Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MMRanch on September 01, 2020, 09:29:35 PM
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It seems like the clutch pull on my V7II has gotten stiffer over time . In order to be able to find neutral the clutch has to be pulled in all-the-way. It seems like I'm being mean to the clutch cable because it take so much to pull it. :undecided:
So , what are you other guys doing to make it easier to pull ?
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I have washed out the cable with Kero to flush out any dirt; the Breva one is Teflon coated so I don't use oil. I did put a bit of oil just in the 90 degree bend as it comes out of the lever and lubed the pivot pins. Make sure the cable is traveling unrestricted in the slot in the lever and not bending around it as you pull it in.
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A generous couple squirts of cable lube have worked fine for my V7II. Are the levers at both ends free and lubed as well?
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It's an EV? Check the routing, a lot of times it has a pretty sharp bend around the air box. That area can also get rusty if moisture migrates down the cable inside the sheath.
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It's an EV? Check the routing, a lot of times it has a pretty sharp bend around the air box. That area can also get rusty if moisture migrates down the cable inside the sheath.
Brad
It seems like the clutch pull on my V7II has gotten stiffer over time .
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Assuming everything in stock condition is working correctly. I use Moose Racing (Easy Pull) clutch system on almost all my vintage bikes. Tremendously better. :thumb:
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Fellas , this is a V7II , not an EV or a vintage bike .
How many miles ? This sounds like the thrust washer problem , sorry .
Dusty
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My bad, I saw the v and II and thought V11,, never mind. :boozing:
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To Dusty's point, some V7II's had an issue with a thrust washer on the crankshaft. (Yeah, that could be a big deal.)
Are you actually saying the lever is harder to pull, or that you have to pull it further back and you keep having to adjust it?
If I'm understanding your original post, it sounds as if it is actually becoming hard to pull, but please clarify.
Another thing I have experienced, although on a completely different bike, was that the pivot pin on the rear of the transmission for the actuating lever had partially seized up. This happened on a friends bike. He was constantly running out of adjustment and breaking cables. Once we freed up the pivot point, everything was fine.
John Henry
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Doesn't have to be a vintage bike. The Moose Easy pulls are still worth using on any bike that has a normally stiff clutch out of the box.
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Doesn't have to be a vintage bike. The Moose Easy pulls are still worth using on any bike that has a normally stiff clutch out of the box.
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True , except the V7 doesn't have a stiff clutch , something is wrong
Dusty
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My V7III has the lightest clutch of any bike I have owned. A II should be the same.
ZZ
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My V7III has the lightest clutch of any bike I have owned. A II should be the same.
You’d expect that, but I remember sitting on a showroom V7III and being envious of the levers, thinking “why do they get such a light pull?” Granted, I don’t religiously lubricate mine though, which could be a factor. That said, all the previous bike models I’ve owned were lighter, including two Japanese bikes from the 70s.
(Cue the curmudgeons who’ve owned older Guzzis and their tales of “you want to see a stiff clutch?...”)
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I DID qualify my statement. I also asked for clarification from the OP.
ZZ
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As I was saying if everything else is in normal working order a moose easy pull clutch is a great upgrade. It's just a bit of information for folks that may find it useful. Nothing more. Let me Dust myself off a minute here.
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Fellas , this is a V7II , not an EV or a vintage bike .
How many miles ? This sounds like the thrust washer problem , sorry .
Dusty
Dusty may be right here. How many miles? The thrust washer usually goes in the first few thousand. Constant clutch lever adjustments are a sure sign. Only happens to a small percentage of V7 2's. Stay focused people.
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Fellas , this is a V7II , not an EV or a vintage bike .
How many miles ? This sounds like the thrust washer problem , sorry .
Dusty
Forgot about the thrust washer problem Dusty. Does that make it stiff to pull or just not work with the crankshaft movement?
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Could be the clutch cable is resting on the cylinders and melting the sheath? That was also an issue on the earlier V7's. Happened to my '14 V7 Special. Guzzi's fix was a large rubber insulator on the cable that also melted.
Check the routing of the cable.
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Wow , thanks for all the replies guys .
How many miles ? This sounds like the thrust washer problem , sorry . It is almost 17K miles. The original cable broke about 2 inches from the handle bar grip. The new cable is hard to pull too.
The lever at the transmission is easy to move with out the cable hooked to it but the pressure it take to compress the clutch is more than any of the 30+ bikes I've had/ridden in the past.
When the bike was new , it kept running out of adjustment for the first 5000 miles , so I did the adjustment on the transmission (lock nut and set-screw) to make more adjustment for the cable. I have put wheel-bearing grease on the drums at each end of the cable .
I don't think its normal to need this much pressure .
What about the "Throw-out-bearing" what type is in there ? I wonder if I'm pushing the clutch rod through what-ever it is pushing on ?
Truthfully , I'm a little disappointed by Guzzi Engineering . The push-rod V motor turned the right way and the drive shaft is smart , but I'm thinking "how can they screw-up the clutch that much" ?
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Check the clutch rod thrust bearing is actually fitted, I read in Dave Richardsons new book this exact issue with a customers new bike and it was missing the thrust bearing from the factory.
Ciao
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The easiest way to check the crankshaft thrust washer is take a screwdriver and through the timing plug pry the crank aft and watch it as you pull the clutch. It will move forward. I move it back and forth making note of how much it moves. Up to maybe a millimeter is probly fine but more than that is worrisome
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Dusty may be right here. How many miles? The thrust washer usually goes in the first few thousand. Constant clutch lever adjustments are a sure sign. Only happens to a small percentage of V7 2's. Stay focused people.
Does that make the clutch action stiffer, or just requiring a greater lever throw ?
Different symptoms.
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The easiest way to check the crankshaft thrust washer is take a screwdriver and through the timing plug pry the crank aft and watch it as you pull the clutch. It will move forward. I move it back and forth making note of how much it moves. Up to maybe a millimeter is probly fine but more than that is worrisome
I was talking about the clutch pushrod thrust/release bearing.
Ciao
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I was talking about the clutch pushrod thrust/release bearing.
Ciao
I know Phil, I was just contributing to general knowledge :cheesy:
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The last time I found the clutch pull to be hard/stiff (it had snuck up on me), I pulled off the cable & found a broken inner strand. I replaced the cable with a new one, and all was well once more. It sounds like you've already tried replacing the cable, with no joy.
Re-routing the cable can make a difference.
One check of the trust bearing can be done by eye - the lever arm at the gearbox end rests on the outer body. This outer body should be more or less flush with the gearbox cover. Sometimes you need to degrease & hose off the rear cover to be able to see past collected gunk. Access is not particularly easy, the swingarm is in the way. If it's recessed, it's worth checking the state of the thrust bearing - it may have collapsed. You'll have to remove the clutch operating arm (DO check the pivot, clean & polish it) and pull out the outer body. Behind that you'll find the thrust bearing (a 3 piece affair), easily removed with a magnet. Guzzi has changed these - the newer ones are supposed to be more robust.
Afterwards, adjust the clutch again, first at the bottom, then at the top.
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through the timing plug pry the crank aft
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This is my first guzzi , is the timing plug on the front or rear ? Are the clutch throw-out bearings troublesome on Guzzis ?
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I think he might be talking about the inspection plug on the RHS of the bell housing. I figure it must be a legacy thing, left over from the bad old days when timing was done manually. I've only used it it to confirm that I have oil in there when my clutch starts slipping.
Although thrust bearings have been known to fail on occasion, they are usually quite robust for such a delicate thing. I change mine out when I replace the clutch due to the failure of the the clutch push rod oil seal - for me, about each 100,000km or so. I haven't had a thrust bearing fail (,yet).
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Wow , thanks for all the replies guys .
The lever at the transmission is easy to move with out the cable hooked to it but the pressure it take to compress the clutch is more than any of the 30+ bikes I've had/ridden in the past.
If I am reading this correctly it sounds like the cable and or cable routing is the issue.
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Not at all , the problem is the push rod going into the bellhousing is too hard to push. Something is not right in there. I've never seen the inside so I'm lost at what it might be. Its felt like a regular pull when it was new but with-in the first 3-5K miles got stiffer till the first cable couldn't take it no more and started fraying from to much force , its not any easier with the new cable --- ain't no worse either ...
Going on the responses I'm getting ... its not a common problem. :undecided:
The end-play thing on the crankshaft wouldn't account for a hard pull .
Phil posted with a customers new bike and it was missing the thrust bearing from the factory
That could be it ? Without the bearing on the end of the shaft it would meet the resistance of the spinning clutch plate till it wore a hole in it over time.
I'm going to see if I can find a parts diagram that is easy to read.
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Clutch II in the Spare Parts Manual is explicit. If you don't have it already, it's freely downloadable from all sorts of sources - AF1, Cadre, Stein Dinse, thisoldtractor, & more. Second step is still to get your head right under the bike & see how the outer body is lining up.
If you are going to have to get at it, best access is with the swingarm removed. It can be got at with the swingarm tied up, but after taking the rear wheel off, there's not much more involved.
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How does a malfunctioning thrust washer translate into a more difficult clutch pull ?
Is the weight of the clutch pull, not just a function of the force required to compress the springs via the associated mechanism ?
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How does a malfunctioning thrust washer translate into a more difficult clutch pull ?
Is the weight of the clutch pull, not just a function of the force required to compress the springs via the associated mechanism ?
Because if it s actually not fitted or has fallen apart it starts grinding its way into the piston and you loose clutch travel and get masses of friction from the piston damage I guess. Like I said Its from the latest book by a guy that's been working on and selling them for 30 odd years. it's not hard to check anyway I dont think.
Ciao
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So malik and Lucky phil
Can I replace the Thrust bearing with-out pulling the motor ?
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through the timing plug pry the crank aft
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This is my first guzzi , is the timing plug on the front or rear ? Are the clutch throw-out bearings troublesome on Guzzis ?
Yep, I called the rubber plug in the right side bellhousing the timing plug, that’s where you used to see the flywheel marks for timing. What you’d be checking in this case would be crankshaft end play. After reading your posts again, I doubt it’s the trouble but I don’t know what is. I’ve heard of a couple throw out bearing anomaly’s but never had any trouble with our smallblocks so it’ll take someone smarter than I
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So malik and Lucky phil
Can I replace the Thrust bearing with-out pulling the motor ?
Yes I believe its very easy to check but I haven't worked on a SB but others might want to chime in with the details. Item 9 page 65 was missing/not installed at the factory.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/spare_parts_catalog_v7_classic_2008.pdf
Ciao
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So malik and Lucky phil
Can I replace the Thrust bearing with-out pulling the motor ?
Yes. Re-read Reply #24. Should all be there.
You won't need to take the motor out. You will need to remove the rear wheel. You might be able to get to it without taking the swingarm off (tie it up), but you'll have clear access with the swingarm removed - and that's a stunningly easy job.
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If it is none of the stuff mentioned already, maybe you are just getting old and feeble.
It will eventually happen to all who live long enough.
It has happened to me. I can no longer strangle cows for the slaughterhouse.
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:laugh:
Jim wrote
If it is none of the stuff mentioned already, maybe you are just getting old and feeble.
It will eventually happen to all who live long enough.
I hope to live so long !
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I've only got three bikes at the time , but its hard to pass a bike shop with-out stopping to pull a few clutch levers . I'm sure it not just me . The clutch pull motion is meeting way to much resistance . I've already pulled (over stressed ) one clutch cable in two and now headed to doing the same thing again.
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Alright , so my next move is to take the rear tire off and maybe the swing arm , then have a look at what's behind the clutch release shaft. That a good picture !
:huh: nothing is going to fall out that I can't put back is it ??? :blank:
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No, nothing will fall out. You'll have trouble getting the thrust bearing to come out - that smear of oil helps to keep it in. I use a magnet held against a screwdriver to take the 3 parts of it out.
(The photo wouldn't work - I'll try another source)
The older version used by Guzzi has cupped washers, the updated version has flat washers.
Do ensure that the o-ring on the outer body is sound. They are usually quite robust, and especially with your mileage, should be pristine.
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I've been thinking about this.
The hand lever is hard to pull. If I read right, the cable has a Teflon or something liner. Could the liner be melted or binding?
Can you remove the cable from the hand lever as well as the trans lever and see if you can push and pull the cable through its housing?
If the cable moves freely in its housing, then the pro let is elsewhere.
Your symptoms make me think of how my non lined cables start to feel when I need to lube them.
Just a thought,
Tom
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While you are in there Ranch:
watch for the spring that keeps the actuating lever from pushing on the bearing under normal use; they can go a long way once you release the cable. :shocked:
there is an adjustment on that actuating lever. It is a pain to get at with the swingarm still on. it would be a good time to set the adjustment there, then work back to the others such as the one on the clutch lever. You want the one on the arm to be sitting as close to 90 deg as you can to get the maximum mechanical advantage when using the clutch. The adjustment is a "bolt" with flats on the top and fixed with a lock nut. The other end has a sort of ball shaped rocker which works on the extension that comes out of the thrust bearing setup.
the plate part of that extension should be fairly close to flush with the gearbox casing. if it is quite a ways in then Houston, there may be a problem.
when removing the swingarm there will be a washer on the (I'm pretty sure) rhs side bearing. That is used to cenralise the swingarm. When you go to reassemble there is a sequence to go through. Firm up that side first, lock, then firm up the other side.
while you are in there it is a good time to grease the splines. Luigi lost his greasepot back in 1921 and he's still looking for it. :grin:
I give the bearings set in the gearbox casing a good spin by hand to get any grease in them redistributed and put the balls in a different spot. As the mileage creeps up on the bike I actually carefully ping the outer seal and put a heap more grease in them as well.
As Mal has said, the job is pretty straight forward but if in doubt, ask. Mal has thousands of kms under his belt with smallblocks so knows them pretty much inside out.
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there is an adjustment on that actuating lever. It is a pain to get at with the swingarm
Yea , I found that one when the original cable ran out of adjustment 12,000 miles ago. The arm at the transmission is really close to being 90 deg. w/transmission. When I get into getting it done I'll put a allen head bolt in it instead of that mini-spoke wrench head. I've got two rides in Sept for the V7 so I'm going to let it ride till Oct.
I had a thought about a longer arm at the transmission ? Do the Guzzi Big-Blocks use a similar system ? It seems that an extra 1/2" of leverage would make a world of difference. ? :huh:
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Tom thanks for the thought ... its a new cable , free moving and clean as a new cable inside and out ... but it feels just like the old on did in use.
If I ever get my hands on the springs inside the clutch its-self ... I'll be figuring a way to loose some of the tension , there ain't no way that 48HP needs that much pressure to hold it to the flywheel. I've ridden 148HP bikes that didn't have that much pressure.
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It would be a good idea to bail up some other V7 riders & compare clutch pulls. The pulls on mine & others I've ridden are firm, but not hard. I've found that the cable routing does have an effect. I aim that right angle bend at the top towards the rear now, rather than frontwards as it came, and at the same time try to minimise any other bends & touches along the way. Some light oil where the top end of the outer goes into the clutch perch, and at the bottom end where the outer fits into that bracket on top of the gearbox also helps. Again the pivot pin on the clutch operating arm has to move freely. The spring behind it is only light, and without the cable attached, should be a one finger push & return. I would also try changing the clutch lever (handlebar end) and the perch, before taking the gearbox out - there's so much work in that job it should be avoided as long as possible. Best of luck.
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See if it translates as it shows "not available".
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32803624065.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dHbhDFf
Checked, and yes. I have found these to be very good indeed and beautiful quality. because of the shape of the actual lever i can get a bit more travel than the original set-up. which is good as I have them adjusted to be as close to the bar as possible due to my short fingers.
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Muzzy those looks good , I'm getting a pair of them ! :azn:
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Muzzy those looks good , I'm getting a pair of them ! :azn:
Those are for the Breva of course. In AliExpress they are listed under ropes and cables. Those ones are adjustable, foldable and extendable. Already paid for themselves when the bike fell over in gravel. Folded up nicely. I see there are some now where you can get them with the Guzzi eagle engraved on the lever. my red and black combo match the Breva beautifully.
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Come up and try mine, MM. Check your messages.
Sarah
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Take the clutch lever and perch off the handlebars, mount to a 3/4" pope or another set of bars. With the cable ran as straight as possible, check to see if the pull has lessened much. This will tell if routeing is the problem.
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(https://i.ibb.co/CJ7Btnm/Easy-Pull-Cable.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CJ7Btnm)
I want to go to the Fall Creek Falls outing on Saturday (26th) for a day ride. I hope to be there about noon or so. There might be a V-7 or two there ? The V7III's at Sloans' all have have nice easy clutches and the V-9 Roamer that I had was a nice easy clutch.
My question is are all the V7-II's like mine ?
I've installed a pair of those adjustable handle levers and have ordered one of those "Easy-Pull" contraptions from e-bay .
I've had some success with some larger diameter cable ends adapters I made . With them all greased up , the cable strait as I can get it , and the adjustable levers on #2 or #3 then I can live with it till the Easy-Pull thing gets here.
I know this might sound strange ?
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Its been my experience that springs loose their tension over time - especially if they are left in a compressed state for any length of time . And we all know that metal expands and gets weaker as it get hot/warmer.
So ...
To help my clutch springs loose tension sooner , I'm running the springs through cycles of cooling down from hot with the clutch pulled , then staying compressed till I need to ride again --- then repeat.
After only four cycles it seems better already !
(https://i.ibb.co/CJ7Btnm/Easy-Pull-Cable.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CJ7Btnm)
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Just went to compare my V7II against Doug's Roamer, the V7 definitely has a heavier clutch pull. Not a drastic difference, but noticeable.
Sarah
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So I've been watching the TV show "House" on amazon prime ... where the team knocks around ideas for the ailing patient ... spitting out ideas, ideas getting shot down, etc ... was laughing a bit reading this as it sounds like a Moto Guzzi version of a House episode. :grin:
The thing that bothers me about this is the pull (tension) has gotten worse and worse over time and a properly routed new cable didn't fix that.
I would take a look into that V7 ii rare-ish issue of the crank thrust bearing. Lots of great info here: https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-engine-failures-clutch-adjust-notice.16098/
It seems these usually died in the 500 miles - 3000 mile range, so maybe, and hopefully, that isn't your issue, but worth checking. And one symptom of this is frequent clutch adjustments ... adjust free play, then it tightens up, adjust free play again, and it tightens up, etc etc. And it seems like you mentioned that. And once it is worn more and more you would get to the point that you just can't pull the clutch lever in any more.
For the clutch rod thrust bearing, if one of those is worn a bit, does that really make the clutch pull overly stiff? I'm not sure of the symptoms on that. And also not sure how common that is.
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So I've been watching the TV show "House" on amazon prime ... where the team knocks around ideas for the ailing patient ... spitting out ideas, ideas getting shot down, etc ... was laughing a bit reading this as it sounds like a Moto Guzzi version of a House episode. :grin:
The thing that bothers me about this is the pull (tension) has gotten worse and worse over time and a properly routed new cable didn't fix that.
I would take a look into that V7 ii rare-ish issue of the crank thrust bearing. Lots of great info here: https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-engine-failures-clutch-adjust-notice.16098/
It seems these usually died in the 500 miles - 3000 mile range, so maybe, and hopefully, that isn't your issue, but worth checking. And one symptom of this is frequent clutch adjustments ... adjust free play, then it tightens up, adjust free play again, and it tightens up, etc etc. And it seems like you mentioned that. And once it is worn more and more you would get to the point that you just can't pull the clutch lever in any more.
For the clutch rod thrust bearing, if one of those is worn a bit, does that really make the clutch pull overly stiff? I'm not sure of the symptoms on that. And also not sure how common that is.
My suggestion re this was not wear but the bearing was missing from the factory.
Ciao
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As far as I know, the V7II has the same 6 speed as the V7III. (I am aware the ratios are different on 1st and 6th.) Anyway, it's not likely anything else changed between these variants with regard to the gearbox.
So, although I can agree to slight variations from bike to bike, they should all be pretty close. As I said before, my V7III has a very light pull.
The OP already stated it used to be okay.THAT MEANS SOMETHING HAS CHANGED!!!
Rather than masking the trouble with some aftermarket gizzy, you NEED to address the source of the trouble. If it isn't a cable, lever, or actuating arm, you have to dig deeper. If you have something wrong in there, it could possibly lead to other damage and cost more to fix.
Trying to mask the problem with, in this case a torque multiplier, is not fixing your trouble. It is only masking it.
John Henry
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^^^^ Wat ZZ sez.
Remember the airliner crash? The pilot was "Sum Ding Wong.." true story, I saw it on the TV.. :evil:
:smiley:
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I'll get at pulling the throw-out-bearing soon as I can . I need to use the bike this next week for a Ozark ride next week so I can't go taking it apart right now.
I've got a Corbin two seater seat on it , a pair of 40L HB side cases , and a 40L trunk ... its my "WE-BIKE"
so its the ride for next week -
The W-650 is waiting for a chain ,
My Suzuki S-40 is a fun bike for ridding solo and can do two up for short trips ... but
The V-7II is the one I need next week. I'll just grin and bear it .
As strange as it sounds ... the measures to weaken the clutch springs has already helped a lot , its not as smooth and easy as the Roamer was and probably never will be , but its better than it was two weeks ago.
I'll post what happens when I pull the tire off and get a look into the bearing situation , Thanks for all the ideas - I at least know where to start soon as I can get to it. :bow:
You fellers are a good bunch to have on hand ... especially if ya have a Guzzi in the other hand ! :smiley: