its just I cant get past so little amount of product being able to seal.. Personally I would worry about it all the time but thats just how im wired. But really... I think all of these ways will be fully able to work, and seal.. I think it just comes down to what YOU feel comfortable with
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When I first did my Eldorado I used the wrong silicon, I picked one from the bewildering array at the hardware store but the air would leak out the spoke threads after a few days, even so it was only a slow leak so I just pulled the tire off and tried again, I got quite good at removing tires. The silicon I used was hardly stuck to the aluminium so it was very easy to clean up.
Then I found the GE General Purpose Silicon in a small squeeze tube (enough to do 2 wheels) it was like night and day, I would air it up as soon as I could get the tire on
I will see if I can find the tube and post it, hate to put up the wrong one.
My multi motorcycle owning Glazer friend told me to use Urethane by Sika a Swiss product OR Primerless Dow Corning, that's what they use to hold the windscreen in cars, he said some silicones can be very corrosive, especially the ones that smell of vinegar
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Thats interesting, the way Alpina seals the spoke nipples with 2 O rings. Is that the way the spokes on the tubeless Griso wheels seal?
Rick.
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Cleaning the spoke area is a multi step process. I washed the rim and spokes with hot soapy water, rinsed, used air to blow oil out of nipples, washed again, rinsed again, blew more oil/lube out. Washed again with VMP Naptha, blew more oil/lube out, washed again with denatured alcohol.
I tried the 3M tape, putting the tire on was difficult and disturbed the tape. The rims leaked and I was concerned with centrifugal force pulling the tape off after a while.
The 3M marine glue was a multi step process and took sever days. I found that masking off the area outside of the area to be sealed helped. Just make sure you remove the tape before the glue cures.
Acetone was the secret to getting a smooth uniform finish. The 3M adhesive is acetone base. (at your own risk) I dipped my finger tip in the acetone and smoothed out the glue. I used acetone and paper towel to clean up the edges.
NAPA auto parts sell a valve stem that will fit the tube nipple hole without any modification.
The end results was very satisfactory. The tires actually hold air better than a tube or other previous tubeless wheels I have owned. Cleaning up the rims of nicks and burrs before installing the tire helps for a better seal also.
Considering the quality and durability of the 3M glue, I would suspect that it will remain in place and continue to seal longer than I will be alive. Safe, dry, hidden from the sun and ozone inside the tire, it is very well protected from what ever life can throw at it. As far as adjusting spokes, I have owned many spoke wheel motorcycles and bicycles. They don't fall apart unless they have been abused pretty bad. But anything is possible.
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moto-uno -- that rim photo was the first one I found on the web that was a good illustration of the safety bead. I know nothing else about it.
wire spokes -- bottom line from the industry: If the rim does not have the safety beads do not use it tubeless. No dealer would mount tires for you. It looks like the industry may be moving to safety beads on most/all rims. The V85TT has safety beads.
If you are converting to tubeless I suggest you consider right angle valve stems for the convenience. Available in lots of colors and for 11.3mm or 8.3mm diameter holes. Kurvy Girl has the best selection, Revzilla and others have them too.
Dan
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Good read here on this subject! Im replacing my tires over the winter, and Ive been on the fence about doing this. I have a 02 California stone, and I plan to do some longer rides with it. I dont have a center stand, so flats on the road with tube tires could be a major issue. I would never have a shop do it for me.. ill be doing it myself. I have used the 5200 sealant before in marine applications, and know what it can do, so Im really thinking that is the way Im going myself, but im still open to others ideas. Maybe this wicking thread locker works..But I dont know.. seems the slightest mess up in prep would cause a failure. Maybe its just I cant get past so little amount of product being able to seal.. Personally I would worry about it all the time but thats just how im wired. But really... I think all of these ways will be fully able to work, and seal.. I think it just comes down to what YOU feel comfortable with
I was reading up on the 5200 product, and found the 4200. It seems similar, but easier to remove in case of a damaged spoke. Anyone have any experience with the 4200?
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I too would be concerned about the absence of safety beads on rims designed for tubed tires.
Several years ago, I was messing around with a set of Lester mags on an old BMW. The Lesters were designed for tubed tires, and don’t have retention beads. I was trying to find out if I could run the wheels without tubes. I discovered that there’s a lot of strong opinions out there, and no consensus.
Some claimed that anyone foolish enough to run Lesters without tubes would suffer a fatal crash when a tire shifted on the rim during hard braking and immediately lost all air. Others claimed that they had run Lesters for years without tubes, with no problems.
I thought the tubeless riders’ experience might be due to the fact that the brakes on those old BMWs are so crappy that the brakes couldn’t generate enough force to slip the bead. But what do I know? I sold them.
There’s obviously a reason that rims intended for tubeless tires have the retention bead. I said no to the silicone idea and purchased tubeless spoked wheels from a Bassa for my CalVin.
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I too would be concerned about the absence of safety beads on rims designed for tubed tires.
Several years ago, I was messing around with a set of Lester mags on an old BMW. The Lesters were designed for tubed tires, and don’t have retention beads. I was trying to find out if I could run the wheels without tubes. I discovered that there’s a lot of strong opinions out there, and no consensus.
If you consult anyone involved in the tire/wheel industry you will find a very clear consensus.
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I don’t think anyone who messes around with old Lester mags and old BMWs would be in the tire/wheel industry. Having been a BMW owner for a time, though, I can say that many BMW owners are persons of deep understanding and subtle discernment. Or think they are.
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i had a 1984 airhead with the snow flake wheels. i always used the tubes. i had a good riding friend with a 1982 RT with snow flake wheels, he never used tubes. he thought i was wasting money.
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So explain to me how having a tube will prevent the tire from shifting under hard braking.
I've never had a tire shift, tube or tubeless.
Of course tire professionals will tell you not to run tubeless in a tube type. Insurance and lawsuits are the reason. Not that it's unsafe, but you know how it is - spill hot coffee in your lap and you can sue the pants off the vendor. Crash, blame it on the guy who put your tires together without tubes.
Burt Munroe never would have broken any records thinking like that. And maybe that's why his records still stand - he could think outside the box when everyone else was being careful to not do anything wrong. Hell, he even carved the tread off his tires to make them high speed slicks. I doubt any tire professionals would endorse that.
It's hard to think with something when you don't have all the data, or think you don't. And something like this takes a bit of a leap, or a friend who's done it. There are guys who run their dirt and street bikes all tubeless, and have for ten or twenty years. I think if you're worried about it, you shouldn't do it. Best get a set of wheels or a bike designed from the start for tubeless.
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Well said Wirespokes
I remember some British bikes had a security bolt, I think it jambes a wedge between the side-walls, I never had a bike with them fitted.
None of the bikes I had would pull the skin off a rice pudding.
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Well good news on my front.. It seems like the rims on my 02 California has the safety bead... Though like some, I cant see rapid deflation with a tube, or a deflating tubeless slipping a bead are any different..
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Well good news on my front.. It seems like the rims on my 02 California has the safety bead... Though like some, I cant see rapid deflation with a tube, or a deflating tubeless slipping a bead are any different..
It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.
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Well said Wirespokes
I remember some British bikes had a security bolt, I think it jambes a wedge between the side-walls, I never had a bike with them fitted.
None of the bikes I had would pull the skin off a rice pudding.
The wedges of which you speak are called rimlocks on this side of the pond. Generally found on dirt bikes so one can run very low tire pressure to increase traction. I can't remember the last time I saw any on a street bike. Tubeless tires grip the rim so well, you won't see rimlocks on tubeless tires. IIRC the trials bikes I've owned have had rimlocks on the front tire because it is tube type, but none on the rear tire because it is tubeless. Trials bikes generally run about 5-6 psi in the front and 4-5 psi in the rear.
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It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.
sounds like a plan.
"Hey, can I borrow a couple of your bikes.... and a helmet for a while? Should be back in a hour or less....." :wink:
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I don’t have any direct experience with tubeless-tire-on-tubed-rim failure. My point was only that (i) there’s disagreement about this; (ii) there’s a reason the retention beads are there; and (iii) I don’t want to be the guy who is offered as proof that the doomsayers were right.
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A thought on the wicking Loctite sealing method: If you hit a pothole hard (tire hits the rim) you could break the nipple/rim seal and have a slow leak.
Dan
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couple more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2upKfcA9w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPG8buNvTCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lniuSPDtDgM
https://cyb.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/KTM/Tubeless/i-BjwM3St
It seems to me the biggest difference between the OUTEX and how a lot of people are doing it is a layer of protective tape over the sealing tape. Seems like a good idea to me. If I do it, I will probably add a layer of Gorilla tape over the sealing tape.
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It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.
We have no argument with that. None at all. We all agree the safetybead is a very good thing and superior to a non-safetybead rim. The only downside of the safety bead being difficulty getting the bead to seat.
The question being debated is whether it's safe to run a tire without a tube on a non-safetybead rim.
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We have no argument with that. None at all. We all agree the safetybead is a very good thing and superior to a non-safetybead rim. The only downside of the safety bead being difficulty getting the bead to seat.
The question being debated is whether it's safe to run a tire without a tube on a non-safetybead rim.
Given that either type can go flat it could be argued that we should not run without a safety bead rim full stop!
Which type is more likely to go flat suddenly?
Perhaps review Figure 4 in this post by Redhawk47 before you answer that.
https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf
So given that, do we know if the V7iii spoked rims have a safety bead?
I fully intend to convert my V7iii Special to tubeless as soon as it needs new rubber, bead or not, I just can't see myself repairing a tube alongside the road somewhere next summer.
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We have no argument with that. None at all. We all agree the safetybead is a very good thing and superior to a non-safetybead rim. The only downside of the safety bead being difficulty getting the bead to seat.
The question being debated is whether it's safe to run a tire without a tube on a non-safetybead rim.
It's much less safe, it's safe to say.
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It's much less safe, it's safe to say.
If I think back to the conventional wisdom I've heard. Tubeless tires are supposedly safer that tube type, the reason often given is tube type tires tend to deflate faster than tubeless tires. Maybe, maybe not. Depends upon what type of damage causes the tire to deflate.
I suspect the real reason tubeless tires are considered safer than tube type tires is that tubeless rims have 2 safety beads to hold the tire against the side of the rim. I suspect that tubeless tires are safer than tube type tires because while the tire is losing air, the tubeless tire maintains the cross section shape of an inflated tire for a longer period of time because of the safety beads. Therefore from the perspective of the rider, it "feels like the tire is losing air less quickly."
Perhaps that is the reason they (supposedly) lose air slower than the tube type tire.
So it is safer to run a tubeless tire on a tubeless rim, than to run a tubeless tire on a tube type rim? Of course, the tubeless rim has safety beads that the tube type rim does not have.
Is it less safe to run tubeless tire on a tube type rim, than to run a tube type tire on a tube type rim? I doubt it. I would argue because of the lack of safety ridges on the tube type rim, the risk level is the same with either type of tire.
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Nice link, Roy! :thumb:
It's a long read, though. But very good. You guys, Ed and Vita, should read it and then get back to us.
Ed - no, tubeless isn't safer because of safety beads or some placebo effect. :grin:
They're safer because the tire tends to seal up the entry point, and since that's the only place for air to escape, it leaves very slowly if at all. With a tube, the bladder POPS or quickly deflates and the air exits the spoke holes or valve stem hole. it's a much more rapid deflate.
As already mentioned, the issue isn't whether safety beads are good or not. They definitely are. No argument there what-so-ever.
The argument is whether to run a tube type rim tubeless. In the article Roy posted, the only possible negative point against running tubeless was with the front rim. It's possible under hard cornering to break the bead loose if running tubeless without a safety bead. Not sure if that's ever happened, but the pros are concerned that's a possibility. I've run BMW snowflake rims, front and back, tubeless without anything like that every happening. Even though I've got minimal chicken strips I wouldn't call my cornering style aggressive. You'd have to really man-handle the thing to break the bead loose in a turn.
You're telling us that because the pros say not to, that, for some reason or other (that you're trying to guess) it's not safe. As another example, consider this: remember back in the 70s or 80s when european halogen headlights were so much better than our ancient sealed beams, but the only way to get them was from the display at the auto parts store that said "for off road use only!"? They were illegal because they weren't sealed up per law. How stupid was that? And following through - I wonder how many guys wondered what was wrong with halogen lights because they were illegal?
It's true you'll probably have to install your own tires if going this route, in which case there's no argument if that's not your thing. You wouldn't be converting anyway.
But just in case, or you want to debate this farther, do read that article! It'll give you a lot more data to think with. Here, I'll link it again:
https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf
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Nice link, Roy! :thumb:
It's a long read, though. But very good. You guys, Ed and Vita, should read it and then get back to us.
Ed - no, tubeless isn't safer because of safety beads or some placebo effect. :grin:
They're safer because the tire tends to seal up the entry point, and since that's the only place for air to escape, it leaves very slowly if at all. With a tube, the bladder POPS or quickly deflates and the air exits the spoke holes or valve stem hole. it's a much more rapid deflate.
As already mentioned, the issue isn't whether safety beads are good or not. They definitely are. No argument there what-so-ever.
The argument is whether to run a tube type rim tubeless. In the article Roy posted, the only possible negative point against running tubeless was with the front rim. It's possible under hard cornering to break the bead loose if running tubeless without a safety bead. Not sure if that's ever happened, but the pros are concerned that's a possibility. I've run BMW snowflake rims, front and back, tubeless without anything like that every happening. Even though I've got minimal chicken strips I wouldn't call my cornering style aggressive. You'd have to really man-handle the thing to break the bead loose in a turn.
You're telling us that because the pros say not to, that, for some reason or other (that you're trying to guess) it's not safe. As another example, consider this: remember back in the 70s or 80s when european halogen headlights were so much better than our ancient sealed beams, but the only way to get them was from the display at the auto parts store that said "for off road use only!"? They were illegal because they weren't sealed up per law. How stupid was that? And following through - I wonder how many guys wondered what was wrong with halogen lights because they were illegal?
It's true you'll probably have to install your own tires if going this route, in which case there's no argument if that's not your thing. You wouldn't be converting anyway.
But just in case, or you want to debate this farther, do read that article! It'll give you a lot more data to think with. Here, I'll link it again:
https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf
The issue with running tube type rims tubeless is the "burp", when a tire deforms enough (usually at low pressure) to lose some or all (usually all) pressure suddenly.
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Poll:
vote 1 if you have ever had a flat with a tube and/or found a nail in a tubeless tire, but the tire still held air.
vote 2 if you have ever had a tubeless tire pop off a tube type rim while at speed (or even while stopped for that matter).
Let me guess, 1000 #1 votes, zero #2 votes.
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It can be easily demonstrated, let the air out of a tubeless wheel and a tube type wheel and go for a low speed ride on each. See which tire stays on the rim.
Moto and others kinda hit the issue. There are three conditions to test for: transient, steady state and fault. So something that works well at steady state won't tell you how it will act in a fault condition. Actually it's conditionS. I wouldn't trust many motorcyclists to never run under inflated.
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Nice link, Roy! :thumb:
It's a long read, though. But very good. You guys, Ed and Vita, should read it and then get back to us.
Ed - no, tubeless isn't safer because of safety beads or some placebo effect. :grin:
They're safer because the tire tends to seal up the entry point, and since that's the only place for air to escape, it leaves very slowly if at all. With a tube, the bladder POPS or quickly deflates and the air exits the spoke holes or valve stem hole. it's a much more rapid deflate.
As already mentioned, the issue isn't whether safety beads are good or not. They definitely are. No argument there what-so-ever.
The argument is whether to run a tube type rim tubeless. In the article Roy posted, the only possible negative point against running tubeless was with the front rim. It's possible under hard cornering to break the bead loose if running tubeless without a safety bead. Not sure if that's ever happened, but the pros are concerned that's a possibility. I've run BMW snowflake rims, front and back, tubeless without anything like that every happening. Even though I've got minimal chicken strips I wouldn't call my cornering style aggressive. You'd have to really man-handle the thing to break the bead loose in a turn.
You're telling us that because the pros say not to, that, for some reason or other (that you're trying to guess) it's not safe. As another example, consider this: remember back in the 70s or 80s when european halogen headlights were so much better than our ancient sealed beams, but the only way to get them was from the display at the auto parts store that said "for off road use only!"? They were illegal because they weren't sealed up per law. How stupid was that? And following through - I wonder how many guys wondered what was wrong with halogen lights because they were illegal?
It's true you'll probably have to install your own tires if going this route, in which case there's no argument if that's not your thing. You wouldn't be converting anyway.
But just in case, or you want to debate this farther, do read that article! It'll give you a lot more data to think with. Here, I'll link it again:
https://bestrestproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Tube-Tires-VS-Tubeless-Tires.pdf
Good point. I agree.. so obvious.... I forgot about that. :sad: I'm claiming a senior moment. CRS, ya know. :grin:
Freedie Spencer or Kenny Roberts might be able to break the bead on a tubeless tire on a tube type rim on the track, but for a human rider on the street, I doubt it is an issue to worry about.
I've only seen two instances of tubeless bead breaking loose. The first involved alcohol, and my buddy driving too fast to make a turn, hit the curb and blowout three tires on his truck.
The second was a buddy who unintentionally pulled a wheelie on his trials bike, got too high, stepped off the back, the bike falls to the side, down a 10' drop off into the creek. Bizarrely enough, it broke the bead on the tubeless rear tire. Never seen anything like it. Due to light weight, trials bike crash well with usually no damage.
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WOW, we are not lacking details in this discussion. Nor should we.
But - I've had tire problems on the road with tube tires, and somehow got through them and got home.
I definitely would PREFER tubeless tires, have them on my BMW, and hope to have them on a cafe Guzzi that's in the works. But I probably will not convert my Cali 1100i to tubeless simply because the tradeoff for me is to work through the issues IF you ever have a problem on the road with your tube tires OR spend time and $$$$ converting in the small likelihood that you MIGHT have a problem on the road.
Life is a series of choices.
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Point of reference, friends. All DOT approved motorcycle wheels over the past couple decades have the beads on the rims. Cast or spoked.
Sure, if you're talking about your old 1970s Guzzi, the wire wheels do not have the safety bead and really shouldn't be run tubeless.
If the wheel is stamped DOT MC, it's going to have the beads.
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All I'll say here is that the Alpina Rims (as used on the NTX Stelvio), in my opinion, are one of the dumbest design ideas I've ever seen on a Bike in 41+ years of messing with them.
'On paper', fine, it's an OK idea, but the second they leave the Production line they'll be slowly deteriorating.
You can't realistically 'maintain' the O-Rings to keep them in good condition, unless you want to strip them apart every year or so.
As for sealing the Rims, and still being able to adjust the Spokes, you could paint the inner Nipple end with a dry-film mould-release before sealing.
That would stop the Sealant adhering to the Nipple, but wouldn't affect the sealing.
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WOW, we are not lacking details in this discussion. Nor should we.
But - I've had tire problems on the road with tube tires, and somehow got through them and got home.
I definitely would PREFER tubeless tires, have them on my BMW, and hope to have them on a cafe Guzzi that's in the works. But I probably will not convert my Cali 1100i to tubeless simply because the tradeoff for me is to work through the issues IF you ever have a problem on the road with your tube tires OR spend time and $$$$ converting in the small likelihood that you MIGHT have a problem on the road.
Life is a series of choices.
well said. I think the consensus is forming that tubeless tires on tubeless rims are the best choice, tube type tires on tube type rims are the least acceptable, and tubeless tires on a tube type rim are the intermediate choice.
But as always, opinions will vary.
I agree you can argue that the tubeless "fix" for tubeless wheels can resemble a pound of prevention for an ounce of cure. All depends on what the rider is comfortable with in regards to their shop abilities and the fear/consequences both real or imagined of being stranded.
Largely, the tubeless fix is "fun" tinkering that may result in "peace of mind" for the rider. Defining "fun" and "peace of mind" are personal concerns.
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All I'll say here is that the Alpina Rims (as used on the NTX Stelvio), in my opinion, are one of the dumbest design ideas I've ever seen on a Bike in 41+ years of messing with them.
'On paper', fine, it's an OK idea, but the second they leave the Production line they'll be slowly deteriorating.
You can't realistically 'maintain' the O-Rings to keep them in good condition, unless you want to strip them apart every year or so.
As for sealing the Rims, and still being able to adjust the Spokes, you could paint the inner Nipple end with a dry-film mould-release before sealing.
That would stop the Sealant adhering to the Nipple, but wouldn't affect the sealing.
Interesting perspective on the Alpina Rims. I like the design and I'd trust them with my life. If one was really concerned about o-ring deterioration, you could always replace them when the tire is changed.
Can't say that disassembling components simply to maintain 0-rings would be a big concern to many. Most 0-rings are there for life if the enclosing components are not removed for a different reason. But, this is a peace of mind modification, so to each his own.
I do agree with you on the spoke adjustability. I think a non hardening silicone sealant is also a feasible substitute as long as it is viscous enough to stay if place while rotating the wheel and applying the sealing tape.
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I think the consensus is forming that tubeless tires on tubeless rims are the best choice, tube type tires on tube type rims are the least acceptable, and tubeless tires on a tube type rim are the intermediate choice.
Agreed!
The difficulty is gaining understanding that converting a tube type to tubeless is a safer way to go. If there's no safety bead, running tubes makes very little difference keeping the bead seated. If air pressure is too low, it doesn't matter - the tire can unseat - tube or not.
A very smart guy in the bmw airhead community did some very thorough analysis of the issue. He's a pilot, has raced, ran a repair shop, and did a lot of in-depth testing of tires. You can read what he did and it's impressive. His conclusion is pretty much what I've been saying. His conclusion was that in all cases but one, the tubeless conversion (without safety bead) is safer than running tubes. That one case is where a rim gets bent enough that it wouldn't seal the bead, and somehow the tube wasn't pinched so still held air. You can read all about it here:
https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm
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My spoked wheels have already been converted years ago, and have been holding air just fine, but If i had to do it again, knowing what I know now about the products available to seal rims, I would use the 3m 5200 fast cure to seal the spoke holes, then the 3m tape on top. Looks to be the most fool proof method. IMHO. :thumb:
Rick
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Point of reference, friends. All DOT approved motorcycle wheels over the past couple decades have the beads on the rims. Cast or spoked.
Sure, if you're talking about your old 1970s Guzzi, the wire wheels do not have the safety bead and really shouldn't be run tubeless.
If the wheel is stamped DOT MC, it's going to have the beads.
I don't know about the DOT stamp part but there are plenty of modern bikes that come without safety bead rims. The Honda Africa Twin comes to mind as that's the main reason I never bought one.
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Poll:
vote 1 if you have ever had a flat with a tube and/or found a nail in a tubeless tire, but the tire still held air.
vote 2 if you have ever had a tubeless tire pop off a tube type rim while at speed (or even while stopped for that matter).
Let me guess, 1000 #1 votes, zero #2 votes.
Your third question should be, how many have ever run a tubeless tire without tube on a tube type rim? Not many I suspect, other than the BMW snowflakes I think it's almost unheard of.
I've had tubeless tires pop off of tubeless rims a few times, does that count? It was in low pressure off road applications so probably not the example you were looking for, but the same principles apply.
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well said. I think the consensus is forming that tubeless tires on tubeless rims are the best choice, tube type tires on tube type rims are the least acceptable, and tubeless tires on a tube type rim are the intermediate choice.
To be thorough it should be pointed out that tube type tires work fine on tubeless rims, as long as you use a tube.
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To be thorough it should be pointed out that tube type tires work fine on tubeless rims, as long as you use a tube.
Yep! And the fourth case is tubeless tires on tube type rims with a tube installed. My current Guzzi situation. Tire say "Tubeless, on tube type rim, fit tube."
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Your third question should be, how many have ever run a tubeless tire without tube on a tube type rim? Not many I suspect, other than the BMW snowflakes I think it's almost unheard of.
I guess I'm one of the few then, I've done this on several wheels and gone racing, at corner speeds totally unrealistic on the road, never had a problem. I think if the tire separates from rim enough to lose air I'm probably crashing anyway.
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I guess I'm one of the few then, I've done this on several wheels and gone racing, at corner speeds totally unrealistic on the road, never had a problem. I think if the tire separates from rim enough to lose air I'm probably crashing anyway.
Interesting. What tires, what rims, and what type of racing?
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I have some CMA cast rims I ran tubeless with metzler when sport tires moved away from tubed bias ply, then I replaced those with cast wheels from a mk4 lemans, then got some boranni with avon am22, then went to 17 inch rims laced to the old hubs using pirelli supercorsa on excel rims. I've been running it on the track for nearly 20 years, I race with AHRMA in superbike middleweight. I suppose Iv'e been experimenting this for nearly 30 years. All I did on the cast wheels was fit a tubeless valve, one of them (a CMA cast wheel) did have a slow leak due to casting porosity, just had to keep the tires checked.
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I have some CMA cast rims I ran tubeless with metzler when sport tires moved away from tubed bias ply, then I replaced those with cast wheels from a mk4 lemans, then got some boranni with avon am22, then went to 17 inch rims laced to the old hubs using pirelli supercorsa on excel rims. I've been running it on the track for nearly 20 years, I race with AHRMA in superbike middleweight. I suppose Iv'e been experimenting this for nearly 30 years. All I did on the cast wheels was fit a tubeless valve, one of them (a CMA cast wheel) did have a slow leak due to casting porosity, just had to keep the tires checked.
Cool! Are you running the Excels tubeless? If so what is your preferred sealing method?
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yes I run the excels tubeless, I did it the hard way with rtv, a cut down innertube to be a rim strip with valve, and more rtv, after reading all this there may be simpler (or better) options, I haven't had to adjust any spokes yet, having the innertube as a rim strip may increase my chances of retaining seal, we'll see. I did use a smaller tube (16 inch I think) for the rim strip, that way it is tight against the rim instead of being loose. I believe credit for this method belongs to another poster on this BB.
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This thread has pretty much convinced me to convert my V7ii Special over to tubeless. I'm currently using the RA3s. I might try the 3M 4200 (easier to remove) instead of the 5200, with the 3M tape on top. Thanks!
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Interesting perspective on the Alpina Rims. I like the design and I'd trust them with my life. If one was really concerned about o-ring deterioration, you could always replace them when the tire is changed.
Can't say that disassembling components simply to maintain 0-rings would be a big concern to many. Most 0-rings are there for life if the enclosing components are not removed for a different reason. But, this is a peace of mind modification, so to each his own.
I do agree with you on the spoke adjustability. I think a non hardening silicone sealant is also a feasible substitute as long as it is viscous enough to stay if place while rotating the wheel and applying the sealing tape.
As I said, it works, but only when new, or not more than a couple of years or so old.
After that they become an annoying liability.
Depends on environment, climate, use etc as well of course.
Disassembling (and re-furbishing, rebuilding, and truing) a Spoked wheel is a huge job (and expensive if you can't DIY), relative to something else that has an O-ring (or several) inside it, and they're almost always fully enclosed/sealed, so don't suffer the same type of deterioration as something like a Spoke Nipple, which is exposed to the elements, and has the added challenge of dissimilar-metal corrosion, exacerbated by the cocktail of salts on our roads throughout winter.
I was happy with mine, until they started to leak, but I went to Three-Spoke Alloys from a Griso anyway.
Of course they're not going to fail suddenly or spectacularly, failing O-Rings are no worse in practical terms than a typical slow punture in a Tubeless tyre, mine lost 3-4psi a week.
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So lets play analyze this. Looks like the tube has pressure and the safety bead did not work.
(https://i.ibb.co/yYgp5kq/Safety-Bead-on-Spoked-Wheel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYgp5kq)
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If it has a tube, I'd say it's deflated.
I blew up the image but it's difficult to tell if that rim has a safety bead or not. Kinda looks like it doesn't.
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Point of reference, friends. All DOT approved motorcycle wheels over the past couple decades have the beads on the rims. Cast or spoked.
Sure, if you're talking about your old 1970s Guzzi, the wire wheels do not have the safety bead and really shouldn't be run tubeless.
If the wheel is stamped DOT MC, it's going to have the beads.
Not always true. I have a pair of rims (spoked) that came off a ~2006 KTM 950 Adventure. They are both marked DOT - D. The rear has safety beads, the front does not. The front doesn't really have room for safety beads; it is a 21-2.15.
Dan
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As I said, it works, but only when new, or not more than a couple of years or so old.
After that they become an annoying liability.
Depends on environment, climate, use etc as well of course.
Disassembling (and re-furbishing, rebuilding, and truing) a Spoked wheel is a huge job (and expensive if you can't DIY), relative to something else that has an O-ring (or several) inside it, and they're almost always fully enclosed/sealed, so don't suffer the same type of deterioration as something like a Spoke Nipple, which is exposed to the elements, and has the added challenge of dissimilar-metal corrosion, exacerbated by the cocktail of salts on our roads throughout winter.
I was happy with mine, until they started to leak, but I went to Three-Spoke Alloys from a Griso anyway.
Of course they're not going to fail suddenly or spectacularly, failing O-Rings are no worse in practical terms than a typical slow punture in a Tubeless tyre, mine lost 3-4psi a week.
Doc,
Are you saying you had a set of Alpina wheels and they started to leak after a couple of years? If so, do you know if the o-rings were assembled dry? If so, I hope you had the chance to dope slap the person who did the assembly.
When they started to leak, did you submerge part of the wheel at a time and determining how many spokes per wheel were leaking?
Very Interesting. Thanks in advance for your answers.
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Sir Real Ed: My questions as well. Thanks for asking Doc to clarify. Still enjoying this discussion.
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Sir Real Ed: My questions as well. Thanks for asking Doc to clarify. Still enjoying this discussion.
Me too. Lots of interesting set of opinions from lots of experienced people.
As Doc says lots of things can affect longevity. With o-rings especially, careful assembly and proper o-ring material selection are huge factors.
Lots of o-ring failures can be traced back to lack of lubrication or presence of debris during assembly.
One could argue that the tire side o-ring pneumatically seals the rim and the inner o-ring protects the pneumatic seal from the elements. But if it requires a rocket scientist to do the assembly, there are better solutions.
The Alpina wheels are definitely an expensive route to solve a problem that has obviously been solved less expensively by lots of people.
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Your third question should be, how many have ever run a tubeless tire without tube on a tube type rim? Not many I suspect, other than the BMW snowflakes I think it's almost unheard of.
Well excuse me, my 72 Eldorado should qualify, I have been running its wheels tubeless for 4 years. The wheels are original without a bead. I replaced the original spokes because they were really rusty and sealed them with GE General purpose 100% Silicone.
https://www.amazon.ca/Silicone-Window-Door-Sealant-2-8/dp/B000M2UPAG/ref=asc_df_B000M2UPAG/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=339674613808&hvpos=1o7&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1481927829330053640&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001506&hvtargid=pla-791989743576&psc=1
A friend who introduced me to the concept runs his 46 Indian that way as well.
I will convert my V7iii but I intend to use the Loctite 290 with a backup 3M tape, at least that is the plan at the moment.
I still need to chose which 3M tape to use.
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Well excuse me, my 72 Eldorado should qualify, I have been running its wheels tubeless for 4 years. The wheels are original without a bead. I replaced the original spokes because they were really rusty and sealed them with GE General purpose 100% Silicone.
https://www.amazon.ca/Silicone-Window-Door-Sealant-2-8/dp/B000M2UPAG/ref=asc_df_B000M2UPAG/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=339674613808&hvpos=1o7&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1481927829330053640&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001506&hvtargid=pla-791989743576&psc=1
A friend who introduced me to the concept runs his 46 Indian that way as well.
I will convert my V7iii but I intend to use the Loctite 290 with a backup 3M tape, at least that is the plan at the moment.
I still need to chose which 3M tape to use.
Oddly enough, I just bought a tube of that yesterday. I plan to test it to see if it is non-hardening. If I go down this road, it will not happen for a month or two, I plan to use a non-hardening silicone on the nipple and some 3M tape.
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Doc,
Are you saying you had a set of Alpina wheels and they started to leak after a couple of years? If so, do you know if the o-rings were assembled dry? If so, I hope you had the chance to dope slap the person who did the assembly.
When they started to leak, did you submerge part of the wheel at a time and determining how many spokes per wheel were leaking?
Very Interesting. Thanks in advance for your answers.
My Stelvio was 6yrs old when I got it, but only had 19,000 miles on it (so a typical 2-3 year mileage for most riders).
Both wheels lost pressure almost from the beginning (of my ownership), I replaced the Wheels in April '17, at 28,000 miles.
I've not disassembled them yet, but probably will in a few months time.
I'll be sealing them with a 2-part Sealant.
I've also seen plenty of reports of younger Bikes (year & mileage-wise) having leaks from the Nipples.
I checked mine with Leak Detection Fluid, 6 Spokes on the rear, and 4 on the front leaked.
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My Stelvio was 6yrs old when I got it, but only had 19,000 miles on it (so a typical 2-3 year mileage for most riders).
Both wheels lost pressure almost from the beginning (of my ownership), I replaced the Wheels in April '17, at 28,000 miles.
I've not disassembled them yet, but probably will in a few months time.
I'll be sealing them with a 2-part Sealant.
I've also seen plenty of reports of younger Bikes (year & mileage-wise) having leaks from the Nipples.
I checked mine with Leak Detection Fluid, 6 Spokes on the rear, and 4 on the front leaked.
Did you replace them with identical wheels? Where and how will you be applying the sealant and what two part sealant will you use?
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. . . I went to Three-Spoke Alloys from a Griso . . .
(https://i.ibb.co/kmkq2fK/Small.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmkq2fK)
The plan is to seal just the Nipple Wells in the Rim.
Two-part Polysulphide Sealant.
Sticks like s**t to a blanket, and forms a tough but flexible seal.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282098582620 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282098582620)
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I am in the midst of the Loctite 290 method, applied to the spoke nipples and wells. The front went down 8 psi in 12 hours and after a dunk in the tub I've found 1 leaking nipple. I've removed the valve core to deflate the tire and doctored the nipple with denatured alcohol to speed the drying process, I'll let it set awhile and then reapply the Loctite to that particular nipple. It's highly possible that I missed it in the original application, the Loctite draws in immediately and it's easy to lose your place.
The rear wheel is down 2-3 psi in 20 hours, but I wonder if that's loss incurred using the gauges. Stay tuned for updates.
Sarah
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I am in the midst of the Loctite 290 method, applied to the spoke nipples and wells. The front went down 8 psi in 12 hours and after a dunk in the tub I've found 1 leaking nipple. I've removed the valve core to deflate the tire and doctored the nipple with denatured alcohol to speed the drying process, I'll let it set awhile and then reapply the Loctite to that particular nipple. It's highly possible that I missed it in the original application, the Loctite draws in immediately and it's easy to lose your place.
The rear wheel is down 2-3 psi in 20 hours, but I wonder if that's loss incurred using the gauges. Stay tuned for updates.
Sarah
Sarah,
thanks for starting a great thread. lots of useful information and interesting opinions.
Later in the spring, I'll probably go the silicone sealant under the sealing tape method. I suspect the sealing tape does 98+% of the sealing, while the silicone is useful mainly to fill the gap on top of the nipple and prevent excess stretching of the tape.
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I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.
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I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.
:grin: LOL
Pretty funny.
Hell with that new-fangled idea of running them tubeless like so many are doing!! What the hell are they thinking, anyway???!!!!
Real airplanes have two wings and propellers - that's the ONLY way to fly!
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Funny Jim! :grin:
I'm sure I saw somewhere long ago, where someone put two Tubes in a Tyre.
I think the reasoning was it'd be highly unlikely that anything puncturing the Tyre would get both Inner-Tubes.
One deflating, however suddenly, should theoretically leave you with at least half the original pressure.
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I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.
100 years ago we had one drum brake on the rear and nothing on the front, carbide lights as well, perhaps we had just upgraded from a drive belt and no gearbox to a chain drive, no rear suspension.
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I am in the midst of the Loctite 290 method, applied to the spoke nipples and wells. The front went down 8 psi in 12 hours and after a dunk in the tub I've found 1 leaking nipple. I've removed the valve core to deflate the tire and doctored the nipple with denatured alcohol to speed the drying process, I'll let it set awhile and then reapply the Loctite to that particular nipple. It's highly possible that I missed it in the original application, the Loctite draws in immediately and it's easy to lose your place.
The rear wheel is down 2-3 psi in 20 hours, but I wonder if that's loss incurred using the gauges. Stay tuned for updates.
Sarah
Sarah,
I'm curious, when you had the tires off, did you notice if either or both of your rims had the safety ridges? If so, which one had what? thanks,
Ed
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I have found the best way to hold air in a wire spoked wheel is to slip an inner tube inside of the tire and put he air in that.
Motorcyclists have been doing this for well over a hundred years.
sooner or later, the Harley Davidson riding motorcycle purists show up every where....... :wink:
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Yet another design of tubeless spoked rims. Company is called Moto Wheels. Product is Kineo Wheels. Saw an ad for Ducati Desert Sled front wheel.
$1165.00 if I remember right. Looks like a "busy" design and I think would be tough to keep clean. Still like the BMW design best.
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Dug a little deeper. Kineo makes a lot of wheels for many motorcycle manufacturers, including MG's. $1000 up per wheel. Not cheap. Doesn't seem they have a wheel for the V 85 yet. At least not listed on the site. The design does away with the Alpina O ring issue. What do you think of this design Sir Real Ed?
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Dug a little deeper. Kineo makes a lot of wheels for many motorcycle manufacturers, including MG's. $1000 up per wheel. Not cheap. Doesn't seem they have a wheel for the V 85 yet. At least not listed on the site. The design does away with the Alpina O ring issue. What do you think of this design Sir Real Ed?
Only the valve stem hole thru the rim, so it should seal well. I like the look of all the spoke lugs on the inside of the rim.
Lots of parts, so obviously expensive. Tough to clean I imagine. I still like the BMW tubeless design the best. Damn shame they patented it.
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Only the valve stem hole thru the rim, so it should seal well. I like the look of all the spoke lugs on the inside of the rim.
Lots of parts, so obviously expensive. Tough to clean I imagine. I still like the BMW tubeless design the best. Damn shame they patented it.
Wouldn't that patent be expired by now? It's been over 30 years.
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I talked to Chris at Woody's Wheels in Denver last Friday. They don't make a tubeless wheel for the MG V 85. I imagine they would offer this design if they were "allowed". If anyone could make them, they would be the source. He highly recommended OUTEX. I know they sell the kits, but he says it is a very good product and they do the conversions all the time. If anyone has another possible source of a wheel fabricator with the spokes to the outside rim design, I would love to know about it.
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sooner or later, the Harley Davidson riding motorcycle purists show up every where....... :wink:
I think that Jim makes a valid point. Yeah, tubeless is safer, but that statement doesn't mean that tubed tires are unsafe. I've been riding half a century and have had a couple flats, neither of which caused me to wipe out. Keeping your tires inflated properly is your best insurance. YMMV.
Larry
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My over riding interest in tubeless is not concern over having a flat and what happens during that event. I know that a tubed tire deflation can be quick and generally a puncture in a tubeless is "less severe" at speed. My goal is in quick tire repair along side the road if a puncture occurs. The real danger is being along a busy road and having a lengthy repair with inattentive drivers flying by @ 80 mph. I just want to get it plugged and out of harms way.
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Safety Bead? Is this a proven method to "help" retain a tire on a motorcycle rim or is this a promotion created my some marketing department many decades ago to sell more of a brand of motorcycle?
Any one have the history of this "safety bead"? It appears to be one of those "it has always been done this way, so it must be right" kinda things.
Obviously it does not work. If it did, a tire could not be put on or off a rim with simple hand tools.
As far as putting tape inside of a rim to seal, I saw the result of it balling up after peeling off from the gyroscopic force pulling away from the rim.
Checked the rims I sealed with 3M marine sealant yesterday. They have not lost any pressure since I last check pre Kentucky Rally ride in September. I'm good with my choice in sealing.
