Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigbikerrick on May 22, 2020, 03:44:51 PM
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I rode my Griso to the coffee shop in the nearby town of Bisbee, AZ. I was outside by my bike sipping an espresso,and a German couple approached and started talking to me about the Griso. The Gent told me that they have a reputation in Germany of being the fastest Guzzi. I told him that I didnt know that, but it was deffinitely the fastest Guzzi I had ever ridden personally, I think its faster than my V 11 sports Ive owned, but not sure. I have never pondered that question before...
What are the group's opinion on what may be the fastest production Guzzi , in top speed and acceleration?
Rick.
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MGS01 doesn't count right? 8V Griso has to be pretty close if it aint #1 :popcorn:
I remember being shocked by the CalVin's top speed: 143 134 (?) because it had the Breva's 2 plug motor.
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The Daytona may have been the fastest , 145 MPH .
Dusty
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Mine.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
...I'll get my coat...
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Mine.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You Griso might be the quickest Guzzi on the planet .
Dusty
...I'll get my coat...
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Just speculating here but I would think the 8V Norge would have a faster top speed than the Griso just due to the aerodynamics. With side bags and trunk attached I have hit 140 indicated in about a one mile run on a private runway. So pretty confident I was between 130-135. Yes, the Daytona was probably even quite a bit better on the aero.
GliderJohn
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My Stelvio......In My Dreams!!! :thumb:
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MGS01 Corsa
it is listed with 90.2kW and 255km/h (158.45mph) in the manual.
https://www.guzzitek.org/atelier/gb/1200/MGS01Corsa_022005_Atel(GB).pdf
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MGS01 Corsa
it is listed with 90.2kW and 255km/h (158.45mph) in the manual.
https://www.guzzitek.org/atelier/gb/1200/MGS01Corsa_022005_Atel(GB).pdf
The MGS wasn't a production model .
Dusty
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That's not true.
Everyone was able to buy one of this 'limited' versions.
And you can still by them used.
And in germany was a dealer which modified them to get the permission for a normal road use.
An US article about it:
https://www.odd-bike.com/2013/03/moto-guzzi-mgs-01-cooking-goose.html
Btw. I own the original mapping of the MGS01, because a japanese owner send it to me. :thumb:
It uses a 15M and it is also included in GuzziDiag :grin:
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That's not true.
Everyone was able to buy one of this 'limited' versions.
And you can still by them used.
True , I almost bought 4 of the 150 supposedly built , or would have if they weren't so blinkin' expensive . Not sure anyone has ever verified the existence of more than 50 of the Corsas .
Dusty
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My California1100 isn’t that fast but I’ll bet it will pull a 4 bottom plow. :shocked: Lol
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A quick bit of research on the internet found the 1100 Sport at 143 mph and the Daytona at 145 mph. The Norge and the Griso in the 135 mph range.
Mike
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"World's fastest ditch pump".
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I rode my Griso to the coffee shop in the nearby town of Bisbee, AZ. I was outside by my bike sipping an espresso,and a German couple approached and started talking to me about the Griso. The Gent told me that they have a reputation in Germany of being the fastest Guzzi. I told him that I didnt know that, but it was deffinitely the fastest Guzzi I had ever ridden personally, I think its faster than my V 11 sports Ive owned, but not sure. I have never pondered that question before...
What are the group's opinion on what may be the fastest production Guzzi , in top speed and acceleration?
Rick.
After riding Darren's Griso SE, I might agree with you. It did seem to tach up faster than my V11 Sport (Greenie) and all the other Grisos and Norges I'd ridden.
He mentioned that the last Grisos SE models might have lower gearing. It was a lively scooter for sure.
I'm sure someone will chime in about the SE vs the other 8v Guzzis but I think those SE models are pretty lively bikes. My Greenie still looks better. :laugh:
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I’m musing about the claims of Beetle and some others here.
My Norge is doing 4,000 rpm at 120 kph. Does the Griso run the same ratio’s ? If it did, then 240 k’s needs 8,000 rpm, I’ve been up to 180 kph and that’s (not surprisingly) 6,000 rpm.
Now Beetle’s tongue in cheek “claim” that his Griso is the fastest may (or may not) be true, but we are all bound by some inflexible rules.
It would not matter if you had 120 Newton metres of torque on hand and a calculated peak power of 90 kilowatts, the barrier will be that you will be bound by your engines ability to rev high enough.
I don’t know how much of the 1,400’s drive train Beetle’s Griso uses, but without the ability to rev higher than a standard one, it’ll fall over it’s own massive internals as the revs rise.
At what rpm does the torque begin to taper off and where in the rev range is the peak power ?
What rpm does your 1400 do at 100 k’s Beetle ?
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MGS-01 is it. Not street legal, but it was produced by the factory.
Dynotec used to sell ( may still sell) a 1225 kit to bring your Centauro / Daytona up to MGS-01 spec.
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A quick bit of research on the internet found the 1100 Sport at 143 mph and the Daytona at 145 mph. The Norge and the Griso in the 135 mph range.
Mike
No. Motorcycle Consumer News clocked the Griso 1200 at 143.95 (and the Griso 1100 at 129.3, by the way).
Moto
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:popcorn:
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True , I almost bought 4 of the 150 supposedly built , or would have if they weren't so blinkin' expensive . Not sure anyone has ever verified the existence of more than 50 of the Corsas .
Dusty
There is at least 97 corsa's (becasue I have it) acording to Guzzi vin listing 131 total made. After that the Guzzi Daytona RS C kit version (not in the US or Switerland) total run 300. The Carc system and the belt driven alternator added quiet a bit of wieght so while the latter 8valve motor might of matched the power it would be close.
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All my Moto Guzzis are fast. With the engines off the bikes are still showing that they're moving at least 5mph on the speedos. :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Don't know about the fastest Guzzi but I wager the 65cc Guzzino is the slowest!
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The fastest Moto Guzzi in Rome during rush hour would be a Robin. :grin: Same for NYC.
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Mine.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
...I'll get my coat...
No no, you're probably right!
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Umm, wrong.
(https://i.ibb.co/fXfjZYn/9-FAB0392-52-DE-45-C3-9-A80-3944-A5-C935-C5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fXfjZYn)
"The engine and the bike were without precedent: a water-cooled, 500 cc (31 cu in) V-8 motorcycle — with dual overhead cams and a separate carburetor for each of the eight cylinders. Weighing only 45 kg (99 lb) (overall bike weight 148 kg (326 lb)), its miniaturized components tightly packaged, the engine produced an unprecedented 78 hp (58 kW) at 12000 rpm. The motorcycle proved capable of achieving 172 mph (280 km/h)—20 years before the speed was reached again in Grand Prix motorcycle racing"
-Google
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Umm, wrong.
(https://i.ibb.co/fXfjZYn/9-FAB0392-52-DE-45-C3-9-A80-3944-A5-C935-C5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fXfjZYn)
"The engine and the bike were without precedent: a water-cooled, 500 cc (31 cu in) V-8 motorcycle — with dual overhead cams and a separate carburetor for each of the eight cylinders. Weighing only 45 kg (99 lb) (overall bike weight 148 kg (326 lb)), its miniaturized components tightly packaged, the engine produced an unprecedented 78 hp (58 kW) at 12000 rpm. The motorcycle proved capable of achieving 172 mph (280 km/h)—20 years before the speed was reached again in Grand Prix motorcycle racing"
-Google
Back when multiple mile straights were a thing in GP racing most of the two valve big blocks all the four valves cam in head and Carc bikes all make more HP.
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... most of the two valve big blocks all the four valves cam in head and Carc bikes all make more HP.
But none go 172 mph.
Moto
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Umm, wrong.
(https://i.ibb.co/fXfjZYn/9-FAB0392-52-DE-45-C3-9-A80-3944-A5-C935-C5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fXfjZYn)
"The engine and the bike were without precedent: a water-cooled, 500 cc (31 cu in) V-8 motorcycle — with dual overhead cams and a separate carburetor for each of the eight cylinders. Weighing only 45 kg (99 lb) (overall bike weight 148 kg (326 lb)), its miniaturized components tightly packaged, the engine produced an unprecedented 78 hp (58 kW) at 12000 rpm. The motorcycle proved capable of achieving 172 mph (280 km/h)—20 years before the speed was reached again in Grand Prix motorcycle racing"
-Google
Fast: Yes
Production: No
OP asked for production bikes
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Fast: Yes
Production: No
OP asked for production bikes
not in the title.
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There is at least 97 corsa's (becasue I have it) acording to Guzzi vin listing 131 total made. After that the Guzzi Daytona RS C kit version (not in the US or Switerland) total run 300. The Carc system and the belt driven alternator added quiet a bit of wieght so while the latter 8valve motor might of matched the power it would be close.
Murray , I've wondered for years if VIN's meant much with Guzzi , are those 131 in sequence . Seem to remember a discussion about this , any thoughts on this .
I still don't think most folks would consider the MGS as a true production motorbike , it was mostly a Ghezzi and Brian special . I'm still going with the Daytona at 145 MPH as the fastest production Guzzi , although the Griso in its latest form might have been a little quicker to 100 MPH . All guess work in the end , based on what constitutes a production model . I know that 1100 Sport that Rocker owned was capable of almost 140 .
Come to think of it , the Ex-Chuckie Centauro that Stormtruck has now will carry Truck's 260 LBS at 130 MPH .
Dusty
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I rode my Griso to the coffee shop in the nearby town of Bisbee, AZ. I was outside by my bike sipping an espresso,and a German couple approached and started talking to me about the Griso. The Gent told me that they have a reputation in Germany of being the fastest Guzzi. I told him that I didnt know that, but it was deffinitely the fastest Guzzi I had ever ridden personally, I think its faster than my V 11 sports Ive owned, but not sure. I have never pondered that question before...
What are the group's opinion on what may be the fastest production Guzzi , in top speed and acceleration?
Rick.
not in the title.
Read more
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But none go 172 mph.
Moto
:thumb:
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And of course we all know that weight has nothing to do with top speed :evil:,(just acceleration, which is kinda fun in itself) :azn:. Peter
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No no, you're probably right!
Your username suggests you never want to upset anyone and that’s admirable, but what makes you so keen to agree...?... :popcorn:
See, here’s the thing..
Whilst I freely admit Beetle’s 1400 Griso would pull like a fifteen year old boy with a dog eared Penthouse, Mark’s torque monster still has to pull more REVS to go faster than a comparable well tuned Griso side by side and although the ‘14 will out torque the standard mill at it’s peak, that peak occurs at a lower rpm figure than the ‘12, and you can’t just install a taller ratio by changing sprocket/s, or a larger pinion/smaller crown wheel.
Am I in error..?
Come on guys, don’t be scared...(beetles don’t bite, much)
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My 1200 was faster. I did have a 9000 RPM rev limit. The 1400 is limited to 8250.
124mph in 4th. 140 in 5th. Too scared to try 6th.
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My 1200 was faster. I did have a 9000 RPM rev limit. The 1400 is limited to 8250.
124mph in 4th. 140 in 5th. Too scared to try 6th.
That would have translated to 154 mph @ 8,250 if you had the torque on tap at those revs.
My point is.
Does the standard Griso power..(torque figure @ 9,000 rpm)x(9,000) = ?
Fall short of the 1400’s numbers
(torque figure @ 8,250 rpm)x(8,250)= ?
If you could get a taller sixth gear ratio into the ‘14, you’d shit it in.... :bike-037:
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I’m musing about the claims of Beetle and some others here.
My Norge is doing 4,000 rpm at 120 kph. Does the Griso run the same ratio’s ? If it did, then 240 k’s needs 8,000 rpm, I’ve been up to 200 a few times and that’s (not surprisingly) 6,000 rpm.
Mathematically of course that is not just surprising but startling
Eyesight , instrument, clutch or wheelspin ?
I use 1000rpm / speed to work gearing out, is a constant, yours varies from 30kmph @4k to 33.3 kmph @6k
Not in the game here though, best I got was a clocked 135mph for Performance Bikes twins test in 1987
Worse, I was beaten by another Guzzi at 142mph
Both ol pushrod ditch pumps, pre Daytona by quite a while
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Sorry mate I see your point.
That 200 kph is actually 180....(typo.. :embarrassed:)It’s 1.5 times the 120 kph figure.
I have seen 200 though a few times on the 2VPC Norge so that must have been 4,000 x 200/120 = 6,600 rpm.
Anyyywaaayyy...
The guts of the point is, that even with the monster torque on tap from Beetle’s 1400 Griso, the rpm would not be available from the bigger mill, so without a re gearing option, the 1400 will be slower.
However, put a trailer load of shagged flat tappets on the back of both bikes and point them at a hill and the ‘14 will stroll away.
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I’m musing about the claims of Beetle and some others here.
I didn't claim anything. Really. I was being facetious. The emoticons and "get my coat" comment should have been a dead giveaway.
Now Beetle’s tongue in cheek “claim” that his Griso is the fastest may (or may not) be true, but we are all bound by some inflexible rules.
Yes. Tongue-in-cheek. I really don't give a rat's arse how fast it goes.
It would not matter if you had 120 Newton metres of torque on hand and a calculated peak power of 90 kilowatts, the barrier will be that you will be bound by your engines ability to rev high enough.
I don’t know how much of the 1,400’s drive train Beetle’s Griso uses, but without the ability to rev higher than a standard one, it’ll fall over it’s own massive internals as the revs rise.
At what rpm does the torque begin to taper off and where in the rev range is the peak power ?
What rpm does your 1400 do at 100 k’s Beetle ?
Same as yours. Pretty sure the gearbox ratios are the same. The Norge did have a slight change in 5th & 6th ratios in later boxes, but it will be within a bee's dick.
I'm not interested in increasing the rev limit. It's all about the torque, and those pistons are 34 grams heavier than the 1200's. The torque curve is pretty flat. Max torque is at 4600 and drops around 20% by 8000.
Regardless, top speed would be the same. Assuming I didn't end up with a rod up the chuff, the extra torque would help.
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Facetious...?
Pffftttt...!
As if.. :rolleyes:
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Murray , I've wondered for years if VIN's meant much with Guzzi , are those 131 in sequence . Seem to remember a discussion about this , any thoughts on this .
I still don't think most folks would consider the MGS as a true production motorbike , it was mostly a Ghezzi and Brian special . I'm still going with the Daytona at 145 MPH as the fastest production Guzzi , although the Griso in its latest form might have been a little quicker to 100 MPH . All guess work in the end , based on what constitutes a production model . I know that 1100 Sport that Rocker owned was capable of almost 140 .
Come to think of it , the Ex-Chuckie Centauro that Stormtruck has now will carry Truck's 260 LBS at 130 MPH .
Dusty
I'm not sure with other Guzzi's but with the MGS-01 yes in order normally each different model has its own vin however part of the VIN is the year of production country of origin. Ghezzi Brian called it a limited volume production bike as they considered it to be much more of a production bike than thier specials supposedly there would be up to 150 if they got enough orders but no more. Which is really only half of the total production of the Daytona RS.
My 1100 sport which has the carbs and exhaust although the motor is mostly stock (it got a mild port during rebuild a few years ago) given enough space and you needed plenty of it would get up to around redline in top gear at 230ish kph, typically I wasnt concentrating on the instruments too hard at this point. 190 would come up pretty quickly 210 ish would follow without too much time passing and the last 15-20kph would require lying flat on the tank with the throttle peged for kilometer after kilometer. I'll add we are also taking the speedo at its indication which is most likely not the most scientific process. In annectdotal testing it also seemed to be about the same speed as a stock Daytona 1000 A spec motor.
Fairly certain the griso etc had a bit shorter gearing even with the addional gear in the gearbox. Wouldn't it be nice if Guzzi decided to make intresting bikes again.
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Interesting discussion, Folks! So it looks like the group's collective opinion places the MGS 01 on top, then the Daytona, followed by the 1100 sport,and then the Griso SE. :thumb:
Rick.
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Wouldn't it be nice if Guzzi decided to make intresting bikes again.
Oh yes. Yes.
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Interesting discussion, Folks! So it looks like the group's collective opinion places the MGS 01 on top, then the Daytona, followed by the 1100 sport,and then the Griso SE. :thumb:
Rick.
For the sake of accuracy there is actually three versions of the Daytona the 1000 the 1000 Racing (100 only not delivered to the USA) and the Daytona RS, the racing has the C kit motor with the older shape bodywork and the front end of the 1100 sport (6 way adjustable forks 320mm rotors) the RS has the body work of the 1100 sport and the wheels and suspension was shared with the sport 1100i (which setup is a vast improvment of the earlier stuff). There was also an sport 1100i corsa? can't exacty remeber the last 200 sport 1100i's carillo rods and termi cans were the main point of difference were they any faster? probablly not.
Somewhat of a refection of Guzzi's lot is the top three bikes are all based on a long defunct motor that was build as a stopgap in the late 80's to buy a bit of time for the orginal block until they came up with something better.
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fastest implies top speed, quickest implies acceleration. Power without proper gearing is useless. Aerodynamics makes a big difference on top speed. There were/are partially faired Guzzis going quite fast (Fireman Bob) at Bonneville. 160's, 170's and maybe even one low 180 depending on class (I don't have rule book in front of me). Those were on 2 valve motors.
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Around 7 years ago my 84 naked frame Cali 2 cafe ran 117 mph at the one mile standing start LSR track in Ohio..Timed by digital equipment not a bouncing speedo needle or non calibrated hand held equipment , lol...
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Yamaha R6.
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Around 7 years ago my 84 naked frame Cali 2 cafe ran 117 mph at the one mile standing start LSR track in Ohio..Timed by digital equipment not a bouncing speedo needle or non calibrated hand held equipment , lol...
No better way to bring reality into a theoretical specifications race than with cold hard facts and legitimate results.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
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For the sake of accuracy there is actually three versions of the Daytona the 1000 the 1000 Racing (100 only not delivered to the USA) and the Daytona RS, the racing has the C kit motor with the older shape bodywork and the front end of the 1100 sport (6 way adjustable forks 320mm rotors) the RS has the body work of the 1100 sport and the wheels and suspension was shared with the sport 1100i (which setup is a vast improvment of the earlier stuff). There was also an sport 1100i corsa? can't exacty remeber the last 200 sport 1100i's carillo rods and termi cans were the main point of difference were they any faster? probablly not.
Somewhat of a refection of Guzzi's lot is the top three bikes are all based on a long defunct motor that was build as a stopgap in the late 80's to buy a bit of time for the orginal block until they came up with something better.
Murray where does the Dr John fit in, I think it was B kitted?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9RjpCY3T0uCHK9mNGlTbt-tvC044nM3HOH0YM7CYklqRkfzKMxKq0xlwM94MxbMrdJ7_Z_Yzl9_EeUx7Z73tpXhMClbPVGc9SfDHOc84j6IuGjr6yHnl-AQUhUIpDd3eJeat9Ldzcaopg9uvC9wMSkkOOpaQlr7mkya-p_DKdJ_93Os0UcA-1H_FSGz6MqNfX-7M7R1n-TLsb6vteTxz5IVevrP5-34zLIx4KebGNhrclADmqiL1QAXbSt_Ro4mQ-iUAr_Vp23pPZpVqZ8VKedPPYSR-e8Rjuyu1cGduP7jaf4XzU8n4b481Sf0rcMQabTNcFePzkM15jygKK0LjiDq5KJrPu5LmIsZ2f17lG-7LRhRAHdzzoKFLCFI1uH-inW-dzcGSPN80aeEwThPyj5sDQlqw2gQ0fE0mUHscehoITf7WuhI6HWHxrwC7DytkMq77Rqds_gd6eKIFL6uKXL-7HgCNK82nqCE2B39rIHGtdHcxHJqeoTMSI0bD2qQzmiot3BVgNUz5av22CF5ilrM_ktzVepS3FaG4DIZPyTw511SdoE_SsHi7U-6Xq-d65pcWH8XQDioDS6KpKdiwPI7hIjdgS7uB2YJdUE6avD1g7EhaqfoCjkAzl1dHSg1w-RRmH1jn-V17DAV_TQnbwbvaGjKN4mPTp_oMoex_ogQ-y94rrCqCZn60olOAcg=w1340-h1005-no?authuser=0)
I also thought, but feel free to correct me, all the Non US/Singapore/Switzerland Daytona RS's were full C Kitted, the US/Singapore/Switzerland Daytona RS had the same cams and spec as the Centauros.
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Murray where does the Dr John fit in, I think it was B kitted?
I also thought, but feel free to correct me, all the Non US/Singapore/Switzerland Daytona RS's were full C Kitted, the US/Singapore/Switzerland Daytona RS had the same cams and spec as the Centauros.
NFI never played with a Dr John version, re the RS thats what I understood too, thought the detune also affected the pistons however probably @ Pauls Daytona whould be in a far better place to answer we didn't get them here in Oz.
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Around 7 years ago my 84 naked frame Cali 2 cafe ran 117 mph at the one mile standing start LSR track in Ohio..Timed by digital equipment not a bouncing speedo needle or non calibrated hand held equipment , lol...
[/quote
That’s believable. But no California that ever came from the factory with the ability to hit 143mph! Dual plug Breva motor or not, they don’t get out of the 120s.
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A quick bit of research on the internet found the 1100 Sport at 143 mph and the Daytona at 145 mph. The Norge and the Griso in the 135 mph range.
Mike
I'll say for nothing that my near-stock LeMans IV was notably faster, but not quicker, than my '97 1100 Sport-i in similar trim. I found that strange, although I have to admit that I've not spent any time tuning the top end fueling on the 1100.
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During the time I was land speed racing at the one mile track ,2013-2015 the fastest stock Japanese big bore sport bikes were crowding 175 mph. But stock production in LSR means stock exhaust and air boxes the engine internals can be tuned beyond stock. Fastest production 2 cylinder bikes were the last Buell's with the Rotex engines, about 160 mph. At the 1.5 mile track in Maine some of the same bikes were 5 mph faster.
My naked frame 650 Triumph racer with 55 rwhp , about 65 at the flywheel, ran consistent 133 mph at Maine.
