Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SLDMRossi on December 14, 2020, 09:41:27 AM
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1. Why detuned? Because the engine's been taken out of the V85 and placed into the lesser V7 platform. So single front disc brake, etc.
2. What's the price? Not included in official announcement (see below)...
Full photo package, here:
https://we.tl/t-jayjk3U3nM
NEW MOTO GUZZI V7
AFTER YEARS OF SUCCESS, A NEW V7 IS BORN
THE NEW, HIGH-PERFORMANCE, 850CC, 65 HP ENGINE MAKES ITS DEBUT
2021 V7 IS FASTER, MORE COMFORTABLE, BETTER EQUIPPED AND REFINED, MAINTAINING ALL THE CHARACTER AND AUTHENTICITY THAT EVERY MOTO GUZZI BOASTS
More than fifty years after the launch of its first unit, Moto Guzzi is proud to present a new and important evolution in the history of the V7, a prominent symbol of Italian motorbikes around the world.
The revamping is so profound that the progressive numbering in Roman numerals, which had characterized the various evolutions of the model since its return to the market in 2007, is gone. But the character and authenticity remain intact, as these values are destined to last over time and embedded in the genetic code of every Moto Guzzi.
Two versions are available: the patriarch, V7 Stone, with its strong and minimalistic style, is joined by the V7 Special, with its classic and elegant lines.
A new Moto Guzzi engine makes its début on the new V7, a close derivative of the one that powers the V85 TT. This is the most recent and modern drive built in Mandello, which guarantees better performance and overall greater efficiency in order to provide maximum riding pleasure, fun and reliability.
It has 25% more maximum power, going from the previous 52 hp at 6,200 rpm to the current 65 hp at 6,800 rpm. Maximum torque has also increased significantly, going from 60 Nm at 4250 rpm to the outstanding value of 73 Nm at 5,000 rpm, with more than 80% of the torque already available at 3,000 rpm.
Compared to the previous version, the new addition from Mandello is generally more complete in terms of equipment and demonstrates superior maturity, also evident in the aesthetic impact of the larger engine, which stands out for its generously sized exhaust pipes in a different layout; the view from the rear highlights the larger cardan final drive and the wider rear wheel, as well as the more robust pair of Kayaba shock absorbers.
The stylish side panels are new, as is the shorter rear mudguard, elements which, along with the new exhaust system, give the new 'eight and a half' a revamped and more seductive look.
Many new features have been introduced to improve stability and comfort, leaving the proverbial handling of the Moto Guzzi best-seller unaltered.
The frame has been evolved with the addition of steel elements in the headstock area, whereas the new pair of shock absorbers with greater travel and the new, two-tier saddle ensure greater comfort. With this same goal in mind, brand new rider foot peg supports are used.
Moto Guzzi V7 Stone has the new, full LED light system with the headlight that includes a DRL in the shape of the Moto Guzzi Eagle, whereas the new instrument cluster is perfectly in line with the look of a minimalist motorcycle, entirely digital on a single, circular dial. The aluminum wheels, in the sporty style that equips the Stone, are also new; the rear rim is shod with a wider 150/70 tire.
V7 Special maintains the elegant, dual dial analogue instrument cluster (speedometer and rev counter) and the ultra-classic spoked wheels.
V7 Stone is available in three satin-finish color schemes: Nero Ruvido, Azzurro Ghiaccio and Arancione Rame. The color variants of the V7 Special, the version closes to the classic and elegant spirit of the original model, are Blu Formale and Grigio Casual.
Steven Rossi
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My GUESS is it was detuned not for emissions but for position in the market.
The V85 is currently (and I am betting will remain) more expensive than the V7 (since that's their "entry" level bike, especially in Stone trim. So it's just plain and simple marketing 101 to not give the V7 as much power if it costs less.
I don't think they are going to raise the price of the V7 significantly because it's priced to the market and has pressures to face in terms of what Triumph and other brands are selling for at that point.
