Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kiwi_Roy on March 27, 2020, 05:33:18 PM
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Someone posted a link to this U tube video on Griso Ghetto done by Martin aka Grisocaferacer across the pond.
He has a Griso and was having starter trouble, its quite a long video but I learnt some new information by watching it all the way through.
This same information will apply to any of the CARC bikes.
https://youtu.be/dOIo3XpaOds
Sure the video could have been a bit shorter but he's an electrical Engineer used to not cutting corners, the video is excellent IMHO it shows a lot of information that most would just skip over.
I was quite surprised to see how strongly the solenoid seemed to pull in without spinning over. Before this I thought all you would hear is the click of the start relay.
From the way the headlight dimmed it was obvious a lot of current was going somewhere pulling the voltage down, from the reduced brightness I suspect the Voltage remaining at the headlight and the solenoid is only about 6 Volts.
On this particular bike the headlight is in effect powered from the same weak yellow wire that feeds the start relay, this worked in our favour indicating there is a Voltage loss at the start relay.
When the solenoid pulls in and the main contact doesn't close both solenoid coils remain in circuit drawing 20-25 Amps, this is what sometimes blows the 15 Amp fuse.
With the weak relay supply the solenoid is closing very slowly, I suggest the main contact is not quite closing, that's why there is no rotation of the motor.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Griso_8V.gif
Eventually Martin provided a direct feed to the start relay as we have been suggesting but he also changed the wire from relay to solenoid.
Now with his new direct feed to the start relay and decent size wire the solenoid inrush current will be about 50 Amps providing 100% strength throwing the gear into place slamming the main contact closed then it drops back to 10 Amps while the motor cranks. A 20 Amp fuse is more appropriate for these new operating conditions.
The Motor itself will be drawing 150 - 200 Amps while cranking, there is no change there.
Testing the motor on the bench at minute 24 notice how positive the solenoid works when he trigged it with needle nose pliers, see the big spark when he makes contact with the trigger terminal (40 odd Amps). The low speed of the motor is because of Voltage drop in the long jumper leads and perhaps a weak original battery.
The video (minute 46) shows the wimpy relay to solenoid wire on the 8 Valve just as it is on the 1100 4 Valve. That little bitty wire would like to carry 40 Amps, what hope of that? This wire needs to be upgraded to a 16 gauge or equivalent.
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Thanks for the video Martin, its given me additional information I will be able to pass on to other Guzzi owners.
BTW
I don't believe the headlight comes on with the normal CARC wiring until the motor is running but you will get the same Voltage information by looking at the numberplate light, of course this is a bit awkward without a second pair of hands.
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Tks for getting that info out Roy :thumb:
Kelly
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I modded my Stelvio Starter Circuit recently.
Added a 40Amp Relay under the Starter Motor, took a feed from the Positive Battery Terminal on the Solenoid, through the Relay, to the 'trigger' Terminal of the Solenoid.
Nice chunky Wires, all connections soldered, including soldering to the Relay and Solenoid Terminals.
(https://i.ibb.co/LPrx52y/Starter-Mod1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPrx52y)
(https://i.ibb.co/jGNN8kK/Startus-Interuptus.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jGNN8kK)
Bit disappointed the Solenoid itself isn't strippable, I'd like to have cleaned up the Contacts.
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Bit disappointed the Solenoid itself isn't strippable, I'd like to have cleaned up the Contacts.
Fortunately its not the contacts that cause the problem, its the weak electrical feed to the relay and solenoid (20-25 Amps)
Adding a relay as you have done is one method of making the supply strong (40-50 Amps) :thumb:
The usual method is to provide the OEM relay with the same strong feed. (40-50 Amps) with a 20 Amp in line fuse.
The "Original feed wire to Starter Solenoid" is also too small, it needs to be doubled in cross section to get maximum benefit.
The strength of an electromagnet is the product of the current through the coil and the number of turns (about 300)
So your solenoid went from 25 x 300 or 7,500 Amp turns to 50 x 300 or 15,000 Amp turns, if you listen to Martins starter at the start of the video you will notice a significant difference in the clunk it makes at the end after he re-wired it.
The solenoid moves 3 x as fast with the 50 Amp feed, this is the way the starter manufacturer intended it to be.
Although this thread is focused on CARC bikes 90% of the other models also suffer from bad wiring around the starter.
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Did this on both my Breva 1100 and Griso 1200 - well worth the effort
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Did this on both my Breva 1100 and Griso 1200 - well worth the effort
Yes the Breva 1100 also had the weak feed to the start relay (3) is fed from fuse B through the ignition switch
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
For some reason the Griso 1100 had a much better arrangement
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2006_Griso_1100.gif
The start relay (3) is fed from fuse C which is always On however the wire from relay to solenoid is still far too small, the solenoid on mine is 3 x faster with an 18 Gauge wire.
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The "Original feed wire to Starter Solenoid" is also too small, it needs to be doubled in cross section to get maximum benefit.
When I investigated this over 10 years ago, it was a Norge. Yes, that wire is part of the problem. I was seeing a lot of lose in it. The solenoid was getting a little less then 7 volts. That was with the contacts not closing, so the battery voltage was still near 12V. When I bypassed the wire to the ignition switch, I got a reliable voltage to the solenoid, even with the whimpy wire. I thought about updating that wire also, but didn't. It was never an issue after that.
I measured the resistance of everything at the time, but I don't think I kept any of those records.
I also found that the solenoid plunger is pretty tight in the coil. You can improve it by cleaning up the coil so it is a bit more free. Not that it is a good fix, but I suspect we would not know about the whimpy wiring if the starter was a bit better.
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Is it all REALLY that complex ?
I just tore the yellow wire out of the junction, ran a fused wire to the connector and have never had a problem since.
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Is it all REALLY that complex ?
I just tore the yellow wire out of the junction, ran a fused wire to the connector and have never had a problem since.
No, its really not complex at all unless you work in a motorcycle factory in Italy, they don't seem to be able to get it right.
Its like a puzzle, this is just another piece, I had no idea the solenoid could clunk in and still not close the main contacts, this video clearly shows that happening.
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I did see the other day someone mentioned that they had a stuck starter button.
Luckily, when they turned the ignition off, the starter stopped cranking.
I assume that is a lot to do with the reason that the starter solenoid wiring goes through so much of the wiring harness. To let the ignition switch disable the starter as a safety thing.
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You might be right the starter needs to be interlocked with the ignition switch for safety reasons, the start relay drops out and it won't pull in if the key is off, it is interlocked.
I still maintain they don't understand how the solenoid works because they never show the second coil, If they knew how much current the solenoid pulls why would they fuse it at 15 Amps. On the later CARC bikes they added the Startup Maintenance Relay, I don't believe thats necessary if you have a strong feed to the start relay.
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In the various posts dealing with electrical problems, there is no precise information being offered. Rather than disparaging MG factory workers or the company engineers ( more than likely the bean counters are at fault) for inadequate wiring or weird routing, the poster should state what was done, why, size of fuse, and most important, size of wire. One poster mentions " replacing the yellow wire with a fused wire, another poster added a 40 amp relay with some "nice chunky wires". What the devil does all that mean? There are many members here that are clueless about technical matters, but they would like to learn "how to do it right" PS Thanks Cliffrod for baking dissertations.
This is a similar post to 50 others that we've seen for a long long time. Kiwi Roy directs you to the Greggs link at this old tractor that will get you started and I'm sure on his site he is thorough with photos if you look around
Info is all here you still need to dig a tiny bit
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In the various posts dealing with electrical problems, there is no precise information being offered. Rather than disparaging MG factory workers or the company engineers ( more than likely the bean counters are at fault) for inadequate wiring or weird routing, the poster should state what was done, why, size of fuse, and most important, size of wire. One poster mentions " replacing the yellow wire with a fused wire, another poster added a 40 amp relay with some "nice chunky wires". What the devil does all that mean? There are many members here that are clueless about technical matters, but they would like to learn "how to do it right" PS Thanks Cliffrod for baking dissertations.
I have spent hundreds of hours talking owners through the Startus Interuptus problem, I believe I have a fairly good handle on it.
The factory don't seem to be able to get it right, what can I say?
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He presented his wiring diagram at the beginning, but not at the end. I think he should have, with his mods.
I like the way he diagrammed it.
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The factory have been getting it wrong for at least 40 years now, so don't expect any miracle just yet.
The idea of adding a heavier wire from the start relay to the solenoid was suggested on a French Guzzi forum 10 years ago, at the time they said it was a factory TSB. And don't forget those spade connectors lose their spring, especially when they get hot. Worth checking that on the solenoid connector.
Bit confused by details in the first post though, I thought on all the CARC models, the headlight didn't come on until the engine was running.
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Bit confused by details in the first post though, I thought on all the CARC models, the headlight didn't come on until the engine was running.
Thats normally the case but fortunately this particular bike has the LED re-wired from the same feed as the start relay (the owner told me that) that's why it goes dim while the start relay is On, watch the first minute of the video.
The Voltage drops on starting due to the weak supply at the yellow wire this video shows just how weak it is. A typical LED is still 100% at 9 Volts my guess is this ones operating on 6V or less.
On a normally wired CARC bike you will see the same effect on the numberplate light or city light, those share the same weak yellow wire.
If the solenoid only pulled 10 Amps it wouldn't drop much but the second coil has a resistance of only 0.25 Ohms thats 48 Amps at 12 Volts but only 24 with the weak feed because of Voltage drop.
As for the spade connectors someone on a different forum suggested using the crimp connectors used on electric range elements, they are made to take the heat. Really there shouldn't be any heat if you have a good contact I always dip the wire and lug in Vaseline to keep corrosion at bay.
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So if I understand this whole issue correctly, it’s simply the activating wire for the solenoid not getting enough jolt to make everything work as it should. I totally get the permanent fixes and will do this soon. BUT, if this happens before I do the fix, can’t I just use a short length of proper gauge wire to make a quick direct connect from the battery to the small solenoid terminal to start the bike? The wire could already have a spade fitting on one end to attach to the solenoid and the other end just touch on battery + till the bike starts. Kinda like he did on the bench in the video. I could even put an inline fuse on the wire, maybe even ad a simple switch. Again, this could be a wire you have in panniers just in case.
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So if I understand this whole issue correctly, it’s simply the activating wire for the solenoid not getting enough jolt to make everything work as it should. I totally get the permanent fixes and will do this soon. BUT, if this happens before I do the fix, can’t I just use a short length of proper gauge wire to make a quick direct connect from the battery to the small solenoid terminal to start the bike? The wire could already have a spade fitting on one end to attach to the solenoid and the other end just touch on battery + till the bike starts. Kinda like he did on the bench in the video. I could even put an inline fuse on the wire, maybe even ad a simple switch. Again, this could be a wire you have in panniers just in case.
Yes, it is the complex long path the wiring makes, passing through fuses, wires, connectors, ignition switch, mores wires and fuses, relay contacts, then down to the starter. All through whimpy wires that need to handle well over 25 amps.
Since the battery power goes to the solenoid, a simple jump from the solenoid power post, to the terminal, is all that is needed. A screwdriver will work, if your bike doesn't have a cover over the solenoid.
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Fortunately its not the contacts that cause the problem, its the weak electrical feed to the relay and solenoid (20-25 Amps)
If the internal Contacts are burnt/eroded/dirty, the Motor won't be getting enough current.
The "Original feed wire to Starter Solenoid" is also too small, it needs to be doubled in cross section to get maximum benefit.
That wire, on mine, now only 'activates' the new Relay, so it doesn't need to carry so much current.
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Yes, it is the complex long path the wiring makes, passing through fuses, wires, connectors, ignition switch, mores wires and fuses, relay contacts, then down to the starter. All through whimpy wires that need to handle well over 25 amps.
Since the battery power goes to the solenoid, a simple jump from the solenoid power post, to the terminal, is all that is needed. A screwdriver will work, if your bike doesn't have a cover over the solenoid.
Cool, that’s if you’re in more of a pinch. Ha ha. So, bigger picture is that this issue shouldn’t ever leave anyone stranded by any means.
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Cool, that’s if you’re in more of a pinch. Ha ha. So, bigger picture is that this issue shouldn’t ever leave anyone stranded by any means.
There is also the lost art of 'bump starting'.
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Dimming of the LED headlight, this will depend on the power driver fitted. If you fit a 12v LEDin a 12v circuit, it will be full brightness, but just drop that 1 volt and the LED brightness will drop noticably. I know because I fitted a home made LED rear light. It failed our MOT because the brightness was dropping when the indicator was on. I checked and it was 1 volt drop. You can't assume any specific drop without using a voltmeter.
Doc, your mod is exactly the same as the mod most of us do in supplying power direct from the battery to the start relay. All you have done is reduce the path length more and probably increased the wire gauge.
By the way you can strip the solenoid and check the internal contacts.
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Dimming of the LED headlight, this will depend on the power driver fitted. If you fit a 12v LEDin a 12v circuit, it will be full brightness, but just drop that 1 volt and the LED brightness will drop noticably. I know because I fitted a home made LED rear light. It failed our MOT because the brightness was dropping when the indicator was on. I checked and it was 1 volt drop. You can't assume any specific drop without using a voltmeter.
LED headlights use various electronics to get a constant current through them. Most of them work and have the same brightness from close to 9 volts, to over 24 volts.
On the other hand, a simple LED array, with a few series LEDs and a dropping resistor, will be very sensitive to voltage.
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There is also the lost art of 'bump starting'.
A few years ago when I was just a young lad, :rolleyes: we stopped at a state park in Maine after getting in some kind of tourist traffic jam. Later, the Lario's battery wouldn't do the job, and I bump started it. Much huffing and puffing. I saw that guy in a black robe carrying his scythe coming my way just as it fired, and I jumped on. Told myself to avoid that in the future.. :smiley:
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So if I understand this whole issue correctly, it’s simply the activating wire for the solenoid not getting enough jolt to make everything work as it should. I totally get the permanent fixes and will do this soon. BUT, if this happens before I do the fix, can’t I just use a short length of proper gauge wire to make a quick direct connect from the battery to the small solenoid terminal to start the bike? The wire could already have a spade fitting on one end to attach to the solenoid and the other end just touch on battery + till the bike starts. Kinda like he did on the bench in the video. I could even put an inline fuse on the wire, maybe even ad a simple switch. Again, this could be a wire you have in panniers just in case.
EXACTLY but don't add a fuse or switch, they aren't necessary
When I re-wired my Griso I left the wire between relay and solenoid long enough to loop past the battery post so I can jump start the bike. When I dropped the bike on the road waiting for a ferry, when I picked it up the starter wouldn't work, I assumed it was the tip-over switch, sure enough touching the battery caused it to crank over and start, I still don't know where to look for the tip-over switch.
You could also touch the wire to the positive post on the starter.
As Wayne says learn the lost art of bump starting, this is especially important if you get a flat battery, a regular occurrence for me using the heated gear Last time it happened I paid a homeless guy $5 to give me a push, I have never had to trailer a bike, touch wood.
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I tried bump starting the LM1000 when the Valeo dropped a magnet. No way would it do anything but skid in second or third gear! Serious compression.
Maybe I should have dropped some air pressure?
What's the trick?
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Put it in 2nd then pull it backwards against compression.
key On, pull in the clutch, run forward as fast as you can, leap onto the seat side saddle.
Just as you land on the seat drop the clutch, it should be spinning over.
Its always easier if you have someone else to push or a small rise in the road.
I have even used a boat ramp, that's exciting as you see the water coming up fast.
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I tried bump starting the LM1000 when the Valeo dropped a magnet. No way would it do anything but skid in second or third gear! Serious compression.
Maybe I should have dropped some air pressure?
What's the trick?
I have an old kick start only Honda XL600. I learned long ago to always park on a hill. Coast down hill, drop the clutch in second of third, leave a skid mark on the pavement. Because you can only use one compression release doing that. The kick start lever operates the second compression release. So it is still a problem to bump start. So, what I learned to do was, second or third gear, stand on the pegs, and bounce my butt on the seat as I release the clutch.
When my EV dropped a Valeo magnet, that same thing worked just fine. Though I was camping that weekend and it was an issue in the wet grass at the campground in the morning.
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I used to carry a mini jump-start kit in my saddlebag. I found when the battery voltage dropped just a little below 12v the starter wouldn't file. Applying the cables let it fire ever time.
https://www.amazon.com/BEATIT-B10PRO-Portable-Lithium-Intelligent/dp/B07MNKH8PK/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?keywords=mini+jump+starter&qid=1585577338&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExRzA4MU1PVzZGRjNFJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODUyODczMko2MTdVMURGOUZDRiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTAzNjA0MTJKNVRUMVFBRjkzTCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU= (https://www.amazon.com/BEATIT-B10PRO-Portable-Lithium-Intelligent/dp/B07MNKH8PK/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?keywords=mini+jump+starter&qid=1585577338&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExRzA4MU1PVzZGRjNFJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODUyODczMko2MTdVMURGOUZDRiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTAzNjA0MTJKNVRUMVFBRjkzTCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=)
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When I re-wired my Griso I left the wire between relay and solenoid long enough to loop past the battery post so I can jump start the bike.
Hey Roy, I'm digesting the significance of this;
If I understand you correctly when I wire in a starter relay or improve the existing routing with heavier wires; If I leave extra length on the heavy wire from the relay to solenoid, I can remove the connection at the relay and touch that wire to the positive battery terminal and it will engage the starter to get the bike going, vintage, new, carbs, ECU EFI, Tonti, Spine, CARC,etc it doesn't make any difference?
Once I got the bike started, what would be the proper thing to do, carefully reconnect the wire back onto the relay, ride on as normal keeping the revs up, monitoring voltage usage and hope that the bike gets me home?
If so, that's a mod I'll start to make.
Tks
Kelly
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Kelly,
The wire on mine just runs past the battery, I don't know why I did it that way but faced with a bike that wouldn't crank over I realized I could remove a section of insulation and touch it on the battery (dont need to disconnect anything) then later I just slipped a piece of tubing over the bare patch. I don't think there is much to gain by wiring in a heavy duty button, I only used it one time (I haven't dropped it again lol)
Note, it completely bypasses all safety interlocks so it shouldn't be easy to do. I always remember seeing a car jump the curb and crash into a shop window, little child at the wheel had pushed the starter.
Yes ride on like nothing happened, nothing to re-connect.
Roy
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Put it in 2nd then pull it backwards against compression.
key On, pull in the clutch, run forward as fast as you can, leap onto the seat side saddle.
I tried that once with a bunch of stuff strapped to the seat. The bike wobbled badly and nearly crashed, without starting up. Don't plan on doing that again!
Good point setting the engine back to the last compression stroke! Hopefully the right side.
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Kelly,
The wire on mine just runs past the battery, I don't know why I did it that way but faced with a bike that wouldn't crank over I realized I could remove a section of insulation and touch it on the battery (dont need to disconnect anything) then later I just slipped a piece of tubing over the bare patch.
Yes ride on like nothing happened, nothing to re-connect.
Roy
I'd be worried about creating a potential short and and causing myself problems, tbh some of my relays are hard to get to, buried in tougher spots than I'd like.
I've read about using a straight jumper line from battery positive to the solenoid, and I've done it on the older Tonti bikes up on the work table, but I wasn't aware that you could that on these new ECU EFI bikes without causing a whole lot of grief.
I've got some nice heavy 8 gauge wire, I think I'll make up a little jumper cable to pack into my tool bag that I take with me, just in case something funky happens when I'm out.
Btw, I wasn't aware there is a tip over sensor in the Griso, that's nice to know in the event I drop it; hasn't happened yet, knock on wood, I've come close turning it around in some loose gravel.
Tks
Kelly
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By the way, when I pulled the solenoid apart I found the plunger covered in sticky grease, enough to slow the plunger down. Must have been there since factory assembly.
Cleaned it off, checked the pivot was free and that the pinion slid freely on the shaft, and it worked much better after.
I had already done the wiring mod to the start relay but the non start situation reappeared later.
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Don't suppose you have any photos from your Solenoid dismantling do you Brian?
Unless I missed something simple, mine isn't strippable, at least not without sticking it in my Lathe, and machining off the swaged-over end of the Body.
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Don't suppose you have any photos from your Solenoid dismantling do you Brian?
Unless I missed something simple, mine isn't strippable, at least not without sticking it in my Lathe, and machining off the swaged-over end of the Body.
You can pull the plunger out of the front end and clean it off. I used a bit of sandpaper down in one coil to remove a high spot that rubbed the solenoid. It also had clutch dust and such goo that I cleaned out. You can't get to the contacts though.
That was my fix many years ago before there was this 'startus interuptus' thing.
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Yes, I cleaned the Plunger on mine, it was pretty clean already though.
I'd really like to check the Contacts, I'd expect them to be less-than-perfect on an 11 yr-old Bike.
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What I found really surprising in the video was the loud clunk of the solenoid coming in with no subsequent rotation, I always thought you would just get the click of the relay.
I think the Voltage must have been just enough to throw it in then it bounced back. As Wayne says a typical LED is at full brightness with even 9 Volts applied As I pointed out earlier this bike was unusual in that the headlight comes on at all while starting, its been wired into the city light bypassing the light relay.
LED headlights use various electronics to get a constant current through them. Most of them work and have the same brightness from close to 9 volts, to over 24 volts.
On the other hand, a simple LED array, with a few series LEDs and a dropping resistor, will be very sensitive to voltage.
If you watch the first minute of the video you will see the headlight going dim, so what's there, perhaps 6 Volts?
The fix was to supply battery voltage to the start relay bypassing the spaghetti wiring.
Sure you could probably scratch around and find out where all the Voltage is going but why not wire the starter as the starter manufacturer intended.
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I found myself very thankful for this forum this weekend. I ran into the infamous Startus Interruptus!!! When my 2016 Norge wouldn’t crank, I started with checking the battery and started, both of which seemed to be fine. From there, I realized that I could hear one of the relays under the seat clicking. I thought to myself that perhaps it was a relay problem. So, I swapped the relays on my Norge for the ones on my Griso. When that did not fix the problem, I came to the forum and started searching. Within minutes, I came across a number of posts that would accurately describe what I was dealing with and how to fix it. So, a cut wire here and a fused wire there and I was back up and running. Without the helpful information posted in this site, I would have definitely had to take it to the shop, which is something that I try to avoid if at all possible. Thanks to all of you who share your knowledge on this site. It was certainly a huge help today. Happy riding, and perhaps I will be able to return the favor in the future.
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Thwew is no reason to ever remove the wire from the relay or solenoid.
I'm just saying if the wire has a bare patch near the battery positive terminal you also have the option of touching it to the battery and it will crank over.
I used this when checking the compression ratio, without the key turned on no spark or fuel was added, just air from the wide open throttle.
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Yep, did this to my Stelvio years ago. I simply unplugged the wire off the starter and used that to trigger the new relay that I used to cut through direct power to the starter. Like someone said, covered many times.
Looking at the wiring diagram on the V7III, I'll probably do the same thing to that one of these days as a preventive measure.
John Henry