Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom H on August 22, 2020, 07:56:35 PM
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This is from a gone through and cleaned engine with 320 miles on it. Is it rich or oil or ????. When I gently touch and wipe my finger on the piston, it feels like sand and a few grains comes off on my finger.
(https://i.ibb.co/9sSYNmk/1000-head-319-miles-20200822-164350.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9sSYNmk) (https://i.ibb.co/tsw8hDK/1000-piston-319-miles-20200822-164409.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tsw8hDK)
Thank you,
Tom
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One question , why did you pull the heads ? Was the engine smoking , not running well ?
Dusty
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In addition to Dusty's question, what was your break-in procedure?
Paul B :boozing:
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I chasing a noise issue that I believe is RPM related. Sounds like it's upper end. I made a post about my issue earlier, but maybe it's a tuning issue causing my problem
This is the RH side. LH looked the same.
LH valve spring pound rating "per a valve spring scale that S/B +/- 10% (as in 100# could read 90#)" and no spring shims to valve hat spacing are within spec. Will pull the vales out of the RH shortly.
Tom
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Don't think this is caused by tuning , once you get the valves out we need a peek inside the exhaust ports . Looks like either loose valve guides or a piston clearance or ring problem .
Dusty
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I will take some pics as I go.
I was hoping that this would be an issue that one would look at and say...... That is caused by the...........
Thank you so far!
Tom
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I will take some pics as I go.
I was hoping that this would be an issue that one would look at and say...... That is caused by the...........
Thank you so far!
Tom
Oh man , I could be rich :laugh:
Seriously , it appears to be burned oil , carbon caused by an overly rich mixture is usually not grainy and will be soft . This looks like a hard carbon buildup , and you stated it felt like sand , so ...
So now the exploration starts , how is oil getting into the combustion chamber ? Only two paths , around the pistons or thru the valve guides . Unless your breather is plugged up and the oil is coming in thru the intake . Does this bike still have an airbox , and if so is it oily looking ?
Dusty
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Dusty,
My explanation of what I'm feeling has led you to something. I didn't know if it would help. So...
Remember this engine had been cleaned up, but some parts reused since it was supposed to be a low mile engine when I got it from a reputable Guzzi dealer.
Let me elaborate. I can feel a few grains, it does NOT feel like sand paper. The grains come off on my finger. Very fine ground salt? The black is almost powder on the piston. You can CAREFULLY take a single edge razor blade and shave off the black and it sits on the blade like powder. When you press the powder between your fingers, it doesn't really feel wet, but it does turn your fingers very black.
The head does need a dremel wire brush, but it does come off easily. Only a very few. very small hard carbon build up spots. Nothing like an old worn out engine that you darn near have to take a chisel to to get the hard carbon off.
Thanks again so far!
Tom
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OK , information is always good . Show us the spark plugs .
Still , if the engine was making a noise , that is unlikely to be caused by a tuning issue , with the exception of pre-ignition . Which if I remember from the other thread seems unlikely . Did you do a leak down test on this engine , and if so what was the result ?
Dusty
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No, I did not do a leak down test. I do not have the equipment to do it, yes I know HF sells a kit.
Both sides did have 150# compression dry.
The rings I reused as well as the piston and cylinder. All seemed fine to me and was told they were by the shop.
I have been following the threads on VHB 30's and if it should be rich or lean to run right.
I had planned to pull this side, RH to just double check the vales, guides and spring strength. Then I found the build up just like on the LH.
Again, I was hoping with the pics and NO background someone would say that that is a classic case of YYYYY and you need to adjust or replace your ZZZZZ.
EDIT: There is a saying here that maybe Chuck started about ignition issues being fuel and vise versa. What I'm finding may be leading to another statement about weak spark loves a rich mixture. Maybe I'm too rich due to a weak spark?
Thanks again so far!!!!!!
Tom
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Some more pics:
(https://i.ibb.co/0rgDHdj/1000-plug-120200822-210549.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rgDHdj) (https://i.ibb.co/M9nTMnZ/1000-plug-220200822-210614.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M9nTMnZ) (https://i.ibb.co/xmbJw2R/1000-EXH20200822-210847.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xmbJw2R) (https://i.ibb.co/0QfDXZR/1000-int-JW20200822-210640.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0QfDXZR)
The exhaust valve looks cleaner and more tan than the picture shows.
The plug is two views. I hate pics some times, it really looks about the same all the way around.
The LH plug looks about the same as this one pictured, pictured is the RH.
Tom
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Oil ring installed upside down would cause oil pumping, dependant on the type used though, but it would not cause a noise. It is a puzzle.
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Oil ring installed upside down would cause oil pumping, dependant on the type used though, but it would not cause a noise. It is a puzzle.
I installed the oil ring upside down when rebuilding the Lemans engine but it was smoking. This was just from a few miles of riding from new:
(https://i.ibb.co/6w2J6Wn/61454138248-77799-A3-F-0-C7-C-40-AE-A77-A-1-F7-E327-D8811.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BGDzbSQ/61454136774-AB97-A6-DC-3-F35-4-CE9-B4-F8-A6328-D8-D29-F9.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Cs3zzLg/61454221202-634-B376-E-6-CBB-44-D1-8-BE2-864-F3674041-A.jpg)
In this case I just pulled the oil ring, flipped it, installed the head and it's perfectly fine now. I don't know how I missed it but I did and it wasn't a big deal, didn't even replace the head gasket.
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Glazed bores, out of round bores, loose guides, (Valve to guide clearance) It's an oiling issue. I would also measure the pin dia. to small end bush dia.
bottom of the piston what do they look like? low miles? who broke it in was it hammed when cold (cold oil) who knows
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Glazed bores, out of round bores, loose guides, (Valve to guide clearance) It's an oiling issue. I would also measure the pin dia. to small end bush dia.
bottom of the piston what do they look like? low miles? who broke it in was it hammed when cold (cold oil) who knows
Unfortunately the OP is chasing his tail until he at least does a piston to cylinder wall test , and gets deeper into the engine . I agree and said as much , this looks like oil , it could be coming from the top , the bottom , or thru the intake tract . The noise he is hearing at a certain RPM is probably indicative of something , but it may not even be related to the oil passing into the combustion chambers .
Time to forget what he thinks he knows , and go back to the beginning .
Dusty
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Since everyone feels it's an oil issue, then I will have to look at the rings and piston especially. I really thought it was too rich.
About the heads. Somewhere not to long ago a PO had the heads done it appears. Looks like new guides, guide to valve feels good, better than my Eldo which sounds fine. The valve seats must have been ground, there are added spring shims at least on one head. Valve springs on the other head are withing spec per a spring gauge. So is the clearance from the shims to the valve hat without the spring installed.
The one thing I did find odd, there are valve seals. I have heard about doing this, but have never seen it.
On the air box being the source of the oil. No air box. Pods. This is a Loop with a 1000 round fin.
I will play with it more today and see if I can find the source of the oiling.
Thank you all again!!
Tom
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Both sides did have 150# compression dry.
The compression readings on my g5 when new
were 184psi on one side and 187 on the other
with hot engine fully opened throttles.
Malc