But it's my guess and I could be wrong.
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I'll be very surprised if there is more than a slight bump in MSRP with RE having such a strong impact on this segment. At least here in the States.
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One could assume it will slot in where the V9 was ... $9,990. But unlike the Roamer, I wouldn't expect to see any discounting. Particularly with that 100th Anniversary graphic on the front fender!
SR
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They squeezed 77-78ps at the cranckshaft out of the 85tt, enough to write "80" in the datasheet, because otherwise they would not have sold te bike in that segment, but at at the expense of the low RPM torque.
In the V7 850 they'll aim more to a good delivery of power at any range (and that probably requires at least a different camshaft). It's an entry level after all. It has to be easy to drive.
It has to be said that the announced max power is even too detuned for that. 70ps would have probably been a better compromise.
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I don't know if they will continue to produce the V9 line.
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One could assume it will slot in where the V9 was ... $9,990. But unlike the Roamer, I wouldn't expect to see any discounting. Particularly with that 100th Anniversary graphic on the front fender!
SR
Found this in RiderMag
"The 2021 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone has an MSRP of $8,990 and is available in three colors: Nero Ruvido, Azzurro Ghiaccio and Arancione Rame. The classic feel of the 2021 Moto Guzzi V7 Special comes at a $500 premium, with an MSRP of $9,499 and features two colors: Blu Formale and Grigio Casual. Both models are expected to arrive in North American dealerships in March 2021."
https://ridermagazine.com/2020/12/14/2021-moto-guzzi-v7-special-and-stone-announced/
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Isn't it funny that folks like RIDER aren't mentioning that these are 100th Anniversary editions? Despite that fact that there's a celebratory graphic on the front fender...
SR
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Isn't it funny that folks like RIDER aren't mentioning that these are 100th Anniversary editions? Despite that fact that there's a celebratory graphic on the front fender...
SR
Mmm. They just going to stick a sticker on every 2021 bike and call it an anniversary bike? Sorry, but that is kinda lame. Come on Moto Guzzi, give us a truly special anniversary bike.
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Mmm. They just going to stick a sticker on every 2021 bike and call it an anniversary bike? Sorry, but that is kinda lame. Come on Moto Guzzi, give us a truly special anniversary bike.
Yep.
Upside down forks and twin front discs option.
Gloss red.
Less black everywhere, it looks drab.
No digital clocks.
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The V85 is currently (and I am betting will remain) more expensive than the V7 (since that's their "entry" level bike, especially in Stone trim. So it's just plain and simple marketing 101 to not give the V7 as much power if it costs less.
This! Similar to how for the longest time you couldn’t get a Camaro that was more powerful than a Vette. Trim levels being equal.
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I don't know if they will continue to produce the V9 line.
Guzzi could keep it as their small cruiser line but given the sales numbers it's probably not going to last much longer. There are still 2017 leftovers for sale at several dealers. Too bad really as the Bobber - especially in Sport trim - is a decent bike.
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More importantly what about the V twin thump!! The V7 has some but none in the V85 engine. I hope they didn't make a boring Honda out of the V7!
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I doubt that the 850 V7 has any less power than the other versions. I'd think they're the same mechanically. Perhaps a different ECU tune. None of the new 850 Guzzis are going to scotch the pavement.
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More importantly what about the V twin thump!! The V7 has some but none in the V85 engine. I hope they didn't make a boring Honda out of the V7!
Interesting! I didn't know that about the V85. That would be a shame, although for the new owner likely worth the trade-off in powah!
As for me and the new V7III I bought last year, zero regrets. I'll own a second bike some day to scratch the next itch. I wouldn't want any more out of the 750, and love the cheap insurance!
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I can see them making a parts bin full power version for next year.
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More importantly what about the V twin thump!! The V7 has some but none in the V85 engine. I hope they didn't make a boring Honda out of the V7!
That was the biggest criticism I gave to the salesman when I test rode the V85TT—“I mean, it SOUNDS like a Guzzi, but it doesn’t FEEL like one :( “
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Haven't ridden a v85, but the v9 has the stuff!
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Feel is more important than bench race numbers 10 out of 10 times.
It's beyond amusing that the "best" bikes have so much power that they need all sorts of controlling electronic aids to ride them.
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Here is my opinion on the question about why detuned.
A few years ago Triumph bought out a new engine for the Bonneville. Each year the bike has been getting changed a little bit here and there. I saw an add the other day that the 2021 model will have the engine retuned for more power. I don't think the engineers have just worked out how to get the extra few kilowatts that have been in hiding.
So the cynic in me feels that they will advertise the engine has been detuned for some marketing reason. In a couple of years they will bring out a new model with the full power. Maybe a few years latter they will find a few extra kilowatts that they forgot to mention.
In short it is all about marketing, next years model has to be better, some will buy this because of the 100 years or the first of this type. Some will by the improved 2022 with duel helmet locks and auto heated grips, than in 2023 we get the full power.
Steve
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+1
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Here is my opinion on the question about why detuned.
A few years ago Triumph bought out a new engine for the Bonneville. Each year the bike has been getting changed a little bit here and there. I saw an add the other day that the 2021 model will have the engine retuned for more power. I don't think the engineers have just worked out how to get the extra few kilowatts that have been in hiding.
So the cynic in me feels that they will advertise the engine has been detuned for some marketing reason. In a couple of years they will bring out a new model with the full power. Maybe a few years latter they will find a few extra kilowatts that they forgot to mention.
In short it is all about marketing, next years model has to be better, some will buy this because of the 100 years or the first of this type. Some will by the improved 2022 with duel helmet locks and auto heated grips, than in 2023 we get the full power.
Steve
I semi agree.. I dont think its just under rated.. But I do feel they didnt feel too bad about retuning it, and getting less then the v85.. I mean, when and if they bring out a more sporting one, the extra power has to come from somewhere...
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Guzzi always goes their own way, - often stepping on their on toes or missing an opportunity. The general motorcycling public is left to puzzle, if they care at all. Owners and fanatics turn our same old frustrations into another oil thread. R3~
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Where's "Dave Richardson" when you need him.....??? The Kid
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That was the biggest criticism I gave to the salesman when I test rode the V85TT—“I mean, it SOUNDS like a Guzzi, but it doesn’t FEEL like one :( “
Kind of how I've felt the 3-4 times I've ridden small block Guzzis. Just doesn't make me want to break out the checkbook.
Bob
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Adding 5 pounds to the flywheel might be the way to detune it and give it some thump.
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I doubt that the 850 V7 has any less power than the other versions. I'd think they're the same mechanically. Perhaps a different ECU tune. None of the new 850 Guzzis are going to scotch the pavement.
I am reading hope in this post. :undecided: If that is true, then Beetle will be able to unleash the power. :grin:
Based on my enthusiasm for all motorcycles and following all brands as they come up with new models, I believe they went with a different Cam to provide the power where more V7 riders would use it which is on surface roads instead of off road, or interstates. Because the changed the cam the torque tapers off sooner and since HP = torque x RPMs the peak HP is lower.
For riders using this bike the way it was designed it will probably feel more seat of the pants pull than the V85TT configuration.
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Kind of how I've felt the 3-4 times I've ridden small block Guzzis. Just doesn't make me want to break out the checkbook.
Bob
His comment was specific to the higher revving new engine in the V85TT, not all V7’s.
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I am reading hope in this post. :undecided: If that is true, then Beetle will be able to unleash the power. :grin:
Based on my enthusiasm for all motorcycles and following all brands as they come up with new models, I believe they went with a different Cam to provide the power where more V7 riders would use it which is on surface roads instead of off road, or interstates. Because the changed the cam the torque tapers off sooner and since HP = torque x RPMs the peak HP is lower.
For riders using this bike the way it was designed it will probably feel more seat of the pants pull than the V85TT configuration.
Pete was speculating that the difference MIGHT just be ECU/Throttle Body - because the V85 uses the 7SM and a LARGER BORE THROTTLE BODY, while the V7 line uses the MUIG with a smaller bore throttle body.
Sadly that throttle bore might be the limiting factor then.
And the photos seem to show throttle cables which suggests they are not using the 7SM ECU and separate RBW throttle body.
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Do you really think the V7 850 has less power than the TT?
Or are both models detuned to meet Euro 5?
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Do you really think the V7 850 has less power than the TT?
Well, the initial CLAIM is for less crankshaft hp than the V7TT currently makes at the rear wheel.
Or are both models detuned to meet Euro 5?
That remains to be seen but I don't know why so many are assuming it needed to be detuned to meet EU5. I mean they knew EU5 was right around the corner and I would have thought they would have addressed it when developing the V85 in the first place.
But we'll know when we know.
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I would think the V7 motor was "detuned" much in the same way that Yamaha detuned the motor from the R1 and R6 to put in their FZ1 and FZ6 bikes which were more standard bikes versus race crotch rocket style, and what Kawasaki did with the Concours 1000 and 1400 cc bikes.
Less overall power, and moving torque and horsepower peak lower in the rev range. This would keep the power band more in keeping with the V7 versus the v85.
As Kev said it could also be related to what throttle body they use. If they use the same throttle body and ECU from the v85, or they kept the same throttle body and ECU from the outgoing V7.
complete speculation on my part but I'm thinking that if the new V7 has Rider modes and cruise control and the other features made available by the Ride by throttle system in the v85, you would see those features advertised in the marketing materials. As the only thing mentioned is traction control, I'm going to say that the new V7 likely has the throttle by cable, throttle body and ECU from the outgoing v7. That would account for a loss and power as I think the v85 throttle body is 52 mm and the V7 throttle body is 33 (or close to).
We'll find out one way or another.
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9,450 and cruise control too. sign me up. i don't need another bike, but that would be hard to resist.
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I'll go back to the beginning. It's been detuned because it's in the V7 architecture. Moto Guzzi even mentions that they had to beef-up the V7 headstock in their Announcement to accept the engine. And again, the V7 also rides on a single, front disc brake...instead of two...like the TT.
SR
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More importantly what about the V twin thump!! The V7 has some but none in the V85 engine. I hope they didn't make a boring Honda out of the V7!
Hey now, I ride an Africa Twin as well and luckily it’s not boring. :thumb:
inditx
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That was the biggest criticism I gave to the salesman when I test rode the V85TT—“I mean, it SOUNDS like a Guzzi, but it doesn’t FEEL like one :( “
:thumb: I agree and I wanted to want one.
inditx
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I wonder if it is really esentially a v9 frame. If you go and read up on the v9, they apparently did the same thing. From what I can see, it's the same beefed up rear drive, and the same strengthend head. It makes sense, why would they not?
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I wonder if it is really esentially a v9 frame. If you go and read up on the v9, they apparently did the same thing. From what I can see, it's the same beefed up rear drive, and the same strengthend head. It makes sense, why would they not?
When the V9 was made, one change they made to the small block frame was dropping the rear fender mounting bars parallel with the ground. The frame for the new V7 850 still has the angled extensions as the V7. Maybe we have yet another slightly modified small block frame? Lovely.
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Moto Guzzi wouldn't make...and Certify/Homologate...another (detuned) V85 engine variant if they didn't have to. They'd just go with the TT version...
FYI:
V7 Special Wheelbase = 1445 mm
V9 Roamer Wheelbase = 1465 mm
V7 Special Weight = 193 kg
V9 Roamer Weight = 204 kg
SR
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P.S.
V85 TT Wheelbase = 1530 mm
V85 TT Weight = 229 - 240 kg
SR
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Everything I have says the Roamer dry weight is 199kg & curb weight 210kg.
