Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: GeorgiaGuzzi on July 28, 2020, 01:55:25 PM
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So I go my Quota back together. During my initial shake down ride I stopped to put fuel in it. After filling it up it would not restart. It was leaking some oil, turns out I did not install an o-ring with the new tach sensor. I Installed O-Ring, properly shimmed the sensor. Still no start. I put the old but still good plug wires back on. Still no start. I started swapping relays with the horn relay. Ecu relay was bad. Ordered new relays from Greg Bender (awesome quality product!) and installed. Bike fired right up! Yay! So today I started the bike up, warmed it up, pulled up from shop to house. Turned bike off to go get my gear. Bike will not restart again!!! 😡 My next item to check is spark plug gap.
Any other ideas? The bike fires almost immediately but dies right away. Giving it throttle when it catches does not help, just results in a backfire or two. I’m approaching stumped.
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By tach sensor do you mean the camshaft sensor? Are you sure it's properly shimmed?
Did you replace all relays? If not, do so and report back.
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By tach sensor do you mean the camshaft sensor? Are you sure it's properly shimmed?
Did you replace all relays? If not, do so and report back.
The flywheel sensor. It’s on the left (drivers side) front area.
And yes, all relays replaced with quality new sealed units.
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I’ve been down this road on my Centauro.
The relays literally bend the contact tang, but you’ve replaced them. Open one of them up and take a look inside :wink:
The crank angle went next. It started intermittently when warm no start until one day it just stopped dead mid ride.
Luckily I was close to home, it was a shakedown, waited 40 minutes and got it started and it coughed and sputtered all the way home. I immediately ripped the tank off and measured the crank angle sensor and it was high resistance. Waited an hour or so and measured again and it was back to near normal.
New crank angle sensor installed with correct gap 0.6-1.2mm and haven’t had an issue since, knock on wood :bike-037:
Good luck
Adam
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You need GuzziDiag. It maybe tell you more.
Do you have spark? Carry a spare plug and put a plug wire on that during a no start.
Do you have fuel in the cylinder? Do you smell any fuel at the exhaust?
Don't trust the fuses either. They can get corroded. May be worth replacing.
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Thanks Wayne, I’ll grab a spark plug to test when it happens.
Just an update. I checked the gap on the plugs. It was a little too large. .09 mm instead of .07. I regapped the plugs, and went for a spin. As soon as I pulled out of my driveway it cut out. Coasted to a stop, pushed it back to my driveway and rolled down the drive. It would not bump start.
The fuses all look good. I just have this feeling it’s something I’m overlooking.
I do believe I have fuel in the cylinders.
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When it is a no start, and you first turn on the key, do you hear the fuel pump?
As in, any chance it is something as goofy as a sidestand switch failing?
You can borrow my GuzziDiagnostic cables if you have a PC. But I suspect they won't help a lot.
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The fuel pump will start and run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key On but It's fairly hard to tell if it's running over the clatter of the engine.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Quota_1100_ES.gif
When the sensor (47) is working properly the ECU turns on relay (41) which powers up the Red/Black wire to liven up the pump, coils and injectors.
So all you need to know if the sensor is working is a simple 12 Volt light incandescent or LED I sometimes put one as a permanent fixture under the seat of my Guzzis,
All you have to do if the bike won't start is glance and you know a major part of the bike is working.
As Wayne says it could be the side stand switch or or something else in that circuit a 12 Volt lamp will tell you the state of that as well, my VII Sport was playing up one day, I looked under the seat and found the lamp across the petcock at half normal brightness. I was away again in seconds with the stand switch bypassed.
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Would you have access to another set of ignition coils ? Peter
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Has the Quota got a TPS?
If so, has it
a) Moved
b) Gone FUBAR
The one on my B11 caused the bike to die at idle but run on the throttle until I replaced it
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Wayne, I will check the side stand switch by bypassing it when it misbehaves. Also I’ll recheck the fuses and probably replace them.
Roy, I can hear my pump do it’s initial cycle but I have no idea if it remains functional after starting. That’s a good suggestion and I’ll see about adding a check light. I just wire it onto the pump leads correct?
Peter, not at the moment. I’ll look into the ignition coils after the pump.
Tris, I have no idea tbh. I’ll research and check.
Thanks very very much everyone. I’ll get to diagnosing this coming week.
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Roy, I can hear my pump do it’s initial cycle but I have no idea if it remains functional after starting.
When it's running open the gas cap, if gas is swirling around you know it's pumping.
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The initial pump priming has nothing to do with the sensor (the motor is not even turning), its strictly based on a timer, when the motor is turning over the ECU should see pulses from the sensor and turn the pump back on
Pick up a feed wherever you can off the Red/Black wire, there are easier places than off the coils. The light (38) for example or simply wrap a small wire around pin 87 of the relay.
Once you see how informative it is you will be reluctant to do away with it, imagine trying to get a meter onto the pump for example.
As I said earlier another really useful place to monitor is the signal powering up the ECU relay connector (51) loom from the rest of the bike, its often before there that gives trouble due to corrosion or loose connections.
Fuse 3 is a convenient place to monitor that signal in this case.
Get power to the ECU and chances are the bike will always run.
Note: the actual wire colour may not be Red/Black but you will be able to figure that out because it goes so many places.
The only other signal (52) going to the ECU is just pulses to the tach, not required for running.
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Fuel taps fully open?
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New crank angle sensor installed with correct gap 0.6-1.2mm
This. If there is too much gap, it will run poorly or not at all.
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This. If there is too much gap, it will run poorly or not at all.
what he said in reply number one.
By tach sensor do you mean the camshaft sensor? Are you sure it's properly shimmed?
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Wayne, I will check the side stand switch by bypassing it when it misbehaves. Also I’ll recheck the fuses and probably replace them.
Roy, I can hear my pump do it’s initial cycle but I have no idea if it remains functional after starting. That’s a good suggestion and I’ll see about adding a check light. I just wire it onto the pump leads correct?
If you hear the pump with the key on, then the sidestand switch is fine.
Now you need to know about spark and/or fuel.
Carry a spare plug, sniff the exhaust for fuel.
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To illustrate how important the ECU wiring is I have cut out just that part of the bike. It's actually a separate sub-loom just for the ECU and anything associated with it.
(https://i.ibb.co/6B53DVs/DSCN0338.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QdG2Yzm)
I have drawn a couple of lamps on it, the one with the * tells you that the coils and injectors are powered up and the pump should be running.
The pump starts for a couple of seconds when you turn the key on but that's only a simple timer to prime the pump. After that it relies on the Phase Sensor, this simple device is absolutely vital for the operation, it fires the spark and
injectors based on gaps in the Phenolic wheel, without a good phase sensor gapped properly you are dead in the water, the simple light gives you an indication that its working otherwise how would you know?
Sure if the engines running, it must be working but suppose its not, this simple light stops you guessing.
How do you know the Interlocks are ok
Another light on the interlock circuit tells you that by glowing at full brightness, not half bright or winking as it can if you have a bad side stand switch or other bad contact, Of course without good interlocks the phase sensor won't work either.
This same idea rings true for any modern Guzzi as well, very little has changed over the years in the fuel injection department.
This is all your Guzzi needs to run, it will get home without lights, starter, indicators and the horn, they are only window dressing for convenience. It will run just fine without the interlocks if you hot wire it, even the relays aren't required.
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Thanks Roy. Much appreciated. I’ll tackle the items over the coming month. Between work, home improvement honey do, maintaining my other, and replacing the front suspension on my ‘97 Cummins I think I need a clone!!!
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Nice, KR. Saved that one to my "Roy's Guzzi Stuff" file. :thumb:
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Is this a light like Roy is talking about installing?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254594648636
After I get back from my trip my attention will be back on my Quota
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Gas filter? If mounted on just above the engine. You're getting vapor lock or it needs replacing.
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Is this a light like Roy is talking about installing?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254594648636
After I get back from my trip my attention will be back on my Quota
Those may work, but I used simple micro LEDs pigtails on my Quota ( I think Roy told me which ones to use) and they are about 5 bucks for a bundle of them, maybe 10 or 15 to the bundle.
JD
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Those may work, but I used simple micro LEDs pigtails on my Quota ( I think Roy told me which ones to use) and they are about 5 bucks for a bundle of them, maybe 10 or 15 to the bundle.
JD
Thank ya, thank ya very much. (In best Elvis voice)
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Okay, fuel pump is getting power after kill switch is switched on. It powers up for initial prime, then has power while turning over and when running.
When cool it started right up. Idled and runs well. After a trip up the driveway and on the way back down it got warmed up and promptly died. Fuel pump still has power when cranking over during non start. However, when I checked spark the left side spark plug has strong spark, arcing nicely on the crash bar. The right side spark however, has a very faint spark. No arcing, not bright, just a faint wee spark. I did purchase a very basic multimeter today. But I have never used one so further instructions for diagnosing this would be most welcome.
Cheers, Robert
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After getting it warm. Try spraying some starter fluid or carb cleaner in both cylinders then start. If it runs then you're not getting gas. Maybe fuel filter needs a change-out.
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After getting it warm. Try spraying some starter fluid or carb cleaner in both cylinders then start. If it runs then you're not getting gas. Maybe fuel filter needs a change-out.
I installed a new fuel filter while I was repairing the seals. But it sure acts like it doesn’t get fuel. What are causes of vapor lock? Would the fuel regulator being blocked up cause an issue? While I had the tank off I stored it inside but a dirt dauber had build a home inside the fuel regulator inlet. I cleaned it out as best as I could but turns out a replacement quota regulator is unobtainium!
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I like Tom's idea. If adding fuel solves the problem, then something isn't right on the fuel side.
I'm also curious about the weak spark you reported on the right side when the engine is warm. Do you also have a weak spark when the engine is cold? I think ignition coils can sometimes get flaky when they warm up.
Can you swap the coils around? Would be interesting if the weak spark appeared on the left side after swapping the coils around.
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My V11 Sport used to vapor lock. The fuel pump was located in the middle of cylinders just above the block. The cure was to relocate it with longer hoses. You could try to insulate it more to keep heat away from the pump.
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Smithswede good suggestion. Tom, the fuel pump and filter are under the seat. Should I insulate them anyways? Anyways, the rain just started in earnest so I’ll get started checking in the morning and post results. Thanks
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Not a direct answer to anything, just thoughts.
All of the cases of vapor lock take a lot more time to get hot, then the heat has to soak into the fuel line. As long as fuel is moving it should keep the lines cooled down enough to prevent vapor lock.
When you at first fire it up, the ECU automatically is in 'choke' mode. As in, it sprays a LOT more fuel in for the first minute or two, then starts to back off the 'choke'. So, if something has it too lean, it may fire and run even on the leaned out 'choke' mix, then as it leans out towards the normal setting, it is too lean. If that makes sense. It may be too lean, but run ok on the 'choke' program inside the ECU. GuzziDiag would show the injector pulse width, and the sensors. If a sensor is far enough out of whack, it may be too lean. Maybe the idle trim in the computer just went whacko. I have see that a few times, but it usually only impacts idle. I also wonder about the fuel regulator though. Not so easy to test. Does it have a fuel solenoid, and is it opening for sure. (fuel pour out under gravity if the hose is off?)
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Smithswede good suggestion. Tom, the fuel pump and filter are under the seat. Should I insulate them anyways? Anyways, the rain just started in earnest so I’ll get started checking in the morning and post results. Thanks
The only cases of vapor lock I have seen was on the V11, and after the bike was parked a few minutes, and VERY hot. The fuel would boil. Never saw it happen with the engine running. The pump is keeping fresh cool fuel in the lines so it would be hard to happen.
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Thanks Wayne. When it gets warm enough for whatever to trigger it shuts down quick fast and in a hurry. Like I hit the kill switch. It doesn’t act like it’s leaning out before it cuts out. It pulls good then cuts out without so much as a by your leave! Quite annoying.
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Yeah. My V11 wouldn't start after sitting at a gas stop. I'd have to wait an additional 10-15 minutes for it to cool down. Your Quota sounds okay for fuel pump/filter.
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Are you using the cam sensor with the groove sliced into it that I seen in the other thread? May have something to do with it.
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Okay, fuel pump is getting power after kill switch is switched on. It powers up for initial prime, then has power while turning over and when running.
When cool it started right up. Idled and runs well. After a trip up the driveway and on the way back down it got warmed up and promptly died. Fuel pump still has power when cranking over during non start. However, when I checked spark the left side spark plug has strong spark, arcing nicely on the crash bar. The right side spark however, has a very faint spark. No arcing, not bright, just a faint wee spark. I did purchase a very basic multimeter today. But I have never used one so further instructions for diagnosing this would be most welcome.
Cheers, Robert
This sounds like it might be something to do with the coil or perhaps the plug is tracking across the insulator instead of jumping the gap
One test you can do for us with your new meter on the Ohms scale is take a resistance reading from the plug cap to chassis, it should be the same on both sides somewhere in the range of 8,000 Ohms (8k)
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Two more.
1) Since spark may be an issue, I’d try starting it in the dark and look to see if you have funny blue, but unwanted, arcing. Pull on, jiggle, and re-route wires. Spray WD-40 on stuff in case something is wet.
2) Did you say DIRT DAUBERS??? I’ve had a ton of problems caused by dirt daubers. Since this may be a fuel problem, and those devious little bastards were messing with a fuel related component, I would give that a hard look. But again, if you can prevent the engine from dying when it warms a bit with some squirts of starter fluid, you will know this is likely fuel related. If starter fluid makes no difference I’d go back to pondering sparks and wires.
Go ahead and spray starting fluid on the dirt daubers though.
Keep posting data. We’ll keep giving you bad advice.
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Thanks Wayne. When it gets warm enough for whatever to trigger it shuts down quick fast and in a hurry. Like I hit the kill switch. It doesn’t act like it’s leaning out before it cuts out. It pulls good then cuts out without so much as a by your leave! Quite annoying.
Makes sense. Likely not a slow leaning out.
Do you have a laptop to run GuzziDiag?
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My money ($.02) is on the coil(s).
Paul B :boozing:
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My money ($.02) is on the coil(s).
Paul B :boozing:
Where was your money on July 28th?
Its very easy to jump on the band wagon now
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Where was your money on July 28th?
Its very easy to jump on the band wagon now
:boozing:
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Where was your money on July 28th?
I had to wait for my interest to accrue on my investment before springing the big buck wager. Plus it's so much fun reading all the other posts going down the "fuel" rabbit hole :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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Where was your money on July 28th?
Its very easy to jump on the band wagon now
Evidently the band wagon is still playing cause it still don't run. My money is on the new sensor w/a groove cut in it. Unless replaced since.
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Yes, the “bobbing for Quota gremlins” is still going on. I can almost guarantee that we will know when we find it. Kinda like the you’ll find your lost item in the last place you look for it! Lol
Wayne, I do have an older windows 10 laptop.
Roy, my multimeter has readings up to 2000k. Is that 6,000 too few, or 1,992k plenty?
Steve, the new sensor is the one with a small cut in it. I’m not too worried about it because the old sensor had a bigger crease and the bike ran fine with it. But I’m not ruling it out. It’s in line after I check the fuel and coils.
Now Ima gonna go play with my recalcitrant Quota and report back.
Again, thanks for everyone’s input very much.
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Okay, the resistance on the left hand coil (the one with lots of spark) is 7.8.
Resistance on right hand coil is 8.5.
Measured by positive feed attached at plug cap, negative feed to frame.
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Thats good for the secondary side, check between the pos terminal and neg terminal on the coil for primary side ohms. should be less than 3to4 ohms, then check them both again after it's warmed up or stalls.
Paul B :boozing:
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Thats good for the secondary side, check between the pos terminal and neg terminal on the coil for primary side ohms. should be less than 3to4 ohms, then check them both again after it's warmed up or stalls.
Paul B :boozing:
So to check the positive and negative terminals I pull off the connector and check the actual posts the terminal plug into correct?
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You are correct, should be just a couple of ohms.
Paul B :boozing:
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You are correct, should be just a couple of ohms.
Paul B :boozing:
Okay, with multimeter at lowest setting (200) the left side measures .4-.5 , the right side measures 1.1 . The measurements are with a cold engine.
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Okay, the resistance on the left hand coil (the one with lots of spark) is 7.8.
Resistance on right hand coil is 8.5.
Measured by positive feed attached at plug cap, negative feed to frame.
I'm assuming thats 7,800 and 8,500 Ohms. The thing is the coils will be the same, the resistor caps will also be the same ~5,000 so the difference is in the high tension leads, that crappy carbon core wire i'm guessing.
This probably has nothing to do with your hard starting but I would change the leads out for copper core wire anyway.
Both sparks should be identical, perhaps you have a weak coil but whatever the reason don't be satisfied until you get even resistance and even sparks on both sides.
I doubt you can get any sensible reading on the primary of the coils, the resistance is too low to measure with a cheap meter (fine for the high resistance of the secondary)
You can probably measure the individual resistance of the secondary components ~5k for caps, ~3k for coils and the rest for leads which will be zero when you have replaced the carbon with copper core.
Thats good for the secondary side, check between the pos terminal and neg terminal on the coil for primary side ohms. should be less than 3to4 ohms, then check them both again after it's warmed up or stalls.
Paul B :boozing:
As RR says if you get anything showing up when hot it would be a bad coil for sure.
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When warmed up and doing it’s non start, both sides of the coil show 0.00 ohms. When the leads touch the connector prongs it shows 0.02, the 0.01, then 0.00. The multimeter does not show open loop, which would be a 1 on the left side of display.
Just saw your post Roy. Yes this is the cheapest multimeter. Me buying an expensive piece would be a waste on me currently.
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When warmed up and doing it’s non start, both sides of the coil show 0.00 ohms. When the leads touch the connector prongs it shows 0.02, the 0.01, then 0.00. The multimeter does not show open loop, which would be a 1 on the left side of display.
Just saw your post Roy. Yes this is the cheapest multimeter. Me buying an expensive piece would be a waste on me currently.
It doesn't matter how cheap the meter is if it works, even a $5 meter can be reasonably accurate, the expensive meters usually have better leads and are safer to use on mains applications.
Hey, you are getting some readings now, we'll have you a sparky in no time lol
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Even though the coils have heated up you should still have about the same readings as cold on the primary side. Me thinks some new coils are in your future.
Paul B :boozing:
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How is the battery? Does it crank well after stalling and the no start? Just for info the Marelli ecu actually enrichens the fuel map for 3000 crankshaft revolutions after every start hot or cold so when you do a CO trim adjustment after a warm start you need to allow 3-4 minutes of running before you ascertain if the idle is better/worse. it's just general info so you know that it's not likely to be an issue with the engine going off the enrichment map thats causing the no restart. Doesnt mean its not fuel related though. Have you replaced the crank position sensor? They can be fickle things. You can buy cheap Chinese copies and I have used them successfully.
Ciao
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So it appears that these coils will work for my Quota. Am I correct in that thinking?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/402256010557
Also this fuel regulator looks the same.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/293693727959
Lemme search for cheap crank sensor.
I’m going to try downloading Guzzidiag too.
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Yes and Yes
The small tube on the regulator doesn't have a hose on, its open to atmosphere
Actually I'd be surprised if your regulator is bad it comes after the filter which protects the injectors and regulator.
I suggest you fill the filter up with fuel shake it around then let the fuel run back out the inlet to flush anything loose out, the one on my EV was full of rust.
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It doesn't matter how cheap the meter is if it works, even a $5 meter can be reasonably accurate, the expensive meters usually have better leads and are safer to use on mains applications.
Hey, you are getting some readings now, we'll have you a sparky in no time lol
But....
I believe he said that the meter was on the 200 ohms scale. It may not have good range and good leads to measure the coil primarys that are near 1 ohm. (I'm not sure what the coils for an ECU are, but they are VERY low. Maybe under 1 ohm)
So maybe the meter isn't good enough in this case.
But even if one coil was failing when hot, the other cylinder would still fire and try to run. And the ECU uses a very short controlled dwell time. Not like the old points where the dwell time may be a lot and cause excess coil heat.
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I’m still waiting to hear if swapping coils moves the problem. Or if starter fluid keeps it running.
I don’t think it is the phase sensor. Don’t think it would start and spark at all if that were bad.
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I’m still waiting to hear if swapping coils moves the problem. Or if starter fluid keeps it running.
I don’t think it is the phase sensor. Don’t think it would start and spark at all if that were bad.
True but sometimes they only give trouble when hot hence my interest in knowing how warmed up the engine is when it won't re start. These things are so cheap these days that if the original is 10 or 15 years old it's time to replace it anyway I think. They aren't like a remote baro or ambient temp sensor that if they go bad then the engine still runs ok and the system just reverts to a default value. This thing spends it's life bathed in 100-110 degree engine oil on a hot vibrating crankcase and when it fails you're on the side of the road or have an annoying intermittent problem.
It's what we used to term in the aviation industry as on a "hard" time limit in my view. Once its done its klms replace it as a matter of routine maintenance.
Ciao
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Good point. I’ve learned this the hard way and now travel with a spare sensor in the saddle bag.
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Okay, progress was today.
Went by Wayne’s, he hooked up Guzzidiag. Everything checked out. Fuel pump is working correctly, injectors pulsing nicely, coils work fine when I have them plugged in. (I had forgot to hook up the right one after testing it! 🤦♂️) bike starts right up. When it warms up it just shuts off. Rpm sensor fault according to Guzzidiag. Looks like Steve and Lucky Phil may be right. Ordering a new sensor and then we’ll see!
Again, many thanks! Especially Wayne Orwig!
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Congratulations, you are lucky to have Wayne to call on.
Re the sensor I believe that would have shown up with the addition of a simple lamp as I suggested in reply No 7.
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Congratulations, you are lucky to have Wayne to call on.
Re the sensor I believe that would have shown up with the addition of a simple lamp as I suggested in reply No 7.
Hmmm, you’re right. The test I did was with a test light. When it was doing it’s non start I attached negative clip to negative post of fuel pump. Held light on positive post of fuel pump while I cranked it over. Light stayed lit even while not starting. :shocked:
Also spark plugs have spark while not starting. Hmmm.
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Good deal. One other thought. I’ve had a fair bit of trouble with my crank position sensors on a V7 Stone. But I’m now pretty sure that some or all of the problems were the connector, not the sensor itself. So I’d give the sensor connectors a very thorough cleaning with contact cleaner.
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Good deal. One other thought. I’ve had a fair bit of trouble with my crank position sensors on a V7 Stone. But I’m now pretty sure that some or all of the problems were the connector, not the sensor itself. So I’d give the sensor connectors and very thorough cleaning with contact cleaner.
Will do! Thanks for the input