The Why do it question comes up. I did it for weight reduction. I installed aluminum Excell rims, lightened the hubs and brake carriers. Losing nearly 10 pound per wheel assembly. A lot of rotating mass. And because I could.
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John - I wouldn't say that safety beads absolutely keep the tire mounted, but I'm sure they do help. After all, they make it more difficult mounting and dismounting.
What's your perception of handling since losing all that unsprung weight?
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Most of what I read suggests that the biggest concern is rapid deflation post puncture.
Naturally this will be due to air escaping through the spoke nipples and single valve hole. For those who want two bob each way, how about sealing the spoke heads and keep your tubes ?
Won’t be the way I’ll go, but a safety measure maybe ?
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Well, you could seal the valve stem also, Huzo. A good thick o-ring inside, and maybe even a rubber seal on the outside should do the trick. That oughta slow the egress. Then all you've gotta worry about is a blow out, and 90% of those are caused by low air pressure.
I met an old timer who'd set records in the 30s out on Long Beach. His reality was that a large percentage of bike accidents back then were due to tire failures. Makes me respect even more the guys back then who set speed records over 100mph.
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I've been riding half a century and have had a couple flats, neither of which caused me to wipe out.
You've been lucky. When I was riding a lot, I had flats regularly. At least one per year. Usually the rear. Running tubeless and being able to plug and go sure is nice.
Those flats are never convenient. Usually out in the middle of nowhere. Plugging a tubeless tire and using a mini compressor to reinflate gets you back on the road in minutes.
For me, patching or replacing a tube on a 500+lbs motorcycle, on the side of the road, just isn't something I want to suffer.
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To add to what you just said, rocker, most of my bikes need to be tilted to the side a lot or remove the front wheel to get the back end high enough to clear the fender. I was lucky enough one time the rear tire went flat at a rest stop. I was able to put the rear tire over the curb which made removal pretty easy. But the time before that I'd had to remove the front wheel after tying the center stand down.
So being able to plug and go is a real time saver.
Les - with a safety bead, if the tire does come off the bead, it's going to be fun getting it seated again without a squirt of butane.
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So far so good on the Loctite 290. One thing to note: in re-treating the front rim, we noticed that if we weren't careful to keep the tip clear the Loctite would tend to clog and thicken just a bit, possibly keeping it from wicking as well as it might. I suspect that may have been my trouble the first time around, so would suggest anyone considering this to be mindful of that. I got a chance to ride yesterday afternoon and tried to test the bike best I could; I ended up in our big health pavilion parking lot full of speed bumps, standing on the pegs and hitting them as fast and hard as I dared. I rode 30 miles altogether and my pressures this morning are exactly where they were when I started. I'll keep you posted.
Sarah
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sounds like a job well done. i would like to do this, heck, would have done this 20 years ago, but now don't want to have to change my own tires. lazy me.
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So far so good on the Loctite 290. One thing to note: in re-treating the front rim, we noticed that if we weren't careful to keep the tip clear the Loctite would tend to clog and thicken just a bit, possibly keeping it from wicking as well as it might. I suspect that may have been my trouble the first time around, so would suggest anyone considering this to be mindful of that. I got a chance to ride yesterday afternoon and tried to test the bike best I could; I ended up in our big health pavilion parking lot full of speed bumps, standing on the pegs and hitting them as fast and hard as I dared. I rode 30 miles altogether and my pressures this morning are exactly where they were when I started. I'll keep you posted.
Sarah
Hi Sarah,
When I replace the rubber on my V7iii this spring, i'm going tubeless, I wasn't aware of the Loctite 290 method until you started this thread, that's the way I am leaning at the moment.
How much Loctite 290 do I need to do two wheels, would one or two of the small bottles be enough?
Did you put a tape over the top, if so which one or just rely on the Loctite?
Thanks
Roy
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Hi Sarah,
When I replace the rubber on my V7iii this spring, i'm going tubeless, I wasn't aware of the Loctite 290 method until you started this thread, that's the way I am leaning at the moment.
How much Loctite 290 do I need to do two wheels, would one or two of the small bottles be enough?
Did you put a tape over the top, if so which one or just rely on the Loctite?
Thanks
Roy
It's was a new one on me too, Roy. I used only the Loctite 290 applied to the top of the nipples and the well, just like the fellow in the Triumph thread. No tape or anything else. This 10ml bottle seems like it would do several sets of rims, for one bike I'd think the 6ml tube would be plenty. I looked around and didn't find it on any local shelves, so I ordered off Amazon. Pressures still holding as of last night.
Sarah
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There is no good reason to put Loctite on the nipple threads if that is what has been done.
Edit.
Loctite 290 is a wicking thread locker for assembled fasteners.
When I was putting the Mallory metal inserts in my crankshaft I contacted Loctite USA asking for a product recommendation based on how I intended to do it which at that stage was to secure them with pad weld (TIG/309 filler wire) but leave some access so a locking agent could still get into the area... as an added precaution (I ended up doing 360 degree 309 pad welds instead)
One guess which product Loctite recommended (290) but don't let me put anyone off.
Were your inserts threaded?
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A little more research and discussion with our local sealant and adhesive distributors/manufacturers and the local Loctite guys suggested I try (no guarantees) their Loctite 290 Green product. For the equivalent of US$20.00 I bought a little 50ml bottle of the stuff.
In her very first post Sarah explains why she chose 290
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Roy is right, I just followed the fellow in the Triumph thread. Here's the little blurb from Loctite:
Threadlocking adhesive - medium/ high strength. Ideal for locking preassembled fasteners.
LOCTITE® 290 is a liquid medium/high-strength threadlocker designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. Because of its low viscosity and capillary action, the product wicks between engaged threads and eliminates the need for disassembly prior to application. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close-fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage due to shock and vibration. The product can also fill porosities in welds, castings and powdered metal parts.
And here's the link to the Data Sheet:
https://tdsna.henkel.com/americas/na/adhesives/hnauttds.nsf/web/3184021E8BB54341882571870000D626/$File/290-EN.pdf
Sarah
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Two sealants to consider: Loctite 211 ; Vibra-Tite 111. Both are low viscosity, low strength, wicking sealants. They will seal the threads, but allow adjusting or removing. Horst
Reading the data sheets a couple of notes stand out
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
LOCTITE® 211 a pre-applied coating for threaded fasteners and fittings. During assembly the microcaps contained in the coating are crushed thereby releasing an active ingredient which initiates the curing process.
The spoke nipples are pre assembled so I doubt it would work
---------------------------------------
LOCTITE 220
4. This product is not recommended for pre-assembled threads in a blind hole.
LOCTITE 220 is designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners which require normal disassembly with standard hand tools.
The 220 may be ok as the nipple threads are not really blind holes, The second note is appealing
Thanks for your input Horst
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The most applicable Loctite would be # 220, a blue, low viscosity, wicking sealant. Horst.
By the way
Welcome to the forum, are you a Guzzi rider?
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I know there's been some concern over disassembly, in case you ever need to adjust the spokes. Here's a copy&paste from the Loctite 290 Data Sheet:
For Disassembly
1. Remove with standard hand tools.
2. In rare instances where hand tools do not work because
of excessive engagement length, apply localized heat to
nut or bolt to approximately 250 °C. Disassemble while
hot.
Sarah
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250C is close to 500F.
Maybe someone ought to try unthreading a spoke nipple sealed with 290 - on the bench. I'd be concerned applying that much heat to a spoke. But if it'll back out without heat then you're ok.
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Just a thought for you tubed guys out there, the aerosol inflator / sealers
are worth looking at. I carried one on my Cali for years and tried it
out when I had a slow leak a couple of years back. It worked fine and is a no brainier to carry with
you IMHO.
Sure beats trying to fix a flat on the side of the road.
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Just a thought for you tubed guys out there, the aerosol inflator / sealers
are worth looking at. I carried one on my Cali for years and tried it
out when I had a slow leak a couple of years back. It worked fine and is a no brainier to carry with
you IMHO.
Sure beats trying to fix a flat on the side of the road.
In my experience, they're quite useless. Might work for a slow leak, but nothing more.
A few years ago I was off-road riding on my XT500 with several other XT500 guys. At one point the guy in front of me started swerving side-to-side and then went off into a shallow ditch. Rear tire flat. The leader of our group proudly whipped out his can of "fix-a-flat" proclaiming that it would do the job according to what he'd read on ADV Rider. It failed miserably.
Lots of hand wringing ensued, especially since we were in an area with no cellphone signal. None of them had a "plan B". No worries - in my backpack I had patches, glue, tire irons, CO2 inflator - everything to do the job, even a spare tube. Within 20 minutes the tube was patched, wheel back in place and inflated.
In my own bikes with tubes (which is 100% of them), I use "Ride On" which is a sealer/balancer. Before that I used PJ1 Balance Plus which was the same type of product. Both work well - I've had punctures without ever even knowing it. Orange (or green for PJ1) spot on the tube where the puncture was sealed. The only time it didn't work was when I somehow picked up three nails all together (from a strip for a nail gun I assume). That made a rather large hole in my tire and an even larger one in the tube. PJ1 tried it's best, but failed.
Last Sunday I was checking over the Convert before going out for a ride, like I do before every ride. Front tire: 32 psi, rear tire: zero. :shocked: Spun the tire around a couple of times before I finally spotted a screw down in the groove of the tread. The head of it was quite worn, so it was in there a while. Never noticed any weird handling from low pressure when I rode it last. Super slow leak - I pumped it up so I could move the bike and it took a several days to drop back to 20 psi. Ride On doing it's thing I guess.
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I came upon this video from Bwstrest Products
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o
Update
Based on this video my current thinking is
3M 4200 Marine sealant in the nipple holes
backed up with 3M 4411 sealant tape over the top to make it tidy and protect the 4200
I'm still open to other ideas.
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In my experience, they're quite useless. Might work for a slow leak, but nothing more.
A few years ago I was off-road riding on my XT500 with several other XT500 guys. At one point the guy in front of me started swerving side-to-side and then went off into a shallow ditch. Rear tire flat. The leader of our group proudly whipped out his can of "fix-a-flat" proclaiming that it would do the job according to what he'd read on ADV Rider. It failed miserably.
Lots of hand wringing ensued, especially since we were in an area with no cellphone signal. None of them had a "plan B". No worries - in my backpack I had patches, glue, tire irons, CO2 inflator - everything to do the job, even a spare tube. Within 20 minutes the tube was patched, wheel back in place and inflated.
In my own bikes with tubes (which is 100% of them), I use "Ride On" which is a sealer/balancer. Before that I used PJ1 Balance Plus which was the same type of product. Both work well - I've had punctures without ever even knowing it. Orange (or green for PJ1) spot on the tube where the puncture was sealed. The only time it didn't work was when I somehow picked up three nails all together (from a strip for a nail gun I assume). That made a rather large hole in my tire and an even larger one in the tube. PJ1 tried it's best, but failed.
Last Sunday I was checking over the Convert before going out for a ride, like I do before every ride. Front tire: 32 psi, rear tire: zero. :shocked: Spun the tire around a couple of times before I finally spotted a screw down in the groove of the tread. The head of it was quite worn, so it was in there a while. Never noticed any weird handling from low pressure when I rode it last. Super slow leak - I pumped it up so I could move the bike and it took a several days to drop back to 20 psi. Ride On doing it's thing I guess.
Maybe useless in some cases but surely worth a try to get you out of a jam ??
Some brands obviously work better than others, my leak was fixed and tyre stayed inflated for almost a year.
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Maybe useless in some cases but surely worth a try to get you out of a jam ??
Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics... :popcorn:
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Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics... :popcorn:
I've often wondered the same thing. the beads and goo have their detractors and disciples. I personally haven't done a deep dive into the physics, but might do that when I have more free time.
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Regarding the "fix a flat" can. Several years ago I was riding with the Sooner Adventure Riders where we were on back roads and trails. A KLR guy had his tires aired down, as normal, and when jumping a railroad track pinched his rear tube. Went down immediately. Aired it up with the can of "fix a flat" and road the bike about 50 more miles and it stayed up the whole way. No knowledge of what happened after that.
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Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics... :popcorn:
There was quite a discussion on Adventure Rider and this is the explanation that finally made sense to me. Supposedly MCN did a test and found them to be bogus. However, it was explained what MCN did wrong in their tests - the mistake was using a tire balancing machine for the test. When a tire is out of balance, the heavy section pulls the whole wheel off axis. The beads (or balancing liquid) goes to that point since it's the farthest from center. Since MCN used a balancing machine, the axle was held solidly in place, unlike when the wheel is in use on a vehicle.
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In my experience, they're quite useless. Might work for a slow leak, but nothing more.
A few years ago I was off-road riding on my XT500 with several other XT500 guys. At one point the guy in front of me started swerving side-to-side and then went off into a shallow ditch. Rear tire flat. The leader of our group proudly whipped out his can of "fix-a-flat" proclaiming that it would do the job according to what he'd read on ADV Rider. It failed miserably.
Lots of hand wringing ensued, especially since we were in an area with no cellphone signal. None of them had a "plan B". No worries - in my backpack I had patches, glue, tire irons, CO2 inflator - everything to do the job, even a spare tube. Within 20 minutes the tube was patched, wheel back in place and inflated.
In my own bikes with tubes (which is 100% of them), I use "Ride On" which is a sealer/balancer. Before that I used PJ1 Balance Plus which was the same type of product. Both work well - I've had punctures without ever even knowing it. Orange (or green for PJ1) spot on the tube where the puncture was sealed. The only time it didn't work was when I somehow picked up three nails all together (from a strip for a nail gun I assume). That made a rather large hole in my tire and an even larger one in the tube. PJ1 tried it's best, but failed.
Last Sunday I was checking over the Convert before going out for a ride, like I do before every ride. Front tire: 32 psi, rear tire: zero. :shocked: Spun the tire around a couple of times before I finally spotted a screw down in the groove of the tread. The head of it was quite worn, so it was in there a while. Never noticed any weird handling from low pressure when I rode it last. Super slow leak - I pumped it up so I could move the bike and it took a several days to drop back to 20 psi. Ride On doing it's thing I guess.
Interesting.. Ill have to read more into that. ... So any downsides at all?? In your opinion does the balance help, or hurt? Do you do a balance after tire mounting? Im on the fence with all this. Im putting tires on my California stone this winter, and want to do something. I dont have a center stand on the bike, and I am planning a few long rides, so I really dont want to be stuck somewhere.
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Interesting.. Ill have to read more into that. ... So any downsides at all?? In your opinion does the balance help, or hurt? Do you do a balance after tire mounting? Im on the fence with all this. Im putting tires on my California stone this winter, and want to do something. I dont have a center stand on the bike, and I am planning a few long rides, so I really dont want to be stuck somewhere.
First off let me say I would not use it in tubeless tires, only in those with a tube. It would be real mess trying to clean it out of tubeless tire and rim.
I don't use "Ride On" for the balance feature, really only for the sealing of punctures. I balance with lead weights first them add the Ride On afterwards. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. However, in the past, when I was using the (now unavailable) PJ1 Balance Plus I wouldn't put any weights on to balance, just the PJ1. For about the first mile of each ride, the front end would bounce, noticeably out of balance. Slowly the PJ1 would take effect and the bounce would go away for the rest of the day.
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Speaking of jam.
I still simply cannot understand the physics behind how putting a migratory liquid into a cavity in the case of a tube, can find where the heavy spot is, then migrate around to the opposite side.
If the wheel is not concentric, the point of the tyre that has the largest radius, will be travelling faster and would conceivably attract the goo, thereby increasing the asymmetric mass distribution unfavourably.
If you say it works then fine, but I’m saying, I do not understand the physics... :popcorn:
It's not about balancing the wheel Huzo, it's about fixing the xxxxxing puncture 😋.
Once you squirt the stuff in you rotate the wheel to distribute it evenly to find and fix the leak.
You're not concerned with balancing the wheel, just getting home or to a tyre shop.
I was slack and left mine in that state until I sold the old girl. My gearbox failed and it stayed inflated
for the brief (year or so) it took me to fix the crappy bearing failure so I figured it was ok to leave it as was.
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First off let me say I would not use it in tubeless tires, only in those with a tube. It would be real mess trying to clean it out of tubeless tire and rim.
I don't use "Ride On" for the balance feature, really only for the sealing of punctures. I balance with lead weights first them add the Ride On afterwards. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. However, in the past, when I was using the (now unavailable) PJ1 Balance Plus I wouldn't put any weights on to balance, just the PJ1. For about the first mile of each ride, the front end would bounce, noticeably out of balance. Slowly the PJ1 would take effect and the bounce would go away for the rest of the day.
I spent many years training to be a auto tech, and the last 25 working at a dealer, and have seen that WAYYYYYY too many times!! The stuff is a mess!!!! I was thinking if I kept the tubes as a back up plan to help stop leaks..
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Hold the phone folks, this method may not be as peachy as I thought---my rear tire held pressure dead even for a month, went to check it after a few days away and it was down 10lbs. Using soapy water dabbed with a Q-tip I have found 3 slow leaks, one from a well and two from top of the nipple. I am not at all sure what to make of this and pondering what to do next, but wanted to post an update with the latest. Front pressure is still holding steady. Stay tuned.
Sarah
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Seemed too good to be true.. Just seemed too easy.
Any of you that have used the 3M sealing tape stuff... Can this stuff be cut in half lengthwise easy enough?? Im asking because I plan to use it on my bike, and the front wheel drop center is 1", and the rear 2"... Tape sold in rolls of 1 or 2"... I dont really need two rolls, so wondering if its easy to cut the 2" down to 1?
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Seemed too good to be true.. Just seemed too easy.
Any of you that have used the 3M sealing tape stuff... Can this stuff be cut in half lengthwise easy enough?? Im asking because I plan to use it on my bike, and the front wheel drop center is 1", and the rear 2"... Tape sold in rolls of 1 or 2"... I dont really need two rolls, so wondering if its easy to cut the 2" down to 1?
I tried everywhere to get the 3M sealant and 3M tape I wanted, the tape only seems to be available in 3 inch which would bee too hard to handle.
My current thinking is Sikaflex 291i Marine Adhesive Sealant backed up with Crystal Clear Gorilla tape.
I still haven't got around to doing the wheels, just assembling all the supplies I need.
I'm in no rush.
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Sarah, I converted my V7 wheels to tubeless about 3 months ago. After reading your post I decided to check the tire pressure on each. They are reading 29 and 30 so I think I have lost about 5 psi. That seems pretty normal for motorcycle tires that have been sitting for 3 months.
I do not know how you sealed your spokes but it's really important to get the rim clean and free of any oil or grease. I used hot soapy water, scrub pads and followed up with Acetone. Still, with the first attempt I had an air leak at a spoke nipple and had to do that one again to get a better seal. I used 3M 5200 so it took a couple days of dabbing the 5200 on spokes and waiting for it to set enough to rotate the wheel and do the next batch. Otherwise the 5200 would sag away from the spoke. I imagine you can fix the two spoke leaks by scraping out the old sealant, cleaning the nipple, and re-coating.
As for the tape, Gorilla tape probably won't do a good enough job of protecting the seals from damage when changing tires. The 3M tape is damn tough but you still need to be careful with the tire irons. I think you can get the tape in 1" width as well as the 2" stuff.
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Hold the phone folks, this method may not be as peachy as I thought---my rear tire held pressure dead even for a month, went to check it after a few days away and it was down 10lbs. Using soapy water dabbed with a Q-tip I have found 3 slow leaks, one from a well and two from top of the nipple. I am not at all sure what to make of this and pondering what to do next, but wanted to post an update with the latest. Front pressure is still holding steady. Stay tuned.
Sarah
When I first did my 72 Eldorado I had similar issues, the tires would stay up for a couple of days then go down, usually the leak would be through the nipple thread to bubble out where the spoke threaded in.
One thing about it, the leak was never sudden you could always blow up the tire and make it home, not like a badly punctured tube.
The first silicone I used would over several days flow into the nipple leaving a shape like a miniature volcano, The GE General Purpose 100 % Silicone was much better but I want to get away from silicone altogether.
Its been suggested that the material used to fasten car windscreens is a better material to use on aluminium.
I use one of those long plastic planter boxes they sell at any plant shop, work it under the wheel then fill with water to above the nipples.
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Hold the phone folks, this method may not be as peachy as I thought---my rear tire held pressure dead even for a month, went to check it after a few days away and it was down 10lbs. Using soapy water dabbed with a Q-tip I have found 3 slow leaks, one from a well and two from top of the nipple. I am not at all sure what to make of this and pondering what to do next, but wanted to post an update with the latest. Front pressure is still holding steady. Stay tuned.
Sarah
Good on you Sarah for giving this a shot. It seems some have made this work, but the concept of one drop sealing each spoke seems a bit optimistic to me. Also, the product is being used as a sealant, which is not what it was designed to be. That said, one drop per spoke with a bit of waiting between applications, and multiple application will probably get the job done.
When I go down this road, I'll probably use 3M silicone and sealing tape. Just like painting, preparation and patience is the key.
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As for the tape, Gorilla tape probably won't do a good enough job of protecting the seals from damage when changing tires. The 3M tape is damn tough but you still need to be careful with the tire irons.
That is an excellent point. I had a local bike shop remove a tire from a cast wheel so a friend could do some machining on it. The scar they left down the center of the "tube side" of the rim, 360 degrees around the wheel was impressive.
After I convert some spoked wheels to tubeless, the days of having the local shop change tires on their tire machine are gone forever.
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I tried everywhere to get the 3M sealant and 3M tape I wanted, the tape only seems to be available in 3 inch which would bee too hard to handle.
My current thinking is Sikaflex 291i Marine Adhesive Sealant backed up with Crystal Clear Gorilla tape.
I still haven't got around to doing the wheels, just assembling all the supplies I need.
I'm in no rush.
Not sure if its world wide, but Amazon sells the tape in diferent sizes. My thoughts on cutting it is becouse of a 1"x5 yard roll is pretty much the same cost as a 2"x5 yard roll.. Being the front rim has a 1" center, the rear a 2" center it would work great to just cut the 2" roll insted of buying two..
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I came upon this video from Bwstrest Products
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzoqi_4X7o
Update
Based on this video my current thinking is
3M 4200 Marine sealant in the nipple holes
backed up with 3M 4411 sealant tape over the top to make it tidy and protect the 4200
I'm still open to other ideas.
I will go this route. The 4200 is available at Canadian Tire, and 1-1/2" 4411 is on Amazon.ca
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Sarah, I converted my V7 wheels to tubeless about 3 months ago. After reading your post I decided to check the tire pressure on each. They are reading 29 and 30 so I think I have lost about 5 psi. That seems pretty normal for motorcycle tires that have been sitting for 3 months.
I do not know how you sealed your spokes but it's really important to get the rim clean and free of any oil or grease. I used hot soapy water, scrub pads and followed up with Acetone. Still, with the first attempt I had an air leak at a spoke nipple and had to do that one again to get a better seal. I used 3M 5200 so it took a couple days of dabbing the 5200 on spokes and waiting for it to set enough to rotate the wheel and do the next batch. Otherwise the 5200 would sag away from the spoke. I imagine you can fix the two spoke leaks by scraping out the old sealant, cleaning the nipple, and re-coating.
As for the tape, Gorilla tape probably won't do a good enough job of protecting the seals from damage when changing tires. The 3M tape is damn tough but you still need to be careful with the tire irons. I think you can get the tape in 1" width as well as the 2" stuff.
Forget the tape/any tape. It will eventually come off from centrifugal force and or contaminates. It does not seal around the head of the nipples. The ends do not seal. The valve stem does not seal. It is sticky, hard to work with, does not like compound surfaces, will not lay down flat in rim well.
Clean with soap and water, rinse, blow oil/assembly lube out of nipples, rinse and repeat a couple of times. Then wipe down with denatured alcohol or acetone.
Dab a little of the 3m 5200 on each nipple with the rim slid over the axle held in a vise so you can rotate easily. Use acetone to smooth out and to clean up. Let the first coat dry for 24 hours.
Second coat. I used masking tape in the rim well to establish a good transition line. I applied a thin second coat. Smoothing out with my finger dipped in acetone. (This stuff is toxic, use at your own risk). Removed the masking tape and cleaned up excess with paper towel and acetone as I spun the rim on the axle. Let this sit for 24 hours.
Third coat. No masking tape. Added another thin layer and cleaned up with acetone.
Cleaned up valve stem hole and installed a NAPA motorcycle tubeless valve stem.
I would share pictures of the process, but my cell phone died and I lost all the images. Not going to take the wheel and tire off to share pictures of the finished rim. I did clean up the rim sealing surface of any imperfections and cleaned the tire sealing bead of all mold marks by buffing with a green scotch brite pad before installing the tire on the rim. The tires hold pressure great. They show know signs of leaking after 1 year.
I converted from the stock steel wheels to Excell Aluminum. Total weight loss or rotating mass was more than 10 pounds per wheel.
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I converted from the stock steel wheels to Excell Aluminum. Total weight loss or rotating mass was more than 10 pounds per wheel.
Normally, I would think this is an exaggeration, but after picking up the front wheel from my Nevada 750, it blew me away how heavy that pig was. Oink Oink, too many donuts!
I honestly can't ever remember picking up a motorcycle wheel that was that heavy. Probably did, but in my younger days.
Maybe the original owner was a farmer and he filled the tube with calcium chloride to get more traction in the winter...... would explain the Nevada reluctance to wheelie under power......
Plus when you add in the additional weight lost due to no tube.....
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Note to self: Remember that when loosening spoke nipples to clean the threads of Loctite, it's really easy to go one turn too far, meaning the nipple will thread completely off the spoke and drop right down into the tire. $#!! and double $#!!.
Sarah
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Normally, I would think this is an exaggeration, but after picking up the front wheel from my Nevada 750, it blew me away how heavy that pig was. Oink Oink, too many donuts!
I honestly can't ever remember picking up a motorcycle wheel that was that heavy. Probably did, but in my younger days.
Maybe the original owner was a farmer and he filled the tube with calcium chloride to get more traction in the winter...... would explain the Nevada reluctance to wheelie under power......
Plus when you add in the additional weight lost due to no tube.....
I thought the same when I picked up the front wheel from my 02 stone.. OMG I couldnt believe how heavy it was!!!! Granted Im 20 years older then the last time I changed tires on a bike, but I sure dont remember the last one being that heavy!!!
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Note to self: Remember that when loosening spoke nipples to clean the threads of Loctite, it's really easy to go one turn too far, meaning the nipple will thread completely off the spoke and drop right down into the tire. $#!! and double $#!!.
Sarah
Personally, it is hard for me to respect a woman who does not swear. Prior to meeting me, my wife never used to swear. She does now!
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I thought the same when I picked up the front wheel from my 02 stone.. OMG I couldnt believe how heavy it was!!!! Granted Im 20 years older then the last time I changed tires on a bike, but I sure dont remember the last one being that heavy!!!
I recently took a Suzuki SV 650 front wheel modified to fit my DR 650 into the local dealer to get a tire mounted. Even that cast aluminum wheel and tire combo was much lighter than my spoked Nevada front wheel.
Makes one wonder how much weight could be saved by substituting a few parts.
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I used one of those pen-sized telescoping magnets to fish the nipple out, reassembled the spoke and re-treated with the Loctite. Re-tested with my Q-tip and soapy water and had two different spokes leaking. This is on the rear wheel, the front is still holding steady. So I'll leave the front alone for now and keep a close eye. I now have the rear wheel off the bike and the tire off the rim while I study what to do next.
First of all let me ask: Are alloy rims available for these wheels? These things are steel and absolutely heavy as hell. This rear rim also has a good amount of rust on the inside, much of it right around the spoke nipples, requiring a whole bunch of clean up before I can even think about going the silicone or tape route. I know nothing about wheel building, so any input is much appreciated. Alloy rims, please?
Sarah
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I used one of those pen-sized telescoping magnets to fish the nipple out, reassembled the spoke and re-treated with the Loctite. Re-tested with my Q-tip and soapy water and had two different spokes leaking. This is on the rear wheel, the front is still holding steady. So I'll leave the front alone for now and keep a close eye. I now have the rear wheel off the bike and the tire off the rim while I study what to do next.
First of all let me ask: Are alloy rims available for these wheels? These things are steel and absolutely heavy as hell. This rear rim also has a good amount of rust on the inside, much of it right around the spoke nipples, requiring a whole bunch of clean up before I can even think about going the silicone or tape route. I know nothing about wheel building, so any input is much appreciated. Alloy rims, please?
Sarah
I was kinda surprised how much rust was inside the rim on my 02 stone also. For a lot mile, clean bike I didnt expect any.. And ya... those wheels are porkers!!!!!
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at some point spoked wheels will need tightening which is going to brake the glued nipples seal.
when I was a honda mechanic in the seventies we would check spokes by tapping them loose ones would make a different
sound than tight ones... just saying something to consider
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(https://i.ibb.co/QFKJ4K5/Tubess-Rim-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFKJ4K5)
This is my rear wheel with 3M sealant applied on an Excel Aluminum rim and SS spokes and nipples.
Applied in three phases.
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Do you mind telling me how you went about sourcing the rim, John? I know beans about anything to do with wheel building.
Stamped on my Front Rim: DOT T 18X2.50 TLA 36
Rear Rim: DOT T 16X300 D 36
The rest of you please feel free to chime in too, and thanks again for riding along with me this far.
Sarah
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(https://i.ibb.co/QFKJ4K5/Tubess-Rim-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFKJ4K5)
This is my rear wheel with 3M sealant applied on an Excel Aluminum rim and SS spokes and nipples.
Applied in three phases.
Looks great. Did you notice a significant difference due to loss of unsprung weight? Ditto on the sources, especially spokes!
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Do you mind telling me how you went about sourcing the rim, John? I know beans about anything to do with wheel building.
Stamped on my Front Rim: DOT T 18X2.50 TLA 36
Rear Rim: DOT T 16X300 D 36
The rest of you please feel free to chime in too, and thanks again for riding along with me this far.