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Everything I have says the Roamer dry weight is 199kg & curb weight 210kg.
There has been conflicting info on MG's website and certain press releases.
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I have been looking at pictures of the new V7 850.
When you look at the cylinder head cover you can see it is different from the V85TT.
Also the way the engine mounts to the frame is different.
I think the reason that the V7850 has 65 HP versus the 80 HP of the TT may be that the new V7 has a warmed up V9 Bobber/Roamer engine, not a V85TT engine and consequently doesn’t have the roller cam followers.
The roller followers are a significant update for these engines.
So using the V9;engine they couldn’t use a better camshaft profile and valve gear.
Just another cost cutting shortcut by Piaggio.
A rehashed frame first used in the 70s and a cheaper engine.
The same harsh suspension and still a single disc.
This bike was going to be my 70th birthday present but now I’m not so sure.
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You guys really believe the single front disc is an issue, because of a few KWs more?
The V7 III stops just fine with it's single disc.
But on the other hand, the V7 850 might me considerably heavier too...?
Bigger engine, rear wheel, shaft, Shocks...?
Cheers,
D.
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I have been looking at pictures of the new V7 850.
When you look at the cylinder head cover you can see it is different from the V85TT.
Also the way the engine mounts to the frame is different.
I think the reason that the V7850 has 65 HP versus the 80 HP of the TT is that the new V7 has a warmed up V9 Bobber/Roamer engine, not a V85TT engine and consequently doesn’t have the roller cam followers.
The roller followers are a significant update for these engines.
So using the V9;engine they couldn’t use a better camshaft profile and valve gear.
Just another cost cutting shortcut by Piaggio.
A rehashed frame first used in the 70s and a cheaper engine.
The same harsh suspension and still a single disc.
This bike was going to be my 70th birthday present but now I’m not so sure.
No, Sir! It is a V85 engine. Probably the inner workings were made a bit simpler and not so high-quality materials were used to lower the price for the V7.
Viao
Lars
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The same harsh suspension and still a single disc.
This bike was going to be my 70th birthday present but now I’m not so sure.
I found the suspension to be to soft, not harsh. Suspension is easily upgraded to fit your wants.
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Might just as well give up on the V9 engine. It was just a stop-gap to plug a hole until the V85 could be designed. there is no doubt the V85 engine gets to the end of the assembly line at a lower cost than the old small blocks. Fewer parts, less machining, less drilled and tapped holes (read self-tapping screws), etc. The V7 version most likely will just be a fuel injection, computer, and possibly cheaper piston. For the V85 to have the power # they hit it took $$$. They won't spend it on a V7 version at these prices.
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According to press releases in Germany and Switzerland the V9 also will get the new engine soon. That makes sense as producing only one basic engine is cheaper. And the transmission of the new V7 also seems to be derived from the V85TT.
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Taking them at their word the press release says it's based on the V85 motor though to sing extent we can get into circular logic since the V85 and V9 are both evolutions of the smallblock V7.
The frame is obviously closer to the V9 then V85 because that's the chassis is the V7 in the first place. The differences in mounting but common use of the engine block is why there is an unused hole in the middle of the V85 block where it would have an engine mount on a V7/9.
I think the bigger evidence of which is the closer relative comes from the peak hp/torque numbers and more importantly WHERE they occur. I think that suggests the V85 might be a closer relative mechanically, though the V7/9 is closer in terms of frame/chassis and I expect throttle body/ecu.
On the single disc, it's not a "must" have (remember the Jackal and Stone Cali's had a single disc when the Bassai/EV etc) had duals. It's a wish/want that the argument for which gets stronger with more weight and power.
Personally I prefer the feel and look and long life and complete lack of fade worry they duals offer and would prefer them on both of my current V7s. When I hop of the Stone or Dark and hop on the 696 the different in braking is tremendous.
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No, Sir! It is a V85 engine. Probably the inner workings were made a bit simpler and not so high-quality materials were used to lower the price for the V7.
Viao
Lars
I’m very happy to have my theory proved wrong.
Has anyone seen a parts book for the new bikes?
I have a V711 and have just completed a good 5 day trip with it.
They are great bikes and I hoped the update would be a bit more sophisticated.
I guess that an 80hp V7 with a bit more upmarket frame and running gear will come at some stage.
Cheers, voncrump.
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I have just been looking at some images of the new V7.
It seems to have the same cases as the TT.
This would mean it has roller followers.
So it just might be back on my birthday list.
Cheers voncrump
(https://i.ibb.co/zQ2hysQ/89-A8855-C-0-F69-4-FD6-A15-F-FE7684910-D69.png) (https://ibb.co/zQ2hysQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/d6JVX0g/6-F9-E665-C-A144-4-C2-A-95-EA-924623-E7-F174.png) (https://ibb.co/d6JVX0g)
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First of all, Hamlin has THE answer for front braking. he has a mod that will outperform any OEM two disk system. And it's not that dear. No extra unsprung weight either. Are you on the track-with a V7-for anything other than fun or training?
And if you're waiting for a "perfect" bike you'll wait forever. If it's not want you want, make it that way. I mean, look at the V7. It'll lose every bench race worldwide, but lots of folks ride them and love them. Come on, man.
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I have little confidence in the stated power figures. This is because power is listed as horsepower and torque is listed in newton meters. https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/new-moto-guzzi-v7/
It should be horsepower, foot pounds or kilowatts, newton meters. I think they have selected these numbers as HP is bigger than KW when converted and newton meter is bigger than foot pounds. I have also noticed that some of the online articles have horsepower, foot pounds but did not convert the number. If the person stating power figures does not understand that there are two different measuring systems I have low confidence in the data.
I would like to see the two bikes on the same dyno. It would be interesting to see if the V7 has higher torque numbers than the V85 lower down in the rev range. If it does it would make it a better all-round road bike.
Steve
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I have little confidence in the stated power figures. This is because power is listed as horsepower and torque is listed in newton meters. https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/new-moto-guzzi-v7/
It should be horsepower, foot pounds or kilowatts, newton meters. I think they have selected these numbers as HP is bigger than KW when converted and newton meter is bigger than foot pounds. I have also noticed that some of the online articles have horsepower, foot pounds but did not convert the number. If the person stating power figures does not understand that there are two different measuring systems I have low confidence in the data.
I really think you're overthinking it.
The quote the correct (by spec) previous model's crankshaft hp rating and draw a comparison to the new one.
Why chose hp? Who knows, marketing? Woooing a particular audience. Meh.
New Moto Guzzi engine
It has 25% more maximum power, going from the previous 52 hp at 6200 rpm to the current 65 hp at 6800 rpm. Maximum torque has also increased significantly, going from 60 Nm at 4250 rpm to the outstanding value of 73 Nm at 5000 rpm, with more than 80% of the torque already available at 3000 rpm.
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I have little confidence in the stated power figures. This is because power is listed as horsepower and torque is listed in newton meters. https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/new-moto-guzzi-v7/
It should be horsepower, foot pounds or kilowatts, newton meters. I think they have selected these numbers as HP is bigger than KW when converted and newton meter is bigger than foot pounds. I have also noticed that some of the online articles have horsepower, foot pounds but did not convert the number. If the person stating power figures does not understand that there are two different measuring systems I have low confidence in the data.
I would like to see the two bikes on the same dyno. It would be interesting to see if the V7 has higher torque numbers than the V85 lower down in the rev range. If it does it would make it a better all-round road bike.
Steve
Its just a simple thing called marketing because most consumers are consumed with power figures and most consumers have short attention spans and when they see the numbers they don't pay attention to anything else.
How a bike feels is so much more important than the numbers unless you need the numbers to compare how long yours is with other guys. Err, I mean how powerful yours is. :tongue:
Test rides sell bikes.