Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: rjamesohio on September 03, 2020, 08:44:28 AM
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I had a discussion with a friend this morning and he said he would NEVER buy a motorcycle without ABS and proclaimed that any non-ABS bike was a “death trap“. His words, not mine.
When I look at the brakes on my Breva 1100 - which does not have the ABS option- I have a hard time thinking that bike is a “death Trap”.
Collective thoughts? I know my old Cali with linked brakes was great in a panic stop but that would not have pulsed either. I think it’s more a case off riding smart and not overriding your or the bike’s capabilities...
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“Essential” would suggest that you will not survive without it..
Clearly that’s not the case, but the opinions as to it’s efficacy are many and varied, it’s been discussed at length here in the past. Most people come down in favour.
If I could get it off my Norge and V85 without introducing a fault code or similar, I would.
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If I could get it off my Norge and V85 without introducing a fault code or similar, I would.
I don't know about the V85, but you can turn it off on the Norge.
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funny for a Breva 1100 owner to say that, have you never locked up the rear brake?? I always feel mine is very touchy, I have locked up the rear many times-- wish it had ABS
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I don't know about the V85, but you can turn it off on the Norge.
Yes, but it comes back when you turn the key off and back on again. Unless there is a method to full time disable it ?
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Of course it's not essential. I've got about 500,000 miles on motorcycles, and 20,000 of those were on bikes with ABS.
It has some benefits, but it's like people who say:
"I would NEVER leave the house without my smartphone and GPS. NEVER!"
"I would NEVER drive a car without an airbag!"
and things like that. Something we happily did without for our whole lives - how can it suddenly become "essential"?
Lannis
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Yes, but it comes back when you turn the key off and back on again. Unless there is a method to full time disable it ?
True, and I don't believe it can be permanently disabled.
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As ABS becomes more common on motorcycles I see more people claiming they will never buy a bike without it.
Certainly ABS today is a far cry from the first bike I had which was equipped back in '93, that experience got me to swear off ABS until I bought my V85.
People have vast differences in the amount of risk they are willing to take on. Motorcycling at its core is a risky proposition so I understand the desire to try to mitigate that risk as much as possible. They desire ABS for the same reason many people search for a good, safe, helmet and pay a lot of money for quality riding gear.
People try to make the ABS issue about manliness and riding skill, it doesn't have to be that way. Another person on a motorcycle is one more car driver on the road who will pay more attention to motorcyclist.
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True, and I don't believe it can be permanently disabled.
I do like the feel of the braking action with it disabled, the whole thing feels smoother when under heavy use, but the flashing amber warning on the panel is a pain.
As to the OP’s question..
There are some aspects of my bikes operation I prefer to have ultimate control over, even if the ECU can do a “better” job. I don’t like handing command to a circuit board, but I have no easy choice.
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Really a hundred years of motorcycles came before ABS.. Not thinking its really essential. Yes you need to learn to stop correctly.. When to use front, and rear, and both.. Back in my years working at a car dealer I had many customers start yelling because the battery went dead in their keyless remote. "Well how am I going to get in my car??"... Yes some aspects make things safer.. but also I think marketing makes people feel you cant live without it.
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The discussion on this subject is very subjective, here’s my take based on my 55 years of experience.
All but two years of my riding exposure has been on bikes with no ABS or TRACTION CONTROL. I have never locked either end of a bike in an emergency reaction stop. This comes from 10s of thousands of miles in every condition one can imagine. The only bike I’ve owned with these features was a 2015 1400 tourer and during the two years I owned the bike I really never noticed either of these features pro or con.
That being said, I would advise any new rider to start out with a modern motorcycle with these features as it takes years and a lot of miles and situations to achieve the skills to react appropriately in an emergency situations.
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funny for a Breva 1100 owner to say that, have you never locked up the rear brake?? I always feel mine is very touchy, I have locked up the rear many times-- wish it had ABS
LOL. That's because I've only owned the bike for 3 days! But good to know about the sensitive rear brake.
When my friend proclaimed that any non-ABS bike was a 'death trap' I simply said "Gee I'd better sell it then". Right now I think the Breva is great and most people that own them agree once you take care of the obvious things that Moto Guzzi should have fixed. Mine is about halfway there.
That said - since ABS was an option - I wonder how difficult it would be to retrofit it? My BMW has it, so I guess I'm not totally at risk :)
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Of course it's not essential. I've got about 500,000 miles on motorcycles, and 20,000 of those were on bikes with ABS.
It has some benefits, but it's like people who say:
"I would NEVER leave the house without my smartphone and GPS. NEVER!"
"I would NEVER drive a car without an airbag!"
and things like that. Something we happily did without for our whole lives - how can it suddenly become "essential"?
Lannis
What Lannis said.
I'm all for ABS, just haven't been interested in a bike (so far) that happens to have it. Let's face it, It takes some skill to turn and stop on a bike. ABS is certainly helpful, especially for newbies or those who don't practice emergency braking consistently. And braking hard in the wet with ABS is a lot less daunting.
But there is a flip side:
I remember seeing in "Freakonomics" (A great read BTW) that people compensate for safety devices by being more careless and/or taking more risks, so the net effect of more safety upgrades is not as great as one would think. The author jokingly proposed that one way to get safer car drivers would be to attach a spear on the driving wheel, aimed directly at the driver's chest! It's likely that ABS encourages some folks to ride a little more on the edge.
And besides that, I find that when I use absolutes like "NEVER", it usually comes back to bite me in the donkey.
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I will add that perhaps once a rider gets used to ABS, riding without it is potentially more treacherous. Teresa has always claimed ownership of ABS equipped motorbikes, but when we rented in NZ, she was on a non-ABSer and ended up going down on a rain slickened road with rear wheel lockup....and she’s a good rider.
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It is NOT essential. Modern systems ARE beneficial. In fall if you find dead leaves in front of a stop sign. If you’re riding and a thunderstorm crosses your path. When you’re on a wet road and someone turns in front of you. ABS is very nice in those situations. However, all of those situations happened to me on my bikes without ABS and I survived with nary a scratch. Maybe I did pucker up so hard as to leave an indention of my nether regions on the seat, but that will happen with ABS too.
Nothing can take the place of learning your bike, it’s limits, and your limits. Try not to exceed those limits and you’ll find having ABS is an afterthought.
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I will add that perhaps once a rider gets used to ABS, riding without it is potentially more treacherous. Teresa has always claimed ownership of ABS equipped motorbikes, but when we rented in NZ, she was on a non-ABSer and ended up going down on a rain slickened road with rear wheel lockup....and she’s a good rider.
This is an excellent point.
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Nice, but NOPE :thumb:
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It might be controversial to say this but If you truly know how to scan for dangers around you when you're riding and you truly know how to operate a motorcycle 10/10, you shouldn't need it. Had a BMW K75S with ABS for 19 riding seasons, never once used it! Been riding since 1971 and never needed it.
I'm not stupid...If someone wanted to install ABS on my 1200 Sport, I'd say do it.
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With over a quarter million miles on Ambos and eldos, I got used to poor brakes. Same way with the early semi trucks. The brake pedal was pushed to the floor and it felt you were gaining speed. If you were stopping on Fri you had to start on Thurs (Well, not quit that bad.)
I was drunk driving at night over an ice covered bridge when I hit the brakes. ABS didn't help.
Tex
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I have a b1100, but it doesn't have a super sensitive rear, works just as I would like it to. (shrug)
I also have a v9 with ABS, I know it works as I have intentionaly made it activate, but have yet to feel it in real world riding. I mostly leave it on, unlike the v85, the amber light doesn't flash, just stays. At speed of 3.11mph and less ABS automatically deactivates.
Like all safety equipment, it's great to have it when you need it. But it's certainly not a deal breaker for any competent rider.
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My Harley had ABS. Rather than use a tone ring like everyone else in the world (too unsightly), Harley uses a special wheel bearing and sensor. The system doesn't have the sensitivity of a tone ring system. In Washington DC, in Georgetown, there is a hill with a cobblestone street. The hill is right next to the exorcist steps, and is steep. It is where the piedmont plateau had been cut by the Potomac river to the level of the coastal plain. My point? I had taken this street many times with and with out ABS, but on the 800 pound Harley together with the cobblestones, it basically turned off my brakes, and I almost went flying through the stop sign at the bottom onto M street. I hate ABS, and I hate having to bleed ABS systems.
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My Harley had ABS. Rather than use a tone ring like everyone else in the world (too unsightly), Harley uses a special wheel bearing and sensor. The system doesn't have the sensitivity of a tone ring system. In Washington DC, in Georgetown, there is a hill with a cobblestone street. The hill is right next to the exorcist steps, and is steep. It is where the piedmont plateau had been cut by the Potomac river to the level of the coastal plain. My point? I had taken this street many times with and with out ABS, but on the 800 pound Harley together with the cobblestones, it basically turned off my brakes, and I almost went flying through the stop sign at the bottom onto M street. I hate ABS, and I hate having to bleed ABS systems.
THIS! There's ABS and there's abs. They are not all the same. I had a Road Glide with ABS...absolutely hated it. On numerous occasions, it tried to get me killed. Pavement ripples leading up to a stop sign or light would drive the rear ABS nuts, causing it to cycle to the point where you effectively had no rear brake. On wet pavement, I ended up in the middle of an intersection on more than one occasion because the ABS would kick in causing me to overshoot my stopping point.
On the other hand, BMW's ABS will make a believer out of you.
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Not essential UNTIL you need it.. no matter how good a rider you are something will catch you out eventually, It may bring you down, It will certainly scare the shit out of you, it may even kill you. ABS may or may not save you but it may give you another chance and thats nice to have.
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Never had a problem with the ABS system on the Norge, but it's only been used once or maybe twice and that was when I first purchased the bike.
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I’d ask the friend if they wear the highest quality gear, including $1,000 helmets, airbag vests, neck protectors, and Kevlar jackets/pants, have been through multiple safety training courses, etc. If their answer is yes, then I’d ask why they haven’t built a roll cage around their bike’s frame yet.
