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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: TN Mark on June 16, 2020, 10:11:04 PM

Title: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 16, 2020, 10:11:04 PM
I knew about many of their bikes being make in Thailand. But some of the other information was a surprise. With so many new layoffs being done in the UK and Triumph moving the rest of their manufacturing to Thailand, Triumph is quickly becoming even less British. Bummer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofIHT4pOILo
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: oldbike54 on June 16, 2020, 10:24:25 PM
 Triumph has factories in Thailand , not Taiwan .

 Dusty
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 16, 2020, 10:42:59 PM
Sounds like it's all moved their now. I agree with him on the false history claims, same as with Polaris Indian.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: dxhall on June 16, 2020, 10:56:24 PM
He said that the factory is in Thailand, but that many electrical components are made in Taiwan.

 I was surprised by what he said - I thought that at least some of the bikes were still made (or maybe just assembled) in the UK.  He says not so.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: oldbike54 on June 16, 2020, 11:10:40 PM
Sounds like it's all moved their now. I agree with him on the false history claims, same as with Polaris Indian.

 Welcome to the new business model . When Polaris announced they were going with the Indian badged models exclusively we had a spirited discussion here , 'twas me who was amused at the way that Polaris was creating a false legacy , hell , the original company was the Hendee Motocycle company that built Indian Motocycles , no R . No one seemed to care , the entire discussion just faded away .

 I did however come up with a good name for the E bike that Polaris announced but we haven'r seen yet.

                                                             "The PlugIndian" .

 That has found it's way back to me from several places , folks claiming their brother or cousin or boss came up with the name . Nope, it spread from here to ADVrider first , then on to other social media , but it originated here . So far Polaris hasn't seen fit to send a check .

 Dusty
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 16, 2020, 11:33:03 PM
The PlugIndian, that's fantastic!

I follow a bit about what Polaris is doing with Indian as some on the Victory forums have one. But so far Polaris has yet to have an original design with the brand.

1st series - copied decades old design cues (expected)
2nd series - copied H-D design cues (not expected)
3rd series - used the Challenger motor designed for the 2018 Victory and still using H-D design cues (expected)

Polaris bought Brammo a few years ago and rebadged it as a Victory for crazy money. Perhaps the new PlugIndian is another redesign of the Brammo/Victory rebadge. But I have a look at it none the less.

I continue to be impressed that Moto Guzzis are still being assembled at the original factory. Many owners over the decades but still a continuous lineage. I greatly admire that.

Forza Moto Guzzi
 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: MMRanch on June 16, 2020, 11:37:11 PM
It seems Triumph's biggest problem is the Royal Enfield Interceptor .    Along with going liquid cooled that is , they should have just done the oil cooler thing and left the anti-freeze to the cars.
So
If the Interceptor had mag/tubeless tires , I'd have one now.   Can't say the same about any of the Triumphs ...   :smiley:
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Denis on June 17, 2020, 06:44:05 AM
But so far Polaris has yet to have an original design with the brand.


Scout? It doesn't look like anything anyone else offers.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 17, 2020, 11:49:54 AM
The Victory Octane was shown at a Victory dealers meeting, complete and running. It was the answer to their years long entry level bike requests. A few months later the Victory Octane was shown at Sturgis with new badging and a different rear suspension angle as the Indian Scout. A 100% total ripoff from the Polaris Victory side of the business. This was well before Victory was shut down. The ‘Indian’ Challenger motor, in an updated Victory Cross Country was also shown to dealers in 2016 as the updated 2018 Victory Cross Country. That engine, designed and patented by Polaris under Victory Motorcycles, then came out as the latest and greatest new motor in a Polaris Indian Challenger. The motor is excellent as is the support of it from Polaris.

Nothing on the Scout except the name on the tank says it belongs anywhere in the Polaris Indian lineup.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: LowRyter on June 17, 2020, 12:07:49 PM
how did this Triumph stuff become an Indian thing?
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: JJ on June 17, 2020, 12:12:57 PM
how did this Triumph stuff become an Indian thing?

 :laugh: :grin: :wink: (or a Victory thing!)  :rolleyes: :shocked: :huh:  :laugh: :grin: :laugh: :grin:

"Extinct" since 2017".... :laugh: :grin: :wink:


(https://i.ibb.co/QnTxmh4/Moby-Dick-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QnTxmh4)

(https://i.ibb.co/rQFCbQc/moby-DICK.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rQFCbQc)

(https://i.ibb.co/dt6swRK/Moby-Dick-Illustration-xl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dt6swRK)

(https://i.ibb.co/PtsT7j0/md-234.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PtsT7j0)

(https://i.ibb.co/5TXKx07/IMG-0948.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TXKx07)
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Bert Remington on June 17, 2020, 12:52:24 PM
MMRanch -- you may place your I650 order as your wheels and tires are available now: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=28166.msg321619#msg321619  :laugh:

(https://i.ibb.co/S3PHHV0/I650-Wheel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S3PHHV0)

(https://i.ibb.co/CVXvC8Q/I650-Tire.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CVXvC8Q)
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on June 17, 2020, 12:59:29 PM
 Triumph Speed Twin in red with the euro taillight assembly and the Vance & Hines pipes is the sexiest new bike on the market today, I dont care if it's made in India, Thailand, or timbuktoo!
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: JJ on June 17, 2020, 02:44:07 PM
Triumph Speed Twin in red with the euro taillight assembly and the Vance & Hines pipes is the sexiest new bike on the market today, I dont care if it's made in India, Thailand, or timbuktoo!


(https://i.ibb.co/dWhQDTL/Screen-Shot-2020-06-17-at-12-42-47-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/dWhQDTL)
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: inditx on June 17, 2020, 03:01:25 PM
Uh with all due respect, to each his own but that’s a no from me on the Speed Twin.
Looks like they forgot part of the back fender and I’d wind up hanging my leg on the turn signals/brake light. Looks like the SCR950 Yamaha back end with a smaller fender.
imho fwiw,
inditx
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 17, 2020, 03:17:47 PM
Triumph Speed Twin in red with the euro taillight assembly and the Vance & Hines pipes is the sexiest new bike on the market today, I dont care if it's made in India, Thailand, or timbuktoo!

Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?


Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: kidsmoke on June 17, 2020, 03:31:38 PM
Anecdotal as it's one single data point in world going insane, but there's a brand new Triumph dealership in downtown Indianapolis. Opened in January. They sold 17 new 2020's in the month of May.

And this was their lot last Saturday....

(https://i.imgur.com/F3mjzHk.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/a7az1ys.png)

FWIW

Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: ozarquebus on June 17, 2020, 04:01:58 PM
That Cal II? looks great in Olive Drab
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: LowRyter on June 17, 2020, 04:08:41 PM
I tired to watch and hear this and just gave up.  I really don't buy into the whole notion that Bloor denied and then reclaimed Triumph heritage. I think he was pretty upfront that he was building a update to the original.  And he pretty well did.  He stayed honest to the two and three cylinder history and continued the tradition of sporting Brit bikes.  The bikes are unique and won't be confused with any other brand or label.

Given Brexit, international competition, the economic recession and -, no doubt the business model will be under pressure.  By all accounts the bikes are decent machines and many long time Triumph riders like the new products.  I say, "new" but they've been going at it for nearly 30 years now. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: kidsmoke on June 17, 2020, 04:10:30 PM
That Cal II? looks great in Olive Drab

'02 California Stone
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: JJ on June 17, 2020, 05:20:49 PM
That Cal II? looks great in Olive Drab

Agreed!  That's one nice looking Guzzi!! :thumb: :cool: :smiley:


(https://i.ibb.co/tXG9dy2/Screen-Shot-2020-06-17-at-3-19-41-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/tXG9dy2)
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: rss29 on June 17, 2020, 05:37:08 PM
Thailand appears to have top notch manufacturing. I have a Triumph and Kawasaki in my garage, both Thailand-built and purchased new. Both have been flawless with not so much as a loose bolt between the two. I would have no problem buying an Italian bike not assembled in Italy.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Canada72 on June 17, 2020, 05:51:07 PM
I second the desirability of the Speed Twin, but I’ll take mine in black, with a set of more aesthetically pleasing pipes. 😍
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Kev m on June 17, 2020, 06:28:35 PM
The Victory Octane was shown at a Victory dealers meeting, complete and running. It was the answer to their years long entry level bike requests. A few months later the Victory Octane was shown at Sturgis with new badging and a different rear suspension angle as the Indian Scout. A 100% total ripoff from the Polaris Victory side of the business. This was well before Victory was shut down. The ‘Indian’ Challenger motor, in an updated Victory Cross Country was also shown to dealers in 2016 as the updated 2018 Victory Cross Country. That engine, designed and patented by Polaris under Victory Motorcycles, then came out as the latest and greatest new motor in a Polaris Indian Challenger. The motor is excellent as is the support of it from Polaris.

Nothing on the Scout except the name on the tank says it belongs anywhere in the Polaris Indian lineup.

Point of order. To say "Indian" ripped off "Victory" is the short bus equivalent of claiming GMC ripped off Chevy.

I think the point is Polaris created some original designs and are effectively marketing them with a visual tie to a formerly dormant brand. Looks and sounds good to me.

I feel similarly about Triumph.

I would prefer a Triumph made in Britain because I'm sentimental. The same with a Harley from York and a Guzzi from Mandello, but I'm not sure it should be a deal breaker.

I didn't always feel this way.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: ohiorider on June 17, 2020, 07:01:16 PM
It's not like the 'new' Triumph hasn't been building bikes in Thailand for years.  I think they opened their first factory there in 2000 or 2001, recent history to us old dudes, but a lifetime to some of the new riders.

Bob
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: oldbike54 on June 17, 2020, 07:18:26 PM
Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?

 If the new factory in Thailand had more than one greasepot and could get all of the thrustwashers in the right place , some of us might welcome the move .

 Dusty
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: bad Chad on June 17, 2020, 07:29:41 PM
Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?

Great question Mark!
For me, yes.  Would it be a deal breaker, not necessarily, but a real part of the attraction for me is that most Guzzi have and continue to come through the same factory gates for a 100 years.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 17, 2020, 09:41:06 PM
Great question Mark!
For me, yes.  Would it be a deal breaker, not necessarily, but a real part of the attraction for me is that most Guzzi have and continue to come through the same factory gates for a 100 years.

I agree with you. At some point, brand continuity either matters to people or it doesn’t. Some here say it doesn’t matter where they’re made. But they’re on a single brand forum with bikes being assembled at the same location for nearly 100 years. If Guzzi production was moved to China, it would matter to some and not to others.

The point of the man in the original video is that Triumph laid off 20% of their workforce, many in Britain and they moved the rest of their production to Thailand. The person in the video was upset about what he called the ‘new’ Triumph claiming a ‘false history’. I can see his point, and listed Polaris Indian as doing the same. I listed factual historical data on how Polaris would be guilty of the same ‘history’ claims the man in the video complained of. At least Polaris had some great designs to take from Victory to use on Indian.

I’m glad that both Triumph and Indian were brought back and that they both make great motorcycles.

At this point I’m thankful Piaggio keeps Moto Guzzi going. Sure the bikes need improved build quality and consistency. That they still don’t grease bearings like has been mentioned is simply beyond ridiculous. But as long as they’re still coming out with new models there’s hope of better days to come.

Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: huub on June 18, 2020, 12:21:28 AM
with brexit it makes no sense to keep production in the UK ,
if you are going to pay import taxes to import bikes to your main markets , you might as well produce them in a low cost country.
expect to see more business leaving the UK,
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: poorBob on June 18, 2020, 12:33:23 AM
I've got over 80k miles on my made in England Triumph and will not buy a Thai-rumph.

I would not buy a Moto Guzzi that was made in Thailand, either.

Same thing for Aprilia - gotta be Noale to be genuine.

I grew up on Asian bikes and have owned several - great bikes. I like having no misconception about origin of bike. I knew where my Suzukis came from just like I know where my Guzzi came from. No sleight of hand or misdirection.

I've had several Volkswagens but they've all been made in Germany. I don't think I'm a bigot, just a purist.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Andy1 on June 18, 2020, 01:39:49 AM
To me, where the bike is designed is more relevant than where it was assembled.
A UK designed bike will (hopefully) be designed to work on UK roads - an American designed bike might work best on American roads, which can be a very different environment.

Perhaps we like Italian bikes as they are designed for Italian roads - from switchback mountain passes to motorways.

Which reminds me, where is the Royal Enfield test / design facility?  Close to the old UK Triumph factory in UK.

AndyB

Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on June 18, 2020, 06:19:29 AM
with brexit it makes no sense to keep production in the UK ,
if you are going to pay import taxes to import bikes to your main markets , you might as well produce them in a low cost country.
expect to see more business leaving the UK,

yep
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on June 18, 2020, 06:20:45 AM
Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?

It wouldnt keep me from buying one, but it would be sad to see the factory go idle.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Joliet Jim on June 18, 2020, 07:37:44 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/9psbk4w/triumph.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9psbk4w)


I don't know, to me it's not a British or Italian bike unless it's made in Britain or Italy. Someday I'll have the 75 Triumph Norton Trident up and running again and have a pure British bike with all it's warts (we'll ignore origin of replacement parts :) )

Indians are cool, but I would have preferred they kept Victory going with less radical designs. It's not an Indian.


Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Bpreynolds2 on June 18, 2020, 07:40:02 AM
Dealers are dropping them like Guzzi and they are laying folks off.  Yes, Triumph is struggling right now and no one as of yet in this thread has touched on the single real reason.  Sales.  And why are they not selling as many bikes, or even at least selling to expectations?  Prices.  For instance, let’s take that lovely Speed Twin mentioned earlier.  MSRP 12.1k, plus dealer fees, taxes, etc.  You could say the Griso was a 12k dollar bike too on dealer floors, but they rarely sold at that price and Guzzi is a company with a long history of learning to absorb that kind of loss again and again and again on MSRP prices.  Maybe you’d like a fantastic Street Triple RS at 12.5k?  Maybe an admittedly lovely T100 - again, over 10k even before otd markups, this when you can go get - well, I’m biased - a more desirable V7 or V9 for thousands less.  The Bonnie used to be their butter to bread bike, offering a lot of motorcycle for the money; however, now they want you to pay $$$ for that kind of thing.  To me, Triumph is a company that made it’s recent history on bang for buck bikes like the late 90s, early to mid ‘00s Bonnie and the original Street Triple (back when it was undercutting competition in terms of prices for performance).  From say, mid ‘00s to 2020 Triumph has created some incredible bikes but they’ve also tried to reposition themselves as a premium brand, this both in prices and what they demand from their dealers.  Overall, I don’t think the market has greatly responded to them as such. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: pebra on June 18, 2020, 08:30:32 AM
It wouldnt keep me from buying one, but it would be sad to see the factory go idle.

Oh, it would make for wonderful second homes, with a great history! 😎

Wouldn't mind a holiday flat in Mandello myself.  I'd keep a Griso in the garage. Just a short walk down to the beautiful Lago.
If it should come to it, wouldn't you make the best out of it?


Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: AH Fan on June 18, 2020, 08:37:24 AM
I've got over 80k miles on my made in England Triumph and will not buy a Thai-rumph.

I would not buy a Moto Guzzi that was made in Thailand, either.

Same thing for Aprilia - gotta be Noale to be genuine.

I grew up on Asian bikes and have owned several - great bikes. I like having no misconception about origin of bike. I knew where my Suzukis came from just like I know where my Guzzi came from. No sleight of hand or misdirection.

I've had several Volkswagens but they've all been made in Germany. I don't think I'm a bigot, just a purist. 



 :thumb:
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: drw916 on June 18, 2020, 11:59:11 AM
I never considered British workmanship as a real selling attribute.  I have had 2 Triumphs to date that were made in Thailand and both have been flawless.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 18, 2020, 12:13:28 PM
I knew about many of their bikes being make in Thailand. But some of the other information was a surprise. With so many new layoffs being done in the UK and Triumph moving the rest of their manufacturing to Thailand, Triumph is quickly becoming even less British. Bummer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofIHT4pOILo

and yet, they are still asking a premium price. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: inditx on June 18, 2020, 04:25:17 PM
Dealers are dropping them like Guzzi and they are laying folks off.  Yes, Triumph is struggling right now and no one as of yet in this thread has touched on the single real reason.  Sales.  And why are they not selling as many bikes, or even at least selling to expectations?  Prices.  For instance, let’s take that lovely Speed Twin mentioned earlier.  MSRP 12.1k, plus dealer fees, taxes, etc.  You could say the Griso was a 12k dollar bike too on dealer floors, but they rarely sold at that price and Guzzi is a company with a long history of learning to absorb that kind of loss again and again and again on MSRP prices.  Maybe you’d like a fantastic Street Triple RS at 12.5k?  Maybe an admittedly lovely T100 - again, over 10k even before otd markups, this when you can go get - well, I’m biased - a more desirable V7 or V9 for thousands less.  The Bonnie used to be their butter to bread bike, offering a lot of motorcycle for the money; however, now they want you to pay $$$ for that kind of thing.  To me, Triumph is a company that made it’s recent history on bang for buck bikes like the late 90s, early to mid ‘00s Bonnie and the original Street Triple (back when it was undercutting competition in terms of prices for performance).  From say, mid ‘00s to 2020 Triumph has created some incredible bikes but they’ve also tried to reposition themselves as a premium brand, this both in prices and what they demand from their dealers.  Overall, I don’t think the market has greatly responded to them as such.

This right here.
inditx
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: geoff in almonte on June 18, 2020, 07:18:45 PM
You really think that the drop in sales is because of the price?   It has nothing to do with the - thing?

I haven't done any comparison shopping, but I did recently purchase a 2020 Triumph T120 Diamond.  MSRP was $14,500 CDN.  With a GIVI screen, V&H cans, luggage rack and pannier supports, and a Corbin G&L saddle - all taxes, fees, etc, included and out the door with a tank of gas for $18,500.  That's for a 1200cc, 84HP motorcycle. In US funds that's about $12,000.  Personally, I dont think it was overpriced.

I dont know how that compares with the actual cost of a V7 (700cc) or V9 (850cc) but we all know that they dont have the power that the Bonnie offers.  And in my experience, the Triumph dealership network is far superior to the next to invisible Guzzi dealers.

I have been riding for over 50 years and riding Guzzis for at least half of that.

Of course (and obviously) YMMV

Cheers!

G



Dealers are dropping them like Guzzi and they are laying folks off.  Yes, Triumph is struggling right now and no one as of yet in this thread has touched on the single real reason.  Sales.  And why are they not selling as many bikes, or even at least selling to expectations?  Prices.  For instance, let’s take that lovely Speed Twin mentioned earlier.  MSRP 12.1k, plus dealer fees, taxes, etc.  You could say the Griso was a 12k dollar bike too on dealer floors, but they rarely sold at that price and Guzzi is a company with a long history of learning to absorb that kind of loss again and again and again on MSRP prices.  Maybe you’d like a fantastic Street Triple RS at 12.5k?  Maybe an admittedly lovely T100 - again, over 10k even before otd markups, this when you can go get - well, I’m biased - a more desirable V7 or V9 for thousands less.  The Bonnie used to be their butter to bread bike, offering a lot of motorcycle for the money; however, now they want you to pay $$$ for that kind of thing.  To me, Triumph is a company that made it’s recent history on bang for buck bikes like the late 90s, early to mid ‘00s Bonnie and the original Street Triple (back when it was undercutting competition in terms of prices for performance).  From say, mid ‘00s to 2020 Triumph has created some incredible bikes but they’ve also tried to reposition themselves as a premium brand, this both in prices and what they demand from their dealers.  Overall, I don’t think the market has greatly responded to them as such.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Lannis on June 18, 2020, 08:30:03 PM
Speaking as someone who actually PAID the price, I can't agree that it's a price thing.   If it were, I probably wouldn't have bought one .... !

Lannis
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Seventy One on June 18, 2020, 11:03:08 PM
My '13 Triumph Tiger 800XC was far and away the biggest POS I've ever owned.

That was my first and last Triumph. I will never buy anything made in Thailand again. That bike was poorly designed and poorly assembled. In just three years and 42k miles, it was completely worn out and no longer reliable enough to leave town on.

Then there was the bad dealer and the non-existent customer support from Triumph.

I tried to trade it for a KLR but was unable to. Sold the bike (along with $900+ in accessories and spare parts) for $2,200. It was the single worst purchase I've ever made.

At least the Japanese take some pride in their work. I feel bad for Triumphs employees but not the company.

 

Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: MMRanch on June 19, 2020, 12:15:05 AM
  MMRanch -- you may place your I650 order as your wheels and tires are available now: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=28166.msg321619#msg321619   

Bert ,   At $1,000.00 ? it kind of takes the fun out of having them !   I might have to wait on the factory mag wheels ?    but thanks for pointing at them ,   My local dealer thinks it will be close to two years for the new US models  to have tubeless wheels.   

I like my Avon AM26's ...    :smiley:
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Two Checks on June 19, 2020, 03:52:54 AM
Where the bike is made has nothing to do with quality. Its the people running the factory. If they allow shoddy workmanship its the problem of the company.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 06:20:05 AM
You really think that the drop in sales is because of the price?   It has nothing to do with the - thing?

I haven't done any comparison shopping, but I did recently purchase a 2020 Triumph T120 Diamond.  MSRP was $14,500 CDN.  With a GIVI screen, V&H cans, luggage rack and pannier supports, and a Corbin G&L saddle - all taxes, fees, etc, included and out the door with a tank of gas for $18,500.  That's for a 1200cc, 84HP motorcycle. In US funds that's about $12,000.  Personally, I dont think it was overpriced.

I dont know how that compares with the actual cost of a V7 (700cc) or V9 (850cc) but we all know that they dont have the power that the Bonnie offers.  And in my experience, the Triumph dealership network is far superior to the next to invisible Guzzi dealers.

I have been riding for over 50 years and riding Guzzis for at least half of that.

Of course (and obviously) YMMV

Cheers!

G

How much of that power do you use on a daily basis?  Most people rarely hit the RPMs required to realize the Peak HP of larger displacement motorcycles.

1200cc for only 84HP?  That sure seams low for the displacement.  You could have bought a Suzuki GSX-S750 for $8000 or less because of sales, and have 112.6 HP.   :evil:

The bottom line is that if you are happy with it, and with the price you paid, that is all that matters.  I would love to have a new 1200 Scrambler with full Ohlins suspension, but for the money I would probably go with the Yamaha Tracer 900 GT if I were interested in going back to liquid cooled bikes. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: geoff in almonte on June 19, 2020, 07:10:25 AM
How much of that power do you use on a daily basis?  Most people rarely hit the RPMs required to realize the Peak HP of larger displacement motorcycles.

>> True dat.  But the Bonnie was built with the HT (High Torque) motor.  It makes it's power between 3500 and 6000 rpm. Redline around 7500.  At 3500rpm in fourth gear I am reading 100kph.  Roll the throttle on and the pull on the handlebars will make you smile and before you know it, you've touched the ton and need to shift.

1200cc for only 84HP?  That sure seams low for the displacement.  You could have bought a Suzuki GSX-S750 for $8000 or less because of sales, and have 112.6 HP.

>>The Thruxton - same motor but the HP (High Performance) makes around 100HP.  I cant ride a sport bike.  My wrists, hips, wife, etc. all say "NO!!!".

>>And sometimes the heart overrules the head and price becomes less of a factor.  And the Bonneville is really pretty.



Cheers!

G
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Rough Edge racing on June 19, 2020, 07:46:58 AM
How much of that power do you use on a daily basis?  Most people rarely hit the RPMs required to realize the Peak HP of larger displacement motorcycles.

1200cc for only 84HP?  That sure seams low for the displacement.  You could have bought a Suzuki GSX-S750 for $8000 or less because of sales, and have 112.6 HP.   :evil:

The bottom line is that if you are happy with it, and with the price you paid, that is all that matters.  I would love to have a new 1200 Scrambler with full Ohlins suspension, but for the money I would probably go with the Yamaha Tracer 900 GT if I were interested in going back to liquid cooled bikes.
So you want 90 hp near 500 pound scrambler? How many can handle that bike at full power?
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: ohiorider on June 19, 2020, 07:49:10 AM
I picked up a nice 2016 T120 last November, and am impressed with the power delivery.  Totally different engine than a gsx type engine.

Geoff hit it on the head.  Triumph intended this to be their High Torque engine, and they certainly hit that mark.  Here's a Cycle World dyno chart for the 2016 model:  For my local riding, the bike feels geared slightly too tall, so the rear 37T sprocket will soon be replaced with a 40T sprocket.  5th and 6th gears need to feel wanted!

Of course, the dyno chart reflects rear wheel hp.


(https://i.ibb.co/N94x1GV/T120-dyno-chart-jpeg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N94x1GV)


And I think she's lovely to look at, too!


(https://i.ibb.co/2MwwBrL/IMG-3329.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2MwwBrL)




Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 08:42:37 AM
So you want 90 hp near 500 pound scrambler? How many can handle that bike at full power?

Want and buying are two different things.  I want a lot of things I will never get.  LOL! 

What I really really want is a 300 lb, 50 HP bike with top of the line suspension with at least 5 inch stroke, and a comfortable seat.   :grin: :grin:

It is frustrating to me that I can't buy a KTM Duke 390 that has the same chassis, suspension, etc. of the Duke 1250, or the new 390 adventure that has the same everything else as the 790 adventure. 

or a Yamaha Tracer 700 GT that has everything offered on the Tracer 900 GT.

Or a V7III set up like a Griso. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 08:45:17 AM
Would it matter to you if Piaggio moved all Moto Guzzi production to Thailand?

Absolutely would matter! 

This is the same with Japanese bikes.  Many of their made in Thailand bikes are inferior to their made in Japan bikes.   
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 08:53:06 AM
Speaking as someone who actually PAID the price, I can't agree that it's a price thing.   If it were, I probably wouldn't have bought one .... !

Lannis

I got a $5000 discount when I bought my new Triumph Trophy SE.  On top of that I got a free top box, and heated grips.  That put the price more in line with the Japanese sport touring bikes.  If I had waited one more year to part ways with my Concours 1400, I probably would have gone with the Yamaha FJR with electronic suspension and cruise control.  Those are the two items, along with price, that enticed me to buy the Triumph.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 08:55:26 AM
Cheers!

G

 :thumb:  Good points. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: LowRyter on June 19, 2020, 09:11:31 AM
Want and buying are two different things.  I want a lot of things I will never get.  LOL! 

What I really really want is a 300 lb, 50 HP bike with top of the line suspension with at least 5 inch stroke, and a comfortable seat.   :grin: :grin:

It is frustrating to me that I can't buy a KTM Duke 390 that has the same chassis, suspension, etc. of the Duke 1250, or the new 390 adventure that has the same everything else as the 790 adventure. 

or a Yamaha Tracer 700 GT that has everything offered on the Tracer 900 GT.

Or a V7III set up like a Griso.

(https://www.cycleworld.com/resizer/jqhBTttKi1MVXCtggPuF1x9g4BI=/760x570/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bonnier.s3.amazonaws.com/public/STYA54SYEMTQC45YYYWTEZU42M.jpg)
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Two Checks on June 19, 2020, 09:52:58 AM
Where the bike is made has nothing to do with quality and everything with the manufacturer allowing it.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
(https://www.cycleworld.com/resizer/jqhBTttKi1MVXCtggPuF1x9g4BI=/760x570/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bonnier.s3.amazonaws.com/public/STYA54SYEMTQC45YYYWTEZU42M.jpg)

What is that, and do they sell it in the US?  And, can I fit on it? 

Just researched it.  It is a KTM Duke 390 in Hasqvarna skin.  Not very good reviews on the components.  Budget items to meet a price point.  This is why my friend who never uses more than is available with the 390 Duke ended up buying the 1250 Duke GT.  He wanted all the high end components even though he won't use all the available power.  What is is paying for though, other than the higher price, is the higher insurance and registration fees that come with a more expensive motorcycle. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: oldbike54 on June 19, 2020, 11:51:42 AM
(https://www.cycleworld.com/resizer/jqhBTttKi1MVXCtggPuF1x9g4BI=/760x570/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bonnier.s3.amazonaws.com/public/STYA54SYEMTQC45YYYWTEZU42M.jpg)

 Have seen that at Sturgis , it is the machine used to make assless chaps .

 Dusty
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: ohiorider on June 19, 2020, 01:04:41 PM
Read it twice.  Second time was glad I wasn't drinking coffee!  I'd say this setup might result in you singing an octave higher.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Motormike on June 19, 2020, 01:26:16 PM
The problem I have with Taiwan (or Thailand) Triumphs is the same one I have with Chinese BMW's.  These companies are saving hundreds of millions of dollars on labor cost and not passing any of the savings onto the buyer.  I love the look and style of several of the new Triumphs, but will never buy one.  I won't pay BMW's asking price for a GS 850 made in China by Loncin.  Pay China manufacturing rates and sell to the buyer at German prices.  Sorry, I'm not playing that game.  Would US buyers still pay $20 to $30 thousand dollars for a Harley Davidson if Harley suddenly decided to have all their bikes assembled in Mexico?
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 19, 2020, 02:15:37 PM
In Triumph's case they're not "allowing" production to all be done in Thailand, they specifically directed it to be so.

Motormike also makes one of the points in the video in that: "Triumph hasn't lowered the cost of the Thailand bikes to reflect the significant manufacturing cost savings."

There are several reasons and claims for this, too many to cover in a simple internet post. Some of the reasons and claims are valid and others are marketing spin. Much like 'sales price' isn't the "the" reason for lower bike sales, but it is simply 'one' of the reasons for lower bike sales. I work for a global company with manufacturing and sales infrastructure all over the globe. I understand the reasons, claims and the demands of various markets.

Triumph hurting shouldn't surprise anyone. As a whole, the entire North American motorcycle market is hurting. Sure there are success stories to be found. They need to be found and they need to be made known. Then also the root cause of the success should be applied and repeated as often as possible.

At some point it's simply up to the consumer to make the determination within themselves of what makes an "Italian" or a "British" motorcycle Italian or British. Plus every other available ethnic option. The name on the tank, the history, the symbolism, the ethnicity etc etc etc. The answer to all those is yes, to varying degrees in the mind of every buyer.

Motorcycles, in the US anyway, are emotional decisions carried out with disposable income. If the intangibles didn't matter, we'd all be riding the lowest cost bike possible that would simply get the job done. Then again maybe that's why Kymco and other Asian brands sells circles around Vespa.     
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: LowRyter on June 19, 2020, 02:47:13 PM
What is that, and do they sell it in the US?  And, can I fit on it? 

Just researched it.  It is a KTM Duke 390 in Hasqvarna skin.  Not very good reviews on the components.  Budget items to meet a price point.  This is why my friend who never uses more than is available with the 390 Duke ended up buying the 1250 Duke GT.  He wanted all the high end components even though he won't use all the available power.  What is is paying for though, other than the higher price, is the higher insurance and registration fees that come with a more expensive motorcycle.

390?  Wrong photo I guess.  So sorry. 

This one.

(https://thebikeshed.cc/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Vitpilen-2014-Concept-at-EICMA.jpg)

I suppose you won't like this one either.  Gotta say, not my cup of tea.  Not exactly pretty.  Now that KTM 890 Duke seems pretty cool but would like to have little wind protection.  I'm pretty happy with my 939 Supersport.

Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 03:52:26 PM
Have seen that at Sturgis , it is the machine used to make assless chaps .

 Dusty

No such thing as assless chaps.  Chaps by their very design protect the legs.  There were never any chaps with material to cover your behind.

Now assless jeans are a thing.  Seen young ladies walking around Daytona Beach with them.  Basically cut an oval around the back pockets. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 03:55:34 PM
390?  Wrong photo I guess.  So sorry. 

This one.

(https://thebikeshed.cc/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Vitpilen-2014-Concept-at-EICMA.jpg)

I suppose you won't like this one either.  Gotta say, not my cup of tea.  Not exactly pretty.  Now that KTM 890 Duke seems pretty cool but would like to have little wind protection.  I'm pretty happy with my 939 Supersport.

Same single that used to be in the 690 Duke.  Man was that bike like riding a paint shaker!  I couldn't find a smooth RPM!  I haven't tried the 790 twin, but I guess it was quickly usurped by the 890. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: twowheeladdict on June 19, 2020, 04:02:34 PM
In Triumph's case they're not "allowing" production to all be done in Thailand, they specifically directed it to be so.

Motormike also makes one of the points in the video in that: "Triumph hasn't lowered the cost of the Thailand bikes to reflect the significant manufacturing cost savings."

There are several reasons and claims for this, too many to cover in a simple internet post. Some of the reasons and claims are valid and others are marketing spin. Much like 'sales price' isn't the "the" reason for lower bike sales, but it is simply 'one' of the reasons for lower bike sales. I work for a global company with manufacturing and sales infrastructure all over the globe. I understand the reasons, claims and the demands of various markets.

Triumph hurting shouldn't surprise anyone. As a whole, the entire North American motorcycle market is hurting. Sure there are success stories to be found. They need to be found and they need to be made known. Then also the root cause of the success should be applied and repeated as often as possible.

At some point it's simply up to the consumer to make the determination within themselves of what makes an "Italian" or a "British" motorcycle Italian or British. Plus every other available ethnic option. The name on the tank, the history, the symbolism, the ethnicity etc etc etc. The answer to all those is yes, to varying degrees in the mind of every buyer.

Motorcycles, in the US anyway, are emotional decisions carried out with disposable income. If the intangibles didn't matter, we'd all be riding the lowest cost bike possible that would simply get the job done. Then again maybe that's why Kymco and other Asian brands sells circles around Vespa.   

The fact that Royal Enfield recruited known and accomplished design firms to design the Himalayan, and the whole new modern plant with modern techniques, as well as getting the bugs worked out before going global is one of the reasons I considered that Indian made bike with a historic British name.  Knowing that they are all inspected upon arrival at Royal Enfield USA prior to going to dealers was another plus.  The price was icing on the cake knowing that it might cost me $1000 total to enjoy the bike for 3 or 4 years. 
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: TN Mark on June 19, 2020, 06:26:01 PM
The fact that Royal Enfield recruited known and accomplished design firms to design the Himalayan, and the whole new modern plant with modern techniques, as well as getting the bugs worked out before going global is one of the reasons I considered that Indian made bike with a historic British name.  Knowing that they are all inspected upon arrival at Royal Enfield USA prior to going to dealers was another plus.  The price was icing on the cake knowing that it might cost me $1000 total to enjoy the bike for 3 or 4 years.

That's fantastic, congratulations.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: Demar on June 19, 2020, 11:53:33 PM
My 2010 T100 I bought new in June of 2011. I think it was $7999. Assembled in Thailand. I was told the tanks were still being hand painted in England at that time. Most all the other parts were sourced worldwide and assembled in Thailand. It's been a great bike and I get compliments on it every time I take it out. I liked it when I bought it and I still like it today and I'm glad to have it.

(https://i.ibb.co/CH8Sbz3/bonnie-other-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CH8Sbz3)
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: LowRyter on June 20, 2020, 09:31:23 AM
Same single that used to be in the 690 Duke.  Man was that bike like riding a paint shaker!  I couldn't find a smooth RPM!  I haven't tried the 790 twin, but I guess it was quickly usurped by the 890.

Sure, they're all crap.  I wouldn't read a review, much less actually look at one.
Title: Re: NGC: Triumph Motorcycles Seems To Be In Trouble
Post by: vf84pc on July 10, 2020, 10:45:35 AM
John Bloor stated that his new Triumph had nothing in common with the original Triumph and he changed the logo. We were free to use the old Logo as long as we were associating it with the "Vintage Triumphs" not the new models. Now he claims the logo and his legal team threatens action against the the guys selling the T-shirts (Old Logo) associated with our vintage Triumph bikes. I contacted Triumph and complained and was told to visit a new Triumph dealer and buy an officially licensed lower quality new logo T-shirt for about $50.00  Since they told me (In a nice way) to pound salt I told them I would never purchase one of their products. I toured there UK factory, I wanted to purchase a Bonnie (At that time made in the UK) but it did not put a rise in Levi's like the Vintage units. But what I was going to buy was a Rocket 3 Touring. Instead I bought a used 04 California EV Touring and I am glad I did because riding it reminds me of my Bonnie (750CC) T140 especially with all the times it left me stranded and all the repairs I have done.
I've heard all the reasons for moving production: Asia Market, Competitive cost of the "Intro Bonnie Bike" Pound to dollar exchange rate, etc.
Honda and the other Japanese Motorcycle company's pay well and the workers enjoy a high standard of living as do Italians, Germans and Americans. But lets's call a spade a spade, Triumph is only there because Labor is cheep Thailand has lax labor and environmental standards. I have no doubt about the quality of the work and the product. However I find it insulting as a consumer that they want to play the "the British Bike" card when the product is made in Thailand.
Triumph didn't appreciate the vintage guys, they wanted new young riders but now they need us old dogs with money to buy bikes and we are not so interested in them.