I believe a non faired stock Guzzi with 75 rwhp should be able to see 145 mph.
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has the body work of the 1100 sport and the wheels and suspension was shared with the sport 1100i (which setup is a vast improvment of the earlier stuff).
the daytona rs had a more expensive rear shock over the 1100 sporti/centauro. The rs has an aluminium housing the cheaper ones steel.
The MGS01 was build 136 times. Murray you were co owner of an mgs01, still are?
Some parts on the MGS01 hint on a plan to build much more(road version), like the gastank, the mold for such a thing can't be paid from so little pieces. It is also te cheapest spare part. The MGS01 was not expensive for what you got.
I think the fastest tuned Guzzi is the Guzzila from Dynotec.
My Daytona does 240kmh in sixth gear at 9000rpm but with longer gearing it would be faster. No need for that the wind blows strong enough at 240. It reaches the 240 quick. Max power at 8000
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Your username suggests you never want to upset anyone and that’s admirable, but what makes you so keen to agree...?... :popcorn:
Come on guys, don’t be scared...(beetles don’t bite, much)
Huzo
My username is an ancient Welsh word that means "he who avoids brined cucumber". Especially if juxtaposed to motorcycling. :bike-037:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdwzwgirDQ
As to being agreeable, I'm pretty easy to get along with. But I have no need to comment that on that bike other than I think it's probably true. And Beetle gave me 50 bucks to say so. :grin:
But as far as Beetle's tire shredder Griso goes I'd bet that it would show the tail light to just about any Guzzi with a reg plate. That much torque in that package is gonna get up and go! 80% of the torque peak at 8000 rpm? The only limitation is the human holding the bars. Not to say that it is the highest top speed, but the trip there will be AWESOME!
Hunter
P.S. Is it too cold to ride there yet?
P.P.S. I actually do like pickles.
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Huzo
My username is an ancient Welsh word that means "he who avoids brined cucumber". Especially if juxtaposed to motorcycling. :bike-037:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdwzwgirDQ
As to being agreeable, I'm pretty easy to get along with. But I have no need to comment that on that bike other than I think it's probably true. And Beetle gave me 50 bucks to say so. :grin:
But as far as Beetle's tire shredder Griso goes I'd bet that it would show the tail light to just about any Guzzi with a reg plate. That much torque in that package is gonna get up and go! 80% of the torque peak at 8000 rpm? The only limitation is the human holding the bars. Not to say that it is the highest top speed, but the trip there will be AWESOME!
Hunter
P.S. Is it too cold to ride there yet?
P.P.S. I actually do like pickles.
Yep, never said otherwise..
But when the question is addressing which Guzzi is FASTER..?
It does not matter if you have twice the torque, if you can only rev to 8,250 and the bike next to you can rev to 9,000, then the 9,000 rpm bike will turn the rear wheel faster...
Beetle has conceded as much. He was being facetious and I made the mistake of not realising it.
Facetiousness just didn’t sound like him.... :rolleyes:
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Yep, never said otherwise..
But when the question is addressing which Guzzi is FASTER..?
It does not matter if you have twice the torque, if you can only rev to 8,250 and the bike next to you can rev to 9,000, then the 9,000 rpm bike will turn the rear wheel faster...
Beetle has conceded as much. He was being facetious and I made the mistake of not realising it.
Facetiousness just didn’t sound like him.... :rolleyes:
So my friend's CB 360 that revs to 9,200 RPM's is faster than my Bassa ? Who knew .
Dusty
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So my friend's CB 360 that revs to 9,200 RPM's is faster than my Bassa ? Who knew .
Dusty
Nice try Dusty but you fired a little early.
I said...
If the 9,000 rpm bike CAN pull the revs then it WILL be faster because of the mechanical connection to the rear wheel. If it does not have the TORQUE available then the lower revving higher torque ‘14 will win.
Power is TORQUE x RPM and it’s the multiple of the two that gives POWER.
By the time the 1200 hits 8250 rpm side by side with the 1400 the race is still even, but the 1400 has hit it’s rev limit so cannot continue to accelerate, IF the 1200 has enough torque to increase the revs by a bit more then it will slightly pull away..
Power is an often quoted and just as often misunderstood term.
Power is and always was an expression of the RATE of DOING WORK.
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Nice try Dusty but you fired a little early.
I said...
If the 9,000 rpm bike CAN pull the revs then it WILL be faster because of the mechanical connection to the rear wheel. If it does not have the TORQUE available then the lower revving higher torque ‘14 will win.
Power is TORQUE x RPM and it’s the multiple of the two that gives POWER.
By the time the 1200 hits 8250 rpm side by side with the 1400 the race is still even, but the 1400 has hit it’s rev limit so cannot continue to accelerate, IF the 1200 has enough torque to increase the revs by a bit more then it will slightly pull away..
Power is an often quoted and just as often misunderstood term.
Power is and always was an expression of the RATE of DOING WORK.
Well duh .
Dusty
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Huzo
My username is an ancient Welsh word that means "he who avoids brined cucumber". Especially if juxtaposed to motorcycling. :bike-037:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdwzwgirDQ
P.S. Is it too cold to ride there yet?
P.P.S. I actually do like pickles.
I took the bevelbox off my V85 down to Geelong on Friday.
I was on my Norge and it was 9 degrees C.
The cold air was just what my Norge wanted and being suitably dressed it was lovely.
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Well duh .
Dusty
There’s something that I don’t always pick up on over on my side of the Pacific.
Your humour is different.
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There’s something that I don’t always pick up on over on my side of the Pacific.
Your humour is different.
Meh , no one here gets me either .
Dusty
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Your humour is different.
Nah - your humor is different.
And it's so finely honed, too!
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147 indicated, 144 GPS, tucked in behind the speed screen. Didn't notice where the tach was but hadn't hit the limiter yet. There was a little more left. Griso.
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147 indicated, 144 GPS, tucked in behind the speed screen. Didn't notice where the tach was but hadn't hit the limiter yet. There was a little more left. Griso.
Of course that was on the track, right? :wink:
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Of course that was on the track, right? :wink:
Asked an Ozzie who now lives in Texas why he moved here , "Because you can drive fast here mate" :laugh:
Dusty
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Here is a historic data point for you.
In 1985 I ran a friend's quite new Mark 3 Le Mans in a Bears speed trial. It was timed both ways over a flying quarter. Average speed 130.65 mph. I was 3rd on the day, first place went to another friend on his BMW K100RS at around 135mph. 2nd place was a very highly tuned Triumph with an average speed of about 0.25mph higher than the LM. A good fart would have done it!
I'm pretty sure it was maxxed out, the engine was quiet, there was just the wind noise. I had used my first run to figure out how to launch it and fit myself in behind the screen. And to crib an extra bit of run up at the starting end because that end was a bit shorter.
Tony
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Nice try Dusty but you fired a little early.
I said...
If the 9,000 rpm bike CAN pull the revs then it WILL be faster because of the mechanical connection to the rear wheel. If it does not have the TORQUE available then the lower revving higher torque ‘14 will win.
Power is TORQUE x RPM and it’s the multiple of the two that gives POWER.
By the time the 1200 hits 8250 rpm side by side with the 1400 the race is still even, but the 1400 has hit it’s rev limit so cannot continue to accelerate, IF the 1200 has enough torque to increase the revs by a bit more then it will slightly pull away..
Power is an often quoted and just as often misunderstood term.
Power is and always was an expression of the RATE of DOING WORK.
I understand the mechanical thing but the engine may have other rpm requirements . My LSR 650 Triumph makes record speed at a calculated 6950 rpm, much lower than the other Triumphs. For my bike, it's the rpm representing the sum of the highest average sum of torque and HP.
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Here is a historic data point for you.
In 1985 I ran a friend's quite new Mark 3 Le Mans in a Bears speed trial. It was timed both ways over a flying quarter. Average speed 130.65 mph. I was 3rd on the day, first place went to another friend on his BMW K100RS at around 135mph. 2nd place was a very highly tuned Triumph with an average speed of about 0.25mph higher than the LM. A good fart would have done it!
I'm pretty sure it was maxxed out, the engine was quiet, there was just the wind noise. I had used my first run to figure out how to launch it and fit myself in behind the screen. And to crib an extra bit of run up at the starting end because that end was a bit shorter.
Tony
At least two period motorcycle magazines back in the '70s measured the top speed of the 850 LeMans at a bit over 130 mph which is what Guzzi claimed. This with a 7200 redline and 7:33 gears. I had mine maxed out but with the Veglia swinging back and forth between 100 and 150 it was only a guess. If the tach was accurate then it did pull 7200 no problem. Later when Manfred Hecht flowed the heads and put in stronger springs it would pull 8000 rpms with ease and I have seen 8300 before backing off. This with 7:33 gears but a close ratio gearbox which has a lower top end. Not sure it would even attain 130 with that gearbox but it did and continues to pull redline even 30 years and many track days after the rebuild.
Pete
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I took the bevelbox off my V85 down to Geelong on Friday.
I was on my Norge and it was 9 degrees C.
The cold air was just what my Norge wanted and being suitably dressed it was lovely.
A Norge loves a cool day! I might ride mine today even though it's over 80 (27C). I would normally ride the LeMans but it is evidently in cahoots with your new bike as the rear drive is leaking!
Happy Motoring!
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During the time I was land speed racing at the one mile track ,2013-2015 the fastest stock Japanese big bore sport bikes were crowding 175 mph. But stock production in LSR means stock exhaust and air boxes the engine internals can be tuned beyond stock. Fastest production 2 cylinder bikes were the last Buell's with the Rotex engines, about 160 mph. At the 1.5 mile track in Maine some of the same bikes were 5 mph faster.
My naked frame 650 Triumph racer with 55 rwhp , about 65 at the flywheel, ran consistent 133 mph at Maine.
I believe a non faired stock Guzzi with 75 rwhp should be able to see 145 mph.
This is all very realistic compared to what I've seen. Racing H-D 883 Sportsters, ~62rwhp netted ~130mph. The best of them at ~65rwhp were ~140mph.
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n you have the V8 powered Curtiss LSR motorbike that ran 136 with an engine rated at 40 HP AT 1,800 RPM's . Go Huzo , what kind of gearing was he running to go that fast at such a low engine speed ?
Dusty
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https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/mandello-meteor/
This one is fast, nice bike
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https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/mandello-meteor/
This one is fast, nice bike
That was an excellent read,
tks for sharing
Kelly
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I enjoyed it too.
kk
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Some of my parts went 182 mph, makes me smile...
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n you have the V8 powered Curtiss LSR motorbike that ran 136 with an engine rated at 40 HP AT 1,800 RPM's . Go Huzo , what kind of gearing was he running to go that fast at such a low engine speed ?
Dusty
Thanks for the invitation Dusty, I accept.
I’d need to know the diameter of the driving wheel would I not..?
One will need to calculate the RPM of the rear wheel @ that speed and see how many times it goes into 1,800.
It won’t be a hell of a long way short of 1:1
But feel free to break out your abacii and have a crack... :popcorn:
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The Curtiss bike was only 40 hp but it was 270 cubic inches. Crude as it was,it must have a bit of torque...
We can argue if it's HP or torque that moves the bike....Example, On a Superflow dyno,my 650 Triumph racer makes 55 rwhp between 7000-7150 rpm. Peak torque is 46 ft lbs at 5100 rpm. At 6900-7000 rpm the engine still has 40 ft lbs of torque...Best speed as mentioned is when geared not to exceed 6900 rpm...Dyno power read outs may differ a bit than track or road performance but it's a valid example...
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The Curtiss bike was only 40 hp but it was 270 cubic inches. Crude as it was,it must have a bit of torque...
We can argue if it's HP or torque that moves the bike....Example, On a Superflow dyno,my 650 Triumph racer makes 55 rwhp between 7000-7150 rpm. Peak torque is 46 ft lbs at 5100 rpm. At 6900-7000 rpm the engine still has 40 ft lbs of torque...Best speed as mentioned is when geared not to exceed 6900 rpm...Dyno power read outs may differ a bit than track or road performance but it's a valid example...
Torque turns the wheel.
Power is a numerical figure assigned to the rate at which the work was done to move the mass...(how many times..)
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Imagine how much faster his 40hp could have taken him if his bike looked like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/MZDNR3Z/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MZDNR3Z)
Instead of this.
(https://i.ibb.co/f8jyDM5/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8jyDM5)
Pete
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I took the bevelbox off my V85 down to Geelong on Friday.
I was on my Norge and it was 9 degrees C.
The cold air was just what my Norge wanted and being suitably dressed it was lovely.
Friday was a cold and bleak day.
Referring to Geelong as Bleak is kind of being kind (their football team is a another mater entirely).
( i am entitled to slag the place, since i worked there or lived nearby for 37 years )
I presume you were taking the Bevelbox to PS the Guzzi dealer in these parts, how did things transpire?
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Torque turns the wheel.
Power is a numerical figure assigned to the rate at which the work was done to move the mass...(how many times..)
Yes, so torque is the only real number. Back to the example, the Curtiss bike and my bike ran about the same speed, but Curtiss was on a hard packed sand that should have a bit more drag. Both are naked frame but mine is lower, more narrow and with low clip ones ,the rider on mine is less exposed to airflow. Assuming the Curtiss bike speed was timed accurately, the quoted engine rpm accurate, his engine might have made 60 ft lbs torque at the rpm required for 136 mph.
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I presume you were taking the Bevelbox to PS the Guzzi dealer in these parts, how did things transpire?
They’ve got a couple more days then I’ll tell them to get rooted.
Will probably do it myself.
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n you have the V8 powered Curtiss LSR motorbike that ran 136 with an engine rated at 40 HP AT 1,800 RPM's . Go Huzo , what kind of gearing was he running to go that fast at such a low engine speed ?
Dusty
I know from recent work, that the rear wheel of Barry’s R1100S is doing about 1000 rpm at 100 kph.
136 mph is 218 kph, so at that revs a wheel of same size is doing about 2,000 rpm.
If the engine is @ 1,800 rpm
and the wheel is @ 2,000 rpm
Then the ratio is about 1:1
That’s without doing any measurements..
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The Curtiss bike was only 40 hp but it was 270 cubic inches. Crude as it was,it must have a bit of torque...
We can argue if it's HP or torque that moves the bike....Example, On a Superflow dyno,my 650 Triumph racer makes 55 rwhp between 7000-7150 rpm. Peak torque is 46 ft lbs at 5100 rpm. At 6900-7000 rpm the engine still has 40 ft lbs of torque...Best speed as mentioned is when geared not to exceed 6900 rpm...Dyno power read outs may differ a bit than track or road performance but it's a valid example...
Power= torque x rpm
So. 40 = torque x 1800
Therefore
Torque = 40/1800 x 3300 = 73 foot pounds or 99 Nm...That’s my guess
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The aircraft V8 in the Curtiss LSR bike was built when power output wasn't really even measured , the figures were based on displacement . Was up late , didn't get much sleep , but once the brain clears a bit we can do the math and figure the torque numbers for that engine if we believe it was making 40 HP at 1,800 RPM's . Guessing it was Diesel like , probably 100 lbs feet at that engine speed .
Oh , Huzo , you are probably about right at that 1:1 figure
:coffee:
Dusty
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The aircraft V8 in the Curtiss LSR bike was built when power output wasn't really even measured , the figures were based on displacement . Was up late , didn't get much sleep , but once the brain clears a bit we can do the math and figure the torque numbers for that engine if we believe it was making 40 HP at 1,800 RPM's . Guessing it was Diesel like , probably 100 lbs feet at that engine speed .
Oh , Huzo , you are probably about right at that 1:1 figure
:coffee:
..
Dusty
For use in aircraft ,maximum rpms held to a level that gave some sort of reliability in that era. Used a sprint racing engine in bike,the rpm may have been 2100 for example.You really need the actual gear ratio and tire diameter. But I think ,based on my experience,60-70 ft lbs would do the job
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I officiate at boat time trials. We have a guy that has132 records including the overall top speed for an outboard, V8 2 stroke Evinrude. He is very intune with atmospheric conditions and trys to run when everything is conducive to the best equipment performance. Google Bob Wartinger if interested. A really nice guy.
kk
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For use in aircraft ,maximum rpms held to a level that gave some sort of reliability in that era. Used a sprint racing engine in bike,the rpm may have been 2100 for example.You really need the actual gear ratio and tire diameter. But I think ,based on my experience,60-70 ft lbs would do the job
Doing the math shows the Curtiss V8 making 116 lbs ft of torque at the 1800 RPM figure used to derive the 40 HP figure .
Dusty
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116? Nice!
:whip2:
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Wouldn't it be nice if Guzzi decided to make intresting bikes again.
Yeah. I'm more or less living for that (faint) hope. :tongue:
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In germany is a guy who builds super charged Guzzi engines.
A friend of me owns one.
The RPM is limited to 8500. But it would also went up to 9500 or 10000.
http://www.kompressor-guzzi.de/
The following link shows the first prototype and the first diagramms.
But as written, the later versions are limited to 8500 und not 7500.
http://www.kompressor-guzzi.de/kguzzi.htm
Here a picture of the one from my friend:
(https://i.ibb.co/NjvFYyy/grafik.png) (https://ibb.co/NjvFYyy)
He told me something about 138PS and 130Nm from 2800U/min up to the rpm limit.
But I have not the diagramms of it.
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IIRC When the Daytona 1000 was developed for the ecu had a rev limit because the weak point was in the drivetrain. The engine could rev to develop horsepower and torque but the transmission/clutch components couldn't handle the increased stresses.
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Here a picture of the one from my friend:
It looks very impressive. Does your friend find it mostly fun, or many hassles?
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In germany is a guy who builds super charged Guzzi engines.
A friend of me owns one.
The RPM is limited to 8500. But it would also went up to 9500 or 10000.
http://www.kompressor-guzzi.de/
The following link shows the first prototype and the first diagramms.
But as written, the later versions are limited to 8500 und not 7500.
http://www.kompressor-guzzi.de/kguzzi.htm
Here a picture of the one from my friend:
(https://i.ibb.co/NjvFYyy/grafik.png) (https://ibb.co/NjvFYyy)
He told me something about 138PS and 130Nm from 2800U/min up to the rpm limit.
But I have not the diagramms of it.
2 VPC ?
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Looks like it. I don't know how much of an advantage extra valves provide when forcing air into a motor.
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1972 Nuovo Falcone
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The engine was an original Griso 2V with 1064 ccm.
It's just for fun and gives many fun.
He also extended the suspension:
Rear: Öhlins S36PR1C1L
Front: Paioli RSU 46
The charger is an Eaton
Only disadvantage: he needs a lot of rear tires :wink:
Btw.: the bike/engine was build in 2014/15
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Guzzi Magnum :thumb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1yiKZd4ZhE
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My red Millie———- can still pull hot air out of a paper bag....
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Guzzi Magnum :thumb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1yiKZd4ZhE
I didn't know Guzzi made CARS!
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Looks like it. I don't know how much of an advantage extra valves provide when forcing air into a motor.
More volume and less valve train inertia with higher rpm which means lighter valve springs so less power to drive them. Few years ago locally people were experimenting with sprintex superchargers on HD's and a few ducatis valve seat temp was a fairly serious problem, wasn't the most successful venture. Guzzi's problem for extracting lots more is with the old two valves are the head you can get them a bit better than factory however the last of the 1100 sports, 1200 two valves etc had taken the design as far as it can go.
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Once a Guzzi V-Twin engine gets into the 110 HP and up range, I understand they start breaking crankshafts. Raceco was making 130 HP with their Daytona engine, and apparently this was the ultimate limit. Limiting RPM would probably help.
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What Tusyan said.
+ you could supercharge a 4vpc guzzi, but it would tear itself to bits.
This was learned a long time ago with the Alfa 116 / Busso V6 engine. You could get 450 hp out of the engine several different ways. The problem is anything above 300 hp and the transaxle starts failing.
I've been contemplating a draw through turbo on a old guzzi. Still doing due diligence.
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It still comes down to usable power. My BIL had a Hayabusa in Honolulu. He only rode it on weekends and early in the morning. No traffic.
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I had a busa for less than a year. Great bike with great every day usable power IF you can monitor your right wrist. Once the tac hits a certain number, shit gets scary.
You never have to worry about a guzzi making that kind of power :grin:
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I had a busa for less than a year. Great bike with great every day usable power IF you can monitor your right wrist. Once the tac hits a certain number, shit gets scary.
You never have to worry about a guzzi making that kind of power :grin:
Re Hyabusa.
Mike Tyson can stroke you gently on the face as easily as Snow White, it’s just that Mike can also send you to hell in a hand basket if he wishes..
Same with the ‘Busa, they are extremely docile and surprisingly agile all things considered. Their power is useable everywhere and feels unlimited when you ride one. Funny thing is, they get to 270 k’s so easily and without fanfare, that they are not as “scary” as a GSXR1000 or ZX 10 etc...
It’s just when that corner 800 metres ahead is coming up faster than you thought, you start to wonder..
“How did I get going so fast...!”
I swear that the Hyabusa I rode, gets from 200 to 270, quicker than my Norge gets from 100 to 170...
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It looks very impressive. Does your friend find it mostly fun, or many hassles?
Not Captain Kremmen of the Star Corps perchance...? :popcorn:
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MGS-01 is it. Not street legal, but it was produced by the factory.
Dynotec used to sell ( may still sell) a 1225 kit to bring your Centauro / Daytona up to MGS-01 spec.
I believe it is the MGS-01 and/or the Daytona... :thumb: :cool: :wink:
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I believe it is the MGS-01 and/or the Daytona... :thumb: :cool: :wink:
A late Stelvio makes more power than a Daytona
Dusty
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It might make a little more horsepower than a Daytona, but it's certainly not faster and it wasn't meant to be.
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Not Captain Kremmen of the Star Corps perchance...? :popcorn:
Look out! Thargoids!
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Look out! Thargoids!
Good luck on your next intergalactic adventure.
Give my regards to Uranus.....!