I’ve skidded right into the middle of an intersection once during rain on a motorcycle with ABS in the rain. What is essential is that I need to be more consistent with my own riding skills and have better awareness of environmental conditions in order to be safe and not harm anyone.
Motorcycling is dangerous. Know the risks, practice, execute.
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es·sen·tial, /əˈsen(t)SHəl/, adjective, 1. absolutely necessary; extremely important.
It is "extremely important" that my motorcycle is fast and comfortable and has ABS. So it is "essential."
But ABS is not "absolutely necessary" in a manner such as having oxygen to breathe and water to drink. So ABS is not "essential."
A more meaningful question involves willingness to risk riding without it, or one's ignorance of the risks and statistics. I am willing to ride without ABS, but feel when riding, it is a worthwhile feature to reduce my overall risks, just as grippy tires are. Grippy tires often don't last as long as others. What is the advantage of not having ABS? I can't remember. In the early days it increased stopping distances. Now?
ABS works effectively on a slippery dirt downhill trail on a minority of bikes. The ABS switch is good to have.
Even at the end of our life it is impossible to know for sure if ABS would have saved our life or did save our life. But it is always possible it will save our life when riding, or maybe even when simply crossing the street in front of one of those invisible motorcycles.
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Nothing much to add. Many many millions of miles ridden before ABS and the vast majority of folks lived through it.
The first bike I purchased that had ABS I actually kind of scoffed at the idea, but one day the ABS did actually save my butt. I might not be here without it.
Even though ABS saved me that day I have ZERO qualms riding a bike without ABS.
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With over a quarter million miles on Ambos and eldos, I got used to poor brakes. Same way with the early semi trucks. The brake pedal was pushed to the floor and it felt you were gaining speed. If you were stopping on Fri you had to start on Thurs (Well, not quit that bad.)
I was drunk driving at night over an ice covered bridge when I hit the brakes. ABS didn't help.
Tex
Tex, those Ambos and Eldos definitely had anti lock brakes without any of the cost or complications of ABS! :grin:
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I’m on a 2000 mile tour at the moment. On Tuesday my rear brake developed a pinhole leak where the rubber line is swaged into a fitting. I’ve ordered a replacement to arrive where I’ll be on Saturday and will install/bleed it in an hour, in a parking lot. Last time I checked you couldn’t do that so easily with an ABS system, pumps etc being in the line, and thinking about it cemented in my mind why I’m not at all interested in ABS: it’s just not part of the simple, elemental motorcycling experience I’ve enjoyed since age nine, decades ago. What others may think about that is of no interest to me, I’m too busy living my own life based on many years of experience and skill developed along the way.
What would probably be better for my use is a drum rear brake, as per my R100GS on which the rear drum has worked with no service at all except occasional cable adjustments for 106,000 miles, performing well the whole time... and never leaking a drop of brake fluid. Drums are not powerful enough for the front brake of a fast motorcycle but they work just fine on the rear, where a tiny disk is now typical.
It’s also nice to have the front brakes entirely isolated from the rear, so that I can ride all the way home without the rear brake should the part not arrive in time. Simple and straightforward is better in my world.
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My last two bikes 12' Stelvio NTX and current ride V9 Bobber have had ABS. I have been riding Guzzis for the last fifty years so have plenty of non ABS miles. Obviously ABS is not essential to safely ride a bike. But I must say I do like it on the latest bikes I have owned.
On the two occasions with these two bikes I have had to make what I would call panic stops the ABS functioned very well and was a big plus.
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Tex, those Ambos and Eldos definitely had anti lock brakes without any of the cost or complications of ABS! :grin:
Brilliant..! :bow: :thumb:
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Nothing much to add. Many many millions of miles ridden before ABS and the vast majority of folks lived through it.
The first bike I purchased that had ABS I actually kind of scoffed at the idea, but one day the ABS did actually save my butt. I might not be here without it.
Even though ABS saved me that day I have ZERO qualms riding a bike without ABS.
I agree with your premise.
However, this entire thread is like a time machine, taking me back to 1988, when BMW introduced ABS on a production bike, the K100RS/ABS. The comments made then, 32 years ago, read much like this thread. I don't think I need to extract examples from then and now, so that any of you know my thoughts about ABS, and the comments in this thread.
Bob
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The difference is that BMW ABS in 1988 was awful in the way it performed, now it’s just awful to maintain over a long period.
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The difference is that BMW ABS in 1988 was awful in the way it performed, now it’s just awful to maintain over a long period.
30 years later, probably difficult to maintain. Why awful at the time? It was the first ABS designed for motorcycles. I owned and rode my 1989 K100RS/ABS for 43000 miles, before trading on a K1100RS that came with ABS. The system on my 89 model worked. I took the bike out to prove to myself that it did work. Wet road .... 60mph ..... hammered the brakes. Yes, they pulsed, since they were controlled by late 1980 electronics. But not thru the foot pedal or hand brake. The bike simply slowed nicely, with the brakes held on full. To say BMW's first gen ABS didn't work is horses**t.
Bob
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Back in 1988, ABS caused longer emergency stopping distance on clean dry pavement compared to a non-ABS bike. Significantly longer stopping distance in that situation is no longer part of the picture with modern ABS. That could explain why @Tusayan used the term, "awful."
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Of course it's not essential. I've got about 500,000 miles on motorcycles, and 20,000 of those were on bikes with ABS.
It has some benefits, but it's like people who say:
"I would NEVER leave the house without my smartphone and GPS. NEVER!"
"I would NEVER drive a car without an airbag!"
and things like that. Something we happily did without for our whole lives - how can it suddenly become "essential"?
Lannis
what he said!
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I always hated the idea of ABS or traction control. Then I got a 1400 Touring. I had a ball finding the limits of what the TC could do and appreciated the ABS. The bike had ferocious braking performance for such a heavy beast. I had always thought rider aids would somehow dilute my enjoyment of riding but found the opposite to be true. It’s nice to be wrong sometimes.
I spent all afternoon riding class 4 roads and power lines today on my Ducati Scrambler. In that type of riding ABS is no good. It’s nice to be able to turn it off when you need to drag the rear to change direction or throw it around.
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A bike without ABS is definitely not a death trap. You will not be “trapped” in any way during the fatal accident sequence.
Kidding aside, I am ambivalent. The ABS on my 2007 BMW F800S tried to kill me one day leaving the Lindale Guzzi rally. Steep driveway to exit the location covered in deep fresh pea gravel. Oncoming car in road below. The BMW anti-lock brakes refused to brake. Horrible situation.
They would also refuse to brake in front of some rippled pavement before a downtown stop sign on a route I rode daily. I hate that ABS system.
Admittedly, the ABS on my 2016 Triumph STRx is much better.
I’m totally comfortable without ABS. My favorite bikes don’t have it. I don’t obsess over this issue. And I spend an enormous amount of care and attention to reading traffic and using good road craft with the idea that I never have to engage in full blown “panic braking.”
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Why awful at the time? It was the first ABS designed for motorcycles. I owned and rode my 1989 K100RS/ABS for 43000 miles, before trading on a K1100RS that came with ABS. The system on my 89 model worked. I took the bike out to prove to myself that it did work. Wet road .... 60mph ..... hammered the brakes. Yes, they pulsed, since they were controlled by late 1980 electronics. But not thru the foot pedal or hand brake. The bike simply slowed nicely, with the brakes held on full. To say BMW's first gen ABS didn't work is horses**t.
Using the brakes to their potential on dry roads was impossible. I rode a lot of them, and once activated the ABS on a K-RS five times unintentionally on a single stretch of twisty road, the east grade of Palomar. When you activated the ABS, it’s cycle rate was so low that’s the bike pogo’d like a circus act. Completely unsuitable for fast riding, should only have been fitted to the most pedestrian touring bikes,
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The ABS on my 2007 BMW F800S tried to kill me one day leaving the Lindale Guzzi rally. Steep driveway to exit the location covered in deep fresh pea gravel. Oncoming car in road below. The BMW anti-lock brakes refused to brake. Horrible situation. They would also refuse to brake in front of some rippled pavement before a downtown stop sign on a route I rode daily. I hate that ABS system.
The first F800 system was well known for that behavior, and it was dangerous. They eventually fixed it but like always with BMW, denial was the initial reaction and I don’t know if they ever came clean on this one.
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Nice, sometimes helpful, NOT essential.
My first ABS bike was a Norge in 2015/16, I wasn't overly impressed. Same with the Stornello that has ABS & TC. Now my only bike with ABS is the Stornello.
35+ years 350K miles and no ABS, I prefer to run without it. There IS a subliminal level of confidence when riding with it though. Long term, I'd prefer a bike without.
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I’m on a 2000 mile tour at the moment. On Tuesday my rear brake developed a pinhole leak where the rubber line is swaged into a fitting. I’ve ordered a replacement to arrive where I’ll be on Saturday and will install/bleed it in an hour, in a parking lot. Last time I checked you couldn’t do that so easily with an ABS system, pumps etc being in the line, and thinking about it cemented in my mind why I’m not at all interested in ABS: it’s just not part of the simple, elemental motorcycling experience I’ve enjoyed since age nine, decades ago. What others may think about that is of no interest to me, I’m too busy living my own life based on many years of experience and skill developed along the way.
What would probably be better for my use is a drum rear brake, as per my R100GS on which the rear drum has worked with no service at all except occasional cable adjustments for 106,000 miles, performing well the whole time... and never leaking a drop of brake fluid. Drums are not powerful enough for the front brake of a fast motorcycle but they work just fine on the rear, where a tiny disk is now typical.
It’s also nice to have the front brakes entirely isolated from the rear, so that I can ride all the way home without the rear brake should the part not arrive in time. Simple and straightforward is better in my world.
:thumb: :bike-037:
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I think the expression is, "Yesterdays luxury is todays necessity." Cell phones, cars with a/c and power windows. Dishwashers. Lots of things our grandparents would have though were frivolous and unnecessary extravagence.
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As ABS becomes more common on motorcycles I see more people claiming they will never buy a bike without it.
Going to make it mandatory out here for bikes over 250cc.
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I have owned the worst braking M/C in the world a 72 HD Super Glide. Small drum brake that faded fast and big rear drum that locked up fast. My next bike was a Ducati 750 GT which I kept until 1991 when I bought a new 90 Mille with linked brakes. I love linked brakes and have never ridden ABS. So my question for those Guzzzitis who have ridden linked, non linked and ABS Guzzis where it the biggest difference. Say comparing a non linked Guzzi (not a modified previously linked Guzzi) to a linked Guzzi. And then compare a linked Guzzi to an ABS Guzzi.
Is ABS far superior to a linked Guzzi or is a linked Guzzi far superior to a non linked Guzzi and not so bad compared to an ABS? Are there Tonti frame ABS Guzzis for a comparison to the 3 different braking systems on strictly Tonti Bikes?
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Going to make it mandatory out here for bikes over 250cc.
That's the way the people in charge like it .... "Everything that is not Forbidden is Mandatory".
What a world.
Lannis
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I've been riding my Honda CB1300 for about 6 years now.
Its got ABS fitted; I've never had it kick in in all that time.
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Considering you can still buy new motorcycles that do not come with ABS nor is ABS even avalaible on it should tell you its not essential. I know its not a deal breaker for me.
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Given the choice, I'd buy the same model bike without ABS even if the price were the same.
I suspect within a few years it will not be an option on street bikes.
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Given the choice, I'd buy the same model bike without ABS even if the price were the same.
I suspect within a few years it will not be an option on street bikes.
I gotta say Im the same. I would not pass up a bike because it has it... but I wouldn't choose it as a option.
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NOT
It can be helpful and is a good thing to have, but essential; no.
When bikes with ABS started becoming available I surprised myself by being able to stop in a shorter distance on my non-ABS bike (during Experienced Riders Course). ABS does keep your tires from locking up, but that can also mean a longer stopping distance.
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I have owned the worst braking M/C in the world a 72 HD Super Glide. Small drum brake that faded fast and big rear drum that locked up fast. My next bike was a Ducati 750 GT which I kept until 1991 when I bought a new 90 Mille with linked brakes. I love linked brakes and have never ridden ABS. So my question for those Guzzzitis who have ridden linked, non linked and ABS Guzzis where it the biggest difference. Say comparing a non linked Guzzi (not a modified previously linked Guzzi) to a linked Guzzi. And then compare a linked Guzzi to an ABS Guzzi.
Is ABS far superior to a linked Guzzi or is a linked Guzzi far superior to a non linked Guzzi and not so bad compared to an ABS? Are there Tonti frame ABS Guzzis for a comparison to the 3 different braking systems on strictly Tonti Bikes?
Is there a way you could ask your question, but do so in a more convoluted manner??
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Considering you can still buy new motorcycles that do not come with ABS nor is ABS even avalaible on it should tell you its not essential. I know its not a deal breaker for me.
Government mandating and essential are mutually exclusive. I agree that it is not essential.
The post that says mandated on bikes above 250cc is ludicrous. The 250cc and below rider is most likely to panic brake.
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30 years later, probably difficult to maintain. Why awful at the time? It was the first ABS designed for motorcycles. I owned and rode my 1989 K100RS/ABS for 43000 miles, before trading on a K1100RS that came with ABS. The system on my 89 model worked. I took the bike out to prove to myself that it did work. Wet road .... 60mph ..... hammered the brakes. Yes, they pulsed, since they were controlled by late 1980 electronics. But not thru the foot pedal or hand brake. The bike simply slowed nicely, with the brakes held on full. To say BMW's first gen ABS didn't work is horses**t.
Bob
Maybe it was a dart at servicing the servo/ABS units which are a little more time consuming to flush/bleed but nothing that cannot be done in less than an hour with a pint of $4 Prestone DOT4. Or at least on a 2004 - 2006 R1200GS.
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In the early 1980's I drove a full sized School Bus with ABS. One day in the snow, I tried it out in an empty parking lot. It worked great.
My Norge ABS has only activated once (10 years ago) in a panic stop that I aborted and drove on through. It seemed to work.
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My Ducati has adjustable ABS and Traction Control. It works extremely well and is largely seamless. I've kicked on both measures. And changing tire brands did make a difference.
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Is there a way you could ask your question, but do so in a more convoluted manner??
I'm working on it. :grin:
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My previous ride was a Honda CTX700 with separate ABS on front an rear. The ABS enabled me to avoid a crash on one occasion. I liked it.
But, what I wanted to find out is this:
Has anyone (with ABS) purposefully grabbed a handful of front brake on a wet road just to see what happens? I've done it on wet and dry with the rear brake and on dry road with the front, but I never had the testicular fortitude to do it with the front on a wet road.
Gonzo
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My previous ride was a Honda CTX700 with separate ABS on front an rear. The ABS enabled me to avoid a crash on one occasion. I liked it.
But, what I wanted to find out is this:
Has anyone (with ABS) purposefully grabbed a handful of front brake on a wet road just to see what happens? I've done it on wet and dry with the rear brake and on dry road with the front, but I never had the testicular fortitude to do it with the front on a wet road.
Gonzo
I have done it (intentionally) on grass with the Norge..
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...Has anyone (with ABS) purposefully grabbed a handful of front brake on a wet road just to see what happens?
Gonzo
My V7 is the first bike I've owned with ABS, so I've done a bit of experimenting. Yesterday I did as you suggested quite a few times on a dirt road. Pulsed like crazy, zero loss of control...And very long stopping distance...
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Government mandating and essential are mutually exclusive. I agree that it is not essential.
The post that says mandated on bikes above 250cc is ludicrous. The 250cc and below rider is most likely to panic brake.
"Mandates" are not for your safety or protection. They are for control, every time. Not control of the motorcycle, either.
I've got one bike with ABS, but have never used it that I know of. We've got a car with ABS, but I've never had it activate in normal driving. I've experimented with it in snow, but the car just keeps going .... !
Considering that I can still buy a 100-year-old car or motorcycle and use it for daily travel if I want to, I doubt seriously that I will be plagued with some equipment requirement that I don't want anytime within my lifespan.
Lannis
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I don't think ABS is essential but as my reflexes slow a bit I like having it. Good to know that if I overdo the brakes they'll compensate. I've never had the ABS kick on for the front brake but the rear did during a wet road condition, possibly on a painted surface. Don't think I would have lost it with non-ABS but glad not to test that.
I would NOT want them on a dirt bike, tho I read that the newer systems are quite good and on some models, the test riders didn't turn the ABS off while in the dirt.
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I had a discussion with a friend this morning and he said he would NEVER buy a motorcycle without ABS and proclaimed that any non-ABS bike was a “death trap“. His words, not mine.
When I look at the brakes on my Breva 1100 - which does not have the ABS option- I have a hard time thinking that bike is a “death Trap”.
Collective thoughts? I know my old Cali with linked brakes was great in a panic stop but that would not have pulsed either. I think it’s more a case off riding smart and not overriding your or the bike’s capabilities...
Essential to me. YMMV.
I traded my beloved 2009 8V Griso in on a 2012 8V Norge because of the lack of ABS on the Griso. Despite it being my favorite Guzzi, I felt less secure, especially after both my brother and Bob Annandale ("Buzzard Bob" to some) wrecked within two months of each other on Breva 1100s in conditions where ABS woulda saved 'em. Bob had cracked ribs and a totalled bike; Ray had messed up knee, broken wrist, and other things. ATGATT prevented dire injuries, but ABS would been the ticket.
YMMV, but as for me and my house, we'll do ABS (and TC).
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The ABS tech on motorcycle is getting way way way better than even 5 years ago...and they are ever evolving due to requirement/better study.
as for "essential"...it depends on how a person defines the term.
well, let's put it this way.
Would I buy a motorcycle without ABS? Yes, I would.
If I have no choice but to get a motorcycle WITH ABS, would I still buy it? Yes, I would, but I will do my best to not rely on it AKA rider training & defensive riding.
If I was given a choice to get rid of ABS, would I? No I wouldn't, but I will add a system to switch off when I don't need it AKA dirt.
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Anyone buying a new bike should get it. Don't skimp for a few bucks.
Nothing wrong with riding older bikes, I have three old ones and only 1 with ABS. So don't get talked out of it. Just because ABS is a PIA for the bikes 10 years ago, it's a good deal now. So don't purchase an old ABS bike but make sure to get it in a newer bike.
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None of my bikes have ever had ABS. None. In 40 years - I was a late starter into the sometimes dubious delights of two-wheeled conveyance.
Some, in fact most, really didn't need it. The brakes simply weren't powerful enough, didn't grip or retard at anything like acceptable rates. Some bikes' brakes were downright dangerous: a KTM 600 had the most woeful front drum brake that allowed approx 3 seconds of braking before fading all to the way to the handlebar grip in uselessness. Great for the dirt, but downright dangerous on Macadam, especially on my second set of "dual sport" tired wheels.
Ducati's & BMW boxer brakes, despite being then-current "state of the art" Brembos were likewise, pretty vague & comparitively gutless. My only bike with redeeming retardation were the linked Brembos on my sole Guzzi Spada. Even they, in comparison to "modern" bikes weren't, on reflection, really all that good either.
Modern brakes are amazing, however. My most powerful, & potentially fastest bike (RSV1000R) has Monoblocs. Instant, extreme braking with just a finger or 2. This bike SHOULD have ABS, but doesn't. Powerful brakes on a big, heavy or fast bike really need fine control to protect the rider from themselves. In emergency braking scenarios it's just too easy to grab a panicked handful when faced with (my latest instant was a bunch [gaggle?] of unexpected geese crossing a wet road) a surprise.
My other bikes are even more extreme. I have a brace of Husky Nudas which are notoriously over-braked. The "standard" models is manageable, one of which has ABS. 2013 models were eventually ABS braked. My first bike ever so equipped. Brilliant. Yet another, a 2012 "R" model, doesn't. It's "upgraded" brakes are simply lethal. Racing, indeed GP-class Monoblocs on an extremely lightweight naked hotrod! Road tests of the time all commonly alluded to the waay too powerful, potentially lethal brakes especially the R's Monoblocs. On a 175 Kg bike that could've been better served with a single disc only!
My solution therefore, is to turn my R model into an ABS model by doing a front-end & Ohlins rear swap. The only way that I can see my way clear to having a safe, actually rideable Nuda.
Other, presumably better riders than me are critical: "You should learn how to properly modulate your front braking". "I've been racing for decades, & I know how to brake safely to just before lockup on a track". "You don't really need ABS: it's just for crap riders".
Maybe all valid points, but I simply don't want to ride on the road, in all conditions, on a dangerously over-braked bike without the safety net of ABS. Having served a 40 year apprenticeship without, I can clearly see its merits. In my opinion an over-braked bike is potentially more dangerous than an under-braked one.
My daughters, both now in their 20s & relatively new to biking, are safe drivers & will each be getting non-ABS Nudas when I complete the swap & get all 3 roadworthy for the coming Antipodean Summer. Can't wait. Both bikes will be equipped with the less savage & much safer Brembo standard calipers. Essential, in my opinion, to adequately teach them safe braking practises in all road conditions. Mine, with utterly manic R-spec Monobloc calipers, will have ABS; theirs won't.
Sorry for the mini-essay. My convoluted discussion may be summarised thus: ABS is an excellent safety system for modern, powerful bikes & braking systems. Yet it may actually teach inexperienced users some "bad habits"; grabbing a fistful of brakes even in poor low-grip conditions. Older bikes didn't have sufficiently powerful brakes to actually warrant ABS. Modern bikes do. If ever a bike needed ABS as an utterly essential safety inclusion it's the otherwise lethal Monobloc Husky Nuda R, whereas older 80s (maybe even 90s) vintage Guzzies, BMW boxers, Ducatis etc. actually don't.
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Essential to me. YMMV.
I traded my beloved 2009 8V Griso in on a 2012 8V Norge because of the lack of ABS on the Griso. Despite it being my favorite Guzzi, I felt less secure, especially after both my brother and Bob Annandale ("Buzzard Bob" to some) wrecked within two months of each other on Breva 1100s in conditions where ABS woulda saved 'em. Bob had cracked ribs and a totalled bike; Ray had messed up knee, broken wrist, and other things. ATGATT prevented dire injuries, but ABS would been the ticket.
YMMV, but as for me and my house, we'll do ABS (and TC).
I'd love be to hear a bit about the circumstances, if you're up for it. As a returning rider on first bike ever with ABS, I'm definitely interested in knowing about the situations it might help, hurt, or make no difference.
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None of my bikes have ever had ABS. None. In 40 years - I was a late starter into the sometimes dubious delights of two-wheeled conveyance.
Some, in fact most, really didn't need it. The brakes simply weren't powerful enough, didn't grip or retard at anything like acceptable rates. Some bikes' brakes were downright dangerous: a KTM 600 had the most woeful front drum brake that allowed approx 3 seconds of braking before fading all to the way to the handlebar grip in uselessness. Great for the dirt, but downright dangerous on Macadam, especially on my second set of "dual sport" tired wheels.
Ducati's & BMW boxer brakes, despite being then-current "state of the art" Brembos were likewise, pretty vague & comparitively gutless. My only bike with redeeming retardation were the linked Brembos on my sole Guzzi Spada. Even they, in comparison to "modern" bikes weren't, on reflection, really all that good either.
Modern brakes are amazing, however. My most powerful, & potentially fastest bike (RSV1000R) has Monoblocs. Instant, extreme braking with just a finger or 2. This bike SHOULD have ABS, but doesn't. Powerful brakes on a big, heavy or fast bike really need fine control to protect the rider from themselves. In emergency braking scenarios it's just too easy to grab a panicked handful when faced with (my latest instant was a bunch [gaggle?] of unexpected geese crossing a wet road) a surprise.
My other bikes are even more extreme. I have a brace of Husky Nudas which are notoriously over-braked. The "standard" models is manageable, one of which has ABS. 2013 models were eventually ABS braked. My first bike ever so equipped. Brilliant. Yet another, a 2012 "R" model, doesn't. It's "upgraded" brakes are simply lethal. Racing, indeed GP-class Monoblocs on an extremely lightweight naked hotrod! Road tests of the time all commonly alluded to the waay too powerful, potentially lethal brakes especially the R's Monoblocs. On a 175 Kg bike that could've been better served with a single disc only!
My solution therefore, is to turn my R model into an ABS model by doing a front-end & Ohlins rear swap. The only way that I can see my way clear to having a safe, actually rideable Nuda.
Other, presumably better riders than me are critical: "You should learn how to properly modulate your front braking". "I've been racing for decades, & I know how to brake safely to just before lockup on a track". "You don't really need ABS: it's just for crap riders".
Maybe all valid points, but I simply don't want to ride on the road, in all conditions, on a dangerously over-braked bike without the safety net of ABS. Having served a 40 year apprenticeship without, I can clearly see its merits. In my opinion an over-braked bike is potentially more dangerous than an under-braked one.
My daughters, both now in their 20s & relatively new to biking, are safe drivers & will each be getting non-ABS Nudas when I complete the swap & get all 3 roadworthy for the coming Antipodean Summer. Can't wait. Both bikes will be equipped with the less savage & much safer Brembo standard calipers. Essential, in my opinion, to adequately teach them safe braking practises in all road conditions. Mine, with utterly manic R-spec Monobloc calipers, will have ABS; theirs won't.
Sorry for the mini-essay. My convoluted discussion may be summarised thus: ABS is an excellent safety system for modern, powerful bikes & braking systems. Yet it may actually teach inexperienced users some "bad habits"; grabbing a fistful of brakes even in poor low-grip conditions. Older bikes didn't have sufficiently powerful brakes to actually warrant ABS. Modern bikes do. If ever a bike needed ABS as an utterly essential safety inclusion it's the otherwise lethal Monobloc Husky Nuda R, whereas older 80s (maybe even 90s) vintage Guzzies, BMW boxers, Ducatis etc. actually don't.
I would like to see some pictures of your Husky Nudas. Always lusted for one, but never brought into the US.
I agree, old bikes with weak brakes go equipped with ABS as standard equipment.
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Just out of curiosity, do the super bike class racing bikes utilize ABS systems?
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Just out of curiosity, do the super bike class racing bikes utilize ABS systems?
Personally I'm not really sure, but I've always been told that a well-skilled rider (& car driver) can actually stop in shorter distances without. So I'm doubtful, although the electronic control systems are becoming forever better & therefore presumably more effective. I think Superbike class racers turn off their ABS.
ABS is most effective with less skilled riders riding in "normal", uncontrolled road conditions on a variety of average road conditions rather than a fast, grippy racetrack with generous corner runoffs.
I'm not a racer, nor have anything but average braking skills.
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Traction versus loss of traction is very often not a single step function, it can be a very rapid back and forth thing. Momentary loss of traction under very hard braking on changeable surfaces is an issue with ABS. Without ABS when the tire regains traction after a very short period of lost traction that the rider may not even have felt, braking immediately continues uninterrupted. With ABS there is a slight delay while the system recognizes what is going on, before braking is reapplied. If this situation happens repetitively in very hard braking on a changeable traction surface, the short delays add up and braking distance will be unavoidably longer because the response time of the ABS system is competing with zero response time without ABS. The benefit is less chance of losing control, and ABS response times have much reduced over the years.
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Is there a way you could ask your question, but do so in a more convoluted manner??
I am working on my convoluted question. But first I have to find out are there any Tonti frame Guzzi's that came with abs?
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Anyone buying a new bike should get it. Don't skimp for a few bucks.
Nothing wrong with riding older bikes, I have three old ones and only 1 with ABS. So don't get talked out of it. Just because ABS is a PIA for the bikes 10 years ago, it's a good deal now. So don't purchase an old ABS bike but make sure to get it in a newer bike.
In some cases I've seen it as a $1000 option. I've also seen the non-ABS bikes get large discounts because people "must have" ABS which makes the non-ABS bikes even more appealing. I have never gone down because of locking up the brakes, but have stopped perpendicular to the light when coming to a stop on a freshly wet road in Florida. With ABS I would have probably been in the intersection.
Reminds me of when I bought my first new car. I wasn't going to pay $1000 extra for an automatic when I knew how to drive a manual, and sure enough wasn't going to pay another $1000 for Air Conditioning when I could open the windows.
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In some cases I've seen it as a $1000 option. I've also seen the non-ABS bikes get large discounts because people "must have" ABS which makes the non-ABS bikes even more appealing. I have never gone down because of locking up the brakes, but have stopped perpendicular to the light when coming to a stop on a freshly wet road in Florida. With ABS I would have probably been in the intersection.
Reminds me of when I bought my first new car. I wasn't going to pay $1000 extra for an automatic when I knew how to drive a manual, and sure enough wasn't going to pay another $1000 for Air Conditioning when I could open the windows.
Next question after ABS will be "Are the lane-holding and anti-collision sensors essential on a bike/car?". Me personal, I'll never buy a car with a deal where some sensor will take control of the car away from me. Cautionary tales are already starting to build up; people get used to them, get lazy, forget whether they or the car has control, transition from lines on the road to no lines, ad infinitum. Things may go wrong due to my own actions, but it's not going to be a "open the pod bay doors, HAL" scenario ... :undecided:
I don't need the ABS, but if things are so bad that IT can't help, I probably couldn't have stopped in time either, at least on the street.
Lannis
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We encountered this invasive automation problem in the air transport aircraft operations when it started taking more and more of the basic pilot duties from the operation of the aircraft. It resulted in a reduction in piloting skills because more of the critical functions were taken out of the pilots normal scan and ops.
Now aircraft (after take off) can virtually fly to a programed destination , descend and land and stop w/o the pilot touching the controls.
Auto throttles, auto brakes .auto land, etc.
The pilot needs to stay engaged with the operation of the aircraft and not just monitor.
Manual operation skills must be maintained and practiced or you lose them.
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The pilot needs to stay engaged with the operation of the aircraft and not just monitor.
Manual operation skills must be maintained and practiced or you lose them.
Yep. 228 people paid the price for what happens when you just trust the automation and forget you are an aviator on Air France Flight 447 .... and there are quite a few others.
Lannis