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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: whyrichard on June 15, 2020, 03:07:45 PM
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Hello Guzzi Peeps!!!!
I am super excited to get back on my 1000sp... Rode the thing cross country four times over the past twenty years, and now that my kids are slightly older I am rekindling my guzzi lust....!!!!
I need some advice...
So i haven't started my 1980 1000sp in two years.
I prepped it and made sure all was well, and I it started right up and idled perfectly.
However I pulled in the clutch (I thought), dropped it into 1st gear, and it lurched forward as if the clutch was stuck engaged.
This, despite the clutch feeling like it is disengaging... there is resistance at the clutch lever, however I realized that the clutch is not disengaging when I pull it in. When putting it into gear and pulling in the clutch, it won't roll.
Question for you wise guzzi lovers...
How can i get my clutch unstuck??? Hitting the side with a hammer??? How to free up a seized clutch? Am I due for a rebuild??
Any suggestions??? I am at about mechanic level... 2.5 of 10.
Thanks!
Richard
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I would try starting it in neutral , get her rolling ,down an incline would make it easier, then click it into first gear and ride around with the clutch lever pulled in until it breaks free. On and off with the throttle to shock it a bit. Sounds like the clutch plate has bonded to the flywheel, happens on my willis jeep I use only in the winter for a snowplow, sits all summer and this method always worked for me.
of course if the spines have rusted it maybe time for a looksee. The method above will do no harm if that's the case and may just break her loose.
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Other threads on this forum with many suggestions. Use the search function at top right, search "stuck clutch".
Not being snarky just so many suggestions available.
Brian
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Could be that the actuating rod has bored its way through the throwout bearing. You'd still feel some resistance but the rod has nothing to push against, and the clutch stays engaged ....
Lannis
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Most likely the plates have bonded together - a little dampness and next thing you know, they're stuck together.
Get it rolling either roll start or like lucian suggests. Never tried it that way - I'd be concerned about grinding the gears.
I had an old Volvo that did that a couple of times. Started it up in first and drove half a block with the clutch in before it broke loose. An old airhead did it once also, and I did the same thing to free it up.
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Anyone in the NYC area, specifically Queens, which may be able to give me a hand with this? I live in an urban area, so finding a place to ride around without the clutch is a little... precarious...
should I try the mineral oil trick? been only a year or two since I rode it...
thanks,
Richard
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could try starting it on the center stand and then apply the rear brake with the clutch pulled in.
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I've been told it's a strain on the UJoint running the bike on the center stand. A better idea would be rollers like for starting a race bike. Maybe wait till the middle of the night? Does traffic ever thin out there?
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Would letting the engine get hot help matters ? Might blow the coils in the process if at idle too long, so maybe keep a slightly higher RPM?
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I've been told it's a strain on the UJoint running the bike on the center stand. A better idea would be rollers like for starting a race bike. Maybe wait till the middle of the night? Does traffic ever thin out there?
Perhaps you could put it on the center stand and use a ratchet strap to raise the swing arm up to a normal angle, thus protecting the u joint, and then start her up in gear, with clutch lever pulled in and try giving it the rear brake as was mentioned. It won't provide as much shock to the clutch plates as riding it would but it's certainly worth a try.
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As I recall, the angle on the stand isn't good for it, but it's also the uneven firing driving the wheel with no rolling resistance. It can hammer the ujoint.
I don't know if it's ever been shown this actually harms the joints or whether it's conjecture. I only heard it as a possibility, and considering the cost of a ujoint and the trouble they can cause, I think I'll be as nice to mine as I can.
I got a project bike from Long Island that could have possibly been through hurricane Sandy (conjecture on my part since I have no history with the bike). The bike wasn't corroded or rusty and actually looked pretty decent. I got the engine running but determined the clutch was stuck. I started it up in gear and rode it up the driveway and back, putting a good load on it since it was uphill (not both ways). After the second time I was pretty sure it wouldn't break loose so crabbed it and discovered everything rusted together pretty badly. Aint no way that one was freeing up the normal way!!!
But yours will probably free up in a hundred or two feet. In first gear if you need to stop quickly, hitting the brakes hard will probably kill the engine - but if you've got a half block it should free up in that distance.
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Could be that the actuating rod has bored its way through the throwout bearing. You'd still feel some resistance but the rod has nothing to push against, and the clutch stays engaged ....
Lannis
How could this possibly happen when the bike sat unused for years? :shocked:
The friction plates are stuck to the pressure plate and intermediate plate. WFO in 2nd gear with the clutch handle pulled in will break them loose.
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The pushrod didn't bore a hole in the cup at the other end. It's been stated the clutch feels totally normal, it just doesn't disengage. There wouldn't be any (or much) resistance at the lever if the rod wasn't pushing on anything.
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May I suggest a few things.
1) I have read about using mineral spirits and filling the bell housing to clean a clutch. Maybe let it soak and it will free up. Do a search on how to do it here.
2) Put front wheel up against a substantial wall. Put bike on center stand and again put up against wall. Start bike, pull clutch and put in first, step on rear brake and add enough gas to keep it from stalling while keeping the clutch lever pulled in. Add more gas and brake as you feel safe with. Maybe try this after cleaning and draining the mineral spirits.
2a) EDIT. IMHO.....You do not want to just let the bike idle in gear with the rear wheel spinning. That would be hard on the drive train. But....with the rear brake on that would IMHO act like the bike was on a road, maybe even an incline. ALSO, if it does not free up within a few moments, I would give up on this idea.
2b) Leave bike off center stand and against a substantial wall. Start and pull clutch and kick into first. This will either free it, break something or do the wickedest burn down since Bike Week! :evil: It may help if you try this one to have a few friends over with their phone in one hand with their finger on 911 and the other hand with a cold beer :boozing: :whip2: :evil: You may also want to make sure your health insurance is up to date :grin:
3) The safest method. Pull the trans and take apart the clutch. Replace what needs to be replaced.
Good luck, be safe,
Tom
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Sometimes there is a huge build up of clutch debris in the flywheel splines that causes it to hang up.
Or sometimes the splines get notched, but we're not going there today so we're not.
Quick and dirty fix for the debris...
You need;
About 500ml x3 of white spirit
Block hole at bottom, put 500ml in through timing bung replace bung or cover hole. The bungs get hard when they are cold so warm them up to make job easier.
Mind your fingers!!!!!
Run engine for a minute whilst pulling clutch in and out, drain and repeat, until fluid comes out clean of bottom weep hole. You have enough for three times.
You may need to give the weep hole a wee poke to help the debris through.
Cheers
Min
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It's just stuck. No amount of cleaning will help, IMHO. Riding it to free it up sounds worse than it actually is. <shrug>
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Rather than mucking around trying to free it up with soaking or anything else, if you can't roll it out on the street, load it up on the PU or a trailer and take it to some open road where you can ride it. Then ride it home.
It's not a big deal. Really!
Just sitting for a while didn't accumulate much rust, not like getting dunked in the ocean, but enough to stick the plates. They'll come apart with a little bit of torque as suggested.
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Rather than mucking around trying to free it up with soaking or anything else, if you can't roll it out on the street, load it up on the PU or a trailer and take it to some open road where you can ride it. Then ride it home.
It's not a big deal. Really!
Just sitting for a while didn't accumulate much rust, not like getting dunked in the ocean, but enough to stick the plates. They'll come apart with a little bit of torque as suggested.
He's in Queens! Problem being is that there just ain't any open road on Long Guy Land...
Larry
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Put it in 5 th gear engine off....pull in clutch lever and rock it foward and backward.....it will become unstuck shortly....
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Put it in 5 th gear engine off....pull in clutch lever and rock it foward and backward.....it will become unstuck shortly....
I would certainly give that a try if I couldn't ride it.
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Sounds like a good strategy to me too.
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Hey,
I tried the 5th gear idea and i was super optimistic, but alas no dice...
I may try to brave the city streets with the bike in gear and trying to free up the plates... any other suggestions???
thanks so much,
Richard
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Hey,
I tried the 5th gear idea and i was super optimistic, but alas no dice...
I may try to brave the city streets with the bike in gear and trying to free up the plates... any other suggestions???
thanks so much,
Richard
Do it at night when there's no less traffic. :evil:
And maybe have a trusted person driving a car out in front of you? Just make sure they're far enough in front...
FWIW I've actually used the second gear, clutch handle pulled in and WFO throttle method but it was not on a busy street. Make sure the motor is turning at least 4K before whacking the throttle open. Be careful!
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You know, rocking it in first makes more sense now that I think of it. In fifth it's too easy to rotate the crank. That's how I set valves and ignition - in fifth. In first you'll have a tougher time rotating the crank, so more pressure applied to the clutch plates.
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Try the mid gears. My LMIII would break free somewhere on 2nd or 3rd, that was on Oahu's Windward side when I lived at the base of the Koolau's. I lived on a hill that helped with bump starting a motorcycle.
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You guys are all awesome. I forgot how much I love the Guzzi boards....
SOOOOOOO.... I took it out and had a friend push start me, and I could get around well enough in 1st gear until I made it to a large empty parking lot...
And then I ran around in circles, 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd gear, getting a good clip and going wide open up to a decent clip.... BUT NO UNSTUCK CLUTCH! I was happy to fly on the SP again but was really disappointed it did not work the clutch loose.
I did this for about 15 minutes, until my hand got tired from holding the clutch in and I started to get a bit dizzy....
So, what do you all think is next? Should I do it again??? Should I do the trick with the mineral spirits??
I did the rocking back and forth when parked in 5th gear, as well as 1st gear initially... but should it have been 1st gear? was confused about the earlier message...
thank you all for your help and suggestions,
Richard
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Dang! Sounds like it needs to come apart.
Larry
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Where are you at?
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I am in Sunnyside Queens. NYC....
If it indeed needs to come apart, any recommendations??? The place I take my guzzi to in Brooklyn is soooo expensive....
thanks,
r
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High humidity area. :undecided:
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I'd try the mineral spirits first before a complete tear-down. My '80 SP has been sitting for awhile in Phoenix. I don't think the clutch is stuck together. Periodically it's operated. Yours might have to be done again with the mineral spirits wash. You'll have to drill a drain hole in the bottom of the clutch area NOT the transmission. If you're not sure don't do it. :tongue: Replacing the clutch will take time and you have to crab the frame.
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Low speed, on and off the throttle would give the most force to break it loose.
Yeah, it does seem the transmission needs to come out. Hope the splines and clutch plates are good.
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You guys are all awesome. I forgot how much I love the Guzzi boards....
SOOOOOOO.... I took it out and had a friend push start me, and I could get around well enough in 1st gear until I made it to a large empty parking lot...
And then I ran around in circles, 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd gear, getting a good clip and going wide open up to a decent clip.... BUT NO UNSTUCK CLUTCH! I was happy to fly on the SP again but was really disappointed it did not work the clutch loose.
I did this for about 15 minutes, until my hand got tired from holding the clutch in and I started to get a bit dizzy....
So, what do you all think is next? Should I do it again??? Should I do the trick with the mineral spirits??
I did the rocking back and forth when parked in 5th gear, as well as 1st gear initially... but should it have been 1st gear? was confused about the earlier message...
thank you all for your help and suggestions,
Richard
I would do it again, but you need some room. You say you were going around in circles? You need bursts of very hard acceleration (preferably in 3rd or higher gear*) and then the throttle cut completely off. The idea being that you torque the plates first in one direction, then the other. So you need to be going in a straight line. Yes, you're going to look like a freaking maniac to the casual observer. Thoroughly warm up the engine and clutch/transmission with less aggressive riding -at least 15-20 minutes before hammering the throttle. Tape the clutch to the handle bar.
Unfortunately, this doesn't always work. But it's your best bet before dismantling, so be patient...
*Use a higher gear because A: you can hold the throttle open longer and the bike is easier to control when you nail the throttle in a higher gear and B: when off throttle, the momentum of you and the bike is multiplied by the high gear to "twist" the clutch plates loose with more torque.
That's why if you use the "rock it back and forth with engine off" method, you use 5th gear. You have to think about torque from the perspective of the wheel attempting to free the clutch. In normal use, high gear allows the engine to spin the wheels with the most speed but lowest torque multiplication. But from the rear wheel's point of view, the highest gear allows the wheel to spin the engine/clutch with the least speed, but the highest torque.
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Sorry to hear it's not working yet but happy to hear you weren't hurt trying! :thumb:
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Question, as I am considering options....
On my 40 year old guzzi, considering it is likely on its original clutch (only 70K, despite my 4 cross country trips... kids) do you think I should plan a larger overhaul on the bike?
Is it possible to take apart the clutch and address this problem without disturbing too much else? It is likely that if it requires a bunch of dismantling, it will need a bunch of new cables / parts / etc....
or can it be fixed without too much trouble?
thanks,
Richard
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Question, as I am considering options....
On my 40 year old guzzi, considering it is likely on its original clutch (only 70K, despite my 4 cross country trips... kids) do you think I should plan a larger overhaul on the bike?
Is it possible to take apart the clutch and address this problem without disturbing too much else? It is likely that if it requires a bunch of dismantling, it will need a bunch of new cables / parts / etc....
or can it be fixed without too much trouble?
thanks,
Richard
You don't have to replace other parts when you're getting to the clutch, but you have to split the motorcycle completely in two. Most people find that once they've gone to all that trouble, it makes sense to replace the engine rear main seal if it's been in there a long time, and replace the transmission front seal, as well as the wear parts of the clutch, flywheel, flywheel bolts, etc.
Lannis
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I should probably do all of that work too....
Question for you wise guzzi peeps... my local mechanic is super expensive... what would be the most cost effective way for me to do this work? Considering I am not super equipped to do this job myself?
I'll try push start 5th gear take 2 in coming weeks...
Thanks all,
richard
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Ship your bike to Charlie. Pay him then a fly-n-ride back home.
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Okay, If I was you with few resources...
1 Pull the timing plug
2 Spray WD40 all over everything in there, rotate-repeat
3 select 2nd or 3rd gear
4 Hold clutch lever in and rock it forward and reverse con gusto
5 The WD40 will evaporate, just take it easy for a while
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Worth a try.
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This might be a great opportunity to get into a deeper level of maintenance. The Guzzi clutch is pretty simple, and if you don’t open up the transmission the job doesn’t require a lot of specialized tools. You can give your bike a rose and “take it to the next level.”
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Contaminate the clutch lining with OIL? Just say no to WD40.
I have two bikes I am slowly returning to service. I hope the clutches aren't stuck but once they run the transmissions are coming out for a teardown to check for any rust.
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WD 40 is not a lubricant. It's intended as a cleaner but if in doubt use mineral spirits or kerosene and a spray bottle. You need a drain hole.
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Take her apart and do it right, throw a U-joint support bearing at it , perhaps service the joint as well. May as well look into replacing seals too, it is basic maintenance on a 40 year old machine, give it some love,my 2 cents. DonG
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I should probably do all of that work too....
Question for you wise guzzi peeps... my local mechanic is super expensive... what would be the most cost effective way for me to do this work?
Are you talking about Moto Borgotaro?
Do you have a garage to do this work? If so, and you are handy it can be done provided you are willing to buy a few tools and ask a lot of questions. If you are going to do this next month, I will probably be in town and can give you a hand or at least point and tell you what to do. Some people like to crab the frame but I personally like to just remove the upper half and set it aside leaving the engine and transmission as one piece which isn't too hard on this age of Tonti framed bikes.
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WD 40 is not a lubricant. It's intended as a cleaner but if in doubt use mineral spirits or kerosene and a spray bottle. You need a drain hole.
There is a drain hole so there is
Cheers
Min
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Okay, If I was you with few resources...
1 Pull the timing plug
2 Spray WD40 all over everything in there, rotate-repeat
3 select 2nd or 3rd gear
4 Hold clutch lever in and rock it forward and reverse con gusto
5 The WD40 will evaporate, just take it easy for a while
Have you actually done this? With positive results?
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There is a drain hole so there is
Cheers
Min
In the clutch area. There wasn't on mine but then again it is Moto Guzzi.
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I am with Scout63 and Don G. I would bet you could do what needs to be done if you have a place to work and a few extra hands on occasion. Having someone do the work for you will cost more than the bike is worth in parts and labor. Unless you have good Gizzi guy around willing to shepard you through and help out. All the parts you will need are available and there is more than enough folks here on the list with all of the answers you will need. This is a time that comes to most owners of old Guzzis. Take that next step in owner maintenance or either sink a lot of money into the old horse or sell it.
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So what?
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Quote from: Tom on June 25, 2020, 02:54:40 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=106209.msg1685020#msg1685020)WD 40 is not a lubricant. It's intended as a cleaner but if in doubt use mineral spirits or kerosene and a spray bottle. You need a drain hole.
WD 40 is a water dispersant. It was created to prevent corrosion on Atlas rockets. It is no more a cleaner than bearing grease.
And it will lubricate a bit for a bit.
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Wait....water is not a contaminant?? It doesn't need to be dispersed?? Flushed out??? Cleaned out??? :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I had this happen on a Honda 50 years ago. The bike had been broken through the ice and sunk in 4 feet of water.
the guy drug it out and removed the plugs and kicked it over to squirt the water out the spark plug holes. Replaced the now dry plugs and started it up and drove it about 7 miles to the shop. He put it in a corner and let it sit for 3 months. I bought it from him and dropped the pan and cleaned the mud and water out. Put the pan back on , oil in it. Clutch wouldn't disengage. I engine wouldn't turn over either. I put it in low gear and holding the clutch lever, rocked it back and forth with lots of liquid wrench in each cylinder,
until the piston rings finally let go and then with screeching sounds began to go up and down. I then started it in neutral and rolled it until it was in 2nd gear. then riding it around the parking lot I held the clutch open and gave full throttle, no change. I slowed down and went into third gear and gave full throttle. With a terrible noise the clutch broke free and was working again. I took it back in the shop and changed the oil again. I rode it for another year with only bit of smoke from the exhaust and no further damage.
Those old 305s were some tough pieces of work.
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Was it the scrambler, dream or superhawk? Not that it makes any difference.
The big difference is the Honda has a wet clutch - bathed in the sump in engine oil while the guzzi clutch is dry and exposed to the air.
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I am with Scout63 and Don G. I would bet you could do what needs to be done if you have a place to work and a few extra hands on occasion. Having someone do the work for you will cost more than the bike is worth in parts and labor. Unless you have good Gizzi guy around willing to shepard you through and help out. All the parts you will need are available and there is more than enough folks here on the list with all of the answers you will need. This is a time that comes to most owners of old Guzzis. Take that next step in owner maintenance or either sink a lot of money into the old horse or sell it.
yeah, this math always makes me a little sad...
i would love to take the time to take it apart and learn how to do it myself, but with two young kids and no good space to do it I am afraid it would be endless...
and, frankly, the bike to me is priceless... one of those hallowed objects in my life... i've owned it for twenty years and rode it cross country four times... truely a mythical machine for me...
considering storing it until i have better funds in a year or so, and then doing a repaint and a restore as well as fixing all the fundamentals... sound like a good plan?
I have a griso to borrow in the meantime....
r.
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sound like a good plan?
Yep. You really can't afford to pay someone to do what you are talking about. You would have new bike money in it. As a labor of love, however, especially as you *are* in love with it..
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Store it till you have the funds to pay someone to fix it. I won't get better delaying it.
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Fixing up old bikes can be a hoot and then? I bought a 1965 Yamaha San Bernadino for more money than it was worth. It looked good in the pictures on line but in person, not so much. So I went ahead and painted it and got it in running condition.It is now a great 20' bike, looks good from 20' but don't get too much closer. One of the reasons I bought it was that it was almost identical to my first bike. I put 17,000 miles on that one but this one 170 will be pushing it. What a POS, I can't be;ieve some of the crap we rode back in those days. I will be selling it for whatever I can get for it which I will put toward a new V7. It won't be near what I have in it, new tires, battery, cables and all kinds of small bits. On a further note I thought I would use it to run errands around town, etc. It is not fun to ride and at times dangerous because it is so small and can't keep up with the crazy traffic out there now. Hopefully someone else wants to relive the old days and I can recover some of my costs. It was fun rebuilding it, my wife thought it would die in pieces but it kept me busy this winter.
kk
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Fixing up old bikes can be a hoot and then? I bought a 1965 Yamaha San Bernadino for more money than it was worth.
I had many of the old Yamahas and remember the Twin Jets and Big Bear Scramblers and Catalinas but I don't know the "San Bernardino". What size and kind of bike was it?
Lannis
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Should I do the trick with the mineral spirits??
I'd keep playing the hand you're dealt right now, you love the bike, but tearing it down and fixing it don't fit in; why not let time and mineral spirits work for you, :evil:
A while back, my greatest guzzi mcgyver fix was curing the slipping clutch on my new to me CalVin,caused by too much oil in the tranny case by the po.
I realize your clutch problem is the opposite of mine, but the surface and material involved is the same.
A real good drenching and soaking of the plates with mineral spirits with the clutch lever tied in; and then if you can get to a parking lot and be savage with the rear brake, throttle on/off etc.
If possible bring some mineral spirits with you to fill it up at the parking lot for the good old college try, just in case it doesn't break loose the first time :thumb:
I had to be savage with my clutch, fanning it at speed etc to get it cleaned and working good, it's worked great for 3 years.
I don't envy you being faced with this challenge in NY traffic, that sucks :undecided:
Be careful on that Griso, grabbing a handful of throttle will be a bit more responsive than your SP.
No matter how it plays out for you, good luck with it.
Kelly
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:huh:
I had many of the old Yamahas and remember the Twin Jets and Big Bear Scramblers and Catalinas but I don't know the "San Bernardino". What size and kind of bike was it?
Lannis
It is a 125cc single cylinder bike. It is a street going bike with a stamped steel "frame" or body. The model is: YA6. It was't too popular. It is similar to my first bike, an 80cc Trailmaster. I also had a Catalina back in the day, and then moved on to BMWs. Now a proud Guzzimowner.
kk
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:huh:
It is a 125cc single cylinder bike. It is a street going bike with a stamped steel "frame" or body. The model is: YA6. It was't too popular. It is similar to my first bike, an 80cc Trailmaster. I also had a Catalina back in the day, and then moved on to BMWs. Now a proud Guzzimowner.
kk
Gotcha! I remember the bike, just not the name. Those are real classics and got an awful lot of people into motorcycling when I were but a lad ... !!
Lannis