Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: sdcr on November 02, 2020, 02:25:35 PM
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This is a saga about buying and restoring a Citroen SM, long distance, without the benefit of having eyes on it. Not exactly a “success story” for the buyer.
Also, a buyer caveat regarding the purchase of a vehicle in an online auction. The new owner has quite a bit of grit, determination, and ultimately deep pockets, to be able to tackle this.
https://bringatrailer.com/2020/10/19/bat-auction-success-story-restoring-a-citroen-sm-in-3-or-more-acts-act-i/
(https://i.ibb.co/cFW53DC/C683-F5-A1-324-B-4589-B8-B6-83-C2-A1-A48-F16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cFW53DC)
json parser validator online (https://geojsonlint.com/)
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Wasn't that Olmos' cop car in Blade Runner?
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Hell of a car, that SM, but no thanks. My pockets aren't that deep.
So, the car was described as "some rust bubbles" and turns out to be a bond-buggy. Bummer.
I don't trust anyone enough to sink money into something like that sight unseen.
I remember when I sold my 61 Triumph TR4 in the late 70's. I'd had the body redone, and clearly warned the buyer that while it runs, the engine needs serious attention...you're buying it for the body. Three days later he called bitching about the engine leaking oil. Sometimes, even transparency doesn't work.
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Wait just a cotton pickin minute.
I thought this car was on " Bring a Trailer", where everything except top-notch vehicles are rejected as unworthy, and which bring Top Dollar.
This thing is a piece of junk from some scammer, which I can find all day on the Harlan, Kentucky Craigslist....
Lannis
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I owned a '88 Lotus Esprit that borrowed the transmission from Citrroen.
(https://i.ibb.co/QpCjQqf/Lotus.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QpCjQqf)
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Nope, they accept rare vintage cars, bona fide classics, ex race cars, motorcycles, everyday fords and just about anything theY think will bring them a 5% commission.
Wait just a cotton pickin minute.
I thought this car was on " Bring a Trailer", where everything except top-notch vehicles are rejected as unworthy, and which bring Top Dollar.
This thing is a piece of junk from some scammer, which I can find all day on the Harlan, Kentucky Craigslist....
Lannis
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Nope, they accept rare vintage cars, bona fide classics, ex race cars, motorcycles, everyday fords and just about anything theY think will bring them a 5% commission.
Well, good ... based on the price that BaT cars seem to bring, we were hearing experiences from board members about submitting their nice Guzzi for consideration and being rejected out-of-hand ....
Lannis
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I'm not sure I have that much sympathy. There were warning signs. The engine had been replaced. The tach didn't work. The AC didn't work. Obvious rot underneath as shown in pictures. The one paint "bubble " was a little bit more than just a blemish. It would have been fair to assume more. Dash is listed as cracked. Also listed, had been sitting in long term storage. I'm not familiar with the model but just from pictures the body gaps look strange. Very very few questions were asked during the auction. Sold for $15K. It sounds like a $15K project.
-AJ
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I should rephrase that "no sympathy" part. I think this guy just got in over his head bidding on something he knew nothing about. I don't think he was swindled. I think it was a project car from the beginning that others familiar with the marque knew not to bid it up. Another tell is for a car that historically has sold for over $25K, averaging $50K yet the reserve was below $15,000. Sure it's a bummer for this guy but you need to be an educated bidder.
-AJ
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It sold for a little more than it is worth but not by much. The Citroen SM is a unique, complex car. When sorted a coupe brings around $100,000. A convertible, of which they made damn few, brings around 750,000 euros. I first saw a video of one in the Dakar rally going flat out in the most upright position across the sand while everyone else was eating sand.
It is an interesting blend of French chassis and body work married to an excellent Maserati V6 motor. The hydropneumatic suspension gave it problems. Rubber pieces rot and the fix is expensive. The pundits also say it drives differently. There is a strong desire for the steering to come back to center. As I remember it would do close to 160mph. For a coupe not a Ferrari in the early 70's it was sneaky fast. I much prefer the European version with covered headlights. Under the hood it is pretty busy with all the pneumatic pieces on both sides of the motor with the transmission ahead of the motor on top. Front wheel drive. There is a small club in the US.
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I went to Hungary, one week before - hit the fan and most places were locked. (March)
Five pictures of the car and ticket in my pocket to Budapest.
With some local help, several glasses of Palinka and plenty of Chicken Paprikash, it turned out to be OK.
Getting the DS 21 here was another problem all together. It did eventually arrive few months later...
I spent all my childhood in a DS, my dad had one from 1962 to -86, when he passed away. (last one was a CX GTI)
So, I wanted to live again the memories ended up with this one.
I was 8 years old when I learned how to drive a car on my dads lap, on ice. Could not reach pedals, so he did pedals and I steered and gear shifted.
That's why this DS 21 Pallas is a 4-speed unlike most of them...
(https://i.postimg.cc/htZrFsT9/ready2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsPPWhrT)
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The car from "Space 1999"!!!!
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Old automotive axion:
The French copy no one, and no one copies the French.
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I went to Hungary, one week before - hit the fan and most places were locked. (March)
Five pictures of the car and ticket in my pocket to Budapest.
With some local help, several glasses of Palinka and plenty of Chicken Paprikash, it turned out to be OK.
Getting the DS 21 here was another problem all together. It did eventually arrive few months later...
I spent all my childhood in a DS, my dad had one from 1962 to -86, when he passed away. (last one was a CX GTI)
So, I wanted to live again the memories ended up with this one.
I was 8 years old when I learned how to drive a car on my dads lap, on ice. Could not reach pedals, so he did pedals and I steered and gear shifted.
That's why this DS 21 Pallas is a 4-speed unlike most of them...
(https://i.postimg.cc/htZrFsT9/ready2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsPPWhrT)
Wow, I've read of some amazing fly & rides on here, but I think that's the best one yet, definitely the most heartwarming story. :thumb:
Around 7-8 yrs of age I remember my Dad teaching me how to shift the 3 speed column shift on our '63 Ford Meteor, I later broke the shift linkage showing off to my friends while it was parked, my Dad wasn't impressed,lol.
I agree with the space car comments, I remember as a kid having a couple of futuristic similar designs in my "Hot Wheels" collection, lol :grin:
I don't know what the numbers would've been, but in the '60s I grew up in small town Quebec, just NW of Montreal and Citroens were very common, just a wag, but with the whole France/Quebec/French angle we probably had more Citroens on the road than most other countries, idk.
I don't think I've seen a Citroen in the flesh on the road in 35 yrs?
They have very special unique lines,
tks for sharing
Kelly
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Hallo Lauri,
Congratulations with your DS!
Looks like a beautiful specimen.
I had a strange friend in the late sixties.
First he dabbled with a Traction Avant - can't recall how that went.
A few years later he got a DS. During a ride he took me on, in a residential area, one of the rear wheels fell off and came rolling up along the car, which fell down on that corner of the car....
At least it was easy to fasten the wheel again. Jack the car up with assistance from the pneumatic suspension, and just one bolt to fasten the wheel.
I wonder if he arranged the loss of the wheel, to see if it was true that you can drive the DS with only three wheels.
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actually a typical story for a SM , they are amazingly complex to work on ,
the bodywork prone to rust. hardly any aftermarket parts available.
the hydraulics are no problem , exept rotting hoses and rusting lines they are easy to work on.
just a lot of it , i would guess something like 50 meters of hydraulic lines to begin with...
the engine is something else , it hardly fits under the bonnet, working on it is a pain .
they dont like sitting neglected, so anybody buying a sm restoration project should budget in a full engine rebuild.
you just dont start up a SM that has been standing for a long time.
a friend owns one , once properly build it is a absolutly brilliant- but expensive car to drive...
there is a good reason why a nice one goes for 100.000$ and a project car for 20.000$
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My dad used to have an SM. He bought it after he had a DS19 which I really liked. Since my buddy and I had a paint shop for classic cars we painted it in silver Imron and it looked great. Sitting in the back seat of the DS was like being at the movie theater-wide view. It had a non-synchro 1st gear and an electric clutch. If I remember-correct me if I am wrong-that the Citreons could drive even with one tire non-functional. The SM was more problematic. Mainly, the Weber carbs were finicky. It was an unique car and a good turn of speed was had. The air suspension was cool as when you parked it, the car would look something like a low rider on the ground. Luckily at that time, there was a Citroen repair place on Columbia street in San Diego. It is long gone. There was a gorgeous gold painted convertible DS21 that hailed from Del Mar and it was awesome. I used to see it buzzing around north San Diego county. Would have loved to have that car.
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My first car, purchased in 1969 was a 1965 DS-19. During the time I owned it, there was a recall and Morrie (Morrie's, Minnetonka, MN) gave my dad and I an SM to use for the day. I was the youngest member of the local Citroen club and he seemed to get a kick out of a youngster being interested. The SM was quite a treat to drive and I felt like quite the hotshot tooling around the Twin Cities. Here's a shot of my DS, when I was learning darkroom skills. Taken with a Russian Zenit E and Helios lens, pretty pedestrian gear, even for the day! The DS-19 was actually very reliable and comfortable but finally gave in to the salt of Wisconsin winters and the perimeter box frame became too dangerous.
(https://i.ibb.co/bmX9n5c/2019-10-30-0012a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bmX9n5c)
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Citroen?
As one of my friends who is an excellent machine designer likes to say:
"When is comes to automotive design, the French copy no one.... and NO ONE copies the French!"
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There was one thing that I always liked about the Citreons and that was the high turn signals mounted in the roof, they were very visible. As I remember, they had really weird spark plugs and you could only get them from France. The French don't throw away stuff if it still works, and I am sure there are many still running although I haven't been there since the late seventies so, I am probably hallucinating.
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Naturally, Leno has 'em.
Citroen SM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QH6q3C_W3k
DS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzW_ERSgFRY&t=1247s
Traction Avant (So beautiful and one of my favorites of all time)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jld1E50Xw8k
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Always loved Citroen, nearly bought an ID19 but passed due to rust.
I came VERY close to buying an SM, too-a great car in all respects, it was only a few years old at the time. What a lovely car to drive.
We passed in a passing fit of practicality.
I drove a Maserati Merak with the same engine. Seemed a bit quicker...
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I should rephrase that "no sympathy" part. I think this guy just got in over his head bidding on something he knew nothing about. I don't think he was swindled.
-AJ
You may be right, but this is the part that makes me think he was swindled.
"Yup, body filler was used to fix the tow hook to the undertray. "
If that's true, then this isn't just a worn-out project; this seller is absolutely a scammer, unless someone can tell me a good reason why anyone would do that other than to fool a buyer?
Lannis
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Lannis,
I think you have exposed the dark side of this auction platform. Dishonest sellers occasionally auction vehicle on BaT. This isn’t the first instance, and probably won’t be the last. Caveat Emptor.
You may be right, but this is the part that makes me think he was swindled.
"Yup, body filler was used to fix the tow hook to the undertray. "
If that's true, then this isn't just a worn-out project; this seller is absolutely a scammer, unless someone can tell me a good reason why anyone would do that other than to fool a buyer?
Lannis
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Strangest dang car I ever drove or did make ready/PDI. 1970 I'm working at 16 years old at Foreign Cars Of Suffolk Huntington L.I.N.Y. Dealer had 3 partners. One drove Jag demos. Teddy G Alfas (even had a Montreal) & Walt a Rover 3500. We got 2 SM's and Walt got out of the Rover into the SM.
All I remember both were blue and had the goofiest under the hood I ever saw. This was an amazing dealership. Sold Jags, Alfas, Datsun ,Rover, Lancia,& Citroen. Could not have been to many SM's that got to the US. There's a lady FL. Airhead here in Brevard that drives another weird French hotrod a Citroen 2V? kind of a pickup thing with a camper shell. French cars and motorbikes are weird! :rolleyes:
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SM's..... what a vehicle to lust over! I live with them vicariously at the car shows they appear. I drowl and marvel at their uniqueness like people do at our Guzzi's. But I bid goodby and thank the owner(s) for bringing them, looking forward to a future visit.... all the while happy I walked away with my wallet intact from the experience.
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You know the Maserati Merak had I believe the same DOHC 2V / cyl. V6. A 90 degree V6. I do not believe it had/has balance shafts. What is all of the hoorah'ing over that 3 litre V6? It's not particularly fast... Does not turn my crank...
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Yes, same engine-the Merak wasn't a superfast car but it was delightful to drive.
Motorcycle content-the same designer did the Laverda V6
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I went to Hungary, one week before - hit the fan and most places were locked. (March)
Five pictures of the car and ticket in my pocket to Budapest.
With some local help, several glasses of Palinka and plenty of Chicken Paprikash, it turned out to be OK.
Getting the DS 21 here was another problem all together. It did eventually arrive few months later...
I spent all my childhood in a DS, my dad had one from 1962 to -86, when he passed away. (last one was a CX GTI)
So, I wanted to live again the memories ended up with this one.
I was 8 years old when I learned how to drive a car on my dads lap, on ice. Could not reach pedals, so he did pedals and I steered and gear shifted.
That's why this DS 21 Pallas is a 4-speed unlike most of them...
We also had a DS when I was a kid, but only for a couple years. Dad came to the realization that it wasn't really suitable to use as a family car for long trips, since it would be close to impossible to get any kind of service it it had a problem.
I seriously considered buying an SM that was in the Washington Post classifieds when I was 17, but I had saved for a drag boat and bought one of those instead. Man, the SM is a cool car, with the Maserati engine, excellent handling, and the usual Citroën features. It even has headlights that steer when you turn, but in the US the DOT forced them to convert it to fixed headlights because the superior standard ones hadn't been approved.
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You may be right, but this is the part that makes me think he was swindled.
"Yup, body filler was used to fix the tow hook to the undertray. "
If that's true, then this isn't just a worn-out project; this seller is absolutely a scammer, unless someone can tell me a good reason why anyone would do that other than to fool a buyer?
One possibility is so it looks good at car shows.
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One possibility is so it looks good at car shows.
That's true. But unless the seller's description includes "The Tow Hook is just Bondo'ed to the body so it looks good at car shows - the frame is too rusty to weld it on" then the seller is a liar and a fraud ... and for all the money that Bring A Trailer makes off of fees to assure "integrity" of the transaction, they ought to make sure that the buyer gets his money back if he wants it back.
Lannis
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If you follow the SM’s new owners story, (7 installments so far), you will see that there are many issues not disclosed, in addition to the “bondo” parts.
Yes, there was a lack of transparency from the seller of this SM. The new owner has maintain a great attitude about this, and is continuing to restore the car.
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If you follow the SM’s new owners story, (7 installments so far), you will see that there are many issues not disclosed, in addition to the “bondo” parts.
Yes, there was a lack of transparency from the seller of this SM. The new owner has maintain a great attitude about this, and is continuing to restore the car.
I'm glad he has a good attitude about it.
I had a 1973 MGB that was basically in good shape, the top, windows, instruments all worked, the engine, transmission, and overdrive were smooth and quiet. Drove it for many years, but the unibody rust finally got dangerous. The floor pans, inner castle sections, and rocker panels were rusted through, and the only thing holding the back end of the car to the front end were the transmission tunnel and the driveshaft. It got to where it was sagging so bad you couldn't close the door if you were sitting in it.
In retrospect, I really should have thrown about $5000 at a brand new unibody, bolted all my good parts onto it, and had a decent car that I might still be driving today. But I was done with it (as you do sometimes), so I sold it to the supervisor of the welding department at the factory where I worked for $300. He had a shop full of gas, MIG, TIG and who knows what all sort of welders at home, and he tucked into it.
A year later he gave up. There just wasn't enough good metal left to weld anything to, and he couldn't think of a way to lay 200 pounds of weld metal to make up for what had oxidized away and flaked off. The car got parted out.
I hope that our Citroen guy doesn't run up against that. It's possible, no matter how hard you try and how much you'd like to "git 'er done". And I hope that BaT, with their fees, guarantees, and massive selling prices, "lives and learns" from this, otherwise people will start to talk. Well, more people; we've already started.
Lannis
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“ And I hope that BaT, with their fees, guarantees, and massive selling prices, "lives and learns" from this, otherwise people will start to talk. “
Lannis,
What are the “guarantees” that are offered by BaT ?
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actually in europe the SM would sell at double the price , so if he wants to recoup his money , simply sending it over would do the trick...
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“ And I hope that BaT, with their fees, guarantees, and massive selling prices, "lives and learns" from this, otherwise people will start to talk. “
Lannis,
What are the “guarantees” that are offered by BaT ?
Whatever it is that makes people pay the fees they charge, causes them to reject nice but unworthy bikes, and then causes buyers to pay double the going price for the same bike on other sales or auction sites. Whether the assurance of a quality buying experience is express or implied, people don't pay out a lot of extra money for nothing. Well, sometimes they do for a while, but not for long!
Lannis
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Well, I don’t think that BaT “guarantees” anything, implied, or expressed.
What they do, do, is bring a large, worldwide audience, that sometimes show that dumb people have lots of money to spend.
Whatever it is that makes people pay the fees they charge, causes them to reject nice but unworthy bikes, and then causes buyers to pay double the going price for the same bike on other sales or auction sites. Whether the assurance of a quality buying experience is express or implied, people don't pay out a lot of extra money for nothing. Well, sometimes they do for a while, but not for long!
Lannis
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Well, I don’t think that BaT “guarantees” anything, implied, or expressed.
What they do, do, is bring a large, worldwide audience, that sometimes show that dumb people have lots of money to spend.
If trusting that a fellow motoring enthusiast is telling the truth about what he's selling, and hasn't filled the radiator with oatmeal, the differential with sawdust, and glued the bumpers on with bubble gum, THEN takes your money and laughs about it ...
... then I'm afraid that I've qualified as "dumb" at times.
Lannis
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If you follow the SM’s new owners story, (7 installments so far),
I'm glad that was mentioned.......... .
https://bringatrailer.com/member/crosslepdx/
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Coincidentally, this photo popped up in a story from my motorbike and car owners' association that I read today
Does anyone here recognise this man?
I must admit I was admit I was a bit surprised that he drove this car and not a Lambo or Ferrari, but then again it was known to be the most comfortable car in the world, to drive yourself.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50577863042_7a81582566_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k4oLzq) (https://flic.kr/p/2k4oLzq)
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Coincidentally, this photo popped up in a story from my motorbike and car owners' association that I read today
Does anyone here recognise this man?
I must admit I was admit I was a bit surprised that he drove this car and not a Lambo or Ferrari, but then again it was known to be the most comfortable car in the world, to drive yourself.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50577863042_7a81582566_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k4oLzq)
(https://flic.kr/p/2k4oLzq)
Awfully young man to be normally driving a Ferrari, so I'd have to guess a European film star or someone with his own family money .... ?
Lannis
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Awfully young man to be normally driving a Ferrari, so I'd have to guess a European film star or someone with his own family money .... ?
Lannis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruyff
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruyff
Creative, individualistic, stubborn, both Citroën and Cruyff?
If nothing else, they've both brought beauty and joy into the world!
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Along with Cruyff, another notable person that has owned a SM, would be Bill Wyman, of the Rolling Stones. I believe his SM and Aston Martin Lagonda were auctioned off a few years ago.obvioulsy, a man of acquired taste.
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^ oh, obviously!
I'm certain Bill Wyman has excellent taste in girls, too! :grin: