Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cdn850T5NT on July 23, 2020, 10:59:48 AM
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Useful and important matter...
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ienatsch-tuesday/slow-your-motorcycle-longer-in-corners/
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I read that and I also read Keith Code's book A Twist of the Wrist II. Code would like you to get on the gas much earlier than Ienatsch suggests. He wants you to shift the weight to the rear wheel of the bike so the balance is 40% front, 60% rear, and to keep rolling the throttle on through the turn. When I read the Cycle World piece I was surprised. Perhaps the experts disagree...
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I think Nick's right about trail braking. Brake hard in a straight line and then lighten up on the brakes until you get to apex, then gas it exiting the corner (or overlap brake and gas together). I think many riders use downshifting much like trail braking. Nick makes case why trail braking works best.
All of it make more sense then slowing in a straight line and then gassing when entering the turns (MSF style).
Here's a test. Rather than downshifting into a turn, keep the bike in a higher gear and then experiment with braking after you enter the turn and then gassing as you come out. Once you get the feel of trail braking, then combine that with a downshifting. Once you get that down, you might find an occasion where trail braking throttle application overlap coming out of the corner.
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Agreed! Code lays out the mechanics in an easily understood way - and this CW piece runs totally opposite.
Code's approach is to gently accelerate through the turn once the bike is leaned over. To decelerate or accelerate hard makes the bike run wide. Keeping the 60/40 weight distribution aids the suspension and smooths rough and bumpy corners.
Until reading Code's books I tended to keep a steady throttle through turns so it didn't feel comfortable gently accelerating. But I have found his approach does help suspension and, when in doubt, give it some throttle and the bike sticks like glue.
Now, it's possible the CW article is focusing on a situation where too much throttle was used in turns. In that case, yes, you'll get in trouble - but going to the other extreme of no throttle, or even slowing, isn't the answer.
Code has come up with some interesting data in his search to understand the mechanics of cornering - like, this one - he says that once leaned over, it's the rear tire that steers the bike. He points out that the front tire can be in the air and the bike will still be turning. That's a difficult one to grasp.
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I’ve read Code’s books and taken Ienatsch’s two-day track school. My sense is that Code’s stuff is old tech, and that Ienatsch’s methods have become the current state of the art. I would also note that Code is pretty impressed with himself, while Ienatsch a much better teacher. Code has some pretty neat test bikes, though.
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I don't think the two articles disagree, at least not as I understand it. Code says to get on the throttle, "as soon as possible." "The bike wants the throttle." Ienatsch says much the same with his "maintenance throttle." Neither one of them wants you coasting through a turn. Ether on the brake or transitioning back on the gas. I took several of Code's schools years ago, including a couple of days at Lagua Seca...that was fun. My problem is on the street, I never have the nerve or faith in (pick one) road surface, oncoming traffic, blind corners, lack of runoff, to be as aggressive with the throttle as many of my riding friends. It's easier on the track (to a point) when you always know there's no sand, no animals, no cars across the centerline, no cops, etc. Even though I never got very good at it, I miss track days. It got to the point where my brain was writing checks my body (and bank balance) couldn't cash. If you've never done one, it's a real eye opener. There's nothing else that causes such total focus as slowing from triple digit speeds to set up for the next corner. You won't be worried you forgot to lock the door at home, I can promise you.
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I felt that the Cycle World writer (easier to write than Nick's name) wanted the rider to coast into the corner. Code wants you on the gas asap and staying on the gas and rolling it on steadily through the corner. I believe Code is writing for a racer or trackday rider and secondarily for a street rider. The Cycle World piece is for the street rider, so it's more conservative. All that said, I'm a Sunday Rider here, surrounded by Guzzi Heros and Superstars, so I'm gonna back right outta here...
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I really didn't understand much from the last few posts. So let me ask:
1) Pick up the throttle when you lean? What does this mean? Immediately when the bike is leaned over? Leaned over to the max (at apex)? Somewhere in between? The trail brake theory is to get on the gas when you let off the brake at maximum lean (at apex) and perhaps overlap the braking and the throttle. This is not maximum braking in the turn, just enough to drag the brake to maintain control (this is largely done but not solely done with the front brake).
2) Coast into a turn? Whoever does that? I've never put the bike in neutral or disengaged the clutch and rolled into a turn. That's a recipe for disaster. OTOH, I do believe that many folks use engine braking when rolling into a turn. And as I said, it's another form of trail braking which relies on the back wheel dragging. I believe many riders use this. I think the trail braking technique is a more complete approach.
3) Real world riding. The most common time to brake and turn is usually at an intersection making 90 degree turns. There are other times to do it when approaching a steep curve. Most of the fast sweepers on secondary highways generally don't require braking unless the rider is cruising well over the limit. Given this, I recommend practicing trail braking at intersections. Again, a good technique to learn this is keeping the bike in a higher gear so as not to use engine braking and to rely on the front brake. Once this is mastered, combine the technique with downshifting.
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Agreed - these techniques don't seem to make a lot of difference at sub warp speeds. I don't know about Keith being full of himself or anything like that, only what I've read in his books. I kind of feel that if someone has made it to the top and has a simple way of explaining the technology he's applied, then it's worth checking out.
As for the original purpose of the research and the CW article, I'd say the guys need to slow down. Technique could be part of the bigger picture, but jumping into deep water before knowing how to swim isn't exactly smart. The problem is how to teach new guys where the limit is at? If they don't know they're in over their heads until they're in over their heads, how do you get the message across? And with high power sport bikes deep water shows up in a blink.
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The author state that it’s for “fast riders on fast bikes”. To really fine tune the points requires track days. You can practice at slower speeds on real world roads.
The points that the author makes are true. I can keep up with much faster bikes in the mountains by judicious use of trail braking and keeping in mind that “you have to go slow to go fast”. The other point I’m inferring from the article is that the author is trying to get newer, less experienced riders to put aside their posturing egos and stop trying to get on the throttle as soon as possible! Too many riders try to get that front tire to lift coming out of the corner to look cool, and they don’t realize it’s making them slower and more dangerous.
Good solid article. Thanks for sharing Cdn!
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Most of these articles also include using the entire lane when navigating curves.
Here in the southeast that can get you into trouble real fast. The gravel from driveways tends to congregate in the center of the lane, and there always seems to be a driveway at the apex of a turn, or the vehicle that cut the corner pull gravel from the shoulder.
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The author state that it’s for “fast riders on fast bikes”...
Good solid article. Thanks for sharing Cdn!
NP... My pleasure.
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Increasing radius turn?
Decreasing radius turn?
Off camber?
Cambered?
So many variables...
Looking from the rear, i like to think of a vertical line in the middle of the tire
Consider the decrease in radius from the middle to the outside edge
Aha! Looks like a gear cluster on a 10 speed...decreases in size
Given a steady throttle and neutral handlebars, leaning (Body movement) the bike will SLOW the bike and steer to the inside of the curve (decreasing radius)
Given a Slightly rising (risen) throttle, and leaning at the same time the bike MAINTAINS speed And stays in a steady radius curve. The increase in lean is similar to going to a smaller rear cog on your 10 speed. You have to add power (legs) to Maintain a given speed. A steady speed can translate to a perfect radius. No push inside, no push to the outside. Equilibrium.
Above that, given a stronger rising throttle, and leaning, the bike accelerates ,and pushes to an increasing radius turn, unless you keep leaning more (as you approach the limits of stiction on your tires)
Racing pushes all this to the edge of the performance envelope w staying within traction boundaries
On the street very few would be on that edge
Lots of room to f’up and survive
Controlling and having power to the rear wheel keeps you stuck to the pavement. Try downshifting to a lower gear and the same speed (higher rpm) gives more precise control w adding or subtracting power (Powerband work, not brakes) for increasing or decreasing radius turns
YMMV
How’d i do?
Hope I don’t get anyone hurt...
(https://i.ibb.co/HrYLwYK/3-F47-BCBA-17-B7-4-EDE-986-F-B4-C901-E366-F0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HrYLwYK)
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Nice racer pic Chuck. :thumb:
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Of course, on the track, the pros aren't thinking about technique. They'd better have that on auto-pilot, they're too busy sizing up the rider in front of them, trining to find were he's slower, they are quicker, and where they can set up for a pass. I can't stress how astounding it is when you "think" you're going fast to have an instructor or WERA racer blow by you like your backing up.
Allow me to quote Pete Egan,
"It's quite humbling to think you have a fast sweeper nailed and then have an instructor cruise by you on the outside, looking back over his shoulder at you, gesturing to follow him.
You could feel worse, I suppose. He could be eating a sandwich."
It's never the bike, it's always the rider. So ride your own ride, because there's always somebody faster.
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Another humbling moment......in the Dolomites working a switchback as fast as you can then getting passed by a LeMans III rider with a pax. I got a riding lesson from this Italian rider with wife. I chased them for about 25 miles and talked with him when stopped. He had a rear tire on that needed replacing. :grin:
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Most of us will never know where the limit actually is for one reason, few of us has ever had a bike slide from under us because we pushed it that hard. To know the limit, one must have first hand experience where that limit is and what it feels like just before she goes down. Racers, usually become the instructors because they know where those limits are.
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Of course, on the track, the pros aren't thinking about technique. They'd better have that on auto-pilot, they're too busy sizing up the rider in front of them, trining to find were he's slower, they are quicker, and where they can set up for a pass. I can't stress how astounding it is when you "think" you're going fast to have an instructor or WERA racer blow by you like your backing up.
Allow me to quote Pete Egan,
"It's quite humbling to think you have a fast sweeper nailed and then have an instructor cruise by you on the outside, looking back over his shoulder at you, gesturing to follow him.
You could feel worse, I suppose. He could be eating a sandwich."
It's never the bike, it's always the rider. So ride your own ride, because there's always somebody faster.
Always fun to run away from riders and pull off a few miles down the road and smoking a cigarette when the catch you.
(I'll admit that I've run with more guys that can do that to me than otherwise.)