Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: brider on March 04, 2020, 09:09:22 PM
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I fumbled for well over an hour trying to install the rotor-ring-thing on my new Dyna ignition, onto the dizzy shaft with the right cyl statically timed @ TDC. The combination of valve cover, backbone tubes, wires, dizzy buried down deep, and jewelry-sized hex set screws with an allen wrench that was too long and no possible way for a single hand to both HOLD the short end of the wrench, insert it into the 3mm socket, turn it more than 1-deg at a time while trying to hold the rotor in position while trying to SEE IT with both hands in the way was damn near impossible. :angry: :angry: :angry: My hat's off to you guys who have done this no problem, I was halfway to just slapping the points plate back in. Ran fine with the points.
Because of my difficulties, I am nervous that I did not cinch the set-screws down tight enough, and kinda wish I'd slathered them with Loctite before I installed the rotor. Is there a history of these rotors coming loose and totally losing the timing?
Regarding the static timing and what is said in the Tonti Haynes manual vs Guzziology:
The Dyna instructions say to set the timing on the dyna unit initially to the TDC marks on the flywheel. That's what I did.
The Haynes manual shows a graphic of the bellhousing hole with the D and S marks visible, with a line at the D,S (which my flywheel doesn't have) as TDC, then a line above that as retarded, then one above that as full advance. How can 2 lines be on the same side from the TDC mark as the engine is turning, with one retarded, and the other advanced?
On to Guzziology, which describes what my flywheel looks like, with one mark for TDC, and another very near as "static" timing. Guzziology goes on to say to time to the full-advance mark, which says to me to ignore the static mark.
So if I set the Dyna up to the TDC mark, how/where does the static mark come into play? The static mark is an advanced mark as the engine turns, so if I were to start the engine, would this static mark be theoretically lined up in the bellhousing window at idle, due to the advance weights moving at that low rpm?
This last question would apply even with my stock points plate, but that setup was such a bee-otch to adjust I never really scrutinized it. Bike ran fine.
Any hints on how to set the Dyna timing beyond what the instructions say would be appreciated.
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Borrow a timing light and set the timing at full advance (with the engine at what ever revs are necessary to move the distributor weights
to the end of their travel ( is that clear ?)) . Also it was kinda important to make sure that the pickups were an equal distance from the rotor.
Yes it takes a while , but it may be the last time you do it . Ps; even new timing light are not expensive . Peter
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then a line above that as retarded,
The Haynes manual is retarded. :grin: Just a lesson I learned from my early days with Ducati.
Ideally, you set static at the line that is just above TDC. That will get it running, and may be right. Not all flywheels were marked correctly. :grin: The full advance mark is at 33 degrees (from memory) :rolleyes: and at 4000 rpm the movement of the advance plate plus the static timing will equal that.
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I DO have a timing light that I know how to use, but this particular Cal Ii Auto is/was a PI-the-effin'-A to check timing at full advance, because the tach hasn't worked in years, the clutch hub drags so that I have to zip-tie the clutch lever, zip-tie the brake pedal, and rev it to break the clutch free, and work fast so pressures don't ease slightly and start the rear wheel spinning again. No, the parking brake is long gone.
Also, I suspect the timing chain tensioner isn't tensioning adequately, because the image of the advanced mark is NOT holding still.
So my goal is to set the STATIC timing correctly just as a baseline. Yes, I should've installed a proper timing chain tensioner, yes, I should've fixed the clutch, but neither of those are going to happen (soon). My gut always told me I should be setting initial static to the STATIC marks on the flywheel, NOT to the TDC marks as the Dyna instructions say. Static marks by my calculations are about 2-deg advanced. Thanks, Chuck!
I have enough sanity-check to proceed for now. Once I get it running I'll check the advanced settings and go from there.
Thanks again, all.
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If it's your Auto its 2 degrees advanced, at idle. Hope this confuses you a little bit more...glad to help! :shocked:
I admire your bravery at fixing the not broken working points. Just bring that points plate w you wherever you go... :evil:
Maybe remove the gas tank to get to it all?
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If it's your Auto its 2 degrees advanced, at idle. Hope this confuses you a little bit more...glad to help! :shocked:
I admire your bravery at fixing the not broken working points. Just bring that points plate w you wherever you go... :evil:
Maybe remove the gas tank to get to it all?
Yes, 2-deg advanced, as I reasoned in my previous post just by the 'ol 1-deg =(C=2*pi*R)/360, based on a ~12" ring gear dia, X the ~.20 inches the "static" mark looks above the TDC mark. Tank removal was step #1.
Although it's been 45k miles, it has always gnawed at me that the left cyl was NEVER the same timing as the right due to the original design limitations, and this last winter I filed and grinded away enough so that theoretically I should have been able to match the left timing with the right. But every attempt at moving the left points plate micro-distances to get it in synch ALWAYS overshot to the high side, then to the low side, then to the high side again, and I finally could not stand it any longer and ordered the Dyna. I am cautiously optimistic.
One other question, though: I have internalized the "Don't leave the key on or you'll fry the module" warning, to the point that I definitely will be paranoid every time I flick the ignition on to maybe check a circuit or something, without intending to start the motor. Do people typically run the power wire for the module thru a remotely-mounted toggle switch to avoid this scenario, and thereby installing an anti-theft switch as a bonus (not like ANYONE would attempt to start/steal this beast)?
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The "don't leave the key on" warning is if you're using the Dyna green coils, which will heat up and crack. Doesn't seem to effect the "module" at all.
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Thanks for that info, Kirby and Charlie, I'll have my paranoia stand down now.
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Thanks for that info, Kirby and Charlie, I'll have my paranoia stand down now.
Let me fire it back up. :grin: I have a Dyna as secondary ignition on a home built airplane. A prospective builder knocked the master switch on with his knee when he got out of the front cockpit, and I didn't catch it. It fried one coil and the module.
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^ Remember the same thing can happen to a coil with a points ignition system if the points are closed on a cylinder, and the ignition switch is left on :sad: .
How long was the ignition on before you caught it ? Peter
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^ Remember the same thing can happen to a coil with a points ignition system if the points are closed on a cylinder, and the ignition switch is left on :sad: .
How long was the ignition on before you caught it ? Peter
Dunno. I'm old..don't remember. :smiley:
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...Replaced a perfectly good set of points with this mystery box? :sad:
As someone who has 70,000 miles on the points in my T3 I've got to wonder what prompted you to add this reliability risk to the equation. (60K miles on BMW R60/2 points before I sold it & points were old when I bought it.)
Dyna is still using your mechanical advance with all its inprecision. Why not use the PowerArc (now C5 http://www.c5ignitions.com/motorcycle-ignitions.html ) module that controls timing based on RPM and has the added bonus of a rev limiter? Been running them on my Ural for 70K KM.
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...Replaced a perfectly good set of points with this mystery box? :sad:
This, from my previous post, is why I am trying the Dyna:
"Although it's been 45k miles, it has always gnawed at me that the left cyl was NEVER the same timing as the right due to the original design limitations, and this last winter I filed and grinded away enough so that theoretically I should have been able to match the left timing with the right. But every attempt at moving the left points plate micro-distances to get it in synch ALWAYS overshot to the high side, then to the low side, then to the high side again, and I finally could not stand it any longer and ordered the Dyna. I am cautiously optimistic"
Mine is an Auto, which adds challenges, for me anyway, to do the timing, with the rear wheel spinning away like a flywheel.
I'll keep the points plate with the bike, and the condensors will stay mounted. I've also decided to do just what I asked about earlier, and that's to add a toggle to flip on/off the power to the module to eliminate the risk of frying something (after I establish that it works OK).
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The kill switch cuts power to both coils, usually blk/wht wires coming from r/h switch gear.
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I've had a Dyna III on the 850T for about 10 years, no problems. The points on the Mille have about worn out and rather than do an annual timing adjustment going forward I'll replace them this spring with a Dyna III. Already measured and found that I'll need to extend the wiring to reach the aft coil location.
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I don't know what type of ignition system the the T3 has but the R60/2 has a magneto. Points in a magneto will last almost a lifetime with a minimum of maintenence. I had an R50/2, great bikes. I once had an electical failure a couple of hundred miles from home. I was able to ride home, however with no lights or any electrical power. If I remember correctly the regulator failed allowing the battery to die.
kk
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UPDATE:
I got the Dyna installed and all the wires routed and clean, grounded the unit to a valve-cover cap bolt. Maybe that's my current problem?
Double-checked all wiring connections (they're pretty simple, but with the ignition "on" and power to the module thru the coil connection, my test light at the RH cyl red-wire connection is ALWAYS ON, regardless of the position of the rotor.
Manual says this, and this is specifically at/during a system check using the RH cyl/red wire: "NOTE: If light remains bright at all times [bright is kinda subjective, maybe just "on"?], it indicates that there is a bad connection in the wiring. Ensure that there is 12 volts to the red module wire."
That's all the troubleshooting advice Dyna provides.
There certainly is POWER @ the red module wire, but I have not measured voltage.
One other observation: The above check at the RH cyl/red wire was made with it plugged in to the harness wire to the RH sensor. If I UN-PLUG this connection and only check the red wire coming from the module, I GET NO LIGHT, AT ANY POSITION OF THE ROTOR. This does not seem correct at all.
Also, I get no light at any time, at any position of the rotor, @ the LH/green wire.
This what the wiring looks like. Red wire at far left goes to coil, 3 wires from Dyna plate on dizzy plug into 3 corresponding wires from module, RH/LH cyl wires are evident, as is ground to valve cover:
(https://images.craigslist.org/00o0o_aBzMHuWivVF_600x450.jpg)
Any help or comments are appreciated.
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Located in Las Vegas, call these people and they will send you a trouble shooting guide pdf.
:-)
Attachments: image001.png Dyna III TSG.pdf
Dyna III troubleshooting guide attached for your review and files.
Please let us know what you find.
Larry Nelson
Technical Support
Dynatek
Toll Free: 1-800-928-3962
Local/International: 1-702-673-4069
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Thanks, Kirby, I'll call Monday.
Gonna be beautiful here tomorrow, was hoping to ride. :sad:
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Like Guzzi Steve says.. power to the coils is through the kill switch.
As an aside.. back in the Pleistocene, :grin: the old man, who was absolutely no mechanic.. said, "Boy. The tractor quit. Fix that." (He could make a horse go..)
So I did. It's still soldiering on with that set of points 50 some years later.
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Yeah, I know, I KNOW, the points are fool-proof. But your dad's old tractor only had (1) set of points, like any multi-cyl engine should have. My early Tonti engine has (2), and that LH set is a mutha-you-know-what to set properly, and I'm not the first to state that. Can't fault a guy for TRYING a better system. And it's not like I plugged in anything wrong, either.
If the call to the Dyna guy tomorrow isn't productive, I'm switching back to the points and will contemplate Charlie's tactic of installing a single-points Loop dizzy in this rig NEXT winter to be DONE with the dual-points.
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I get the dual point setup gapped and timed to specs as close as possible with the available adjustments.
I don't feel guilty when I slightly tweak the point gap on the second cylinder to make the timing match the first. The dwell in this situation is not super critical.
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Keep in mind that the single points distributor is much taller than the twin points unit ( think tank clearance :) ) . Peter
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I get the dual point setup gapped and timed to specs as close as possible with the available adjustments.
I don't feel guilty when I slightly tweak the point gap on the second cylinder to make the timing match the first. The dwell in this situation is not super critical.
This this this this this this this...shrink the point gap your done.
Full advance is on the center stand w the clutch lever released/untouched, just like 5 speeds....... :wink: :wink: Just be sure there is a little room under the rear tire...if it pings on a test ride back it off a touch at the dizzy. If it bogs, advance it until it pings, see above. Octane booster can be a friend but not necessary in a Convert Hotrod
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I'm pretty new to Guzzies and dual point distributors so agree there's a bit of a learning curve. But once you've got it, they're pretty cool.
My left hand points couldn't adjust far enough so were slightly retarded. I went back in there today (a week later) and discovered where I'd gone wrong. Because I hadn't gotten down low and made sure I was looking straight into the window at the timing mark, the timing had been retarded. Once the right side has timed correctly, the left side had plenty of adjustment. Boy do these things run better with that sorted. It even gets much better mileage.
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Please let us know what you find.
Larry Nelson
Technical Support
Dynatek
Toll Free: 1-800-928-3962
Called and spoke to Larry, he suggested I take one more look at it and verify connections and behavior (a valid request), and if it still behaves as I've described, call back and he'll arrange for a replacement. THAT'S customer service.
Bad taste in my mouth already about this system, but I'm not giving up yet, might just have to put the points back for a while.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
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UPDATE:
Sent the Dyna module and dizzy plate back to Larry @ Dynatek, and he sent me a complete new unit in the box. THAT'S the way to do business, and I recommend them if only for the way they stand behind their product.
In the interim, I filed the points plate a bit more, changed out a condenser with a frayed wire, and put the points back in. Was able to statically time it now fairly accurately, just waiting for new throttle cables to use with my new Tomasseli throttle.
So for now, points 1, Dyna 0, but I'll give it another try in the future.
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I've had a Dyna III on the 850T for about 10 years, no problems. The points on the Mille have about worn out and rather than do an annual timing adjustment going forward I'll replace them this spring with a Dyna III. Already measured and found that I'll need to extend the wiring to reach the aft coil location.
Hi Testarossa - I'm installing a Dyna III on my 76 T3 restomod. Before I post a new thread, I'd like to ask which plug caps and spark plugs you're using? Specifically I'm looking for info on resistance values and whether I should/should not seek components with resistance. I have new 3 Ohm Pertronix coils as suggeste by Guzziology. Planning to leave the condensors off too. Thanks in advance! - Alex