Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bikeridertim on March 03, 2020, 07:41:19 PM
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Last Sunday I pulled the the MGX out fired her up and off I went. I made my first stop after approximately 3 miles to fill up. Next stop was approximately 40 miles later at a state park for approximately 20 minutes. Next stop approximately 30 miles later on the side of the road. I was doing approximately 65 to 70 miles an hour, 4th gear just minding my own business, and then it started, I dropped the left cylinder first. I Road about two miles to turn onto my road and when I pulled the clutch in it died completely. I tried to jump start thanks to a passerby who stopped with cables it will crank, but not fire. Moving on I now have it in my shed. And the rest of the story is.... January 29th I put a brand new battery in. Battery has been on a battery tender when not being ridden. This was also the first trip where I used a new to me electric jacket liner. My first thought was put it on the battery tender let it charge and tomorrow all will be good to go. Thinking there was a problem with the jacket liner and maybe I was using a lot more wattage then I thought. Not so lucky. Today I took the battery out took it back to where I bought it thinking it would not take a load. The battery checked out fine, I also stopped and had it checked by somebody else for a second opinion. Now here is where it gets strange to me, sitting on the motorcycle turn the key on my Dash tells me 12.3V my meter tells me 12.35V When I hit the starter button everything drops to 10.7-10.5V. I have checked all the fuses I could find, felt all the relays as I turn the key on and they all click, I also moved the relays one position to the right, all the relays have 5 prongs. I checked the wire to the starter and have 12.3 until I hit the button. I also can smell fuel after I have tried to start it. I am at 6500 Miles and 1 years of riding and other than the battery, nothing else. Any suggestions before I rent a truck or trailer to take it to the dealer? I really hate to because the dealer here has no experience but maybe 5 months. Yes I know it's covered under warranty, and I have another bike to ride but still hard to trust someone with such little experience on such a complicated piece of electronics and machinery. Any HELP would be greatly appreciated.
Tim
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The voltage drop is nothing to be overly concerned about. So have you checked for spark at the plugs ? Peter
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Several MGX's have had loose main ground, and power connections at starter. Pull the cover over the starter and confirm the spade connector is fully on, main power terminal on the starter, and main ground.
Are you saying the bike cranks, but acts like it has no spark? The Voltage drop while cranking is not an issue.
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Yes the bike cranks over. I will pull a plug or 2 tomorrow after work.
Does anyone know where the other end of the ground goes?
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Have you ever detected the fuel smell before this ?
Could it have lost pressure in the lines ? Is it prudent to disconnect the injectors to see if they’re producing ?
I would try to trace the fuel smell for starters.
Do you know if you have spark at both cylinders ?
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Can you confirm that the fuel pump runs for a couple of seconds when you turn the key from Off to On?
My initial thought was the battery ground as well but it cranks ok
I would still pull the starter off and double check the ground.
Did you notice anything else unusual like loss of speed signal?
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2 cents- If all was working well, then you filled up and ran about 2 gallons of that out (70 miles worth), I would suspect the gas had some gradu in it. I have always thought if something changes after I change something, that's the first place I look. Pull the plugs and either change or clean, drain the tank and change the fuel filter. Inexpensive, quick and doesn't require a lot of time. There's not a downside and if that's the issue, done
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2 cents- If all was working well, then you filled up and ran about 2 gallons of that out (70 miles worth), I would suspect the gas had some gradu in it. I have always thought if something changes after I change something, that's the first place I look. Pull the plugs and either change or clean, drain the tank and change the fuel filter. Inexpensive, quick and doesn't require a lot of time. There's not a downside and if that's the issue, done
THIS ah ha, my thoughts exzackoli !!!
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Agreed, bad gas could mimic all your symptoms. Too easy to check/test. Definitely pull the plugs, they will tell a story.
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Well there is good news, and there is bad news. The good news is I have spark!! :laugh: The bad news is I have spark but still wont start. :cry: I checked everything listed in this post and all are good. (except the gas, I buy my gas at the same place every time for 2 bikes, a car and truck I think its good....)
After spending my lunch hour looking at the wiring diagram for this thing, I think I'm going to take it to the shop. With spark and gas and not running there could be 100 different things. I have warranty left and I feel that I might as well use it. I have worked on bikes and cars for almost 40 years, but this bike is "Above my pay grade" I will let you know!
Thanks Aging for all your help!
Tim
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Well there is good news, and there is bad news. The good news is I have spark!! :laugh: The bad news is I have spark but still wont start. :cry: I checked everything listed in this post and all are good. (except the gas, I buy my gas at the same place every time for 2 bikes, a car and truck I think its good....)
After spending my lunch hour looking at the wiring diagram for this thing, I think I'm going to take it to the shop. With spark and gas and not running there could be 100 different things. I have warranty left and I feel that I might as well use it. I have worked on bikes and cars for almost 40 years, but this bike is "Above my pay grade" I will let you know!
Thanks Aging for all your help!
Tim
Tim,
When you turn on the key, do you hear the fuel system pressurize?
When you crank it, does it kick at all? Open/closed throttle make a difference?
After attempting to start a few times and pull the plugs, are they wet? If no spark they will be wet with fuel, if you dont hear the pump cycle, or the plugs are dry, is a fuel issue.
If you have Guzzi Diag, you could pull the injector out and stick it in a jar and cycle the injectors to confirm fuel flow.
I know what you mean about the bike being complex, but I am like a dog on a bone with this stuff.... lol The ride by wire and all the electronics keep me up at night sometimes, and I don't think the MGX will be a long term keeper. BUt I love it for now!
Good luck man, keep us posted!
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Reading back over your original post it soundsds more & more like a bad ground what happens is the negative goes below ground even though it still reads
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Well, if you have spark and gas.
Then it’s timing, or compression. What’s that thing that Roper points to every time and he’s usually correct.
Ignition pick up or something...
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I suppose it's not the infamous demand sensor that Pete mentioned regarding Kev's bike?
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Wouldn’t a bad demand sensor also throw an error code on the dash?
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----------- Dash tells me 12.3V my meter tells me 12.35V When I hit the starter button everything drops to 10.7-10.5V. I have checked all the fuses I could find, felt all the relays as I turn the key on and they all click, I also moved the relays one position to the right, all the relays have 5 prongs. I checked the wire to the starter and have 12.3 until I hit the button. I also can smell fuel after I have tried to start it. I am at 6500 Miles and 1 years of riding and other than the battery, nothing else. Any suggestions before I rent a truck or trailer to take it to the dealer? I really hate to because the dealer here has no experience but maybe 5 months.
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This tells me its a bad connection in the battery circuit
The fuel smell would be from unburnt fuel I believe the main ground connection is behind the starter motor, even though the connection looks good take it off, file both the chassis and the lug then apply some grease before bolting it back do the same for both battery connections. I assume you know to remove the negative battery lead first and replace it last.
Use Vaseline NOT dielectric grease.
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The fuel pump will run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on and it must start again when the motor is cranking over, I often advocate a small lamp to prove this since you cannot hear it over the racket the engine makes. I would also do the same for relay (36) in fact it's the first thing I did to my new Guzzi, in spite of being a sparky for over 50 years, I still can't see electricity without help.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Entire.gif see the power feed from relay (35) powers up the pump, coils and injectors, wrap a tiny wire around the relay pin, run it to a lamp with the other side grounded to chassis. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Legend.gif
I haven't had anyone claim they have a 1400 with an Antitheft device (23/24) but that would add to the confusion if you had one of those.
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Well, if you have spark and gas.
Then it’s timing, or compression. What’s that thing that Roper points to every time and he’s usually correct.
Ignition pick up or something...
That's what I am thinking. fuel pump runs , got gas, got spark. Only thing is no warning light. Yellow or red.
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Well, if you have spark and gas.
Then it’s timing, or compression. What’s that thing that Roper points to every time and he’s usually correct.
Ignition pick up or something...
You mean the Revolution Sensor (52) that's the reason I like to have a small lamp on the secondary injection relay.
This little little light is a troubleshooting aid, i add under the seat to all my FI bikes, it tells me I have power to the coils and injectors.
The Revolution sensor is a simple coil wound around a small magnet but if it fails you are dead in the water.
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Last Sunday I pulled the the MGX out fired her up and off I went. I made my first stop after approximately 3 miles to fill up. Next stop was approximately 40 miles later at a state park for approximately 20 minutes. Next stop approximately 30 miles later on the side of the road. I was doing approximately 65 to 70 miles an hour, 4th gear just minding my own business, and then it started, I dropped the left cylinder first. I Road about two miles to turn onto my road and when I pulled the clutch in it died completely. I tried to jump start thanks to a passerby who stopped with cables it will crank, but not fire. Moving on I now have it in my shed. And the rest of the story is.... January 29th I put a brand new battery in. Battery has been on a battery tender when not being ridden. This was also the first trip where I used a new to me electric jacket liner. My first thought was put it on the battery tender let it charge and tomorrow all will be good to go. Thinking there was a problem with the jacket liner and maybe I was using a lot more wattage then I thought. Not so lucky. Today I took the battery out took it back to where I bought it thinking it would not take a load. The battery checked out fine, I also stopped and had it checked by somebody else for a second opinion. Now here is where it gets strange to me, sitting on the motorcycle turn the key on my Dash tells me 12.3V my meter tells me 12.35V When I hit the starter button everything drops to 10.7-10.5V. I have checked all the fuses I could find, felt all the relays as I turn the key on and they all click, I also moved the relays one position to the right, all the relays have 5 prongs. I checked the wire to the starter and have 12.3 until I hit the button. I also can smell fuel after I have tried to start it. I am at 6500 Miles and 1 years of riding and other than the battery, nothing else. Any suggestions before I rent a truck or trailer to take it to the dealer? I really hate to because the dealer here has no experience but maybe 5 months. Yes I know it's covered under warranty, and I have another bike to ride but still hard to trust someone with such little experience on such a complicated piece of electronics and machinery. Any HELP would be greatly appreciated.
Tim
I was finely able to get the MGX to the dealer last Saturday, and was sent this message about 6 hours after dropping it off.
"Our technician had time to look at your motorcycle and here is what he says, "VERIFIED NO START. NOTICED HAD A CHECK ENGINE LIGHT. CONNECTED TO P.A.D.S. FOUND THROTTLE POSITION WAS NOT PERFORMED. THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN ON ITS OWN. RESET THROTTLE SENSORS. ERASED OTHER CODES. STARTED TO REMOVE SPARK PLUGS. FOUND LOWER SPARK PLUG ON LH CYLINDER IS DAMAGED. PISTON HAS MADE CONTACT WITH IT. NEED TO REMOVE CYLINDER HEAD AND CYLINDER TO FURTHER DETERMINE REPAIRS NEEDED. WITH FURTHER REVIEW OF SPARK PLUGS. LOWER RH SPARK PLUG HAS MADE CONTACT AS WELL. WITH PULLING ON CYLINDER OFF WILL SHOW US WHICH DIRECTION WE NEED TO GO FOR REPAIRS."
Because they are closed Sun, and Mon I didn't hear back from them until today.This is what I saw.....
(https://i.imgur.com/Ryazq0e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9j5EuBB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/S2J3mus.jpg)
Yes my MGX with a little over 6500 miles, dropped a valve. :cry:
I am being sent a new motor from the factory "Air Fright" it is in stock and who know how long it will take with everything going on......
Both techs and the shop manger said they have never seen another 1400 do this. I guess mine and Luaps are 'One of a Kind!" :boozing: :boozing:
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This should scare the H£|| our of everyone who has a 1400, it sure does me. I rode my 2015 tourer to the beach today, 250 miles. The 1400 is the smoothest most responsive motor I’ve ever had any dealings with.
Hope you get your bike back ASAP.
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Luap's is left side.
But it was the timing chain adjuster.
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Wow. That’s terrible news. Any diagnosis yet of why it dropped the valve?
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Wow. That’s terrible news. Any diagnosis yet of why it dropped the valve?
Not yet. Service manager said Guzzi might want it back for inspection.
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I hate to say it but your bike isn't the only one. In Jun I was interested in an Audace that was at at a dealer in Reno Nv. I actually wanted to buy the bike in 2017. But the dealer was less than responsive so I passed and bought a Harley. A couple of years later after being fed up with the Harley I started looking for another Audace. I found one at a No Calif dealer that was somehow associated with the dealer in Reno. Anyway I rode quite a ways to look at and ride the bike. When I got there there said the bike had a problem and couldn't be ridden. I was told the manager had taken it out to make sure it was ready to go and the engine locked up during his ride Anyway I was told by the salesman that they would rebuild the engine and call me when it was done. I was pretty sceptical at this point but I wanted to test ride this model before I committed to one. Kind of a rare model but there was one in SoCal. The service manager was the only one in this dealership who was a straight shooter. The bike was actually the same one on the floor in Reno almost 3 years earlier. So it had been basically sitting for almost 3 years. It turns out it had been sold once even though it was advertised as new but repoed due to a fraudulent credit app. The service manager was shocked when I asked what had to be done in the rebuild. She said the engine wasn't rebuilt but Piaggio had sent a new engine for the bike. I then asked what had actually happened to the original engine. She said it had dropped a valve. So now knowing the bike had a new engine I went ahead and bought the bike. So far it has been fine and I love the bike. It had 543 miles on it when it dropped the valve, it now has 5,500 miles under our belts and all is fine. Maybe there was a problem at one point at the factory, mine is a 2016.
kk
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Very impressive for Piaggio to take such quick action and to ship a whole new motor. No idea why the valve dropped but none the less, congratulations to the dealer and to Piaggio.
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It took a month to fix the one I have but my guess is that the dealer was the weak link.
kk
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What are the possible causes of this type of damage to both cylinder heads?
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What are the possible causes of this type of damage to both cylinder heads?
For the valves to collide on both sides, it would have to be a valve timing issue common to both banks.
Is the drive to the camshafts similar to a Griso or an early Norge ?
Something’s let go in the drive from the crank ?
Did I miss the bit where you said the compression was a bit low...? :popcorn:
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DANG !!!
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Very impressive for Piaggio to take such quick action and to ship a whole new motor. No idea why the valve dropped but none the less, congratulations to the dealer and to Piaggio.
It will be impressive if the new motor actually shows up in less than 2 weeks... :popcorn:
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If the timing chain went south, a'la Luap's bike, at speed, could that have caused this issue?
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If the timing chain went south, a'la Luap's bike, at speed, could that have caused this issue?
You'd think the valves would stay closed when the chain lost tension, unless the chain was stuck when the valves were open.
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You'd think the valves would stay closed when the chain lost tension, unless the chain was stuck when the valves were open.
You may be lucky enough for that to happen, but remember that the valves on one cylinder are only closed in unison while the piston is coming up on compression and on the power stroke.
Even then, the opposite cylinder will be at a different phase.
You’ll never have all valves closed at the same time.
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Very impressive for Piaggio to take such quick action and to ship a whole new motor. No idea why the valve dropped but none the less, congratulations to the dealer and to Piaggio.
Maybe the same problem that BMW and Norton and Triumph have all had .....
.... take an engine configuration designed in the 1930s as a 500cc with 25 HP, keep bumping and bumping and bumping the CCs to keep up with the neighbors, until you have a 750 or 850 or 1200 or 1400 with 100 HP, and wonder why rear drives and valves and cranks don't hold up?
One of those things that makes you say "Hmmmm...". And you have to be an old man with a broad view to even see that whole train in one look ....
Lannis
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What really has me going HMMMMM, is the fact that the engine has a mechanical failure and the operator is thinking dead battery? Like what was all that rattling and crunching going on just before the silence? :huh: :evil: DonG
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What really has me going HMMMMM, is the fact that the engine has a mechanical failure and the operator is thinking dead battery? Like what was all that rattling and crunching going on just before the silence? :huh: :evil: DonG
The battery breaking...? :popcorn:
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You may be lucky enough for that to happen, but remember that the valves on one cylinder are only closed in unison while the piston is coming up on compression and on the power stroke.
Even then, the opposite cylinder will be at a different phase.
You’ll never have all valves closed at the same time.
My point was with a timing chain coming loose, that there wouldn't be pressure on the valves. On the other hand, if the chain jumps the sprocket, it can go out of time and "crash". I suppose that is likely outcome since I know folks that have destroyed a few of motors for that reason.
I'd say my original point was off base.
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What really has me going HMMMMM, is the fact that the engine has a mechanical failure and the operator is thinking dead battery? Like what was all that rattling and crunching going on just before the silence? :huh: :evil: DonG
If you read the original post you would see how I was doing about 70 miles an hour. And I also had a battery problem in the previous weeks. All I can say is at 70 miles an hour with cars around you I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to valves dropping, as it continued to run on one cylinder and thinking what the @#* is going on!
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Well, it wasn't electrical, thats all I can say.
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Well, it wasn't electrical, thats all I can say.
:laugh: :rolleyes: :laugh:
Dusty
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Well, it wasn't electrical, thats all I can say.
Well it could be...
I once stopped to hep an old guy who’s car had broken down on the side of the road..
It was after dark and the relic was sitting there in a pool of black oil in pitch darkness, (the car, not the bloke..)
When I asked if there was something I could do to help, he replied..
“Oh I think I’ve got an electrical problem..”
“Jeez, says I”, (looking at the tsunami of 7 year old crude running out from underneath...)” What leads you to that thought..”
“Well..” (says the old timer ruefully stroking his beard and staring at the carnage..)
“Looks like she’s thrown a con rod and it’s come out through the side..”
“How’s that electrical then..” ?
“Well (opines the old timer), it’s knocked the generator clean off it’s mountings..” :rolleyes:
Well alllrrigghhhttyyy then..... :bike-037:
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Well it could be...
I once stopped to hep an old guy who’s car had broken down on the side of the road..
It was after dark and the relic was sitting there in a pool of black oil in pitch darkness, (the car, not the bloke..)
When I asked if there was something I could do to help, he relied..
“Oh I think I’ve got an electrical problem..”
“Jeez, says I”, (looking at the tsunami of 7 year old crude running out from underneath...)” What leads you to that thought..”
“Well..” (says the old timer ruefully stroking his beard and staring at the carnage..)
“Looks like she’s thrown a con rod and it’s come out through the side..”
“How’s that electrical then..”)
“Well (opines the old timer), it’s knocked the generator clean off it’s off it’s mountings..” :rolleyes:
Well alllrrigghhhttyyy then..... :bike-037:
Can remeber if his name was Allan grince or Win Percy per chance?
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Can remeber if his name was Allan grince or Win Percy per chance?
I heard it from Dick Johnson, but your point is well made Muzz...(bastard..)
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If the timing chain went south, a'la Luap's bike, at speed, could that have caused this issue?
I would say yes, absolutely.
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If you read the original post you would see how I was doing about 70 miles an hour. And I also had a battery problem in the previous weeks. All I can say is at 70 miles an hour with cars around you I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to valves dropping, as it continued to run on one cylinder and thinking what the @#* is going on!
If the timing slipped and the piston just kissed and bent the valve the drama would have been minimal. The cylinder would have lost compression. The mystery is how was it running on one cylinder? A timing slip of that magnitude would have effected the other cylinder as well.
I would look closely at the valve spring. A substandard spring can crack allowing the valve to contact the piston.
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Thank you for posting the images that show the engine damage to your low mileage MGX. If they determine what caused this problem, please let us know with an update.
(https://i.ibb.co/99PmVSF/9j5EuBB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/99PmVSF)
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Thank you for posting the images that show the engine damage to your low mileage MGX. If they determine what caused this problem, please let us know with an update.
(https://i.ibb.co/99PmVSF/9j5EuBB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/99PmVSF)
Is that a picture of the head on this MGX? ??##$$??!!!! How the F does that happen? head dropped an intake and exhaust valve AND wiped out one of the spark plugs?
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I would 1st find out if they are 1pc valves or welded on heads to valve stem. Guzzi IS cheap.
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Yes, that is the original photo from the fellow with the MGX, that described the "dropped valves" in his engine.
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Well it's time for a update.
I got my MGX back on the 25th of April. New motor from Guzzi, I have put about 675 miles on her so far and am very happy with how everything is running. (I was 14 months ago also) I have been told that the motor will be going to the Guzzi training center in CA for evaluation as to what happened. The dealership seems to think it was a broken two-piece valve. I will be staying in contact with the dealership for any more information. Now it's time for a set of tires, oil change and a summer of riding!!
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Well it's time for a update.
I got my MGX back on the 25th of April. New motor from Guzzi, I have put about 675 miles on her so far and am very happy with how everything is running. (I was 14 months ago also) I have been told that the motor will be going to the Guzzi training center in CA for evaluation as to what happened. The dealership seems to think it was a broken two-piece valve. I will be staying in contact with the dealership for any more information. Now it's time for a set of tires, oil change and a summer of riding!!
Glad you got it worked out and motor swap went so quickly. Quick question, I think that you said the dealer reported the lower plugs were damaged on both sides? Did it drop a valve on one side or both?
To the Guzzistas, which other models use a 2 piece valve stem? That's nukin futs............
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Nice update, now to find out what caused the destruction.
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Some one correct me if I'm wrong here , but valves are frequently 2 piece welded units .( Friction welded )
Some aftermarket companies ( Manley ) advertise that they make one piece stainless valves . Peter
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You are correct Moto, two piece more common due to cost in materials.
Paul B :boozing:
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Keep us posted on what you find out about the valve problem. It would be good to know if I am still riding a time bomb. Did they have a problem with valves and if so did they upgade? I may need to invest in a backup. I need a good excuse to put a V7 in the garage.
kk
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Glad you got it worked out and motor swap went so quickly. Quick question, I think that you said the dealer reported the lower plugs were damaged on both sides? Did it drop a valve on one side or both?
To the Guzzistas, which other models use a 2 piece valve stem? That's nukin futs............
Bulldog9,
It dropped a valve on the left cylinder and sucked debris into the right cylinder. If you see pictures from both sides it appears get it done it for a little bit. There was quite a bit of buildup on right side. :shocked:
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Keep us posted on what you find out about the valve problem. It would be good to know if I am still riding a time bomb. Did they have a problem with valves and if so did they upgade? I may need to invest in a backup. I need a good excuse to put a V7 in the garage.
kk
I definitely will keep everyone posted.
Honestly I don't think it's a known problem, actually I think it's a fluke. Only 1 other one that I have heard of, and it wasn't seen by the guy, just told "it dropped a valve" :tongue:
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I think that dealer did a good job for you. They quickly identified the problem (6 hours after drop off) without the bike standing around for weeks and got the ok for a new motor. You were back on the road pretty quick in my opinion. Considering you were worried about their lack of experience I think they did you proud. Maybe you'd like to mention the dealer in case others are reasonably close?
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I think that dealer did a good job for you. They quickly identified the problem (6 hours after drop off) without the bike standing around for weeks and got the ok for a new motor. You were back on the road pretty quick in my opinion. Considering you were worried about their lack of experience I think they did you proud. Maybe you'd like to mention the dealer in case others are reasonably close?
I am VERY happy with how this turned out!!!! You are right, They have done a GREAT job in my opinion!!!!
Team Charlotte in Charlotte NC is the dealer! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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I definitely will keep everyone posted.
Honestly I don't think it's a known problem, actually I think it's a fluke. Only 1 other one that I have heard of, and it wasn't seen by the guy, just told "it dropped a valve" :tongue:
I was also told by the manager who was ridind it said it instantly locked up.
kk
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You are correct Moto, two piece more common due to cost in materials.
Paul B :boozing:
More than that, really. The head can be made of material that will take high heat, and the stem material high wear and hardness. It's an elegant engineering solution to a tough problem.
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I just bought a new V85 from them Friday. Very impressed with the people / place, deal.
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Just to keep everyone updated, I just got a phone call from Piaggo in NJ! Wanted to know if I was happy with the repair (which I am) and if I had any questions. So I asked him if these 1400's had 2 piece valves, he's checking on it and will let me know.
Honestly I am totally surprised by this!! Has anyone else gotten a call from them??