Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jim mac on June 07, 2020, 07:36:31 AM
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Took the bike out for a run, got about 30 miles and it died on me, no signs of a problem just no power.
Puller into a layby and scratched my head. Buke didnt want to start again. I had the tank off the day before so off again to make sure nothing dislodged etc - nothing.
Tried it again, turning over a but slower than usual but no start.
Called the breakdown and waited. Gave it another try in hope and it was trying to start and eventually it did, running lumpy and rough but it was running. Nursed it home, it would go above 5000 revs. I got the impression it was only running on one cylinder.
Got it home and immediately took off the new map I had just installed and old one back on again as well as the Finebau unit as previous- no change. Plug on left sooty but dry, plug on right normal. Changed plugs no difference. Still wont rev above 5k. It's quite happy at tick over but doesn't run smooth above 2k and wont go higher than 5k
Ideas ?
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It certainly sounds like it is running on the right cylinder only. The Norge has 2 ignition coils. My bet is the left coil, left ground, or left lambda sensor was disturbed when you had the tank off.
Did you check the left exhaust pipe? I would imagine it would be not nearly as hot as the right or even cool.
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Took the bike out for a run, got about 30 miles and it died on me, no signs of a problem just no power.
Puller into a layby and scratched my head. Buke didnt want to start again. I had the tank off the day before so off again to make sure nothing dislodged etc - nothing.
Tried it again, turning over a but slower than usual but no start.
Called the breakdown and waited. Gave it another try in hope and it was trying to start and eventually it did, running lumpy and rough but it was running. Nursed it home, it would go above 5000 revs. I got the impression it was only running on one cylinder.
Got it home and immediately took off the new map I had just installed and old one back on again as well as the Finebau unit as previous- no change. Plug on left sooty but dry, plug on right normal. Changed plugs no difference. Still wont rev above 5k. It's quite happy at tick over but doesn't run smooth above 2k and wont go higher than 5k
Ideas ?
Have you upgraded the plug caps?
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Have you upgraded the plug caps?
+1 . The stock caps have been known to fail quite regularly
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plug caps are originals - 2012. never had any sparking issues and getting a strong spark on both sides - I reckon its no fuel on left - injector ?
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plug caps are originals - 2012. never had any sparking issues and getting a strong spark on both sides - I reckon its no fuel on left - injector ?
I'm sure you do. But the issue isn't failure to conduct to the spark plug. The issue is the stock rubber caps crack and the spark routes to the Head and plug hole rather than to the spark plug. Is an easy upgrade and fix to an all-too-common issue. Even some 1400s are having issues.
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You handle maps, but did you also look for the sensor values and errors with GuzziDiag?
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I'd check my spark on the cold cylinder.
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"my eyes deceive me" change the boots before wasting your time on other things.
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"my eyes deceive me" change the boots before wasting your time on other things.
Yes, This!
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I did suggest it sounded like a spark problem. I also asked you to run an injector test. Have you done that? You can test spark & injectors with GuzziDiag.
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I was at a traffic stop about a mile from a friend's house and suddenly my Norge started misfiring. I managed to reach my friend's house with the right cylinder almost smoking hot and the left cool. When it cooled I pulled both boots and bending them back and forth checked them for cracks. Yep, found a crack in the left boot. Repaired with self-sealing tape. BTW the dealer had replaced the plugs the week before.
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Yep. Check the boot. Hamlin made a special tool to remove the boot without doing damage. He's that way-always doing things a better way. Every time I'm there I see a new something or other he's made to do a specific job better. Amazing.
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I did suggest it sounded like a spark problem. I also asked you to run an injector test. Have you done that? You can test spark & injectors with GuzziDiag.
I ran an injector test, no change. no faults showing on GD, don't know what I would be looking for on a spark test on GD ?
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When I had a bad plug cap on my Stelvio, I was able to wrap some electrical tape around the cap to get by until I was able to replace them. Right at the top where the cap makes the 90 degree turn, they can crack on the bottom of that angle. When that happened to me, I could see a very small burn mark on the valve cover where arcing had occurred. Just a couple layers of tape around that area cured my trouble [until I replaced them].
John Henry
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I ran an injector test, no change. no faults showing on GD, don't know what I would be looking for on a spark test on GD ?
If your injector is working, then you should focus on the plug caps. Pull the plug and rest it on the valve cover. Use GuzziDiag to test the spark. With the lights out, you should be able to see any wayward spark.
Check for cracks in the plug cap. They can be unscrewed to check for corrosion or arcing. Pull the lead from the coil and measure the lead. Should be ~5KΩ.
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pulled the injector and turned the engine - no fuel being passed, tried right - fuel ejecting.
looks like a duffed injector then, but guzzidiag not showing a fault ?
i note that it has 6 spray holes - but ones on web show 4 - does number of holes matter
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GuzziDiag only pulses the injector. There's no feedback from the injector, so if it doesn't fire, neither GuzziDiag, nor the ECU will flag a fault. Only ground shorts or open circuits flag an error.
The number of holes is indicative of injector model, not it's functionality.
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For anyone else following this thread, if you use GuzziDiag to test the injectors, always listen for "phht" noise the injector makes. Pop the injectors out and point them into a container helps, as you can see and hear it firing.
There are no errors if the injector doesn't fire. Only ground shorts or open circuits flag an error.
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By golly, same thing for me 2 years back, 150 miles from home. Nursed that obnoxious sucker to nearest motel, and started taking things off, tank included. Finally thought I should go simple, instead of freaking. Pulled the spark plug boots, and then the sparkies. Cleaned them up, put it all back together...and wrapped that throttle on start up...damn near fell off the bike when it tached well beyond 5K! I also bought the better boots, but have yet to install them....bike still running strong. Go for the easy, simple stuff first.
Lee
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GuzziDiag only pulses the injector. There's no feedback from the injector, so if it doesn't fire, neither GuzziDiag, nor the ECU will flag a fault. Only ground shorts or open circuits flag an error.
The number of holes is indicative of injector model, not it's functionality.
OK, the injector appears to be model iwp 162 - so as long as this part number, the holes don't affect anything, I cant find any with 6 only 4, so that should be an ok fit ?
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iwp-162 should have 4 holes, although I have a document that's says 5 holes. Does it have a white band? The holes do matter in that both injectors should have the same number of holes. Also, you want to sure it's a real iwp-162. There's a few knock-offs getting about, and they have a different flow rates. Different flow rates will bugger the mapping completely.
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cleaned it up properly and see it is actually a IWP 190 - need new spectacles i think - 6 holes and blue band
anything from another vehicle fit ?
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The 190 was used in Guzzi big blocks from ~2010, as well as some Aprilia's. Probably a few Italian models. Harley's as well.
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Before buying a new injector, try swapping them to ensure the issue isn't electrical or the connector.
You still should change your plug caps :evil: :grin:
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Swopped them over, good injector shoots bad doesn't.
I swopped the caps and leads, no difference. New injector coming from Stein Dinse, eventually.....
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New injector fitted, both now working, but still running rough and wont go above 5k revs
Did a compression test and got 225 on leeft and 105 on right, blue warm and throttle full open ?
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I would pull the breather cap on RH side and see if that cam jumped a tooth, it does happen. Once compression gets by 80psi it won't run.
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I agree with Steve. That behaviour is typical of cam timing being out. Classic symptoms.
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it would go above 5000 revs.
Still wont rev above 5k.
???
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I would pull the breather cap on RH side and see if that cam jumped a tooth, it does happen. Once compression gets by 80psi it won't run.
I have heard of this before - what causes it ?
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The timing chain tensioner looses it's oil or isn't pumped up soon enough. You get slack in chain and it jumps a tooth. RH side tensioner has a big cap just inside the cylinder on the block.
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This happened on my Norge, the symptoms were the motor would rev to about 5,500 and then just stall there. Still no idea how or when it happened. I bought the bike that way at an extreme discount with 800-900 miles if I remember.
Odd this would happen simultaneously with a failed fuel injector.
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ok, sod it !
checked right side for chain sprocket aligning at 6 o'clock at TDC - my straw in the spark plug hole rising up and down is moving freely, chain taught, sprocket aligns
checked left - tappets are not opening or closing at all when i turn the motor via the alternator bolt at front, no movement at all. chain is taught and spins round and my straw rises and falls but tappets dont move at all they are stuck on TDC as they measure 10 and 15 but wont open or shut - what has blown up
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ok, sod it !
checked right side for chain sprocket aligning at 6 o'clock at TDC - my straw in the spark plug hole rising up and down is moving freely, chain taught, sprocket aligns
checked left - tappets are not opening or closing at all when i turn the motor via the alternator bolt at front, no movement at all. chain is taught and spins round and my straw rises and falls but tappets dont move at all they are stuck on TDC as they measure 10 and 15 but wont open or shut - what has blown up
Something has gone wrong in the cam box. Timing chain and cam drive sprocket are turning but if the valves arn't moving the cam isn't being driven. I cant remember how the sprocket is fixed to the cam shaft from when I did the roller conversion on my Stelvio but I think it is keyed. Your are most likely going to have to drop the timing chain off the drive sprocket and pull it out and see why its not turning the cam shaft.
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I'm sure Jim will be along to tell you himself, but it appears that the rockers are not moving on the LH pot, but the chain is tight and turning.
Pin can be seen in place.
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Was the bike running properly prior to taking the tank off? How many miles had it run before the tank was off and any issues noted then of any sort?
Seems an odd coincidence, but may be worth running down, any wires got severely pinched when the tank was re-seated?
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Couldn't understand the non moving rockers. Went back to it and spotted that I hadn't refitted to bolt to hold the sprocket on the shaft :embarrassed:
Tightened it up and rockers moving, set it to TDC a low and behold the chain has jumped
I will do that tomorrow
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Things to think about.
The chain has probably stretched. Check the locator pin hasn't sheared in half.
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Things to think about.
The chain has probably stretched. Check the locator pin hasn't sheared in half.
+1 on this advice.
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Things to think about.
The chain has probably stretched. Check the locator pin hasn't sheared in half.
if you mean the pin n the sprocket it is sound
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Tried it again, turning over a but slower than usual but no start.
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Some of those symptoms could also be due to a flat battery, weak cranking, low Voltage = rough running
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Some of those symptoms could also be due to a flat battery, weak cranking, low Voltage = rough running
oh no it is not, the saga continues - the pin that holds the chain sprocket in place is loose, fell out when i took the sprocket off - i expect it should have been fixed on the shaft ? it is not broken but is out. i could push it back in but i expect the movement would wiggle it out and let the timing slip again
can someone confirm the pin is fixed on the shaft and not loose - I expect kiwi has answered that and a new shaft is required
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LOL, I should have read page 2 before I responded.
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+1 on this advice.
so, the pin is fixed on the shaft and non moveable ?
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so, the pin is fixed on the shaft and non moveable ?
No. It's not fixed.
The locator pin won't come out if the flinger plate is positioned correctly. That is, the flinger plate must prevent the pin from disengaging from the cam.
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right, so i have the pin - reinsert and position sprocket at TDC and add there longer plate correctly positioned, no need for new shaft the
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As long as the holes in the flinger plate don't line up with the pin, it won't come out.
You should also consider the possibility that there may be bent valves. I'm not saying that's definite, but one should be cautious.
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Started up easy, ticking over nicely. Took it for a short run - only prob is the old stuttering at slow etc is back because I have taken off the Finbau and still old map no unusual noises in tickover
Got home and now have a bloody oil leak on right side. Aaaaargh
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Finbau?? Enlighten me.
I'm happy you have solved your trouble BTW.
John Henry
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Finebau is a UK produced box to fool the ECU, much the same as the Fat Duc though a little more sophisticated.
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Oil leak was on the pipe attached to the finger cover
Map next
Thanks to all
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GREAT NEWS!! You will love the map. Be sure to set the valve lash per Roper/Beetle spec of .004" intake and .006 ex. The map is designed for this valve lash.