Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: amamet on April 01, 2020, 07:51:10 PM
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while prepping to pull the motor from the 73 eldorado to get out both broken alternator bolts, I stepped back and realized the frame is bent. Enough that its noticable. if it weren't for the 4ls front, good price and good tins, albeit a paint job not to my liking, I be really pissed. Anywho, anyone in the NY area have a good STRAIGHT frame? I haven't worked for the last 2 weeks and have no idea when im going back, months maybe. I can pay more once I go back if someone were to offer me a good (wink, wink) deal. shipping is expensive so closer is better. im going to check around with some of the local guzzi people here too
thx for listening
Allen
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Bolts with an alternator kit don't usually snap. They typically have 3 points of contact- 2 to the block, 1 to distributor. It's common on the heavy generator. Fix is to use studs into the block and nut them down.
Are you positive the frame is bent?
Did you check the cylinders lining?
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-cylinder lining are supposed iron lined, haven't checked yet
-this alt bracket doesn't attach to distributor
-frame is definitely bent. ill post a picture when I can
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rear hoop to center of steering stem. black lines are approx center of main tube
(https://i.ibb.co/y0NvmkN/C03-B4573-D495-4527-8-EA2-FFB533-BBDE0-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y0NvmkN)
(https://i.ibb.co/gddVc7k/D97-FDA84-73-C7-4-F05-95-D6-A47-B44806293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gddVc7k)
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Are the wheels parallel? That would be helpful to know. How far off,?
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Good point John, I was too pissed to actually think about that. I’ll check in the AM with my laser. Maybe it’s just the main tube and subframe. Either way I’d rather not have it bent at all :)
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Could the front forks just be cock-eyed? Loosen pinch bolts and straighten bars. Straddle front wheel and twist bars. Bounce on the front suspension and tighten up. My first Eldo was outta wack like that.
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The laser is centered on the steering tube and middle of rear hoop. It appears to have a kink in the main tube @4 inches from the cross piece at the rear. Rear end seems to kick to the right
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I just remembered I thought There was a problem with the seat because the was a space on the left side where the seat met the tank but was tight on the right side. I figured the seat was just made a little “off”
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I have a good loop frame in the attic of my shop.. free if you can get shipping from Mpls. Possibly greyhound?
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It looks to me like the tab on the back of the seat loop is welded off center.
I would pull the rear fender and check for the center between the back tubes and also the center of the rear wheel.
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I’ll go back out tomorrow and pull the fender.
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If the frame is bent there is a good chance the steering stem is bent, also unless it's been replaced.
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Doesn't seem like much "bentness" to me. I would ignore it and focus on more important stuff.
"More important" to be defined however you see fit.
Probably "bent" from new. Could be a factory Moto Guzzi special and worth a lot more than the lower grade framed bikes that are "straight."
You could always rationalize that Giacomo Agostini tested the bike while at the factory and crashed it while setting a new test track record. Which is why yours handles better than all the other similar Guzzi's.
Much better tale to tell than "My bike has a bent frame." :wink:
Guzzistis love tall tales.
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deleted duplicate
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Fotoguzzi has your answer..
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Before you get BENT out of shape, I'd be confirming the status of the cylinders. If they're still chrome, you have a bigger more expensive problem.
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Before you get BENT out of shape, I'd be confirming the status of the cylinders. If they're still chrome, you have a bigger more expensive problem.
From previous posts, it has iron liners.
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while prepping to pull the motor from the 73 eldorado to get out both broken alternator bolts, I stepped back and realized the frame is bent. Enough that its noticable. if it weren't for the 4ls front, good price and good tins, albeit a paint job not to my liking, I be really pissed. Anywho, anyone in the NY area have a good STRAIGHT frame? I haven't worked for the last 2 weeks and have no idea when im going back, months maybe. I can pay more once I go back if someone were to offer me a good (wink, wink) deal. shipping is expensive so closer is better. im going to check around with some of the local guzzi people here too
thx for listening
Allen
I remember the old manufacturing saying: "Calculate it out to 6 decimal places, measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk, then cut it with an axe!"
Keep in mind you are using modern technology that did not exist when that bike was made to look for a problem. Would not surprise me a bit if 70% of the machines made in the 1970's would not pass this modern tech inspection. Even those that have never been ridden.
Remember, this is the manufacturer who thinks putting grease in bearings is optional. You weren't looking for perfection when you bought an old Guzzi..... were you?
Enjoy the inherent character of a 47 year old bike!!!! Their flaws are most of their appeal!!!
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Is having the frame straighten out of the question? Seems like it's not too terrible, and in reality another getting a used frame without knowing the history may also have some issues. Some places just need a rolling chassis with engine mounted for Tonti frames (not sure about loops) to hold stability and can be fixed. But then again, if the loop frames don't have VIN stamped on the frames I'd probably also look for a replacement like you are and take my chances.
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If you can anchor the frame to a good sturdy floor or a solid post you can do a lot of massaging the frame with a 2x4.
Honestly the Loop feel like you riding a rubber band with so much frame flex it may not even be noticeable. Well unless you ride a Loop then hop on a Tonti you'll not have ever realized how much frame flex there is.
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Honestly the Loop feel like you riding a rubber band with so much frame flex it may not even be noticeable. Well unless you ride a Loop then hop on a Tonti you'll not have ever realized how much frame flex there is.
I ride both regularly and do not agree.
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From looking at the photo I wouldn't count on that rear tab for taking a measurement. I would locate several center points along the length of the frame and see how they line up.
My Tonti is apart right now so you have me curious. Think I'll check it. Maybe others could do the same and we could get a little survey going. Something to do while we sit home waiting for the world to get back to normal.
Stay healthy all!
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OK, just checked my 1979 SP frame. (It's naked.) And it is dead nuts straight from every direction.
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For fun I just quickly checked eBay. There is a '73 Eldorado frame that has a bent down tube and lower tube. It's listed as buy-it-now for $229.99 w/free shipping and returns accepted. It's been on eBay for at least 4-years.
Also an auction listing for a '71 Ambassador frame with a bare engine (waffle) cases and Kentucky title. Opening bid of $367.10 (shipping not included) with no bidders at this time, 2-days left, returns accepted.
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I ride both regularly and do not agree.
I agree with you. The first Loop I rode was my Eldorado after I gave it an extensive mechanical restoration.
My strong impression was that it felt like it was hewn from a billet of high tensile steel. I have never felt that solid feeling to such an extent on any other bike.
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I have a good loop frame in the attic of my shop.. free if you can get shipping from Mpls. Possibly greyhound?
Hard to beat this offer!!!! I would jump on it!
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I ride both regularly and do not agree.
Then we can agree to disagree. Fortunately we do not all find the same things with each bike. If we did the world would be an awfully boring place and we’d all ride the same thing.
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I think you should do more checks before condemning the frame.
Look for impact marks, it didn't warp in the sun all by itself, to bend the entire spine it would take some serious input.
I went and ran a straight timber (quickly) on my frame as per your pic, rear tab to tube centre/center at the steering head.... it was not on centre.
At a minimum run up the sides of the rear loop with a straight edge and measure to the spline both sides front and rear and centre.
Check the spine for a bend.
I will do a closer check on my frame later in the day.
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Fluorescent bulbs are useful for checking true. Sidecar guys commonly use them for alignment.
Rich A
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I string lined my frame minutes ago (and yes I could have used laser)
Right hand side of the rear loop tab (not centre) to the tube centre/center behind the steering head was on centre the length of the top tube.
On centre to the rear tab was off centre to the spine.
Down the sides of the rear loop went within microns at the front crash bars both sides.
From the centre of the spine at the front to the two tabs side of the loop there was a 10 mm + difference to the ends of the gussets spine to cross tube as the string passed them.
Unless you find impact I suggest there be nothing wrong with your frame.
My bike stood fine by it self on its rims on that flat table.
The wheels were checked to be in line and the bars/triple clamp measured to the back were within cooee.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods/MG.jpg)
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With a tape measure hooked on the steering stem bolt, I got @39 3/4” to the center of the right shock bolt and @40 1/8” to the left shock mount. That’s pretty significant over that distance.
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Laser the side of the rims and see if the steering is cocked to one side when inline.
One good thing about a shaft drive bike is rear wheel lineament is out of your hands so it will be go, no go at the front.
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If it were minor I’d let it be. It’s not minor. I don’t even need to squint to see it
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Fluorescent bulbs are useful for checking true. Sidecar guys commonly use them for alignment.
Rich A
Do you mean using them as a straight edge?
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Don't even need the laser. Looks bent as hell. Any cracks or welds on the right side?
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Do you mean using them as a straight edge?
Yes.
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Haven’t spotted any crack or welds. The spine is bent to the right, right at the gusset. I believe it’s only the top loop bent to the right. Everything looks parallel and perpendicular underneath
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It’s probly just fine and within factory tolerance but you’ll never be happy with it. Get a different frame, weather it’s Brads generous offer or one off fleabay, then it won’t bug you as you put time and money into it. As you roll down the road, you’ll be smiling
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It’s probly just fine and within factory tolerance but you’ll never be happy with it. Get a different frame, weather it’s Brads generous offer or one off fleabay, then it won’t bug you as you put time and money into it. As you roll down the road, you’ll be smiling
Excellent advice. We bought these things to make them better, didn't we?
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Take the frame to a professional shop.
Let them determine if it is bent, or not.
Probably cost ya $25.
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Seriously? Let a shop tell me if it’s bent or not? Do you know something I don’t? Have I gone blind and haven’t realized it? I was venting cause the frame is bent. It was unexpected. All good. Trying to get a replacement from some great people here that are extremely helpful. Reminds me of the time I was doing fx on commercial last year and the haze machine was burning everyone’s eyes including the director. The fx house that rented me the machine and was in a different borough said maybe it was psychosomatic and it was probably fine. I could have beaten him over the head with that machine.
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Having a real shop check is a good idea.
One of my friends runs a body shop that has a state of the art auto frame machine. It has attachments that allow it to measure motorcycle frames. He tells me that many frames are out of alignment as they come from the factory. Racers commonly bring him new bikes to have them checked and realigned.
He says that it’s usually no big deal to bend the frame back into alignment.
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Having a real shop straighten it is a good idea, except nows not the time unfortunately and there aren’t any good shops like that near me. It’s bent and I’ll have to deal with it till a replacement works out. Going to step back from that bike and concentrate on finishing the lemans
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(https://i.ibb.co/8bfrfdw/Goose-Cruiser001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8bfrfdw)
Possibly this can put your mind at ease , some experiences in frame construction and just how bad is bad ?
There were no jigs , just some sliding wood clamps and "U" bolts and a magnetic angle meter . The wheels
were within 2 degrees of each other (in the vertical plane), the wheel alignment was almost a full inch off. Rear
wheel to the right of the front wheel when sitting on bike. The tabs I'd made for the swingarm pivot bolts
were accidentally welded on the wrong rear down tube by me ( not enough sleep) and this caused the rear wheel
to be not parallel with the front ( not just off to the right ) . A piece of aluminum angle was held against the
right hand side of the rear wheel and it actually extended to the left hand side of the front wheel :sad:. OMG ,what
now ? I rode that motorcycle all over B.C with my wife for 4 years . What I couldn't do was release both hands from
the bars at once . I made offset pivot pins to improve the wheel alignment so they were almost parallel , it improved
the handling somewhat , but not a night and day thing . This project made an absolute mockery of my understandings
concerning the disastrous handling any frame misalignment would cause .
I know this has set the bar awfully low , but it was fun to ride and never felt particularly bad or unsafe .
My extended way of saying "don't sweat the small stuff" Peter
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DXhall, where if your friend's shop located?
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My friend’s shop is in a suburb of Denver.
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I would tackle it myself. Careful measurement, a come along, something solid to attach it to, truck, trees etc. You are looking at replacing it, what have you got to lose.
I crewed years ago for a friend with a dirt track car, a Chevelle. On our next to last race of the season he got hit pretty hard in the rear. The frame was buckled with one side shorter than the other. We didn't want to spend much time on it as it was going to be retired and we didn't have much time before the next race anyway. We laid the car on its side, cut the amount out of the longer frame rail to make them equal and welded it all back up. He said it handled better than ever.
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How did it ride? If it's not dangerous, then I'd ride her as is until extra funds become available.
If your going to replace the frame, then you may as well powder coat it, clean the motor, replace all the bearings, Check/replace the wiring harness etc.
Nothing looks worse that a freshly powder coated frame, with old tins.
Take your time with the frame hunt, unless the bike is dangerous or you just dont trust it.
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Here is my opinion that you did not ask for. Everyone else is having a go so I may as well join in.
The frame sounds like it is definitely bent so I am not questioning that. The thing is just about any frame from that era will be bent to some degree. I have had a frame straightened and talked to a few people who do it, and that was their professional opinion. The other thing is you can spend a lot of money to get a frame perfectly straight and it will flex in use. All frames do and that is why there are tolerances on frames. You only need to get it in tolerance.
The thing is the replacement frame you find will probably be straighter then yours, but will it be in tolerance. If you get your frame straightened professionally you can be confident that your frame is straight.
It is my understanding that there are only a few critical points on a frame. The way I have seen them done is to mount the frame in a jig through the steering head. The swing arm pivot then is checked that it is parallel to the ground and 90 degrees to the plane of the steering head. The upper shock mounts are not as critical as you may think. If one is slightly forward then the other the shock angle changes by a small amount changing the effective spring rate. Your spring will vary by a little bit so no real change.
I know money is tight but for me the frame is the foundation of the bike. If you can be confident you are starting with a very good foundation the rest of the bike can be built from there.
Steve
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FWIW: My Eldo is the bike I have ridden most of my life. I think that it has had this issue since I bought it 40 years ago. On a straight flat road, if you let go of the bars, it WILL turn right instantly. Never thought that was odd until I got my Ambo running well. Let go of the bars and it goes straight.
When I tore it down for a complete go over, I measured, I used a level, I etc.......... I could not find why it does this. The tires wear evenly, it handles MY riding style just fine (not racing) and I will continue to ride it as is.
I will say this, if your picture is showing it correctly, the seat loop does look off to the right just a tad, about where the main center tube connects to the cross bar. If the rest is straight I wouldn't worry too much about it. If it really bothers you, take it to a frame shop or try to straighten it yourself.
Good luck,
Tom
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I'm noticing that quite a few replies have reconfirmed that small variations are of no real consequence "on the road" :grin: . Peter
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The bent is in the red circle. I’ll either fix it or find another. I’ll get to it later as I need to finish my Lemans
(https://i.ibb.co/Xt77yBm/4-CACF7-C2-6-F93-4109-AEEE-BEFFF5107770.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xt77yBm)
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That picture makes it look all at the rear cross tube and loop taking part of the top tube ( in front of the gussets) with it... the tubed dropping down to the lower rails are probably just tweaked and might spring back.
Not ideal but would probably still go down the road fine wheels in line wise.
That would be a fairly easy (compared to the steering head and frontal down tubes bent) repair with a heavy table.
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The bent is in the red circle. I’ll either fix it or find another. I’ll get to it later as I need to finish my Lemans
(https://i.ibb.co/Xt77yBm/4-CACF7-C2-6-F93-4109-AEEE-BEFFF5107770.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xt77yBm)
Use an I-beam as a strong back, chain both end to the frame and use a small scissors jack or hydraulic jack to bend it back. Or put it under a pickup truck with the jack against the truck frame and the bend in your frame.
Or if you know someone who has a decent sized bulldozer or back hoe, lay the frame on a sheet of plywood, put a wood block on the bend and let them push down of the block with the blade of the dozer or the bucket of the backhoe.
This ain't rocket science! Beer and someone videoing the process will ensure everything goes well.
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Are there dimensioned drawings for loop frames available? Some great shade tree methods here to bend it back but not much good if you don't know what the numbers are. There's a guy near me that buys wrecks, repos, and theft recoveries. He has a frame jig. My Cal was a wreck that I bought from him. Didn't need any frame straightening, though.
Larry
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Skip the shade tree and go right to a competitor's contemporary FSM-
(https://i.ibb.co/zVbTTCS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zVbTTCS)
(https://i.ibb.co/yf4Lr6X/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yf4Lr6X)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZxSRr4K/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxSRr4K)
(https://i.ibb.co/dcNX5NM/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcNX5NM)
(https://i.ibb.co/6Wpjm25/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Wpjm25)
These pics are more about fixing front end bits, but is a common theme throughout many HD manuals. Just fix it.
Seriously, before I spent money (which is normally how every bike & part consideration starts around here because I've been self unemployed for nearly 20 years) I would carefully check the actual wheel alignment and riding. Was it riding fine or dangerous?
After riding safety was deemed unacceptable, I would check overall geometry. You have and found discrepancy.
If that was off, I would look for witness marks and evidence of crash damage vs a manufacturing issue. These machines were built down to a cost within allowed parameters by regular people who probably only worked because they had to work.
If there's real evidence of damage, I would try to undamaged it- just like the HD manual shows.
If no good evidence of damage is readily found, it may have been built like that because it was still within allowed variations. That bent tube may have been bent from Day 1 but wasn't a deal breaker for MG quality control (......) so trying to straighten that tube after it has been captured within that frame will not go well.
Bending the top tube sideways like that without seriously damaging/totaling the rest of the bike seems unlikely to me. If it rides fine and doesn't show clear evidence of a wreck, it's probably been like that from new. Relax if you can, ride and enjoy. If all is carefully measured, it may require comparing several frames to find an "excellent" frame.
Too bad you may need a frame. I gave one away (actually two- one early V700 and one later Ambo/Eldo) just before I got my V700. That's the only dependable way to move them out of your shop. I went back and got the spare V700 frame but the other one was already gone.
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Skip the shade tree and go right to a competitor's contemporary FSM-
(https://i.ibb.co/zVbTTCS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zVbTTCS)
(https://i.ibb.co/yf4Lr6X/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yf4Lr6X)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZxSRr4K/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxSRr4K)
(https://i.ibb.co/dcNX5NM/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcNX5NM)
(https://i.ibb.co/6Wpjm25/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Wpjm25)
These pics are more about fixing front end bits, but is a common theme throughout many HD manuals. Just fix it.
When Aramet's Guzzi ends up handling like a Harley, he's gonna be even more pissed off than he is now.
Be careful what you ask for!
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^ We are talking about a loop frame here aren't we ? :grin: , Peter