Sarah
Here you go Sarah. I've heard good things about both Buchanans and Woodys.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=W_xYXqLeHNywytMPy4yR6AI&q=motorcycle+wheel+builders&oq=motorcycle+wheel+builders&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l6j0i22i30l4.5314.15124..15521...4.0..0.57.1269.29......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131j0i10.KDQXJih5vaQ&ved=0ahUKEwji96qFlfTnAhVcmHIEHUtGBC0Q4dUDCAs&uact=5
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I'm guessing/hoping the "36" stamped into the rims refers to the number of holes? (Hadn't gotten around to counting yet) A quick glance at Buchanan's shows some options for 18X2.50, but 16X3.00?? I apologize if I am completely off track.
Sarah
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I'm guessing/hoping the "36" stamped into the rims refers to the number of holes? (Hadn't gotten around to counting yet) A quick glance at Buchanan's shows some options for 18X2.50, but 16X3.00?? I apologize if I am completely off track.
Sarah
Sarah,
If I was going to go to the trouble of replacing the rear rim, I would go with a 17" rim and a more modern profile tire, assuming of course clearance exists. 17" also on the front. Just my $0.02!
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Hadn't even thought of that. I think I'd keep the 18" front though, I like the way it feels in gravel. For now, I'll put new tubes in the tires and go with the Ride-On Sealant Charlie mentioned a page or so ago. And keep on pondering.
Sarah
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Sarah - why not get rid of the rust and seal them the conventional way? To remove the rust the easy way, soak them in white vinegar a day or two, then brush off. No real elbow grease required. Only a couple bucks a gallon, and even though discolored, will still work for the next de-rusting project.
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Well, I used a wire brush and a good amount of elbow grease and have the rear rim looking pretty good. Some of the spoke heads still aren't perfectly clean though, vinegar would probably be the ticket there. I've found myself getting impatient and just want to ride the thing, so I've got the inner tube and Ride-On sitting on the kitchen table at the moment. What do you consider the conventional way of sealing the spokes? My front tire is still holding perfectly steady with nothing but the Loctite. I don't feel I can trust it though, because my rear did the same for a month, then began leaking. Frustrating, for sure. Thanks again for the input.
Sarah
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Well, I used a wire brush and a good amount of elbow grease and have the rear rim looking pretty good. Some of the spoke heads still aren't perfectly clean though, vinegar would probably be the ticket there. I've found myself getting impatient and just want to ride the thing, so I've got the inner tube and Ride-On sitting on the kitchen table at the moment. What do you consider the conventional way of sealing the spokes? My front tire is still holding perfectly steady with nothing but the Loctite. I don't feel I can trust it though, because my rear did the same for a month, then began leaking. Frustrating, for sure. Thanks again for the input.
Sarah
Another thought... not that you need any additional options is a lot of road biased adventure bikes use a 2.5 x 19 front rim. Might have to fit 1/2" tall spacers between the fork brace and fork lugs to get clearance.
When I finally get around to doing this (on a couple bikes), I will go with the 3M sealant and 3M sealing tape. I've seen posts where either by itself seems to work well. The few drops of Loctite sealing each spoke just seems to me like it requires too many stars to line up to work properly.
I've a big fan of visible fixes rather than invisible fixes.
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I used just 100 percent GE silicone in a small squeeze tube on my 72 Eldorado but they are Aluminium rims with Stainless spokes.
My buddy who spent his working life glazing autos told me silicone will rot out steel (especially the stuff that smells of vinegar)
and told me to use the same sealant used on windscreens, a Urethane either Sika a Swiss product or Dow Corning Primerless
It stands to reason it should be good, water is even harder to keep out than air is to keep in. :evil:
I posted the boat sealant I am going to try as soon as I get my act together.
I found the 3M tape hard to purchase up here then only 3" wide so i'm going to try gorilla tape
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What I meant by conventional is sealant on the inside like Roy suggests, as opposed to the unconventional approach of wicking loctite on spoke threads. I suppose the real conventional approach is a large air filled rubber bladder.
Naval jelly on the nipple dimples will also dissolve the rust and eliminate tons of elbow grease.
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I
I found the 3M tape hard to purchase up here then only 3" wide so i'm going to try gorilla tape
I was wondering how Flexseal tape compared to the 3M stuff... Might be something to check out.
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What I meant by conventional is sealant on the inside like Roy suggests, as opposed to the unconventional approach of wicking loctite on spoke threads. I suppose the real conventional approach is a large air filled rubber bladder.
Naval jelly on the nipple dimples will also dissolve the rust and eliminate tons of elbow grease.
OK I see, thanks. I think I'm going with tubes for now, meanwhile I'm getting smarter all the time thanks to the input from you folks. By the way, my freshly sanded rear wheel, with 2 rounds of electrical tape over the spoke heads along with a new rim strip, weighs 17.5 lbs. I can't recall ever weighing a wheel before so can't offer a comparison, but that just seems ridiculous.
Sarah
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. . . silicone will rot out steel (especially the stuff that smells of vinegar) . . .
I can vouch for that, and not just Steel I believe, I think it can cause Aluminium (and its Alloys) to corrode as well.
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Well I did bolth mine with the 5200 and 3M tape, and they are holding great. Front has held air 100% since day one. rear lost 4 lbs the first day, and has some seep out of sealer from one of the nipples.. after refilling its been 100%. Granted I did not use the fast cure... so I believe parts of the rear were maybe not cured enough that first day. Holding air better then the old tubes were.
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I also had really good luck with my V85 rims using the 3M 5200. I checked the periodically the first couple months and now I have pretty much forgotten about it. No change. It is a pain and time consuming to do but it works well so the net result is a huge win.
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I also had really good luck with my V85 rims using the 3M 5200. I checked the periodically the first couple months and now I have pretty much forgotten about it. No change. It is a pain and time consuming to do but it works well so the net result is a huge win.
Oh it took forever to do!!! But again I used the non quick dry 5200... you could only do about 5 spoke nipples a day, so you didnt have the stuff sagging out of the holes.
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Oh it took forever to do!!! But again I used the non quick dry 5200... you could only do about 5 spoke nipples a day, so you didnt have the stuff sagging out of the holes.
I used the slow cure as well, but used a different approach. I would do 4-5 spokes then I put on a piece of the 6" wide shrink wrap plastic and smoothed it down. Then I did the next group and so on until completed, all in one session. I took a couple days until the plastic was ready to pull off. I some places it still stuck so I wet my finger and smoothed the surface. Immediately after I put on the tape and used a roller that I made up to press everything flat as well as a heat gun. Very involved but I only wanted to do it once, and it paid off.
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I finally got motivated to start my tubeless V7iii conversion.
I decided to start on the front as this tire has a lot of life left and I would rather not start on a new tread.
I know for a lot of you you wouldn't consider converting a wheel without a safety bead so I'm pleased to be able to say that my V7iii has safety beads on the rims or at least it does on the front, not that lack of would deter me, my 72 Eldorado has been fine for years.
I removed the front tire and cleaned up the wheel with Acetone followed by a scrubbing with a SS wire brush. The valve has an 8mm hole the rim is 6mm thick at the centre so it could easily be tapped 1/8 Gas for a tank valve but I will use valves with an 8mm body and "O" ring seal that I purchased on the internet.
In the past I have used 100% silicon from GE but this time I will try a boat sealant Sikaflex 291i
After applying 3 coats of the Sikaflex I applied a single layer of crystal clear Gorilla Tape to offer some mechanical protection then I put back the rubber tube protector that was over the spoke heads, I figure it can only help protect the sealant. The tire sealed straight away and popped onto the beads at 30 psi, so far no leaks.
I think the rear tire should be easier as there is more room to work.
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any reason why you choose that instead of the 3M 5200 fast dry.
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any reason why you choose that instead of the 3M 5200 fast dry.
I know when I was shopping, I could not find 5200 anywhere!! Not sure if that was a issue with him though.. I picked up a tube of Loctite PL marine I was going to use.. But ended up ordering the 5200 from Amazon.. Mine are done, but interesting to see how the Sikaflex works. I found pretty much nothing on using other brand Marine sealants.
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i got a tube 3oz on amazon but they were out when i went to order another last week. but our local home depot has 14 on the shelf.
the 5200 need the directions read. no alcohol can be used to clean it keeps it from setting, proper setting temp is 70. not 60 not 90 but 70 etc.
I had about 5 spokes leaking from the silicone so I had to remove it all and did it with the 5200 fast dry. BTW fast dry is a lie! I still have one spoke that leaks a tiny bit. I can't fathom how or why I did a terrific job and it's way covered up. strangely the rear rim never leaked a bit and I had used silicone on it. both were different gasket maker type. one red one black.
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I saw these rim seals a few years back - lighter than a full size tube. I dont know if these work well/endure. FYI.
(https://i.ibb.co/HH2T9qC/a-sealing-tube.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HH2T9qC)
(https://i.ibb.co/FKHrhxR/a-sealing-tube-rim.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FKHrhxR)
:huh:
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any reason why you choose that instead of the 3M 5200 fast dry.
Yes I planing to use the 3M product but I couldn't find it around town. I was visiting the local Yamaha dealer they also deal in boats and had the Sikaflex product in stock so why not try it eh!
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All good with that front tire, Roy? If so, you're halfway there!
Sarah
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Well my conversion has worked great so far. Havent lost a lb in the rear, and the front has dropped about 2-3 since I mounted them up over a month ago, and a few hundred miles of riding. I lost more then that with the tubes.. Im happy so far.
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I should of said i just used tire levers and rim protectors to get the tire off, my tire guy gave me some of the lubricant he uses to brush on the tire to get it back on, just needed 2 tire irons.
I bounced it around on the concrete for a while before hitting it with air to encourage it to start seating and tested for leaks under water.
Update:
I also have the rear tire tubeless now, the same process carefully filling in the cavity around the spoke heads followed by another two thin layers of Sikaflex 291i followed by a layer of Crystal Clear Gorilla tape and the original rubber band.
I must say using the sealant in the standard size tube was much easier than the small toothpaste size tube.
I spooned the tire on aired it up and checked it for leaks under water.