Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom H on March 04, 2020, 12:18:04 AM
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On a round fin with a timing chain (or square fin for that matter), about how many miles should it last before you have to change it?
I'm not talking about a race bike, just a daily normal commuting driver.
Also...Do you need to change the gears as well with each chain or "something like" every X number of chains.
Thank you,
Tom
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It's the tensioner which gives up not the chain.
It's a duplex chain running in oil, should last 100k miles with no problems.
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Agree the standard tensioner isn't really up to the job so the chain can get sloppy and snatchy, chain can last 100k miles easy, so it should be fine
Most install a Valtech/Stucchi, or a late Guzzi model tennsioner depending on their take on it (like all things Guzzi there will be a LOT of different opinions as to what works best)
Personally if going to the trouble of going there anyway, if I was replacing the chain, I'd replace the sprockets too
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The manual tensioner appears to be fully to the left with no more adjustment and there is still movement in the chain. Maybe this engine has over 100,000 on it?
Thank you,
Tom
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The manual tensioner appears to be fully to the left with no more adjustment and there is still movement in the chain. Maybe this engine has over 100,000 on it?
Thank you,
Tom
I recently pulled one apart with 30k miles on it. The tensioner was fully to the left and the chain still had slack. It's rare that the o.e. "fixed" tensioner will actually tension the chain, even at low miles.
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It's rare that the o.e. "fixed" tensioner will actually tension the chain, even at low miles.
Does that mean the chain must be replaced, or is there an alternative chain tensioner that can take up the slack?
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Does that mean the chain must be replaced, or is there an alternative chain tensioner that can take up the slack?
Chain and tensioner should be replaced.
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Thanks all for the info! Looks like I need a new chain and probably go with the Valtech.
I guess that the manual tensioner really should be called a slop catcher :laugh:
Thanks again!
Tom
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About 90 000kms with an aftermarket tensioner/valtech.
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At least 150k kilometers and over 2 decades since using a new chain and the proper sprung loaded tensioner . I doubt I'll change it again in this lifetime :grin: . Peter
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Checked my tensioner at 33K miles. It was toast and had allowed the chain to wear excessively.
I put a Valtec in and replaced the chain.
btw you can buy a Mercedes Benz chain that is identical to the Guzzi one, except it has a split link and you have to remove some links
to get it to the correct size. I thought twice about the split link but I thought, if it works for MB it'll be fine in the Guzzi.
Sorry I can't find the part number, but I got the MB info from this forum, so hopefully, someone can help out with that.
From memory I only had to remove the lower sprocket in the chest.
(https://i.ibb.co/RCq22hF/IMG-0591.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RCq22hF)
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btw you can buy a Mercedes Benz chain that is identical to the Guzzi one, except it has a split link and you have to remove some links
to get it to the correct size. I thought twice about the split link but I thought, if it works for MB it'll be fine in the Guzzi.
Sorry I can't find the part number, but I got the MB info from this forum, so hopefully, someone can help out with that.
(https://i.ibb.co/RCq22hF/IMG-0591.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RCq22hF)
I have that info (copied below) saved with a note that the info originally came from Steve Ford.
When I did the timing chain on my CX100 a few years ago, I gave the Mercedes Benz parts numbers to a local Euro Car Dealer, I recall a bit of confusion over the parts numbers system having been updated.
In the end I bought a timing chain designed for a MB V8, that fit my big block, that was long enough to make 21/2 (not 3 as stated in the post) chains for my guzzi for about the same cost as shipping 1 guzzi chain up from the US with the poor dollar exchange rate etc. If someone really needs that part number, I could dig through stock and provide it.
It made sense for me in Canada to make it from MB stock available locally, and have a free spare chain in hand; but if I lived in the US where a pre-made timing chain might be be available locally at a much lower cost, you might be changing 4 quarters for a dollar, fwiw.
"Joe, could you please confirm the chain's part number?
I've found 000-997-69-94-MBZ for the genuine Mercedes part and 000-997-69-94-M48 for Iwis, the OEM supplier.
Thanks.
000-997-69-94 is the OEM MBZ number for the 2.8 liter twin cam 6 cylinder engine, 000-997-76-94 in the part number for the 4.5 liter v8. I use the v8 chain because it makes 3 guzzi chains, the 6 cylinder chain is shorter so you may just get 2."
Edit; Just for fun I dug out the box so there would be a proper record of it here, the chain is labeled IWIS motorsysteme 000 997 76 94, if you go that route, make sure you order spare master links, because the chain only comes with one.
Upon reflection a further note about the install, I had read about the difficulty some people were having getting the ValTec tensioner into position, and the recommendation from a few people was, just manhandle it in, it's strong it won't break! I proved that theory wrong, it's only plastic after all, from experience the plastic will break right where the mounting post goes through it, if you try hard enough, js,lol
fyi
Kelly
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Im waiting on parts...
(https://i.ibb.co/LZttBR0/20200305-163152.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LZttBR0)
(https://i.ibb.co/mv16cdP/20200305-164236.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mv16cdP)
(https://i.ibb.co/SdcC4n1/20200305-164243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SdcC4n1)
the oil pump gear is worn out, compared to an unknown one from aCal2
more later
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Which is the worn one?
Tom
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The one closest to the camera is the worn one. On a non worn one you can see scallops in the valley, I’m guessing from a dull tool in manufacture. It’s done over 100 K miles and was still tight with the new style tensioner. Last oil change there was paste on the magnetic drain plug. When I drained it this time there was more paste and shining a strong light on the drain oil showed more sparklies. I ordered a new chain and oil pump, the old pump is still serviceable but was getting loose .
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What's the story on the tensioners? I've heard there are the Valtech and the Guzzi. It looks like the Guzzi is metal and a completely different design from the Valtech. Since the Valtech is plastic, I'd be tempted to go with the Guzzi - but what do I know? I'd like to hear pros and cons. Just guessing, but is the Guzzi tensioner a lot more expensive?
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Is there a pool of wisdom regarding the efficacy of the Valtek tensioner ?
I’m about to start work on my Norge with a view to removing the excess casting material in the timing chest to allow for the fitment of same..
Is there any info out there to suggest that the Valtek item will put excess load on the oil pump bearings ?
Also, has anyone replaced the piddly standard setup with the Valtek and did it prove a worthwhile mod ?
Is it quieter ?
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You just have to pay attention to the casting boss for the front cover bolt.
As per the picture, the top rests against the inner part of the engine case, the spring tension bows the blade to produce control of the chain.
The spring run over that boss (deflecting it) could produce extra tension, how much is to much is anyone's guess but there seems to be 1000's in service with no issue.
#
When the Moto Guzzi community accepts, biff your final drive on the bench to seat the outer bearing when shimming, the tweaked spring on the Valtec is hardly worth mentioning. :laugh:
The lump in question, is that which is in the region of the oil pump retaining bolts (not present in this shot), not the one to which you refer.
Just to the right of the two @ the 3 &4 o’clock positions.
(https://i.ibb.co/2W7qDvZ/03143111-65-AD-481-A-BE46-5577-D0-AF535-D.png) (https://ibb.co/2W7qDvZ)
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I had a totally stock Calvin 2009 that did around 15k miles before its tensioner shattered into little pieces, chain slipped off the oil pump and hey presto one seized motor.
nice.
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I forgot to mention in my previous post the the sprung loaded chain tensioner was a Valtec unit .
I believe you're over thinking the possible damage from this unit loading the oil pump bearings .
As mentioned, 150k , quiet , totally trouble free , cheap , what more could you ask for ?( oh yeah , and 2 decades ).
Peter
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What are the specs for the chain? Number of links, pitch,roller size ,etc. .
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^ It's less than $60 for a replacement from MG . Peter
You don't want to screw around with master links and split roller industrial chains , do you ?
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Les P
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/C.JPG)
Did you put the oil cups in the cam retainer? Seem like a good idea for controlling end float on hi milers. Does it help?
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I had a totally stock Calvin 2009 that did around 15k miles before its tensioner shattered into little pieces, chain slipped off the oil pump and hey presto one seized motor.
nice.
That's concerning, your experience sounds horrible, but it's the first time I've ever read of that happening, especially at such low mileage. :cry:
Sounds to me like it might have been assembled on Friday afternoon in Mandello, and destined for failure from the get go :evil:
When I did the timing chain on my CX100, it had 24k miles and the adjuster was doing nothing, not even close to touching the chain, let alone keep it tensioned. The chain was loose flopping around quite a bit and had worn part of 1 lug inside the case, but there was no indication it was loose enough to come off the sprocket. :undecided:
Fwiw, with the new chain and tensioner, the clunking and clattering sound of the engine seemed to quiet a bit, run tighter with a little bit of a whinery sound, similar to what I imagined gears would sound like.
I did so much other work on the bike, it was hard to attribute the marked improvement in the running to solely the new chain/tensioner; it may be wishful thinking, but after seeing how loose the old one was, it made sense to me, that timing, valves, breathing etc would have to improve with a steadier/tighter baseline to operate from :rolleyes:
I've never been inside the timing chest of the newer bikes, but I was under the impression that the tensioner design had improved a lot, I've never them a second thought in the new bikes, now I'm not so sure :undecided:
Kelly
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There's always this tensioner if you don't like the "Valtek" (all I've bought said "Millepercento" on them):
https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner-CNC-made-HMB-design
Hopefully the spring is a bit stronger than the o.e. Guzzi one, which does about as much tensioning as the early fixed one.
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I’m going into the timing case today to commence the process of machining away the offending lump of casting that precludes the fitment of the Valtek.
I’ve got some plans...
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That's concerning, your experience sounds horrible, but it's the first time I've ever read of that happening, especially at such low mileage. :cry:
Sounds to me like it might have been assembled on Friday afternoon in Mandello, and destined for failure from the get go :evil:
When I did the timing chain on my CX100, it had 24k miles and the adjuster was doing nothing, not even close to touching the chain, let alone keep it tensioned. The chain was loose flopping around quite a bit and had worn part of 1 lug inside the case, but there was no indication it was loose enough to come off the sprocket. :undecided:
Fwiw, with the new chain and tensioner, the clunking and clattering sound of the engine seemed to quiet a bit, run tighter with a little bit of a whinery sound, similar to what I imagined gears would sound like.
I did so much other work on the bike, it was hard to attribute the marked improvement in the running to solely the new chain/tensioner; it may be wishful thinking, but after seeing how loose the old one was, it made sense to me, that timing, valves, breathing etc would have to improve with a steadier/tighter baseline to operate from :rolleyes:
I've never been inside the timing chest of the newer bikes, but I was under the impression that the tensioner design had improved a lot, I've never them a second thought in the new bikes, now I'm not so sure :undecided:
Kelly
I think you meant a “whiney” sound...
Not “whinery” (sic), there may have been a “winery” involved somewhere in the story though.. :wink:
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The HMB reminds me of a stock EVT tensioner.
(https://i.ibb.co/Mp5XFrQ/DSCN1443-L.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mp5XFrQ)
Tom
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I think you meant a “whiney” sound...
Not “whinery” (sic), there may have been a “winery” involved somewhere in the story though.. :wink:
Well to make it grammatically correct I should have said "more whiney", but why bother using 2 words, when you can make up one that will suffice, "whinery" it is :thumb:
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HMB state that what they offer is a late model type tensioner to replace the early style ones
https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner_1 (https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner_1)
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Can't say I've noticed the Valtec making any noise in my engine.
A whine's got to be better than a loose chain thrashing around in the chest though.
Has anyone ever had a Valtec let go on them?
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In response to reply #29 , if that shoe is sprung loaded , why is it straight up ? How does it apply any tension ?
The Valtec has been excellent for so long I can't imagine anyone spending 3x as much for it . Peter
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In response to reply #29 , if that shoe is sprung loaded , why is it straight up ? How does it apply any tension ?
The Valtec has been excellent for so long I can't imagine anyone spending 3x as much for it . Peter
Those would be questions for HMB. Perhaps in the photo the spring isn't fitted.
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Yeah double check with HMB to be sure, but it's essentialy the same as the later model Guzzi tension
I checked on a photo of my engine when I removed the chain set up for a set of Joe Caruso steel gears (and think they are superb items)
Its just a shoe with the spring in around the shaft pivotn from memory it doesn't impart anything like the tension on the chain like the Stuuchi would.
You can actually see the locating wire at the end of the spring in the picture if you look closely.
I'm not arguing for one type of tensioner or the other as I've no skin in the game.
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In response to reply #29 , if that shoe is sprung loaded , why is it straight up ? How does it apply any tension ?
The Valtec has been excellent for so long I can't imagine anyone spending 3x as much for it . Peter
Looks like it uses the same mouse trap style spring as the standard one.
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Well all that went ok..
I tore into the timing chest and reefed the sprockets off then worked to remove the tensioner blade pivot pin.
It was as tight as a fish’s arse and I had to resort to boring down the side to extract it, like this
(https://i.ibb.co/WDqbChn/0-A2-B4-AD0-6-B78-4516-815-A-E128-BE0-C28-E0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WDqbChn)
(https://i.ibb.co/99c23Tb/56-F70379-1110-4117-9-D0-D-5-A90-B435-FF9-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/99c23Tb)
But I got it out and started to remove the offending lump
(https://i.ibb.co/f037r5y/82914395-B4-EA-4-A8-F-B051-305-A95-F3-F26-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f037r5y)
Eventually I got the excess away and in went the plate
(https://i.ibb.co/31tJkgJ/43-C6-E123-0738-4026-BD7-F-E2-F1353-FF17-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31tJkgJ)
Then I threw the sprockets back in and fitted the tensioner
(https://i.ibb.co/CQdg73h/AD7390-C7-AFB9-45-AE-B6-E2-CD65033-B77-FB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CQdg73h)
Poor old girl looks a bit vulnerable as I knock off for the day..
(https://i.ibb.co/h9xpX0x/777749-A1-FD1-C-4630-9-B71-3-AC1-C940-F160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9xpX0x)
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Beejeysus ! some drastic surgery happing in there Huzo !!I guess your trusting that this might be the solution to that engine hiccup/rattle that you started to experience?
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Beejeysus ! some drastic surgery happing in there Huzo !!I guess your trusting that this might be the solution to that engine hiccup/rattle that you started to experience?
She was just a bit loose sounding, FF.
We’ll see if there’s an improvement.
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So I ask again about the chain size,number of links,roller size etc....I have a new heavy duty Iwis chain that could fit a Guzzi but have no part number. Thanks
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So I ask again about the chain size,number of links,roller size etc....I have a new heavy duty Iwis chain that could fit a Guzzi but have no part number. Thanks
Sorry Rough, I have nothing of value to offer..
I can count the links and measure the roller size in the morning if it will help you..?
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Sorry Rough, I have nothing of value to offer..
I can count the links and measure the roller size in the morning if it will help you..?
Ok, and I will do the same
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So I ask again about the chain size,number of links,roller size etc....I have a new heavy duty Iwis chain that could fit a Guzzi but have no part number. Thanks
Hey Rough, If you go to the www.iwis.com site and plug in these part numbers, you should be able to find specs for the chain you are looking for;
I recall that that info was noted on my receipt for the chain, but I can't find it.
000 997 76 94 This is the chain I used, it's a match and works fine, enough total length for 21/2 guzzi chains (I believe that 76 denotes the number of links in the chain or possibly total length?)
000 997 05 98 This is the master link that fits the a/m chain
When I bought my chain, I dealt with the Mercedes Benz dealer, I didn't have the info concerning IWIS being the manufacture, but if the a/m doesn't get you the info that you're looking for on the IWIS site, try some of the following numbers from the previous WG post by Steve Ford.
Joe, could you please confirm the chain's part number?
I've found 000-997-69-94-MBZ for the genuine Mercedes part and 000-997-69-94-M48 for Iwis, the OEM supplier.
Thanks.
000-997-69-94 is the OEM MBZ number for the 2.8 liter twin cam 6 cylinder engine, 000-997-76-94 in the part number for the 4.5 liter v8. I use the v8 chain because it makes 3 guzzi chains, the 6 cylinder chain is shorter so you may just get 2."
Good luck
Kelly
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Found my original post from 2013 with regard to timing chain part numbers...was it really that long ago?
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=64202.0
Another interesting timing chain post, including input from the guru himself.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84066.0
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So I ask again about the chain size,number of links,roller size etc....I have a new heavy duty Iwis chain that could fit a Guzzi but have no part number. Thanks
The chain is 37 links
37 plates
74 pins
I cannot get my vernier onto the rollers cleanly for a dimension.
Internal spacing of the link (to clear the sprocket teeth) is 0.220” (220 thou’)
Plate thickness is 0.048” (48 thou’)
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Found my original post from 2013 with regard to timing chain part numbers...was it really that long ago?
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=64202.0
Another interesting timing chain post, including input from the guru himself.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84066.0
Hey Steve, I apologize for attributing that info I posted earlier on the MB chain as coming from Steve Ford, I must have had an old timer moment when I filed it;
I definitely copied it from your original post that you made 7 yrs ago, lol :bow:
Your info helped me immensely, I now have a spare leftover chain for whenever I need it. :thumb:
Tks for sharing the knowledge
Kelly
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The chain I have is dual strand 41 side plates or 82 links..I believe it's not metric...The pitch or pin centerline is. .380". rollers are 250". the distance between the inside side plates ..220"....I's a beautifful chain with oiling holes on the rollers that fits nothing, LOL
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Well, to quote the great Man himself..
(https://i.ibb.co/ZSZhd5L/270-DA08-F-A7-CD-4-F09-BC0-F-6941-D8-D3-A151.png) (https://ibb.co/ZSZhd5L)
“That went as well as could be expected...!”
The old Norge started off like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/pr7XtXp/D7881-CA5-0697-4170-B5-F0-F11-E8-C8-E0-D46.png) (https://ibb.co/pr7XtXp)
Then some judicious use of a mash hammer and cold chisel resulted in this...
(https://i.ibb.co/f2W4dQc/35-EC2691-8422-471-D-B2-FE-2-A6-A3-ED4-C8-F0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f2W4dQc)
(https://i.ibb.co/z5nNZv0/159327-B3-DE56-40-C6-932-D-B5-C16-D9-EFBDF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z5nNZv0)
Then this..
(https://i.ibb.co/4V2ZPhX/8-F3159-C3-036-A-46-F0-AD42-DF2-B66-DCAFCC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4V2ZPhX)
To finally end up like this..
https://youtu.be/jJyl18wMWqE
Now in case y’all are wondering..
Yes, it is a LOT quieter than it was. The chain slap noise is gone and replaced with a whirring sound that is more indicative of a long and happy life..(in Norge years that is..)
There is a little bit to know about removing the lump of casting from inside the timing chest, but nothing that a couple of posts and a quiet Q&A won’t accomplish.. :thumb:
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:bow: :bow: :bow: :thumb: :thumb:
Congrats!
Tom
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:bow: :bow: :bow: :thumb: :thumb:
Congrats!
Tom
Yeah, that one worked.. :thumb:
Unlike the V85 tone wheel saga.. :embarrassed:
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So, Huzo. How is the Norge running now?
Also "There is a little bit to know about removing the lump of casting from inside the timing chest, but nothing that a couple of posts and a quiet Q&A won’t accomplish"
Is there a post on that, or do you have some tips?
I've just gone to replace the chain and tensioner on my 03 EV and struck this annoying little knob, and am wondering do I remove it? Or do I seek an alternative solution.
It's a big commitment to start drilling and chiseling!
Bikes done 80ks and there is a lot of wear in the tensioner face and witness marks in two spots on the casing.
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As I may have outlined previously, I replaced the standard 50 mm long tensioner with a Valtek one and threw a chain at it at the same time.
That was around 170,000-180,000 k and the “stretch” in the old one was barely discernible...(they don’t actually “stretch”, they wear..)
The sprockets were like new and the camshaft float bush measured up almost perfectly.
There is some trickery involved in getting the pivot pin for the old tensioner out, which needs to be done to remove the offending lump of casting, but it’s very doable.
The old model short tensioner was looking a bit “how’s your father” @ removal time.
I had changed it once at about 100,000 and as mentioned the second one was showing real signs at 180,000.
I would say that if you’ve been good with your oil changes, 90,000 for a tensioner and if you give it a chain while you’re there, you’ve no cause for worry.
BTW...
Don’t start the job unless you have access to a rattle gun.
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Thanks for the reply. I hear you on the rattle gun, those nuts are TIGHT
I'm currently looking at options to see if I can figure out a way to fit the valtek without grinding anything away.
My tensioner is well worn and I suspect the source of high copper readings in an oil sample I recently did
(http://i.imgur.com/dEVI4Bd.jpg) (https://imgur.com/dEVI4Bd)
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So, Huzo. How is the Norge running now?
Also "There is a little bit to know about removing the lump of casting from inside the timing chest, but nothing that a couple of posts and a quiet Q&A won’t accomplish"
Is there a post on that, or do you have some tips?
Sorry mate I did not see this bit.
The blood and guts bit is getting the pin out that the tensioner pin used to pivot on. I found it impossible by normal means, so I drilled down the side and collapsed the metal around it a bit.
That’s what happened at this bit.
(https://i.ibb.co/2cWSmwT/C1540-FDE-4250-4-E35-AA92-C419-AA3-E7032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2cWSmwT)
(https://i.ibb.co/1XsHhPz/036-CCEA2-FC3-F-4-E5-C-A207-677-B98-A05150.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1XsHhPz)
After I got the pin out, I made a plug to go in the hole, but it probably didn’t need it.
The Norge is very quiet, so much so that I’m delaying putting the gears in.
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Ok. Mine doesn't have the pin, just the casting, looks like it's die grinder time!
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Ok. Mine doesn't have the pin, just the casting, looks like it's die grinder time!
What bike do you have ?
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California Hydro. 've posted pics here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=112334.new;topicseen#new
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Got my 850T in 1995 at 30k miles, replaced the chain and tensioner with the spring loaded plastic paddle version(Guzzi?). The stock tensioner had allowed the chain to get so loose it was starting to mill away bits of the aluminum case and tension shoe. Found those plugging up the oil passages in my rocker pivots. It's at about 80kmiles now, runs great, a testament to how much abuse and neglect these bikes can handle.
I got my SP1000NT in 2007 at about 14k miles, and replaced just the tensioner with the Valtek unit. causes a pretty loud whine, but is at 70k now, running fine.