Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ArchieFergus on October 02, 2020, 04:44:31 PM
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We are building a vehicle using the V85 engine. We would like to optimise torque through the range. No doubt this has been raised before, so forgive me for bringing it up again. There are ample options (Stage 1/2, remap etc.), but which have members found to deliver the greatest benefit?
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Gasflow through the combustion chamber is a bit restricted in the standard motors. They consequently run rather lean & hot.
You can firstly get a little more clean air into the cylinder with a free-er flowing filtration element from aftermarket suppliers.
Likewise, the manifold pipes are rather narrow. There's a few suppliers of free-flowing headers around, notably one from my own little island of Tasmania!?!. A decat would help, too, allowing the whole kit to run cooler & more efficiently with installation of a wide-bore y-pipe collector. Too wide, however, will actually reduce any given motor's bottom end grunt. An element of back pressure is required to prevent too much scavenging of unburnt air/fuel mixture.
Further back, improvements in power will become incrementally smaller. Free flow of gases through the combustion chamber will improve torque, but aside from slightly enhancing scavenging, you'll still need to maintain an element of muffler back-pressure to aid torque at the expense of top-end power.
With a basic aftermarket change of filtration & exhaust collectors you should get a cooler running, richer running motor with noticeable power & marginal torque gains.
Additional gains would have to involve modification of ECU mapping, injection and timing way beyond my own rather mediocre expertise.
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The easiest fix is use a 4V 1200 mill.
Small blocks are no matter how much you bore them out are still small blocks.
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Teaser, Let us see some pics of the vehicle and details of the build please.
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Possibly the most foolproof means of increasing torque from low-capacity engines is gear (or belt) drive supercharging. Given the smaller physical dimensions of v-twin engines maybe a Sprintex screw-type air compressor would be preferable to a Rootes-type vane blower.
With separate cylinder heads/exhaust manifolds/headers on a v-twin an exhaust-turbine supercharger (turbo) won't work as efficiently as the gear driven alternative.
Superchargers really do "supercharge" the performance of small motors, with virtually lag-free instantaneous power directly proportional to engine speed & relatively independent of throttle position, unlike exhaust turbine supercharging.
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We are building a vehicle using the V85 engine. We would like to optimise torque through the range. No doubt this has been raised before, so forgive me for bringing it up again. There are ample options (Stage 1/2, remap etc.), but which have members found to deliver the greatest benefit?
Can hardly believe that it is economical to use a motor out of a new bike (or 1 year old) and spend a chunk of change to 'improve' it, when when you could buy an 8V 1200 or even a 1400 for 50% of the cost as a bolt in issue.
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Others have reported the V9 engine as having more torque but lower revs than the V85. I'm on board with using a big block if the packaging works.
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Teaser, Let us see some pics of the vehicle and details of the build please.
This is the development vehicle with an MG V7
(https://i.imgur.com/qH688Ma.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oRgWUtr.png)
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Can hardly believe that it is economical to use a motor out of a new bike (or 1 year old) and spend a chunk of change to 'improve' it, when when you could buy an 8V 1200 or even a 1400 for 50% of the cost as a bolt in issue.
We would love to fit a big block instead but the build will not be complete until next year, by when we in the UK will have to comply with the Euro 5 standard. None of the MG's larger than the V85 meet the requirement.
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This is the development vehicle with an MG V7
(https://i.imgur.com/qH688Ma.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oRgWUtr.png)
Beautiful vehicle. I didn't realize you were marketing a vehicle, thought it was just a one off personal project. I haven't read the whole thread, but would love to learn more about it.
Have you reached out to Mark Bayle (Beetle)? He has a website, and can send him a message through his site to discuss tuning. His maps do not generally create 'more' power, but maximizes power and torque delivery. There is only so much you can do given the starting point.
Something to think about, the V85 motor passes the current EURO standards, but I would imagine significant changes to the motor, tune, TB size, fueling etc will effect the emissions, and you may be at the same point with being non compliant.
This isn't my industry or expertise, but in the US many companies sell cars like this as 'kits' where the buyer sources the motor, and the seller has adapter plates/kits, etc for a variety of motor applications.
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Beautiful vehicle. I didn't realize you were marketing a vehicle, thought it was just a one off personal project. I haven't read the whole thread, but would love to learn more about it.
Have you reached out to Mark Bayle (Beetle)? He has a website, and can send him a message through his site to discuss tuning. His maps do not generally create 'more' power, but maximizes power and torque delivery. There is only so much you can do given the starting point.
Something to think about, the V85 motor passes the current EURO standards, but I would imagine significant changes to the motor, tune, TB size, fueling etc will effect the emissions, and you may be at the same point with being non compliant.
This isn't my industry or expertise, but in the US many companies sell cars like this as 'kits' where the buyer sources the motor, and the seller has adapter plates/kits, etc for a variety of motor applications.
I am not trying to market it. The vehicle (a Pembleton T24) is commercially available - mine is the first one ordered - but each one is bespoke and they have not tried to pair the V85 with it before.
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Lower the gearing and rev the snot out of it, other old school solution is heavier flywheel, won't actually make more torque as such something about conservation of momentum. I think Rodsmith motorcycles (look up on youtube) turbo'ed a V9 which with what's available would be relatively easy compared to supercharging. Although any messing with the mapping exhaust or the induction will most likely burn the motors euro 5 compliance to the ground
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Thank you both. I have sent a message to Mark Bailey (the vehicle is being built only a few miles from his workshop) and I enjoyed Rodman's YouTube rebuilds.
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As someone else mentioned, a V9 motor might have better low end torque than the V85.
Is the 1400 motor Euro-5 compliant?
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As someone else mentioned, a V9 motor might have better low end torque than the V85.
Is the 1400 motor Euro-5 compliant?
To be clear the V9 makes similar peak torque numbers to the V85, but at about a 2k lower rpm, and it makes more torque from there to ~3k and equal torque from 3-5k.
Here are the number I posted in Huzo's thread (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=107750.new#new), as best as I could from sourced dyno readouts.
V85 - 66 hp @ ~7980 / 49 ft lbs @ 5160-5300
V9 - 51 hp @ 6000 / 47 ft lbs @ 3500
RPM - V85 RWHP / Torque vs V9 RWHp / Torque :
2K - 15 / 38 vs 15 / 40
3K - 24 / 39 vs 28 / 47
4K - 38 / 46 vs 37 / 46
5K - 46 / 47 vs 46 / 46
6K - 55 / 46 vs 51 / 44
7K - 64 / 46 vs -----
8K - 66 / 45 vs -----
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To be clear the V9 makes similar peak torque numbers to the V85, but at about a 2k lower rpm, and it makes more torque from there to ~3k and equal torque from 3-5k.
Here are the number I posted in Huzo's thread (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=107750.new#new), as best as I could from sourced dyno readouts.
V85 - 66 hp @ ~7980 / 49 ft lbs @ 5160-5300
V9 - 51 hp @ 6000 / 47 ft lbs @ 3500
RPM - V85 RWHP / Torque vs V9 RWHp / Torque :
2K - 15 / 38 vs 15 / 40
3K - 24 / 39 vs 28 / 47
4K - 38 / 46 vs 37 / 46
5K - 46 / 47 vs 46 / 46
6K - 55 / 46 vs 51 / 44
7K - 64 / 46 vs -----
8K - 66 / 45 vs -----
Interesting figures. How much more would it be reasonable to extract through tuning from the V9? I have been spoilt by the X Wedge on my Morgan Three Wheeler, and I know a V9/85 could not come close to the pull from that engine, but perhaps we could close the gap a little?
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I'd say shorter gears and the V85 is likely the way to go. Torque, is of course multiplied with gear reduction. The redline of the V85 is what 30-33% higher than that of the V9? So, with a final drive that is 30% lower, rear wheel torque will be 30% higher with the V85 motor in any given gear, with, the motor, of course, spinning at a 30% higher RPM.
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the exhaust will be tuned to resonate at some rpm. By retuning it for lower rpm you will increase torque at that point at the expense of torque at higher rpm, it may be possible to flatten the curve.
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Interesting figures. How much more would it be reasonable to extract through tuning from the V9? I have been spoilt by the X Wedge on my Morgan Three Wheeler, and I know a V9/85 could not come close to the pull from that engine, but perhaps we could close the gap a little?
I don't have any data for you.
Unlike say Harleys who left way hp on the table or even other manufacturers who were forced to leave room for improvement by meeting emissions standards the Guzzi smallblocks for years were largely limited by the heron head chamber design and didn't respond much to the easy upgrades (air cleaner, exhaust, tuning).
That said the new hemi heads are a whole new thing in the sense and may fare better.
It's just such a small market few have done anything like that yet, therefore... Not data.
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I seriously doubt there are more than a couple of stray lbs ft to be found W/O some version of forced induction . Slightly longer primary header pipes with an appropriate remap might shift some to a lower RPM range with some sacrifice of higher RPM numbers . In this case there is no replacement for displacement .
Dusty
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I don't have any data for you.
Unlike say Harleys who left way hp on the table or even other manufacturers who were forced to leave room for improvement by meeting emissions standards the Guzzi smallblocks for years were largely limited by the heron head chamber design and didn't respond much to the easy upgrades (air cleaner, exhaust, tuning).
That said the new hemi heads are a whole new thing in the sense and may fare better.
It's just such a small market few have done anything like that yet, therefore... Not data.
Yes - understandable. And to be fair, my M3W (with Stage 2) is a largely unconstrained Euro 3 and they are stopping production at the end of the year because they cannot meet Euro 5. The new vehicle will be 180kg lighter than the Morgan but around 100 kg heavier than the V85TT so it may not feel too bad compared to the S&S engine, but there is only so much one can do with 850cc without significant rebuilding.
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I reckon the ‘85 would have had more appeal in some respects if it had the V9 mill from the get go.
I’d like to ride one so equipped.
I’ll have a ride on a Roamer one day if I know my mates can’t find out...
Here's another view, yrmv...
http://exhaustnotes.us/blog/index.php/2020/10/06/exhaustnotes-road-test-triumph-scrambler-vs-moto-guzzi-happy-meal/
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by when we in the UK will have to comply with the Euro 5 standard.
Is that the case for kit car personal builds, or has Pembleton dropped the kit option now? I couldn't find it any more the last time I took a look at their site.
That's a pain if so, you really want a big block for one of these IMO. :(
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Yes - understandable. And to be fair, my M3W (with Stage 2) is a largely unconstrained Euro 3 and they are stopping production at the end of the year because they cannot meet Euro 5. The new vehicle will be 180kg lighter than the Morgan but around 100 kg heavier than the V85TT so it may not feel too bad compared to the S&S engine, but there is only so much one can do with 850cc without significant rebuilding.
Never thought I'd make this statement about a Guzzi, but it could also probably do with a heavier flywheel if its got to haul around an additional 100KG. Would just make launching from a stand still a bit easier I'd imagine and improve its lugability a little.
Ciao
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Is that the case for kit car personal builds, or has Pembleton dropped the kit option now? I couldn't find it any more the last time I took a look at their site.
That's a pain if so, you really want a big block for one of these IMO. :(
Some of the kit-built four wheel Pembletons had 1300+ Guzzi or BMW engines, but they only offer turnkey vehicles now.
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Lovely looking car but I too can’t see how they can keep Euro 5 rating after changing just exhaust let alone anything else, guess it’s a deal done whereby Guzzi sell compliant motor, Pembleton just submit this compliance paperwork to dvlc and no one looks ?
Gearing it down was good idea but stuck with 2CV 4 speed box is going to be a limitation, fitting modern FWD 6 speed would make a lot of sense .
Or submit the paperwork for v7 (compliant) engine but actually fit a BB 1400, that should be alright with 4 speed but that much torque through a 60 year old gearbox might strain it a tad.
Best of luck, this is a good project, V85 is lovely motor IMHO, but the bike is seriously heavy, adding weight and chucking that box on is a big ask.
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Lovely looking car but I too can’t see how they can keep Euro 5 rating after changing just exhaust let alone anything else, guess it’s a deal done whereby Guzzi sell compliant motor, Pembleton just submit this compliance paperwork to dvlc and no one looks ?
Gearing it down was good idea but stuck with 2CV 4 speed box is going to be a limitation, fitting modern FWD 6 speed would make a lot of sense .
Or submit the paperwork for v7 (compliant) engine but actually fit a BB 1400, that should be alright with 4 speed but that much torque through a 60 year old gearbox might strain it a tad.
Best of luck, this is a good project, V85 is lovely motor IMHO, but the bike is seriously heavy, adding weight and chucking that box on is a big ask.
I fear that you are right. I may just have to accept it with either of those underpowered engines and push it hard with every gear change.
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Thanks a lot for posting the project.. Real nice!
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We are all hoping that Paiggio is working on a new 1100 or 1200 engine but no one knows.
Maybe this will be revealed in 2021 when Guzzi celebrates its 100 years anniversary.
If you are on LinkedIn you could try to contact one of the resonsibles.
I had a phone call with the German Guzzi specialist Roland Däs while ago.
Maybe he will work on a torque kit for the V85TT but you should not expect so much.
Maybe 3 HP more and bit a more torque.
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Triking has a Carc Guzzi based engine layout. So can be build with an euro 4 cali 1400 engine. Not all Cali 1400 are euro 4.
http://www.type4.trikingsportscars.co.uk/ But different from the 4 wheel one.
I would not set hopes on tuning the V85 engine. Any change will lose the Euro 5 status.
If it has to be tuned, a compressor or turbo might be the best way. Since in the engine there is not much to gain, the factory did their best on that with even titanium valves.
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Triking has a Carc Guzzi based engine layout. So can be build with an euro 4 cali 1400 engine. Not all Cali 1400 are euro 4.
http://www.type4.trikingsportscars.co.uk/ But different from the 4 wheel one.
I would not set hopes on tuning the V85 engine. Any change will lose the Euro 5 status.
If it has to be tuned, a compressor or turbo might be the best way. Since in the engine there is not much to gain, the factory did their best on that with even titanium valves.
If we could build and register it before the end of this year, a Euro 4-compliant engine would be fine. Unfortunately, it will not be completed until early next year, so we will have to fit a strangled block. Liberating it after registration is what we were looking at.
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We are building a vehicle using the V85 engine. We would like to optimise torque through the range. No doubt this has been raised before, so forgive me for bringing it up again. There are ample options (Stage 1/2, remap etc.), but which have members found to deliver the greatest benefit?
What exactly are you trying to change it from and to?
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What exactly are you trying to change it from and to?
My brief to the vehicle builders was for something that could be pushed hard on back roads, cruise and overtake at 85mph on an autobahn and perhaps give us some track day fun. But there is only so much one can do with 850cc pulling 360kg.
I was reminded today that MG released an update for the ECU in March that improved response from tick-over to mid-range. Has anyone had that download and is the boost noticeable?
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My brief to the vehicle builders was for something that could be pushed hard on back roads, cruise and overtake at 85mph on an autobahn and perhaps give us some track day fun. But there is only so much one can do with 850cc pulling 360kg.
I was reminded today that MG released an update for the ECU in March that improved response from tick-over to mid-range. Has anyone had that download and is the boost noticeable?
Sounds like you’ve given the man an impossible job if he has to use a v85 motor with a citroen 2cv gearbox and the aerodynamics of a 1930’s roadster.
Looking forward to your appraisal of his meeting the brief.
If budget permits, an alternative sequential box would help lots, 4 speed is a serious limitation, add to that the “umbrella” gear lever and ................
If suitable box from modern car not available, go to Quaife with wallet prepared
After getting your approval, chuck a blower on it, making suitable pistons etc par for course.
Exhaust, intake and fuelling optimised
As much weight from car lost as possible from wheels to seat frames etc etc
Could be a little rocketship with enough quids thrown in but specced as is will just be a pretty car, faster than a JAP V twin from 30’s maybe but not in the game compared to your modern Morgan
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Triking has a Carc Guzzi based engine layout. So can be build with an euro 4 cali 1400 engine. Not all Cali 1400 are euro 4.
http://www.type4.trikingsportscars.co.uk/ But different from the 4 wheel one.
I would not set hopes on tuning the V85 engine. Any change will lose the Euro 5 status.
If it has to be tuned, a compressor or turbo might be the best way. Since in the engine there is not much to gain, the factory did their best on that with even titanium valves.
Sadly, as I have said above, new builds completed after 1 January will have to meet Euro 5 standards. While that will push up the value of M3Ws like mine, I fear that it will see the end of performance cyclecar manufacturing. Morgan is ceasing M3W production at the end of the year. Trikings etc will not be able to market models with more than 850/950 engines. So perhaps the future for these vehicles is supercharging smaller blocks?
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The new Ducati engine has more torque and is Euro 5 compliant:
https://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-reveals-the-new-granturismo-v4-engine/
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Having lost its Desmo valve gear, it should be pretty reliable - with extended service intervals - too. Just the ticket for a more "automotive" installation.
Even if it isn't a classic V-twin, it still retains a superficial resemblance. Nevertheless, with longitudinal cylinders & a transverse crank, it might take some mechanical alchemy & jiggery-pokery to transfer the drive through 90 degrees into a tailshaft!
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The new Ducati engine has more torque and is Euro 5 compliant:
https://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-reveals-the-new-granturismo-v4-engine/
But it needs a... radiator
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Just wondering out loud here. The V9 motor develops torque much lower in the rev band. Could a cam out of a V9 be put into a VIII 750 motor???
If so, and I don't know if it would work or not, (clearances and such), you could get the vehicle certified and retrofit the other cam afterward.
Just a thought.
John Henry
Not sure what you think you'd accomplish by that. There's not a big difference between a V9 and V7III torque curves (even though I think the difference in feel is much more from the saddle). I've never checked to see if the flywheels are different and wonder if that could be part of the feel.
But why wouldn't one just use a V9 motor as opposed to try and swap cams?
(https://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/081717-2017-Moto-Guzzi-V7-III-Stone-hp-torque-dyno.jpg)
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Thank you all for your suggestions. Do keep them coming. The build is due to be completed by the end of March and I will look again at tuning etc potential once we are past the 4500 rpm run in limitation. It may be that by then there will be a big bore kit; Rapid Bike or a professional remap might be worth a look; or we find that the works setup is peppier than we expect.
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PS - we will have to stick to Euro 5 requirements in order to get our SVA; what we do after that is our affair.
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One further question: would a P3 camshaft fit the V85, or are there more up to date high lift cams that could work?
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The P3 is for old big-blocks and will not physically fit into a small-block. AFAIK, there are no performance cam options for the V85.
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PS - we will have to stick to Euro 5 requirements in order to get our SVA; what we do after that is our affair.
If that is the case then I wold source the cheapest V85 motor and ECU you can find. Get it set up, approved, etc. Then sell the motor and drop in a 1400 8V motor. I think they even use the same ECU (with different tunes).
You may even find you are happy with the V85 as is. Otherwise trying to get substantially more power or torque out of an already optimized powerlant you are trying to suck a rock through a straw.
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I just read that Euro 5 is delayed a year in the EU. So you still can put a 1400 euro 4 engine in. But if all is made for the v85 driveline, don't know how much extra work it is.
https://www.automobilwoche.de/article/20201020/AGENTURMELDUNGEN/310209965/1276/euro--norm-gilt-erst-ab--eu-parlament-verschiebt-abgasnorm-fuer-motorraeder
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That is almost correct, but in the UK new vehicles registered after 1 January 2021 with motor cycle engines must be Euro 5 compliant.
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That is almost correct, but in the UK new vehicles registered after 1 January 2021 with motor cycle engines must be Euro 5 compliant.
Ah, those Brits, always so EU compliant!
More so than the EU itself!
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That's why Morgan has to stop production of the Three Wheeler at the end of the year. S&S has discontinued the X Wedge that powers it because it cannot comply.